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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsCool your shit. That was the most epic mic drop I've ever seen from a prosecutor
That was actually much more brutal and more confrontational than I thought Mueller would be when I heard he was talking.
Take-aways:
1. The OSC found evidence of a criminal cover-up by Trump
2. The DoJ rules the OSC operated under prevented them from charging Trump directly
3. The DoJ as a body is not competent to investigate and charge the President (in general I actually agree with this)
4. Congress is. Crimes were found and elucidated in the OSC's report, and that report could not predicate those crimes. Mueller made clear the only limit to their predication of crimes was that a sitting President cannot be charged. 2 + 2 = ?
5. This was, seriously, much harsher than I expected Mueller to ever be publicly. He has basically taken the mantle of an independent prosecutor rather than a special counsel, and has come as close as he can to formally recommending impeachment.
Don't let the blowhards fool you. This was a fucking devastating thing for Trump.
Corgigal
(9,291 posts)also do NOT count on the next election to fix this. Russia is still owning our President and will continue because no one is protecting the electoral process.
triron
(22,031 posts)GusBob
(7,286 posts)they will do everything in their power to keep him in office
gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)It's doesn't really matter how "devastating" Mueller's words were. They weren't enough, and nothing is going to change.
Brainstormy
(2,381 posts)and that's why I say the whole, horrible thing was pointless. We're still nowhere and the Orange Anus is still in the Whitehouse.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)whole thing to go down this way.
But he did hand it to us, and still not I word from our leaders. Sad
CaptainTruth
(6,624 posts)The only way to get rid of him & his regime is to vote them out.
BlueJac
(7,838 posts)MFM008
(19,839 posts)That causes more heartburn for the maggot
Is a good thing.
Ferrets are Cool
(21,122 posts)And it makes me seriously sick.
Mr. Evil
(2,868 posts)Even with his obvious, in broad daylight, connections to corrupt Russian oligarchs. If anyone ever needed to have much more light shined upon them, it's him. I'm of the opinion that he is the proverbial 'finger in the dike' protecting all things criminal and corrupt regarding President Nazivomit and republican's dedication, determination and desire to completely ratfuck the USA.
In other words, politically neutering Mitch McConnell should be an extremely urgent priority.
dem4decades
(11,322 posts)Questions about their refusal to hold the President accountable. No other questions just ask why they're traitors to the Constitution.
tclambert
(11,087 posts)Stargazer09
(2,132 posts)It would be awesome if a few GOP senators suddenly switched their party affiliation to Independent and caucused with the Democrats. Old Mitch would not be in charge any longer
dumbcat
(2,120 posts)The Electoral Process is run by the States, not the Federal Govt. Are you saying that no blue state governors, Secretaries of State, or Legislatures are doing anything to protect the process? Who do you think should be protecting the electoral process, and how?
uponit7771
(90,378 posts)dumbcat
(2,120 posts)What does that mean?
As I asked, are no blue state dems doing anything to protect the electoral process?
uponit7771
(90,378 posts)sarabelle
(453 posts)Nancy is really disappointing me on this. She should want the Senate to on record as to what they stand for and who they support. If they refuse to charge this President, they should be forced to say so for prosperity. Their legacy should be forever enshrined in the acquittal of the most corrupt, indecent, immoral, fascist President in our history. McConnell already has the most sullied reputation ever for obstructing good governance and colluding with the enemy for personal gain.
Nevermypresident
(781 posts)emmaverybo
(8,144 posts)of his findings. His message is also in what he didnt say. He did not say that there were other considerations, lack of evidence, for instance, in his not charging Trump, than DOJs policy.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Policy that didn't allow them to indict is the big reason they chose not to make a "determination" as to whether a crime had been committed. "Determination," of course, meaning an official statement.
Of course, no way everyone down to the transcription clerks didn't arrive at their own conclusions.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Fair point.
That's a damned fine line, though
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)reported that a crime or crimes had been committed. We'd be in a whole different situation, with identified crimes for congress to investigate and act on.
