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Tommy_Carcetti

(43,235 posts)
Fri Feb 1, 2019, 09:05 AM Feb 2019

Occam's Razor and the Trump Tower meeting.

It’s extremely simple.

The Trump Tower meeting was attended by Trump’s campaign manager, his son-in-law and his son. Literally the three most important people in his campaign besides Trump himself.

When the meeting was scheduled, Trump immediately announced he would be giving a speech claiming dirt on Hillary.

The chances he had no knowledge of these events at the time they were happening are virtually nil.

Remember, the two questions we know Trump has answered in writing to Mueller are:

1. Whether he had any contemporaneous knowledge of the Trump Tower meeting?

and

2. Whether he knew that Roger Stone was communicating with Wikileaks during the campaign?

He answered no to both questions.

Buckle up. It’s about to get even more interesting.

38 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Occam's Razor and the Trump Tower meeting. (Original Post) Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2019 OP
K&R... spanone Feb 2019 #1
'Occam's Rzaor and the Trump Tower meeting.' - pithily put empedocles Feb 2019 #2
I agree completely HopeAgain Feb 2019 #3
And don't forget - that purportedly damning speech "exposing all" about HRC the following Monday? calimary Feb 2019 #9
The reason given for the speech cancellation was the shooting at the Pulse nightclub. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2019 #13
Like he would give a shit! N/t TexasBushwhacker Feb 2019 #34
The docs released by wikileaks were stolen long before the 'trigger' you're speaking of mr_lebowski Feb 2019 #26
Definitely a signal. A cue - in plain sight. calimary Feb 2019 #35
Was there anything in the emails that were released (by Wikileaks) that were in any way scarytomcat Feb 2019 #29
See, that's the thing. I don't remember that there was anything that damaging calimary Feb 2019 #36
Thanks scarytomcat Feb 2019 #37
There were no 'Hillary Emails' released by Wikileaks ... the damaging stuff was the DNC release mr_lebowski Feb 2019 #38
Rule No. 39 - There is no such thing as coincidence. n/t aggiesal Feb 2019 #14
Kick dalton99a Feb 2019 #4
We're such a forgiving lot, eh? Eyeball_Kid Feb 2019 #5
I completely agree pandr32 Feb 2019 #7
Very well written lunatica Feb 2019 #23
Trump was in the building when the meeting took place but he had no knowledge of the meeting? Botany Feb 2019 #6
Exactly. nt SunSeeker Feb 2019 #12
If that were true he's even stupider than we think. lunatica Feb 2019 #24
"They*" are now trying to say that Don Jr. did make a phone call after the meeting but not to ... Botany Feb 2019 #27
Don Jr always goes over his daddy's head lunatica Feb 2019 #30
And this... N_E_1 for Tennis Feb 2019 #8
Yes, he's a control freak who was ignorant of LuvNewcastle Feb 2019 #31
I'm so ready for this all to be over - cilla4progress Feb 2019 #10
+1 2naSalit Feb 2019 #15
At 70 I can only hope we truly are dealing with the devastation lunatica Feb 2019 #32
Or Rule #39: There are no coincidences... Wounded Bear Feb 2019 #11
K&R 2naSalit Feb 2019 #16
The key question is: how does it get proven? oberliner Feb 2019 #17
Phone records, text records, other documentary evidence, witness testimony. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2019 #18
But he doesn't text and there may not have been a phone call oberliner Feb 2019 #19
It's been hinted at various times Michael Cohen would testify.... Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2019 #20
Yeah - let's hope they all abandon ship and give up the goods oberliner Feb 2019 #22
Wait a minute. If I remember correctly ProudLib72 Feb 2019 #21
My personal "Deep Operatic Shit" fantasy has.... Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2019 #25
Heck. Do we think that Trump Tower room was a SCIF?? Grasswire2 Feb 2019 #28
How do we know Trump was not at meeting? Sneederbunk Feb 2019 #33

HopeAgain

(4,407 posts)
3. I agree completely
Fri Feb 1, 2019, 10:32 AM
Feb 2019

That "announcement" that he was going to release information on Hillary and the timing of it could not have been coincidental.

Much of the circumstantial evidence (including his behavior towards Putin) is indeed in plain site.

calimary

(81,608 posts)
9. And don't forget - that purportedly damning speech "exposing all" about HRC the following Monday?
Fri Feb 1, 2019, 11:46 AM
Feb 2019

Never happened. That following Monday came a’following, alright. And nothing. No speech. No fiery civilian indictment of purported Clinton “crimes”. NOTHING.

I’m no expert OR insider here. But after he gave that speech calling on Russia to find “those 30-thousand emails” (which I suspect was the trigger, the green light, the official go-ahead - that the Russian trolls were waiting for, to get started) late that week, I think they probably got a look at those emails and found a big fat NOTHING.

I suspect that a lot of the advance work had been done. That maybe the stolen emails were already in hand but that nobody’d started sitting through them yet, or they found THE link or THE way in - and were just waiting for the timing to be right for the big release. And it was a whole lotta nothing.

