Democratic. Though it is definitely always good to have converts from the R party or any other party. I think the issue may have been that there have been quite a few disruptors in the past who pretended to be converts or folks outright faking it that PTSD sometimes kicks in. Not making excuses. I was not part of the original discussion just trying to figure out what happened. Most DU members appear to have relatively decent intentions and discernment.

and positions.

She did identify herself as an Unaffiliated voter who votes Democratic, with only one exception which she said she regretted.

There is a lot to be said for exciting our Democratic base and increasing turnout among registered Democrats. It's probably the best winning strategy.

But there is a huge swath of the electorate who are unaffiliated and we are shooting ourselves in our collective foot if we don't make an effort to appeal to them as well.

It is hard for us to understand the values of someone who doesn't value equity and social justice. But there are people for whom that doesn't resonate as much as honor, integrity, keeping our word. She suggested that when we defend Dreamers, we talk about keeping our word to them.

Hey, I am a strong environmentalist who doesn't need any persuading when it comes to protecting our national parks. But for some voters who aren't hardcore Democrats, they might respond better to a message about protecting our heritage, not protecting the environment. (I saw a TED talk about that; it's not an original thought.)

There are some people with whom we are going to find very little common ground, and we shouldn't sacrifice our principles for them. But there are others who might not agree with our reasoning, but can come to the same conclusion through a different path. Why wouldn't we want to persuade them?

when George W Bush was installed by the United Supreme Cowards as President. I joined at that time. Lost my internet provider and had to sign back up. Are you an Admin? Convincing others to become Democrats is fine but the Democratic Underground is also for discussion of issues that impact Democrats. It is more than just a tool to sign up people to vote for Democratic candidates. I hope you are working with your local Dem reps to register voters. All politics is local.
I know what this forum is for. Unless it's mission has changed.

and have run for office myself.

myself. But at the time it was not possible for person family issues. Now I'm past the age to be effective. We need young blood.

I remember reading that thread and thinking 'boy this is a way to chase off those we could convince.'

careful.

Her posts were reasoned, sincere and thoughtful. I understand there have been lots of impostors and troublemakers but there is a difference between being careful and overreacting to constructive criticism and strategy debates.

That is my opinion. I don't care for non-Dems lecturing us on how to attract voters like...Her. I just didn't buy her schtick. I still say she was a troll.

ounterproductive to winning elections for one thing, and wrong for another. There are millions who are unaffiliated voters who Dems can win, as VA and Alabama showed. They didn't fit into your narrow box. There is nothing you can point to in her posts that deserve that description. Putting people in a box and uncritical thinking is the province of the trumpians.

Any person who did not vote for Clinton can fuck off. If you are unaffiliated now...you are either a Trumpian or a Stein bot...Sen Sanders caucuses with Democrats...thus he is not unaffiliated.

Democrats need to do...blah blah. I still think she was a rightie disruper.

If she had started of with the post put up by femmedem, I think things may have gone a lot smoother.

I do agree that there are some members here that see any critique of Democratic strategy, tactics, politicians, etc... as a direct affront to everything they hold dear. There is a great deal of over reaction when people are trying to have a discussion.

The problem with Prue's post was that she came in from the outside telling people who are loyal Democrats, what they should be doing to win over people who either don't agree or don't care enough to vote.

The internet is not a forgiving space. Writing as communication is very tricky because there are no other signals being sent. While smileys and emoticons can transmit a bit more, there is no tone, body language, or other signifiers to accentuate or mute the words.

I am sure that Prue meant well, and it is not great that people reacted so vehemently. People need to choose their words carefully sometimes, especially as new members. I joined the site in 2007-2008, I seem to remember that people would introduce themselves and let people get to know them. I also remember that there was something about having 100 posts or something like that before you could access other forums, but I may be misremembering as I have been on a lot of forums.

There is only one singular thing that needs to be done.

The Retrumplicans and Donnie Short Fingers MUST BE STOPPED!!

That's it...period!!!

