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onenote

(42,831 posts)
Fri Jan 25, 2019, 02:36 PM Jan 2019

So, why only "process" indictments, as SHS, Fox and Rudy call them?

Sanders, Giuliani and Fox News are particularly inept apologists for the Trump administration, but that doesn't mean that what they're trying to say should be dismissed out of hand.

Specifically, the fact that Stone was not indicted for directly violating any election related law or conspiring with others to violate any election-related law is interesting.

One possible explanation -- the one the Trumpsters want everyone to believe -- is that the reason no one connected to the campaign has been charged with any violation of election related law is that there isn't evidence sufficient to support such a charge.

On the other hand, it may simply be a matter of timing. Mueller may not be ready to move forward with a conspiracy indictment that names not only Stone, but others. His indictment of Stone, like the other process indictments, may be designed to squeeze Stone into giving up more information Thus, the fact that Stone was indicted on other charges doesn't rule out the possibility that Mueller could in the future seek and obtain a separate conspiracy indictment that names not only Stone, but Bannon and heaven knows who else as part of a conspiracy to defraud the United States by interfering in the election and/or other election violations.

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Wounded Bear

(58,778 posts)
2. I'm pretty sure the term "process indictments" is a media creation...
Fri Jan 25, 2019, 02:40 PM
Jan 2019

I think prosecutors just call them charges for crimes.

Squinch

(51,087 posts)
3. They aren't "only" process indictments, though process indictments
Fri Jan 25, 2019, 02:41 PM
Jan 2019

are very serious and show violations of the rule of law on which our system is based.

But, for example, this Stone indictment. I haven't even finished reading it and can see it goes far beyond "process indictment." In section # 15, the indictment describes Stone directing wikileaks to go find and then publish specific dirt on the Clinton Foundation. That is Stone directing and participating in an illegal act.

onenote

(42,831 posts)
6. But those activities are not the crimes he has been charged with -- yet.
Fri Jan 25, 2019, 02:47 PM
Jan 2019

That's simply my point. It's easy for the Trumpsters to argue that the only actual crimes that Stone (and Manafort, and Gates, and Papadapalous etc) have been accused of committing relate to their interaction with Congress and the Mueller investigation. My point is that any and all of those people and others could be named in a future indictment that alleges exactly what the Trumpsters want us to believe hasn't occurred -- conspiracy to interfere with the election or to commit other election law violations.

uponit7771

(90,371 posts)
12. Witness tampering isn't a "process" crime, that's FAUX News WH spin that the MSM aren't prepared for
Fri Jan 25, 2019, 02:58 PM
Jan 2019

onenote

(42,831 posts)
13. But it also isn't a crime that was committed during the election
Fri Jan 25, 2019, 03:00 PM
Jan 2019

which is the distinction that the Trumpsters are trying to make.

uponit7771

(90,371 posts)
14. Then there post election crimes make it worse. That's not a good argument for the Kremlin KKKlan
Fri Jan 25, 2019, 03:03 PM
Jan 2019

... saying we committed no crimes here but lets lie about all that and then go to jail.

Sounds like they're complete idiots, that position doesn't help them at all.

AJT

(5,240 posts)
4. He starts here.....he can add charges. If Stone cooperates then no more charges.
Fri Jan 25, 2019, 02:41 PM
Jan 2019

If Stone refuses to cooperate then more serious charges will be added. Just my guess.

Ptah

(33,057 posts)
5. Process crime
Fri Jan 25, 2019, 02:43 PM
Jan 2019
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In United States criminal procedure terminology, a process crime is an offense against the judicial process. These crimes include failure to appear, false statements, obstruction of justice, contempt of court and perjury.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_crime

backscatter712

(26,355 posts)
8. Seems to be the best spin they're able to cook up...
Fri Jan 25, 2019, 02:51 PM
Jan 2019

I mean, if that's the best they can do, I'll just sit and watch the fireworks...

gratuitous

(82,849 posts)
9. "Process" crimes, or as they're more popularly known, "crimes"
Fri Jan 25, 2019, 02:54 PM
Jan 2019

And you still get to go to jail for them.

bigbrother05

(5,995 posts)
10. Those are the slam dunk charges with hard evidence, waiting for the search results
Fri Jan 25, 2019, 02:56 PM
Jan 2019

With the contents of Cohen, Manafort, and now Stone residences/offices there should be lots of cross connections leading to the top tier of this pyramid.

Will obviously get to the younger Trumps and in-laws, then to Donald and maybe even Vlad.

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