It's time.

HRC...The True President. Always was.

She has just always been an intelligent, well-educated, extremely experienced lawyer, first lady, senator and secretary of state. The most qualified person ever to run for POTUS.

She's been a saint since the election regards getting cheated. Handled the RIP-OFF w grace and dignity.

She is awesome.

But it doesn’t work that way.

From two to three: Must be at least 35 years of age, must be a natural-born citizen, and must be a progressive Democrat.

You have a rather steep hill to climb there. A system is in place to impeach and remove an officeholder perhaps we would be better off just going with that for the moment.

That happened. How is that constitutional?

This is unprecedented.
Let's just go back to the Founding Fathers who created the constitution. Do you think they would disapprove more of foreign influence on the US government, or declaring an election invalid because of foreign influence?

Easy answer. They were OBSESSED with preventing foreign influence.

Niceties about elections didn't much concern them.

The constitution is not an etiquette manual. It's a document meant to help protect the United States, its citizens, and its democracy.

It's a new day. The gop has relied on us following rules to the letter...while they commit felonies daily. but, shit...HRC...no help there. It's just her loss to eat i guess. Things have to change. Soon.

But show me in the constitution where there is a method to accomplish what you indicate.

to further install illegitimate officials, etc. This is all too absurd!

. . . that some people need to keep their feet on the ground. That's what I think.

that Hillary won't become president but it's nice to send out the narrative to Trump that his election was rigged by Russian and American Oligarchs. His ego is so fragile that this has to be eating away at him.

president.

It would set a precedent

laws and norms. The govt is OURS, when it cheats Americans it needs to be addressed in some fashion. IMHO HRC won. This is uncharted territory and to just write it off as implausible seems to fail to remedy the crux of the problem...The true president isn't in the Oval. New fact patterns beg for new answers and remedies. HRC always was the president...so...the machinations about everything really are all up in the air. She IS the president, so, we aren't really doing anything but honoring the vote and the true winner. Everything else is just 3 years of a nightmare. (Again...IMHO.)

I would love this to happen as much as anyone else but we can't just make things happen because we want them to.

A walk in the fresh air is a good thing.

then he isn't the real president of the United States.

After all, Trump seems to think that's OK in Venezuela.

Starting w Angela Merkel would be nice. And May. (Grr.)

Soon to add the EU as they gave Maduro a week to announce new elections or they back the new guy.

It is a living flexible document in that it can be amended. The amendment process would take longer than Trump's remaining term. He's fucked in 2020, so if you really want Hillary as president the route is to support her running again.

Impeachment work too obviously but we'd need the Pubs help and need to get Pence too. And that would make Speaker Pelosi president.

His precidence heeds to be declared what it is: Illegitimate. It's justice

over their unmitigated hate for her. She won...she's been president all along...just side-lined. The foundation of his illiget presidency will come down. She won. No need for pretzels about the constitution etc. She won. They manipulated the system, probably changed votes, etc etc etc. HRC won. We aren't relitigating anything.

Those state approved delegates had the responsibility to select the President and VP. In 2016, the states all confirmed electors and they voted. The House and Senate accept the electoral college votes for one of the executive branch offices. It was before that date that the elections could be disputed. That did not happen in January 2017. In fact, the Congressional acceptance was testier in 2000 and 2004.

In 2000, when Florida VOTE was extremely questionable and clearly more people went to the polls intending to vote for Gore. Yet, before the Supreme Court ruled, when people questioned if a redo in Florida would be an option, it was noted that that could not happen and an alternative was for it to go to the state legislature. which has the responsibility of confirming the electors.

In 2016, the Congress approved the rights and the state legislatures confirmed their electors. Beyond that, nothing we learned today suggests that more people in Michigan, Pennsylvania or Wisconsin actually voted for Clinton.

In 2016, the Republicans used more extreme versions of things that have happened before. They used microtargeting using social media - an enhancement of microtargeting people with different mail pieces (which the Republicans did in 2004 using Choicepoint data) and Obama using social media. They also used smears and fake stories -- but that certainly was not new. In all recent elections, the Democrat has set up some group to counter lies - because they happen. It is dirty and unfortunately, I can't think of a recent example of lying about an opponent backfiring on the team at minimum condoning lies.The problem is that it is increasingly harder to counter lies because there are no longer any accepted arbiters of truth. If there were, there would likely be some fear that being seen as lying would risk these lies backfiring.

