General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI think we learned a couple of important things this week:
1. The bad thing: There is no line Trump will not cross on the basis of morality, decency or law. None. I'm now absolutely convinced he would be executing journalists and imprisoning people who oppose him if he thought he could get away with it. Since he didn't hesitate to put babies in cages because he thought he'd get some political advantage from it, he's clearly capable of other atrocities.
2. The good thing: Public pressure works! Trump, who cares not at all about traumatized children, folded like a cheap lawn chair when he realized that the "optics" of babies in cages were terrible and that the GOP would be held responsible in November. He may have also realized that his meathead base isn't large enough to save the GOP from an electoral bloodbath.
Now that he's rescinded the family separation policy by executive order (which he said just a few days ago he couldn't do), we still have to keep the heat on, because it's being replaced by a policy that allows families to be held in Trumpvilles indefinitely. One very bad thing is being replaced by another - and what will be done about the kids that have already been separated? Don't let Trump get away with any of it. And remember the important lesson that public pressure works.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)The Velveteen Ocelot
(116,020 posts)syringis
(5,101 posts)I laughed to tears !
Evan DeSimone has hit the nail on the head
This 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Ferrets are Cool
(21,117 posts)Stuart G
(38,458 posts)Dave Starsky
(5,914 posts)Trump believes that bullying, hostage-taking, and threats are legitimate and effective business tactics. "The Art of the Deal," if you will.
TeamPooka
(24,308 posts)and doing investigative reporting on those lies and showing what was really happening.
The Fourth Estate won this.
Trump learned that from this too, he said he got beat by the pictures, so expect a new assault and limits on the freedom of the press next time they pull this shit.
Because there will be a next time.
jayschool2013
(2,319 posts)Dave Starsky
(5,914 posts)You know how pissed off he must be right now. He must be shaking his tiny fists with rage that someone other than his master Putin told him what to do.
BigmanPigman
(51,674 posts)he had no idea how this would land on the US population. The PR and optics of this got businesses (airlines) to boycott the policy, millionaires to donate money to Dem campaigns, local news stations to wake up, GOP politicians to finally stand up, religious leaders to draw the line with GOP policies, the Pope, world leaders and the UN to voice condemnations, etc. Finally, the Resistance with the usual protesters, news stations and Dem politicians got some support. Resistance works...let's keep it up!
lunasun
(21,646 posts)pangaia
(24,324 posts)Meowmee
(5,164 posts)He does derive some pleasure from torturing people though etc
AlexSFCA
(6,139 posts)PunkinPi
(4,882 posts)Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)sometimes people need to take a break for a day away from it all to regenerate. I didn't actually DO anything, except posts in this forum, and some posts to my reps in FB...and speak with a relative, who is independent to get a feel for what he thinks (yes...he wasn't emotional about it...he's an older, gruff man...but he felt that this was another Trump horrible act...he hates Trump).
This crisis after crisis is SO emotionally exhausting! The tears, the anger. Day after day. Just when you think he's done the worst, he tops it.
But putting pressure on everyone else...everyone...is absolutely necessary.
No post in some obscure forum should be let to ride. Silence is agreement. Sometimes you have to b*ch-slap conservatives into reality, since they get all their news from Fox and Limpballs & Breitbart. They really don't KNOW the truth.
pangaia
(24,324 posts)Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)in my state. The Gov even posted in his FB page that he was proud to make clear to Louisianians that the state had no involvement whatsoever in the indefensible policy of separating immigrant children from their families. Although we did supply 3 staffers & a helicopter under a prior agreement for border security only.
EVERYONE is talking about this shocking turn of events.
Crash2Parties
(6,017 posts)- It's not just Trump, the GOP Congress could stop him any day they choose. This is the fault of the entire Party and everyone who supports them.
- The GOP is fully complicit with connections to Russia, too.
- Evangelical & Catholic leaders illegally campaigned at the pulpit for TEN YEARS telling Believers that if they didn't vote Republican they'd burn in Hell forever.
They own this. All of it.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)Some did, I'm sure. But not all. The Catholic Church is torn. They're anti-abortion, want to support exemptions & such for religion. But a high % of their members are minorities or Euro immigrants, and the Church itself has been persecuted in its history. So they are sympathetic to some Democratic policies.
The KKK, for instance, was anti-minority, anti-black, anti-gay, anti-semitic, and anti-Catholic. Kennedy was the first Catholic President, and that was a big deal. He was questioned about his religion before the election...maybe in one of the debates?
Many Catholics are Democrats.
Crash2Parties
(6,017 posts)The Bishops even went so far as to campaign against immigration reform in 2015 - if protections included gays seeking asylum.
As with the Nazis and Republicans, if parishioners continued financially supporting the Church and attending without speaking out, they too were complicit.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)or it was some isolated Bishops.