I for one, don't think we have the time to waste talking about what Democrats are doing wrong. There should be laser focus on defeating Retrumplicans.

Sometimes, when the barbarians are at the gates, you don't discuss how they got there... you don't debate how you could have kept them away... you don't fight those within your walls.

You just fight the fuck back to save what you cherish.

You think that the Republicans just all of a sudden came up with the tools they used to install Trump into the White House?

They spent decades in the wilderness trying to figure out how to sell their garbage message, and their policies which really only help the richest few among us. They focus grouped words, they figured out unethical and at times illegal ways to tamper with elections.

I am not saying that we need to spend decades figuring out strategy, but we do need to realize mistakes we may be making and try to figure out a way to have the best message and policies.

Besides, my post was not even addressing any problems with the Democratic message, it was actually addressing the nature of Prue's post which was calling out Democrats on messaging.

We simply don't have the power to make such promises.Schumer should have said that explicitly. I suppose he figured people would understand that when they don't support Democrats and allow GOP 'evildoers' to take every branch of government, there is only so much Democrats can do to protect the stupid (those who didn't vote Democratic) and folks like Dreamers who couldn't vote from the consequences of a Trump presidency combined with a Republican congress. We will have another go in two weeks but honestly, I don't think it will work. And then as Schumer said the only thing we have left is that deporting a million young people to places they can't remember will not play well with the public.If the public yawns and shrugs, then it is over.

All these unaffiliated voters are part of the problem...They hold Democrats to a very high standard...really an impossible standard while giving the GOP a pass. The fact is Prue if you are reading this. There will never be perfection in politics. Democrats don't have the power because folks who look and sound much like you decided the 'parties' are the same. They are not. Those who didn't vote for Hillary Clinton and other Democrats are the reason Democrats can't help Dreamers. You play the progressive... just too good for the imperfect Democratic Party (unaffiliated) and then you think you should come here and advise us on our faults (how dare you;you are not a Democrat) Those who didn't support clinton in 16 have blood on their hands. Hell, I was delighted and surprised we got CHIP and have thus far saved the ACA. Our leaders have worked hard to spare us the worst the GOP has to offer...and mostly succeeded- better than I expected. So we have an election in a few months...if your folks don't see the need to vote Democratic than they are hopeless. The only party who can stop Trump is the Democratic Party so if you don't vote Democratic than you enable Trump and the GOP. No progressive should have to be 'coaxed'. If you truly want to help join the party and lend a hand otherwise...with all due respect (not really) , don't tell us what we need to do because seriously you have no credibility.

It's a good argument. I'm sure it's right. I'm sure Prue was/is right.

BUT:

Over a thousand, easily. And not all those doors I've knocked have been opened by Democrats.

In my city, Democrats outnumber Republicans 7:1. But they only outnumber unaffiliated voters 7:6. So here, at least, ignoring unaffiliated voters is a risky strategy for getting elected.

So I found her argument useful for canvassing, and for face-to-face or social media discussions. Why would DU not be set up to disseminate a potentially useful idea like that?

Btw: thank you for a polite disagreement!

I SAID it was fine as a meta-discussion. But I also personally don't want to have to reframe here, among ourselves. And I meant (I think you'll see this if you reread my post) that DU isn't set up to speak directly to those who need reframing in order to be convinced. We don't expect to get Trump voters here (except to try to crash the party, perhaps), so shouldn't have to worry about it.

Otherwise, just reads as a gbcw.

and offering us a chance to contemplate how we can more effectively advance progressive ideals.

I was not there, did not see her post or read the responses.

Can anyone post a link to the debacle?

The Dreamers were encouraged to "sign up" that is to provide their personal information in exchange for some sort of deal. Trump has broken the deal. So now we have close to 800,000 Dreamers to whom we made a promise, albeit just a promise by the Obama administration, but a promise on behalf of our nation, that we have now broken.

How can any country trust us when we have done this?

trump is ruining lives for everyone, you don't mess with people's lives like this, it does have consequences.

Referring to *us* as "them" and "they."

Are we not in this together?