What the different is that where Rove used lying Texans, the RW radio and Fox, Trump added RUSSIAN assistance. It seems clear that Russia hacked the email and dumped the Podesta stuff strategically to hurt Clinton and provide a story to share the air waves when bad Trump stories came out. Obviously two things are illegal here - hacking email and a foreign nation helping a candidate. Those are things that stepped very far over the line - leading to criminal charges.

It is impossible to know if the stream of Podesta email stories impacted the election. Here, most stories were seen as pretty innocuous. There were very few things that could be called "bombshells". Looking at events and shifts in favorability and changes in head to head polls did not show shifts at those points. Where HRC lost traction was with the revelvation of her email practices (which is all on her - and it coming out was predictable), the Comey news conference where he said she would not be charged then listed all the things he had problems with (Comey was out of line, but if Bill Clinton had not met with Lynch - she would have been the one ending the probe.), and late October public opening of the case (Comey) and the last minute Comey letter reclosing the case, but putting the story in the news in the last weekend.

At this point, we know that many people around Trump worked with Russia to advantage Trump - likely with his knowledge and approval. Just as a bank robber who fails to get money is just as quilty as one who is successful.

That is where our future lies.

and they keep stealing it, getting away with it.

Isn't the election being stolen at least two, possibly three times enough for you?

And the answer is to keep doing the same thing, but expect a different result?

2016 cannot be redone.

Look ahead, and be sure a Democrat wins BIG next time.

Get busy finding a strong candidate.

interference. A strong statement needs to be made so they won't even try again.

The election must be declared illegitimate or annulled, otherwise why would they stop, when it keeps working for them? When the Democrats answer is always "Too bad, we'll have a stronger/charismatic/perfect superstar candidate next time, just to be cheated again?

Enough already!

And I want my pet unicorn and magic genie who grants me wishes.

We have been down this path so many times we should pave it and set up rest stops.

It doesn't matter how many times we travel it though, it always ends in fantasy land.

Thanks, in advance.

There is that little problem of having a means to accomplish this...,..

It's how progress is made.

And burnt cookies, too.

No worries, fella... we're all on your side.

Would take several whistleblowers showing how they actually changed vote totals on several machines in key state precincts.
Even then, there is no vehicle other than the SCOTUS to take the case after a challenge from a lower court.
Or, a coup.

One of the greatest atrocities ever committed in recent politics and history must be made right.

And trump must be remembered throughout history as the illegitimate president he is.

They are basically proposing that we live under a military dictatorship, because that is what would happen after the Civil War that came as a result of overturning he Constitution.

to deal with others who ignored the Constitution. Without thinking about where that slippery slope ends.

Come on. You know that isn't a good idea.

They put impeachment and removal in place to take care of problems. I'm sorry you don't like it, but Clinton will NEVER be made the president as an outcome of all this.

She won, always HAS been the president, we've just been lied to.

The electoral college voted. That's what counts. Even if we get rid of him (which can't come soon enough), that doesn't mean Clinton becomes president. That's just not how our government works. And if it did, do you not think the Republicans would have gotten rid of Obama and put McCain in? Of course they would. Which is EXACTLY why we don't want a government that works that way.

But it gave us the clear and direct means to get rid of an official that shouldn't be in office. That kind of covers all the specifics.

Those who advocated strongly for the outsized influence of the Electoral College in determining the President sure as hell foresaw a future where democratic elections would jeopardize their ability to wield power. It started off as slave owners wanting to retain their right to own human beings and it really has NEVER changed because they STILL want to keep the Electoral College (and fixed number of Senators) as the mechanism to retain power from the minority.

Without the Electoral College, we would have never had Bush II and we would have never had Trump. We would be entering the third year of the Hillary Clinton administration and the 27th consecutive year of Democrats controlling the Executive Branch of the government. The SCOTUS composition would NEVER include the likes of Gorsuch or Kavanaugh and Merrick Garland would be in his fourth year on the bench. Roe v. Wade would be settled law for the remainder of the time of the Republic. Minimum wages would be at $15 nationally and the push for additional wealth distribution and utilization of national resources would be infinitely more equitable.

Without the abomination of Californians facing a 20,000,000 to 1 ratio for Senators and Wyoming having one Senator for every 250,000 citizens, you would see a massive shift in power away from agrarian land centers to urban population centers. Laws that benefit the PEOPLE would dominate the laws that benefit the POWERFUL.

We would have Medicare for All.
We would have Public University education for ALL.
We would have a true Green Jobs Initiative and be leading the world on Climate Change remediation.