It's big that inability to charge is obstructing the proper conclusion of the investigation, of course. But we want to know if crimes were committed -- THAT is the heart of this. Not whether the DoJ can indict.
emmaverybo
(8,144 posts)uponit7771
(90,378 posts)spanone
(135,958 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)And he told Congress that if they call him, he's going to say the same thing he said today and refer them to the report. And that is the same thing Barr said 2 months ago in writing and on TV.
emmaverybo
(8,144 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Mueller could not indict, but Muellers report did not exonerate trump on Obstruction. That meant it was up to Congress, and Congreve has punted so far.
emmaverybo
(8,144 posts)David Axelrod (@davidaxelrod) Tweeted:
Mueller directly contradicts Barrs representation that DOJ rules were NOT the reason the Special Counsel decided to forego a prosecution of @realDonaldTrump.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)This is what Barrs 3/24/2019 summary said:
The report's second part addresses a number of actions by the President most of which have been the subject of public reporting that the Special Counsel investigated as potentially raising obstruction-of-justice concerns. After making a thorough factual investigation into these matters, the Special Counsel considered whether to evaluate the conduct under Department standards governing prosecution and declination decisions but ultimately determined not to make a traditional prosecutorial judgment. The Special Counsel therefore did not draw a conclusion - one way or the other as to whether the examined conduct constituted obstruction. Instead, for each of the relevant actions investigated, the report sets out evidence on both sides of the question and leaves unresolved what the Special Counsel views as difficult issues of law and fact concerning whether the President's actions and intent could be viewed as obstruction. The Special Counsel states that while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him.
Seems clear to me, both Mueller and Barr are saying its up to Congress. Barr even specifically states Muellers report does not exonerate trump regarding Obstruction.
emmaverybo
(8,144 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)somebody elses post.
emmaverybo
(8,144 posts)down, dont read, but the differences have been ably pointed out today, on numerous tweets, news shows, including on Fox, and by several DUers doing their homework.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)down. Most of the people tweeting, etc., today act like what Mueller said today is a surprise. His comments about Obstruction are almost word for word what is in his March report:
"Fourth, if we had confidence after a thorough investigation of the facts that the President
clearly did not commit obstruction of justice, we would so state." [Page 2, Vol II]
He also said in his report, quite explicitly, that Russia interfered in our election. Finally, he said, they did not find sufficient evidence on collusion/conspiracy. All those things were repeated in Barr's summary, but people are acting like it's never been said before.
Point is, Mueller said nothing new today. Some people -- perhaps a lot of people -- totally missed it in a Report released in mid-April and a summary written over two months ago. Why it's just hitting people is beyond me.
In any event, I hope it leads to the right move in the House. I am not sure Obstruction is going to take trump down, but if the House wants to try -- and unlike Rep Clyburn has said, the House has the votes -- great. I hope we don't get shot down because 1.5 months after Mueller's report was released, the polls indicate significantly less than half the electorate believes Impeachment is warranted. I don't really think it will change much based on what happened today, since Mueller said nothing new for anyone who has read the Report and Barr's summary.
I want trump gone, but a failed effort -- and the failure may be in the House, not the Senate -- will be catastrophic.
Brainstormy
(2,381 posts)kentuck
(111,111 posts)That were not truly listening.
ismnotwasm
(42,030 posts)Ive never expected much out of the Mueller report, as a far as getting rid of Trump directly.
Mueller just had an epic I said what I said moment.
Bradshaw3
(7,554 posts)I'm hearing lots of words like implicit, implied, infererred (just now from Kamala Harris) and "follow the breadcrumbs" in response to this. That's not the reaction to a mic drop. There was nothing new here. Mueller is now a private citizen and, like any private citizen, has the right to give his opinions, and a duty to do so. Not say I'm outa here and don't want to testify.