And call me thin skinned but references to "framing" drives me crazy. As if there is only one correct way to look at issues.

I guess it's our messiness that appeals to me. We are the most diverse, complex and I would argue the most intelligent political party on earth. I don't want us to change to fit the GOP mold.

To say "us" would not have been appropriate.

The group-attack she experienced was a perfect example of "only one correct way to look at the issues". She came in with a suggestion/criticism and was attacked for having the nerve to express an alternative opinion as a low-count poster. The repeated "we're doing just fine, we don't need your help or opinions" support that.

but she has a thin skin?

Seems the folks who can't hear any criticism are the thin skinned ones to me.

That thread was ridiculous and riddled with thin skinned people. She stuck around and responded to a lot of them and most of the time with much more respect than she was given.

In my opinion the thin skin is entirely on the DU side.

decided to attack because they have been around longer. She was actually told to restrain herself for a while until she got to know the others here. Then she could offer an opinion.

And lots of doubling down in this thread.

for DACA being wrong, with 80% support in favor of it, and got very pissy when anyone challenged. Immediately started complaining about that. A disruptor.

and who was giving her thoughts about how the D's could appeal to more people -- without changing their policies, just their messaging -- was shut down.

And I think she might have been right about how to talk about DACA (and have also framed DACA to conservatives as a matter of keeping our solemn promise to these young people)

She is right that we are stifling creativity if we pounce on someone for daring to suggest a different strategy. An echo chamber is not a great model for a discussion board, unless we just want to express outrage and belittle Trump. Not that I don't enjoy those activities from time to time, but this place can be--used to be--more.

of shit. She came here to cause trouble and create division...I read the posts and beneath the poison pills she tried to plant about the Democratic Party had nothing to offer.

how many posts the poster has

about how many posts a poster has. But this thing with trolls and things like that we tend to be very overly careful, I guess we need to hear posters out before we jump on them. But then again, we need to be more open to new ideas. Just sayin.

And what was so original about that thought? And it was clearly wrong.

The majority likes to hear their ideas and no other. Get too far outside the accepted doctrine or fail to make the necessary obsequious gestures to doctrine and our dear leaders, and you get accused of being a troll or republican in disguise.

And there are real trolls. But people who are moderate Hillary supporting Dems get their posts hidden too. And some people do it too much. If they are always "helpfully" critical and never see anything good, call the main leaders corporatists and never have a good thing to say about them, it IS a bit suspicious.

I didn't get why she thought that was a bad thing. If there are Americans (most of whom descend from immigrants) who can happily contemplate taking someone who has lived here most of their life, knows no other home, considers themselves American, and is going to be ripped out of their home and sent to a place they know no one and can't remember, well, I don't think there are many of them, and they all voted rabidly for Trump.
Anyone with the capacity to sympathize (which is most people) can be swayed by the "appeal to sympathy" which is telling the stories of the Dreamers.

But heck, she's entitled to her opinion, and so is everyone who responded to her, including those who pointed out that "independents" have commitment-phobia.

wouldn't resonate for a significant group of people.

Why can't we talk about the issue from both perspectives? I do.

Elections can change things. It's pointless to point out it would be "honorable" for the Orange Idiot to follow through on Obama's "promise."

It's about honoring a countries promises and obligations to the human beings who live within her borders.

They can be deported. Obama was a decent guy who saw that it was unfair. Congress was Republican and would not pass it as an Act of Congress. Hillary would not have ended it. But we got the Orange Disaster and a Republican Congress, so they are going to remain deportable.

No reasonable person would think it was right or proper to deport a child (or adult) from the only country they have ever known. It's obscene and inhuman, as is splitting up families and hiding behind a set of shitty partisan rules.

It is the decent thing to do, which Obama did. Too bad we did not get President Hillary, who would have continued said decency.

Last edited Thu Jan 25, 2018, 08:53 AM - Edit history (1)

There was a poll at like over 80%.