Hillary will never be our President and that makes me sad. She was infinitely more qualified in every conceivable measure save one - the ability of racism and misogyny and fear to make white people do the unthinkable and elect or allow to be elected a complete racist douchebag of a human being.

Change the Electoral College - abolish it completely and revert to the popular vote total for the Executive branch leader.

Change the Senate composition to reflect the population more equitably while retaining the longer terms for stability and deliberation in the body itself.

Change the term limits to allow for 3 terms of 4 years as President, 6 terms of 2 years in the House, and 2 terms of 6 years as a Senator.

Change the Supreme Court to allow for recall of justices every 6 years and a maximum appointment limit of 24 years total. Should a justice be recalled on a 6 year review, the position is to be filled within 90 days by the seated President at that time without delay. Should the Senate choose to not offer advice and consent within that period, the President would have the power to appoint the Justice to his or her first 6-year term without the Senate's approval....get them up off their asses and force them to work dammit!!

Change the laws for funding the government to prevent any party from EVER using a shutdown of the government services and employees again.

I would love to shake off the nightmare that is Trump with as vicious and sustained of a backlash as what this Trump mess represents in response to Obama and the first African-American Presidency. Simple physics - every action creates an equal and opposite reaction - has been violated as the white people freak out over the coming minority status and first minority President combined to overwhelm science. The natural order demands a snap back to even the scales and start over...

Is that what we want to do? I don't think revolting should ever be taken completely off the table, but I just don't know what that point is. Once we go there as a country we can't go back and there would be considerable changes that could be the final undoing of our country as we know it. There are laws and processes that must be observed and pursued. When that completely fails it will be our duty to change the situation. We aren't even close to that at this point.

accept a fair outcome. No need for extremes. Pence isnt going to survive this. The country has had enough. Truth and fairness is our guide posts. HRC won. Why is it ok to rob HER of her victory? Pence was in charge of the transistion. He's dirty too. We can dream. Why the heavy hands when it comes to HRC? God damn.

An arrest? First we have to get through whether or not a sitting president can be indicted/arrested and that will go to the SCOTUS and they likely will either side with him or it will take a long time to get that case heard.

Second it's taken two years to get to this point and we don't know that Pence is in this net or not at this point. So you'd need to get this investigation wrapped up, get trump out of power, get pence removed and get the house to name her as speaker in order for her to ascend to the presidency. There is no process to just implement her as the president. We have a constitution we cannot just subvert that and not expect to have dire circumstances down the road.

If you don't want to go through all of that which will effectively run out the clock on his presidency, and you want to implement her immediately then you are really only left with one option and that is ludicrous.

You can make arguments all day, theres a russian group in the WH. HRC won. That's legit to you? As a people we can make it happen. It's only fair and you'd want the same were you in her shoes. We can get exited about it. We are in uncharted territory so really....everythings out the window if trum and pence get 'fingered'. And buddy, they sure look dirty to me.

First what gives you the idea that I think it's legit that HRC isn't sitting in the white house. I want her in the WH.

Second even when they are found to be guilty, which I think they are, there is a process in place for that to happen. It is our constitution and we have to follow it. If we don't do that, imagine how that works down the road when republicans get a bug up their ass and decide that they need to change the constitution because things are dire enough.

I wish wish wish more than anything we weren't having to deal with the reality that we are in. Mostly because of my children's futures. Not my own. But the reality is that we have to live through this and we have to see it through. In times of uncharted waters we need to cling to our institutions and our constitution.

Everyone can read. I'm letting it go. All of my posts are opinion. I don't claim to come here w lexus style reserch...(or I'd say so). I AM slowing down...bc I won't jawbone w you anymore about this friend. We all want whats best and fair. HRC won...pretty obvious if you minus the chicanery. Dreaming she can be our president isnt so far off the mark. As a people we've never been outwardly cheated before like this...our system failed us. The system can bend. I hear your POV. I just disagree. Doesn't mean we have to go back and forth all afternoon. You make good points. Have a good weekend.

Take care friend!

I completely agree. We wuz robbed...that's the majority of American voters, I'm talking about!

How can the supposed greatest country (big lie) be paralyzed by this gang of idiot liars?

a nation of laws. There is a provision in the Constitution to remove the President, but NOTHING short of Hillary running and winning in 2020 will put her in the White House.

… Trump and Pence resign without appointing anyone. Nancy Pelosi nominates Hillary Clinton as President and Congress votes her in - to fill out Trump's term and provide an historical "fix" for the scam.