Could this possibly be the same load of emails that Comey just HAD TO blab about that turned up in October of 2016, just before the election - that Comey eventually conceded were a whole lotta nothing?

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,235 posts)
13. The reason given for the speech cancellation was the shooting at the Pulse nightclub.
Fri Feb 1, 2019, 12:06 PM
Feb 2019

Whether that had anything to do with anything is an entirely different matter altogether.

 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
26. The docs released by wikileaks were stolen long before the 'trigger' you're speaking of
Fri Feb 1, 2019, 04:05 PM
Feb 2019

In fact the release of those documents, along with public allegations that Russia was behind them ... are (ostensibly) WHY Trump phrased that the way that he did.

It may've been a Sign to Russia that 'I approve' and maybe even 'as I told you secretly, keep helping me and if I win I'll remove sanctions' ... but it was not a trigger to release DNC docs.

Now, IIRC, the Podesta emails had not yet been released, so I suppose it could've been a signal to go ahead and release those ...

But the Russian trolls were already WELL started before that little number by Trump.

calimary

(81,608 posts)
35. Definitely a signal. A cue - in plain sight.
Sat Feb 2, 2019, 03:00 PM
Feb 2019

I’m convinced it was a signal he sent to the Russians and their nogoodnik troll squads to “unleash the hounds.” Or go full-tilt-boogie on what they already had and were holding - waiting for just the right moment.

scarytomcat

(1,706 posts)
29. Was there anything in the emails that were released (by Wikileaks) that were in any way
Fri Feb 1, 2019, 04:26 PM
Feb 2019

damaging to Clinton or her campaign? I never saw anything. They were John Podesta's emails that were hacked and stolen but I don't think the was anything damaging or illegal.
Comey had Clinton emails that the rethugs were trying prove she used a private server for top secret stuff and 30 thousand were supposedly missing.They were eventually found I believe and were all personal. Comey right before the election found emails that were duplicates of ones he already had and made his announcement before he looked at them or so he said later after the damage was done.

calimary

(81,608 posts)
36. See, that's the thing. I don't remember that there was anything that damaging
Sat Feb 2, 2019, 03:04 PM
Feb 2019

that came out of any of these emails. Maybe I’m just foggy this morning. But I do remember thinking how Much Ado About Nothing it was. For BOTH the Hillary emails AND the Podesta emails. Big helping of nothingburgers.

 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
38. There were no 'Hillary Emails' released by Wikileaks ... the damaging stuff was the DNC release
Sat Feb 2, 2019, 06:18 PM
Feb 2019

That basically suggested that DWS had more or less 'wronged' Bernie in the primary, that Hillary may've been supportive of that action.

It gave the Facebook hackers great ammunition to turn around and target the Bernie voters they'd identified, with messages of how 'Hillary, DWS and DNC screwed Bernie!1!!' ... and they got just enough of them to either stay home, or vote for Stein or Trump, in the needed States.

Eyeball_Kid

(7,440 posts)
5. We're such a forgiving lot, eh?
Fri Feb 1, 2019, 10:54 AM
Feb 2019

We, or rather or representative press, presumes Trumpy's truthfulness at his every utterance, then present SHOCK that, oh, once again, Trumpy is lying. Every day, the same process occurs, and once again, we find that he lies, and then he lies about his lies.

NOTHING Trumpy says speaks of truth. We don't have a president who cares about truth. Yet, again and again, even the most resistant of media companies continually equivocates with language that mollifies the true horror of Trumpy's presidency.

When media companies convey a presumption that Trumpy first and always LIES, and that he is a con artist and criminal, the nation can be seen as making progress. We must move beyond the puffery that anyone in the presidency is imbued with presidential qualities of statesmanship and national leadership. Trumpy has none of these qualities. When media companies (the electronic and printed press) report on a daily basis that this is Trumpy's MO, and that he never deviates from it, we can begin to move on.

Botany

(70,663 posts)
6. Trump was in the building when the meeting took place but he had no knowledge of the meeting?
Fri Feb 1, 2019, 11:02 AM
Feb 2019

Please.

https://themoscowproject.org/collusion-timeline/

look @ the timeline from May 2016 to July 2016

lunatica

(53,410 posts)
24. If that were true he's even stupider than we think.
Fri Feb 1, 2019, 03:24 PM
Feb 2019

It has been proved that he was surrounded at the highest levels of his campaign with active crooks and spies with all the indictments set forth, but he had no idea? No clue? He was just the innocent, honest, idealistic, sincere hero and advocate of the “little oppressed white man”?

He is only a victim of his lawyer who unbeknownst to him did all kinds of dirty work just to protect him without him knowing? Evil women who he ignored always put their pussies in his hand, victimizing him out of some strange spite?

Yeah, sure.