I don't who the blowhard shot was aimed at, but puffing this up to something it isn't doesn't make it any more devastating for trump than the orgiinal report has been.
emmaverybo
(8,144 posts)Bradshaw3
(7,554 posts)It made no difference as far as moving the case forward, or convincing more than one repub, or affecting his poll numbers in any meaningful way. I'll quote you an expert. Historian Naftali is on CNN right now, saying that the Watergate legal team said that Nixon was indictble and impeachable. When we get to the point of actual indictments and Supreme Court rulings against trump and his fellow travelers that are then enforced by authorities then we can talk about mic drops and trump being devastated.
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,089 posts)uponit7771
(90,378 posts)emmaverybo
(8,144 posts)ecstatic
(32,814 posts)as far as shaping public opinion.
Hekate
(91,055 posts)mcar
(42,479 posts)The negativity here is astounding.
tavernier
(12,431 posts)Interference through social media.
Hekate
(91,055 posts)...months ago that Mueller was "betraying" us because reasons (such as an alleged and unproven loyalty to the GOP).
People who are unhappy with Mueller's statement today want a circus put on for them, with Mueller as trained monkey. Well, this is Real Life, not a reality show, and he of all people operates in Real Life. He did his job, all of it. Now other people need to do theirs.
I heard what you heard. It was an epic mic drop.
MineralMan
(146,358 posts)of how our government works. Despite that, they weigh in on every issue, from a position of major ignorance.
There are, in the House of Representatives, a number of legal minds who do understand constitutional issues along with the realities of the operations of government and the vagaries of politics.
I will defer to their judgment on this issue.
Mueller clearly passed the baton to the House today. He has done what he could do. Now, it is up to the next constitutional method. Decisions must be made by people who understand exactly how to run this race, now that it is their lap and they're holding the baton.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)It would also be nice of they actually read the report.
One of my frustrations is how often people will post just blatantly wrong statements on the law or congressional procedure - they state it as declarative fact without bothering to do any research to confirm that what they're saying is true. And then when someone who DOES know it corrects them, they double down and want to argue, still without bothering to know what they're talking about.
Dream Girl
(5,111 posts)uponit7771
(90,378 posts)The part where Mueller busted Barr in the jaw was good
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)They don't need Mueller to say anything to convince them Trump needs to go. They already are complete there. They just want a show. More than that, they want a show they can rate and cheer and boo.
True Blue American
(17,998 posts)And well done in a way that respects our agencies in a way that Bill Barr will never do. He made it clear what the situation is.
I admire Mueller for how he worded the take down of Trump and Barr.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(116,032 posts)is a Big Fucking Deal that has to be dealt with.
And even if there hadn't been those OLC memos saying a president can't be indicted, Barr would see to it that any indictment of Trump would not happen. It wouldn't get as far as the Supreme Court because Trump's Roy Cohn would be sure it wouldn't happen in the first place.
Hekate
(91,055 posts)Russia, if you're listening....
The Velveteen Ocelot
(116,032 posts)in the controversy over whether Trump obstructed justice and what should be done about it - because Trump and the GOP are doing their damnedest to see to it that nothing is being done to stop the Russians next time.
sop
(10,306 posts)Mueller made it very clear Russia is subverting our democratic electoral process. Trump's (and the GOP's) refusal to take any action to prevent it is a violation of his (their) oath of office, it is also an impeachable offense.
ScratchCat
(2,025 posts)about indicting the sitting POTUS, the indictment would have been handed down long before Barr had been selected to be AG. Rosenstein would have had the authority.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(116,032 posts)that Mueller be fired and the indictment never sees the light of day.
uponit7771
(90,378 posts)StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)for failing to do anything about Russian interference as they do demanding Pelosi start impeachment?
The Velveteen Ocelot
(116,032 posts)to pay attention to the Russians. On MSNBC, which I'm watching right now, John Heileman is doing exactly that.
DeminPennswoods
(15,307 posts)to hear it spoken, out loud, by the lead investigator. I think it helps mitigate some of the political risk as to beginning an impeachment inquiry.