And it was jerky to come and tell us the party was wrong, flat out, and should do it another way, and offer no help whatsoever. Looking to be "courted" and disappointed they had to defend their argument. I think they had the intent to disrupt and this thread shows it succeeded.

trusted America and America should live up to its promises?

They know elections can change things, so that is wrong to say.

would not be used against them. We didn't say that everything could be undone by the next administration -- and we shouldn't have expected TEENAGERS to understand that.

We knew what Republicans were like.

when there is plenty of support for it.

And it comes off very condescending about what the Democrats should be doing and saying.

That she could barge in here and immediately present her criticism without introduction or even a whiff of diplomacy.

"But would it not have been a better move to make yourself known to the community first rather than arrive as a stranger and immediately began to criticize

Sure if I'm a child
I'm an adult who signed up to talk with other adults"

Which makes me wonder about her messaging model.

Talk about think-skinned. What I saw from her were suggestions from someone on the same side. The lack of perspective was on one side, led primarily by you.

edited aimed at the OP

Ok

she was attacked.

Most people support DACA so how could Democrats be using the wrong message? And sympathy as a message is better than some promise that no US politicians can make. Plus the presentation was not asking for discussion. It flat out said the Democrats were wrong.

There were some really unnecessary and unkind responses in that thread. It does seem that the same posters show up any time there is a pile on. Smh.

And it continues to happen, day after day, because of something you said when you first joined. Something that you thought was OK to type. And then every time you post something in the future, you are reminded about your initial post, which was actually good advice for Democrats, but since discussion was immediately shut down, you have to leave or change your user name.

It sounded to me, very clearly, that she supported and voted for Democrats.

She got her shit jumped on by 20 or 30 people unnecessarily.

retreated for a bit and that was it...it was over. I said something to a 'long time respected' member that wasn't appreciated by the forum populace. So everybody was up my ass. I went back and forth for a bit but I wasn't going to take on each and every person, but I certainly didn't go running and crying either.


Now had I kept being 'attacked' - well after the incident then yeah I don't think that is appropriate or necessary. But that's not what happened with her. . I just don't understand the drama filled post to people you just 'met' and it's a message board, it's a bad look.

Was here to tell us we sucked.

It sounds like she could have been an excellent addition to DU.

That being said, one doesn't become an excellent addition on the first day. I lurked for a long time (more than a year) before I joined. I just liked reading posts by like-minded people. Eventually I found a thread that I could have something new to say, so I joined and said it.

But, before I did, I had a good grasp of how things were done here. Like anywhere else, a newbie has to integrate into the group. It's never a good start to say "this is what you are doing wrong and I'm fixing it."

Was there some overreaction? Possibly (I didn't bother to read the whole thread). But this is where some scoping the terrain comes in. A new person does not necessarily know about the election day hack or the regular rotation of trolls who think they can stir shit up. We can get - very understandably - touchy when a stranger comes along and crams a stick into wounds that haven't healed over.

I think when I joined here, I began posting right away. I was a refugee from Huffington Post, you see. I joined that back in 08 during the primary, then when Obama was running, and stayed with it until their robo-censorship made any kind of posting tortuous. Now, you can't even comment on there.

But here? What is so cool about DU is that your post shows up at once. You don't have any 'waiting for moderation' bull-puckee like you do on sites like the Hill. Daily Kos is good, too. I get their 'recommended' email pretty much daily, and often post on some of those threads.

DU is pretty much a fun place for me, because it is very, very important for we who are resisting this Trump abomination to realize that we aren't alone. Not at all. Millions and millions of Americans are disgusted and ashamed of Cheetoh and the horrible job he has done, horrified by his 'wreckers' and 'burners' that he has appointed to just take apart the institutions we've all grown up trusting.......aargh.

While I do sympathize with this lady with 26 posts, she did begin by saying something to the effect, 'what's wrong with Dems.' Around here, that's kind of a red flag. Cause we're a blue site, after all.