… Trump asks Pence to resign, or Trump resigns and Pence picks Hillary as VP, and she is confirmed by Congress to fill out Trump's term.

(neither are likely)

… so I'm sure you're correct. I thought the House can put any name in nomination and vote the person Speaker of the House. I don't think it has to be a member of the House. Pelosi could also appoint people into the line of succession. If they were confirmed by the Senate, they would be President. None is likely to happen… I guess my point is that Hillary Clinton could only be President if she were put into the line of succession by anyone from the President on down. She could ascend to the Presidency. Also, I read a little about it and see that Pelosi and the line after VP are only "Acting President". I could tell what the rules would be, there. I guess they go down the line and there is no "Acting Vice President".

Different than the typical loser saying it. Like she knew all this would come to pass.

decides not to recognize Trump as legitimately elected POTUS?

Foreign recognition means nothing legally within the US.

Most countries in the world do not recognize Taiwan as an independent nation. Yet most trade with them and have "unofficial" diplomatic relations with them.

Trump and Pence are both removed at the same time. Pelosi becomes president and picks Clinton as her Vice President. The senate confirms Clinton and Pelosi resigns. I will add that the house would need to confirm as well but given we have a majority, I think it's a given.

The result:

President Clinton

Not tomorrow. Not the day after.

NOW!!!

which for something like this will never happen.

Doing so would be a straight up coup no matter how illegitimate this election was.

It's time to move forward and accept the fact that Hillary will never be our president. I hate it as much as you do. I've loved Hillary since Bill was running for president and she refused to be your run-of-the-mill stand-by-your man housewife who gazes at her husband like he hung the moon. She was her own woman and I love that about her.

Anyway, we have to deal with reality. If tRump remains in office, he won't win 2020. His time is short and everyone knows it.

Refer to: Gore, Al

Make sure we slaughter Trump in the EC, hold the House, and pick up Senate seats in 2020.

Look for that loophole to dog us unless/until we address minimum/maximum state population.

The crimes committed in furtherance of electing him are being prosecuted, but the odds are damn near (and if you are honest with yourself, you know this) damn near 50-1 he gets impeached and removed. The Republicans dislike his style, but (if they are being honest) love his results. And even if he's a one-termer, they figure it's 50/50 he gets to replace one more SCOTUS liberal and not out of the realm of possibility he gets two, and also he might get to replace Clarence Thomas before he heads out the door.

So it can get worse before it gets better.

If I were the DNC, I'd study the 2018 Iowa House races. What caused folks in a state that has largely made a hard-right turn to vote for a lot of Democratic House members, and what might that mean for us in 2020?

adversary to manipulate voters-which includes manipulation of vote tallies).

Trump wins the popular vote; Clinton wins the electoral vote. The Republicans want to unseat her because of her emails - and whatever else they can dream up.

Do you really think that is an appropriate weapon to hand them?

Remember - every subversion of the rules/law/constitution will ultimately come back to bite us.

they also change to make it easier to remove the next Obama or Clinton. The rules make it hard to remove a president for a reason.

Last edited Sun Jan 27, 2019, 05:07 PM - Edit history (1)

declared illegitimate.

It's happened at least twice in the last twenty years.

Enough already.

Especially when you cite a second incidence in the past 20 years - presumably based on vote theft, which is not supported by evidence that would carry water in court.

Demanding that the rules be made more lenient based on what you see through your political lens make it very dangerous, because that leniency can be exploited by others wtih a very different political lens.

I believe they have the power to order a new election held.

Courts have done so in other instances where an election was fraudulent, I think.

Congress can refuse to seat a member if their election is found to be fraudulent, so surely there should be a way to stop a president who is essentially a foreign agent seeking to undermine the U.S. from serving two more years.

If the Senate won't do its job in this one very specific instance, where we're talking the highest possible crime - treason or espionage to subvert our democracy -- then the courts could be asked to step in and declare the election results null and void.

It was a huge scam perpetrated on the American people.

Remember, you do NOT need a majority on either side to start a civil war.

In a civil war, millions would die.

I don't think this is worth a civil war because we will remove him in 2020. As is, history books will remember him as illegitimate. That's a given. But, under our constitution, there is no means to reverse a fixed election.

Even if we proved Russia hacked every voting machine in the country and changed the votes, there is no mechanism to reverse it short of a coup.

I know you'll argue otherwise, just like you did with every other knowledgeable person in this long thread, but that doesn't make it any less true.