The official position of the Church since 2013:
The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) opposes "enforcement only" immigration policies and supports comprehensive immigration reform. In Strangers No Longer: Together on the Journey of Hope, the U.S. Catholic Bishops outlined the elements of their proposal for comprehensive immigration reform. These include:
Earned Legalization: An earned legalization program would allow foreign nationals of good moral character who are living in the United States to apply to adjust their status to obtain lawful permanent residence. Such a program would create an eventual path to citizenship, requiring applicants to complete and pass background checks, pay a fine, and establish eligibility for resident status to participate in the program. Such a program would help stabilize the workforce, promote family unity, and bring a large population "out of the shadows," as members of their communities.
Future Worker Program: A worker program to permit foreign‐born workers to enter the country safely and legally would help reduce illegal immigration and the loss of life in the American desert. Any program should include workplace protections, living wage levels, safeguards against the displacement of U.S. workers, and family unity.
Family‐based Immigration Reform: It currently takes years for family members to be reunited through the family‐based legal immigration system. This leads to family breakdown and, in some cases, illegal immigration. Changes in family‐based immigration should be made to increase the number of family visas available and reduce family reunification waiting times.
Restoration of Due Process Rights: Due process rights taken away by the 1996 Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act (IIRIRA) should be restored. For example, the three and ten year bars to reentry should be eliminated.
Addressing Root Causes: Congress should examine the root causes of migration, such as under‐development and poverty in sending countries, and seek long‐term solutions. The antidote to the problem of illegal immigration is sustainable economic development in sending countries. In an ideal world, migration should be driven by choice, not necessity.
Enforcement: The U.S. Catholic Bishops accept the legitimate role of the U.S. government in intercepting unauthorized migrants who attempt to travel to the United States. The Bishops also believe that by increasing lawful means for migrants to enter, live, and work in the United States, law enforcement will be better able to focus upon those who truly threaten public safety: drug and human traffickers, smugglers, and would‐be terrorists. Any enforcement measures must be targeted, proportional, and humane.
http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/immigration/churchteachingonimmigrationreform.cfm
Also....
November 17, 2015
http://www.usccb.org/news/2015/15-157.cfm
There's other information out there. Then there's Pope Francis...he's big on immigration allowances, esp for refugees.
The Catholic Church has a high % of non-Euros the world over, so they have more concern over immigration than some other churches.
ancianita
(36,240 posts)It'a a big fat hoax, much as we want it to be an improvement.
We actually have to never let up the pressure, because there is absolutely no plan by HHS to re-unite these border kids with their parents -- and that's over 2,500 kids who've been, by stealth, sent off to 17 states.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(116,020 posts)The executive order is a sham. It's window dressing. Spanky is still going to try to blackmail Congress into funding the wall.
Jim__
(14,097 posts)Everybody has to keep the pressure on.
PatrickforO
(14,608 posts)has no plan to reunite with their parents.
It ain't over yet. Not by a long shot.
Lonestarblue
(10,178 posts)Some reporters have been questioning the EO and asking whether it is essentially window dressing and an effort by Trump to take off the pressure. Then once attention is eslewhere, hell go back to the same policy. Plus, we need to keep up the pressure to reunite those kids who have been sent all over the country with their parents. We should insist that they all be sent back to Texas immediately to allow parents waiting for hearings to claim their kids. Plus, people who have been deported already without their kids need to be allowed to come back to claim them since DHS/HHS didnt bother identifying the children well enough so that they know who the parents are. I dont know how parents of babies can reclaim their kids since the kids cant talk. This is a mess of Trumps making and we need to keep it in the public eye until every child is reunited with a parent.
Ohioboy
(3,250 posts)We must insist on all of these things you have mentioned. Keep this going. I want to have it looked into how this was planned and implemented. Who were the contractors etc.? Who was making money on the centers?
PatrickforO
(14,608 posts)Every time you follow the money until you get to the slimy rock and turn it over to see the maggots, you always find an old, white, male, liver-spotted hand grasping after MORE PROFITS.
That's what capitalism is - profits at the expense of the earth, human life, community, workers. Profit over people.
Sorry...I guess I'm not much of a capitalist.
Ohioboy
(3,250 posts)I like being able to make an honest profit, but I can't stand those that make their money hurting and cheating others and influencing our government for their own gain.
PatrickforO
(14,608 posts)fiduciary responsibility in publicly held companies. That is what causes big corporations to be so corrosive and destructive.
If you already knew this, forgive me, but if you are the CEO of a publicly held company, your ONLY responsibility is to increase earnings for shareholders. That's it. This is why corporations pollute, drive wages down, bust unions and screw consumers by changing the packaging to hold less product but charging the same price. This is why, for instance, Bayer/Monsanto continues to produce and sell Round Up, though it is a known carcinogen. This is why the dirt-bag Shkreli raised the price of that drug something like 7500%.