Jokes aside, I'm a progressive. Basically I loved Bernie's platform. That's how I donate to candidates, and that's how I choose with whom I want to work to help elect. I won't go much further into that, but I'm so tired of being told how I have to talk around these right wing people. Time is on our side, and we need to keep getting the word out. Cause, funny thing, the progressive message in fact DOES resound with the American public. Every single one of the things on that Dem Socialist platform are favored by majorities.

Unlike the GBCW poster who wrote that poignant swan song and then disappeared, my thinking is we need to be strong in the way we advance our message. Especially the concept of taxes. Taxes AREN'T bad. They pay for services we all need and use. Somehow, we let the GOP take that message and pervert it to 'government is the enemy, government is evil, government is the problem.'

That isn't true. The problem is these billionaire parasites and big corporations that forced this giant tax cut through.

People are wising up, I think. I'm optimistic because millions are now aware, calling, writing, signing petitions, and marching. That is something we haven't seen since the 60s. And it works!

If I pull out my own crystal ball, I think Trump and this Russia thing will pretty much take down the whole GOP. They will go the way of the Whigs, because this Ayn Rand radical libertarianism goes against everything we should be standing for. At that point, there will be real and substantive policy debate in the Dem party, and it may split into a more establishment branch and a more progressive branch. Then, we can go back to electing people who actually want to govern, and are willing to compromise in order to move forward - as the founders intended.

Boy was that wordy. Sorry. That verbal gush, you know...

nt

joins a group/comes to a meeting of a group and right off the bat speaks up to tell them what they're doing wrong and how to fix it.

Call it a normal reticence about being thought a fool. Or a decent regard for others' greater experience and longevity. Or a filter between brain and mouth. Humility ? Whatever it is, in my experience in actual situations, it is always followed by chaos and disruption for the group. And the eventual departure of the offender to visit the same on another group.

DU is not the Democratic Party. If a new posters says the party is approaching something in the wrong way, that is not a criticism of DU or its members. Why would anyone need to lurk on a forum before expressing an opinion about a national party?

I have not been here all that long. Just over 2 years. And because I lurked for a good while before I joined I knew from the beginning that in some ways I am more moderate than the majority on DU. But in other ways just as liberal.

And if you could read all my posts I have become more willing to politely express my more moderate opinions. But only after I had enough posts to show I am serious about honest debate here on DU. Or so I hope.

But the idea that I would join DU, immediately announce I am not even a member of the party, and then tell us how we are fucking up in our attempt to attract Trump voters boggles my mind.

And then be all indignant when that is not well received?

Poor Prue. I know a site where they live to criticize the Democratic Party and find pretzel twisting ways to act like liberals yet find ways to support Trump that Prue might like better. Of course, I am pretty sure she is already familiar with that site.

Someone comes along with a perfectly decent and interesting point, a bunch of people decide to jump on them and try and embarrass them, and then after they leave (like most reasonable adults would) you guys decide they must be spies from JPR sent here to disrupt the site.

Jesus christ, its like being in a kindergarten sometimes.

And please go back and read the entire thread. Not just the parts involving Prue. I just did and here is my take away.

1. She messed up that 3 post in she admitted she was not a member of the Democratic Party, proceeds to diagnose the party’s problem, and perhaps worst of all admit she leans right on issues. That was a red flag to me.

2. Some people were hard on her, but others engaged her honestly and even defended her. I would not have been as hard on her as some were, but I did take offense at what to me seemed a condescending attitude.

3. After she dropped off the thread strong discussion including pretty vehement disagreement continued. With DUers being as tough on each other as they were on Prue. It hardly reads like an echo chamber with every one on the same page. Some were carrying on the argument Prue made other’s reacting like they did to Prue.


I think the lady made the mistake of diving in here without learning the culture of the place and announcing right off the bat that she is not one of us. That is never a good practice either on DU or in any other facet of life.

It took me a while to realize DU is not a place to recruit new members to the Democratic Party. If you are not all in you will have a hard time here

Thanks for your reply. It was a little harsh, but I am not running away. Nor offend

Have a nice day.

There's a big difference between 'all working towards the same ends' and this kind of 'with us or against us' crap where people set themselves up as judge and jury to decide whether people are ideologically pure enough.