Botany

(70,663 posts)
27. "They*" are now trying to say that Don Jr. did make a phone call after the meeting but not to ...
Fri Feb 1, 2019, 04:13 PM
Feb 2019

... his dad but to just some other, "other guy."


lunatica

(53,410 posts)
30. Don Jr always goes over his daddy's head
Fri Feb 1, 2019, 04:30 PM
Feb 2019

All his kids do. They’re responsible for making him the Prez!

N_E_1 for Tennis

(9,807 posts)
8. And this...
Fri Feb 1, 2019, 11:25 AM
Feb 2019

Read these 2 articles and try to convince someone that president Wallnutto did not know what was going on. Junior didn’t have to call him directly...he knew what that tower meeting was all about.


https://www.businessinsider.com/r-separation-anxiety-trumps-management-style-poses-challenges-in-oval-office-2016-12

****snip****


Interviews with a dozen people familiar with how Trump conducts business reveal the president-elect as a micromanager who regularly spars over details about decor in projects across his real estate and branding empire.

"I'm very much involved in the details," Trump said during a June deposition in a lawsuit stemming from his development of a Washington hotel. "I was involved in the design of the building and the room sizes and the entrances and the lobby and the marble and the bathrooms and the fixtures and the bars and a lot of things."

****snip****

This article is really good.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/mar/14/donald-trump-former-employee-interviews-ego-diversity


****snip****

While Trump’s self-regard is well established, these accounts, some from former staff members who have not spoken about their time in the company since Trump announced his candidacy, give a more detailed insight into the dynamics of Trump’s organisational and management style, which serve perhaps as a portentous insight into how he could operate in the White House.

A consensus emerged of a businessman obsessed with minute detail, prone to micromanagement, who takes little interest in the diversity of his executives or the welfare of lower-level employees. Some said Trump lacks the temperament to deal with setbacks and becomes instantly impatient with those who do not support or agree with him, while remaining resolutely loyal to those who do. Others described their former boss as a workaholic with few true friends, a man sometimes awkward in company outside the workplace.


****snip****

Yeah, he knew nothing...nothing I tell you...nothing.

LuvNewcastle

(16,867 posts)
31. Yes, he's a control freak who was ignorant of
Fri Feb 1, 2019, 04:31 PM
Feb 2019

the details of the most important thing he’s ever done. Not a chance.

cilla4progress

(24,802 posts)
10. I'm so ready for this all to be over -
Fri Feb 1, 2019, 11:52 AM
Feb 2019

our national nightmare. But also riveted.

Devastating and not something this country will reckon with soon.

In fact, at 63, I suppose we will be dealing with repurcussions till I die and long after.

lunatica

(53,410 posts)
32. At 70 I can only hope we truly are dealing with the devastation
Fri Feb 1, 2019, 04:32 PM
Feb 2019

after we kick his ass out, or he quits. Whichever comes first.

It’s going to take a while.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,235 posts)
18. Phone records, text records, other documentary evidence, witness testimony.
Fri Feb 1, 2019, 02:09 PM
Feb 2019

Same way anything gets proven.

There is going to be more than one person who doesn't feel that Donald Trump is worth going to jail for.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
19. But he doesn't text and there may not have been a phone call
Fri Feb 1, 2019, 02:47 PM
Feb 2019

Just an in person conversation with no witnesses.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,235 posts)
20. It's been hinted at various times Michael Cohen would testify....
Fri Feb 1, 2019, 02:58 PM
Feb 2019

....that Trump knew about the meeting when it was going on.

You also have people like Hope Hicks or Trump's personal assistant who may have had knowledge about the meeting and was relaying it to Trump, and those people might not like the idea of going down with the SS Trump.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
22. Yeah - let's hope they all abandon ship and give up the goods
Fri Feb 1, 2019, 03:12 PM
Feb 2019

Looks like Cohen is really to spill everything - hopefully the rest will follow suit.

ProudLib72

(17,984 posts)
21. Wait a minute. If I remember correctly
Fri Feb 1, 2019, 03:05 PM
Feb 2019

Junior had been in contact with the Russian lawyer, was offered dirt, then set up the meeting. In other words, this took planning over a period of time. So Rump is saying that he never knew anything about it? So Junior acted completely on his own in taking up the deal? I have two thoughts on this.

1) I obviously don't believe Rump's story for one second.

2) Way to throw Junior under the bus!

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,235 posts)
25. My personal "Deep Operatic Shit" fantasy has....
Fri Feb 1, 2019, 03:55 PM
Feb 2019

.....Donald Junior turning against his dad in the end.

It's pure fantasy, mind you, and is about as likely to happen as the whole "Let's get Hillary magically installed as President because she was cheated out of her victory, even though the Constitution doesn't contemplate such a scenario" fantasy that gets bandied about here from time to time.

But it would be absolutely magnificent to see unfold if it ever did happen.

Grasswire2

(13,575 posts)
28. Heck. Do we think that Trump Tower room was a SCIF??
Fri Feb 1, 2019, 04:19 PM
Feb 2019

It seems pretty certain (and there may be record already, I don't remember) that TT was being surveilled for Russian mobbery, money laundering, etc.

Why would there not be that capability?

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