I believe we could immediately improve this by forcing changes in corporate charters to expand fiduciary responsibility beyond shareholders to workers, consumers, and the environment.
Do this, and suddenly the big corporations aren't as evil.
There's a really cool website and monograph called 'Regenerative Capitalism' you should check out. It highlights many really good things that are happening at the local level, and is actually where I got this idea about expanding fiduciary responsibility.
fierywoman
(7,709 posts)AllyCat
(16,271 posts)Ohioboy
(3,250 posts)Public pressure does work. Remember one of the first things the republicans wanted to do under Trump was to get rid of the ethics committee? Public pressure put an end to that.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/03/us/politics/trump-house-ethics-office.html
Trump is very concerned with how others see him, and he's very sneaky, like when he tried to mask his Muslim travel ban as something Obama had put in place. One very bad thing is being replaced by another, and we must keep constant watch on this con artist.
Skraxx
(2,987 posts)Enoki33
(1,590 posts)NNadir
(33,590 posts)If his collaborators, the racist cowards McConnell and Ryan are not in power to prevent his ultimate downfall to add to his lifetime record of failure and destruction, he's going down big time.
I honestly am feeling that he will be the first ex-President of the United States to die in prison, which will be ironic for his "lock her up!" chanting race of criminals.
barbtries
(28,824 posts)and things get so bad it's hard to maintain hope, but it will bring change. it just has to.
https://act.moveon.org/event/families-belong-together_attend1/search/
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)Many of them will not be reunited, at least not anytime soon.
And those who are reunited will be subject to more human rights violations. Children can't be held in detention for more than 20 days, so time will tell what a court or Congress or Trump decides to do.
Grammy23
(5,815 posts)the phone lines coming in to DC and to the local offices for our Congress critters must have melted down with all the calls coming in. For once, people took notice and hated what they heard and saw. Thank goodness for the audio because, for many people, that was all it took. Once heard, you cannot forget those poor children crying their hearts out for their parents. For all of our flaws, the vast majority of Americans have a sense of decency and could not remain silent while children were being abused and used by tRump.
Now we learn that even Melania and Ivanka got the ear of Donald and still he was most concerned with how it looked. And not a one word about the psychological damage to the innocents. No. For him it is ALL about how it looks and if it works for him or against him. But at least they were able to get him to reverse his decision, even if it was for selfish reasons.
I must say, the news folks (except for Fox) were on a tear against trump today. He was called a liar and a LOSER! I imagine he still has steam coming out of his ears over that. He better get used to it because I have a feeling it isn't the last time he will be called names. I can think of few choice ones myself.
Lesson learned....pressure firmly applied works. Keep the cards and letters rolling in folks. And pick up the phone. They heard us!
Meowmee
(5,164 posts)No surprise to me, it was all there in his campaign, there is no excuse for having voted for this monster. Today is not the end of this, there are still 2500 or so children snatched and carted off to mostly secret locations etc. I saw on tv some may have been brought to NY to go to foster centers or homes. Not to mention thousands more who came here by themselves. Who knows what is really going down here. And now it will prolly be whole families detained in the same manner.
Pacifist Patriot
(24,654 posts)I think you are spot on with the bad thing. I do believe unchecked Trump has the potential to be another Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Hitler, etc. I do think he would blithely eliminate opponents and result to genocide if he felt he could. He is a sociopath. I've been screaming that for years.
He didn't fold like a cheap lawn chair. The EO he signed is absolutely meaningless and does nothing to resolve the problem, in fact it creates new ones. He's fucking with us.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(116,020 posts)was to get Dems to agree to legislation funding the wall.
In our reporting, he was telling people around him that he thought this would be a good cultural war, kind of victory here, akin to the NFL players kneeling for the national anthem, Lemire said.
The president and attorney general Jeff Sessions admitted they hoped the detained children would force Democrats to agree to fund a border wall, along with other Trump immigration priorities, but instead he signed an executive order to end the separations.
The new executive order is, of course, a sham that just creates more problems and is probably illegal. The point, though, is that Trump mistakenly thought he could get away with yet another awful thing and there would be no blowback. This time there was.
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)So, yeah, the EO is basically illegal. A court will be asked to amend Flores.
lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)He's still concealing cannibalism or sex trafficking or something. Where are the babies and little girls?
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)And it does nothing to reunite those already separated.
It does, however, force the issue. Meaning a court or Congress will have to intervene. Because under current law, children can't be detained indefinitely.
lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)It doesn't end anything; it is a stalling tactic.
He's still snatching children; he's hiding the little girls and babies; he refuses to reunite the hostages he's holding now.
Soylent Green, or sex trafficking. That's what Trump is up to.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(116,020 posts)But I don't think it's soylent green or sex trafficking as much as a combination of gross incompetence and plain old racist malice.
kimbutgar
(21,289 posts)Innocent babies in concentration camps.
How can you support a man who takes babies away from their moms and put them in cages?