New ideas can come from anywhere, and not listening to people because they aren't completely in agreement with you just means you're going to miss out on a lot of valuable ideas.

Like you, I'd also be considered a moderate by many here. And, I once was quite active in a different political party, and I did not always vote for Democrats in the past. Maybe one day I'll take the time to write an OP about those days. And if I get flamed for it, well, that's life on the internet. If you deviate from the "mainstream" of a given group, you have to expect some pushback.

As I am a Social Democratic.

But here on DU a few issues make others see me as moderate. I do not support expanding Medicare to everyone but a mixed system of coverages to reach universal healthcare. Like a French or German system.

And I support the party’s platform on firearms; a constitutional right to own for self defense

Those positions alone make some here see me as a moderate. But I am fine with that.

in the name of Independents rabbit hole so many times. She got some very fair pushback and then left insulting Democrats more, no surprise. Looks like she had a self-fulfilling script.

When one party is NUTS and nominates Trump?

I have a friend who proudly proclaims that she is "independent!" This means, as she tells it, she walked into the voting booth not sure who she was going to vote for, then voted for Trump because "he's going to help the coalminers!" (No, she doesn't know any coalminers, and never said a word about them until I asked why she voted for Trump.)

She thinks the fact that she walked into the voting booth without knowing who she'd vote for means she's independent. Jeez Louise.

I wanted to recite that old saw-- "If you keep too open a mind, the brain falls out."

It looks more and more like independents are people who just want to be entertained. It has no meaning, really, just a shallow way to make themselves feel important. They just want a good show. Anyone who could possibly claim that Trump was a serious person and calls themselves "independent" -- what a joke. Sickening.

Of course, it would help if you could spell as well as demonstrating a basic grasp of punctuation and grammar.

Perhaps I'm just too damn old to understand writing in the "think tank/brainstorming mode."

The Democrats absolutely do have a serious messaging problem. I am amazed that anyone here can say that’s up for debate. She made from very salient points, and it’s too bad she was made to feel unwelcome.

like 'Prue' over and over. A little loyalty and showing up at midterms would solve most of our issues...the House is on fire and Trump/GOP has more Kerosene...I don't trust anyone who thinks this is the time to criticize Democrats. The only concern any progressive should have now is stopping fascist Trump and saving our Republica along with Dreamers and just about everyone else. I expect Prue was a troll...the entire I am unaffiliated BS sounds fake. My final words to Prue are as follows, 'by Felicia'.

about pulling together, you see how those filthy repigs stick together. Oops just a little rant. Also repigs can't govern for shit.

I just want to see some sort of justice, we have major problems to contend with. The GOP must go.

Pretty much the only platform the Democratic party has for their message are late night television, email lists and going door to door.

Radio and "News" shows are owned by those who are either fellow travelers with the GOP or believe that Chaos is great for profits. Too many churches - especially the white-flight suburban and rural churches - preach against the Democratic party because of Abortion, the Gays, and the "Religious Freedom" to discriminate against those that are not "Godly" - however they define it.

All politics is local. And if your organizational access to the local mass messaging is can be brushed off as entertainment, spam, or "badgering" of people during dinnertime or when they want to relax, you're just not going to be taken as seriously by the population who just wants to get by in life as those organizations who have unlimited access to "The Official News" - TV, Radio, or Church.

It should have become nakedly clear during the 2016 general election cycle.
Clinton was basically shoved off the air, and Drumpf had nearly a billion dollars in free political campaigning. How do you get your message out to the real "independents" - as in the people who aren't claiming to be independent because they don't want to admit their minds are already made up.

Haele

Not that I don't understand why., Of course I do.... But about 10 years ago this place left me in tears after I fixed a spelling error and didn't know I was supposed to say that I fixed a spelling error...

I guess that was before the moderators and stuff but.... I didn't have the guts to start a new account until at least 5 years later....

Food For Thought I guess..... DU is incredibly important of course .... But sometimes the evil that the other side does affects innocent people on our side....