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First Speaker

(4,858 posts)
Sun Jan 7, 2018, 11:20 PM Jan 2018

The difference between Weimar Germany and today's USA is one of degree, not kind...

Last edited Mon Jan 8, 2018, 02:24 AM - Edit history (1)

...and it has taken me a *long* time to reach that conclusion. I've heard Weimar analogies my whole life, especially in the turmoil of the late 60s-early 70s, and again under Dubya. I always dismissed them out of hand. Germany was an autocracy until 1918, had lost a war, had inflation and depression and an unstable, unpopular democratic regime. It was ripe for the plucking by a demagogue. We, on the other hand...well, *we* were The Good Guys, the country that destroyed slavery, won two world wars against tyranny and a cold war against another one, we gave civil rights to the dispossessed, went to the Moon, were the leaders of the Free World. Etc, etc, etc...
But. Germany was the most civilized country in Europe, right to the moment of Hitler's accession--even, maybe especially, in the Imperial era. It had a tradition of respect for constitutionalism. It was moving slowly but surely towards a parliamentary system in the years before 1914, and even during the War, the Reichstag was able to get its way against the generals if it put its foot down. As for America...yes, we destroyed slavery. After our Constitution, for 72 years, had enshrined it, and the pro-slavery forces had pretty much total control of the government. And it took 600,000 lives to change this. Then we had slavery in all but name for another 100 years, and it was only in the wake of a national emergency--the JFK assassination--that Congress finally ended Jim Crow.
Indeed. Congress. For the vast majority of its history, it has, as an institution, essentially functioned as a cover for the worst impulses of our national life. Slavery, Jim Crow, militarism, plutocracy. Only great disasters--the Civil War and its aftermath, the Depression, World War Two, and the Civil Rights movement and the JFK murder--only these have ever made it do anything approaching the right thing. For the most part, it's been a useless weight on the American people. The Supreme Court has been similar, regarding its job as defending slavery and plutocracy.
In short, American democracy has always been weaker than we may have imagined. Even forgetting the Civil War, look at the elections of 1876 and 1896, the Banker's Plot against Roosevelt, the Cold War pressures, culminating in the assassination of JFK...or so I believe. (See *JFK and the Unspeakable*, by James Douglass, for a good argument of this position.) Look at the GOP in the elections of 1968, 1980, 2000. The Republican party today does not believe in democracy. Which is why I'm not too reassured by all the talk of "2018" or "2020". Any temporary advance of ours won't be met with the Republicans breaking their fever and "compromising". It will simply make them more and more extreme. By 2030, they will openly and explicitly assault the very idea of free elections and racial (and gender) equality. Trump is really a distraction. His party, which has sold its soul to him, is the real problem. Yes, I shall work for Dem candidates. I've been doing so my whole life, and I shall continue. But I'm more and more afraid that the Democratic Party will go down the same path the Social Democrats did in 1933...

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The difference between Weimar Germany and today's USA is one of degree, not kind... (Original Post) First Speaker Jan 2018 OP
The most civilized country in Europe? DavidDvorkin Jan 2018 #1
That jumped out for me too oberliner Jan 2018 #3
See Peter Watson's book, *The German Genius*... First Speaker Jan 2018 #4
Im afraid this is all too true. mountain grammy Jan 2018 #2
Comparisons California_Republic Jan 2018 #5
It is worth examining particular analogies to Weimar and its collapse, struggle4progress Jan 2018 #6
Thank god somebody knows history.. pbmus Jan 2018 #7
Sorry, I don't buy into the comparison. Kentonio Jan 2018 #8

First Speaker

(4,858 posts)
4. See Peter Watson's book, *The German Genius*...
Sun Jan 7, 2018, 11:32 PM
Jan 2018

...Germany's universities were the envy of the world, its educational system was copied everywhere--including the US--its music, literature, architecture, were admired everywhere. Its scientists won more Nobel Prizes than any other country, by far. I think the claim is justified...

California_Republic

(1,826 posts)
5. Comparisons
Sun Jan 7, 2018, 11:36 PM
Jan 2018

First speaker,

I see some slight differences in our unified states. Can you comment of the separation of State powers such as a strong and Democratic controlled states like California and New York with their independent governments and legal systems.

Thanks

struggle4progress

(118,379 posts)
6. It is worth examining particular analogies to Weimar and its collapse,
Mon Jan 8, 2018, 12:16 AM
Jan 2018

in order to study particular political methods, but the analogy should not be stretched too thin

The US is not Weimar, although our current crisis might ultimately be as dangerous as the crisis of Weimar proved to be

The German empire lasted less than fifty years, from unification in 1871 to the end of the Great War in 1918; Weimar, born in revolution, and held together by unavoidably awkward compromises, lasted about fourteen; and the succeeding Reich only twelve. The empire was really nothing like a democracy, with its elected parliament having only an advisory role, and with various locales admitting only weighted voting systems which provided impossible-to-defeat advantages to the powers-that-be. The Republic that followed was torn by international pressures from the War and by the internal political results of events such as the occupation of the Ruhr by France and Belgium, as well as constant rightwing violence and the irreparable split between the SPD and KPD



 

Kentonio

(4,377 posts)
8. Sorry, I don't buy into the comparison.
Mon Jan 8, 2018, 05:35 AM
Jan 2018

Weimar was an extremely unique set of circumstances that don't really stand up to a modern comparison. German people at the time just didn't have the background in democracy that made an autocratic leader unthinkable. To them there was much less of a cultural shock to the idea of installing an autocratic leader when they had spent most of their lives living under various versions of the same.

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