Pacifist Patriot
(24,654 posts)While I'm disappointed he interpreted the scope of his authority so narrowly, I am not all that surprised he did.
However, my jaw literally dropped as I watched him speak. I did not think he was going to be so bold either. Clearly if he did not feel bound by DOJ regs, his inclination would have been to charge.
Mr.Bill
(24,380 posts)to do their job properly until they see the unredacted report. Until that happens, evidence is being illegally withheld from them.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)underlying report.
scarytomcat
(1,706 posts)but by the amount of redactions it looks like more cases could be made against dump's associates but it is up to the congress to take the next move on dump
zentrum
(9,866 posts)...the HUGE stink the Democrats should be making as of today is that our elections were clearly interfered with by a foreign government and our very own President (gag) continues to not do anything about it.
Continues to not address it. Said even, that he believed Putin.
Why? They should ask.
Because he doesn't want to jeopardize his chances in the next election. Period. Full stop. He still wants their help. He welcomed it last time. The American President.
The Democrats need to scream this to the rafters. And talk endlessly about how un-American and un-Presidential it is to have a President who is completely unconcerned with foreign actions against the country.
Democrats should ask if this is what the Trump red hatters themselves stand for?
Is this what Make America Great Again means?
Democrats should just keep driving this home.
MBS
(9,688 posts)iluvtennis
(19,913 posts)@joanwalsh, 2h
This just jumped out at me: Mueller said: "When a subject of an investigation obstructs that investigation or lies to investigators, it strikes at the core of the governments effort to find the truth and hold wrong doers accountable." Not "If a subject." Hmmm.
Link to tweet
?s=20
Generic Other
(28,979 posts)Eliot Rosewater
(31,158 posts)He must testify, period
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,128 posts)so why haven't impeachment hearings started already?!?!
Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!
world wide wally
(21,762 posts)Kurt V.
(5,624 posts)Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)but Mueller calls it conspiring...not enough to rise to the level of a crime, anyway. He did find evidence of obstruction of justice, but did not reach a conclusive finding on that because he can't indict, so not his job to find Trump guilty of a crime that can't be determined in Court, because that's not fair. But he can't find that Trump did NOT obstruct justice, either. If he could have, he would say so.
Same thing as the report said.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)I'd be thrilled if Mueller TV announcement today -- summarizing his own summary of the Report -- causes enough people to scream for Impeachment. It's just amazing to me that anyone believes Mueller said one thing new today.
Truthfully, my takeaway from this whole election -- going back to 2016 -- is that our education system is a complete failure.
Marie Marie
(9,999 posts)scarytomcat
(1,706 posts)if he is lucky he will die in office in the next year and a half
3catwoman3
(24,147 posts)JAD
(187 posts)Just wanted to know if this is possible.
obamanut2012
(26,201 posts)And harsh.
ancianita
(36,242 posts)are trending to endorse impeachment.
MadDAsHell
(2,067 posts)Politicub
(12,165 posts)They won't stop complaining until he yells and throws poo, apparently.
Mueller said what he needed to say. It was nearly biblical in how it sounded. And devastating in its simplicity.
The reason why I say it sounded biblical is because brought to mind this verse from the book of John in the King James version of the Bible:
"In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you."
I hear it in my mind in Samuel Jackson's voice from Pulp Fiction. But he would have appended motherfucker at the end.
Note: I'm an atheist but grew up in Pentecostal and Baptist churches. Jesus was on tap three times a week for more than 16 years. So I know my Bible and how people use it.
And Note 2: In all of my years interneting, I don't think I've ever quoted from the Bible. I should paste Mueller's head on dinosaur-riding Jesus with his quote and share it with my fundie family members on Facebook.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)and they get crickets and arguments.
Heartstrings
(7,349 posts)I know we all compliment Robert Mueller on his eloquence, but I wish he were a little less nuanced. Key and Peele used to have this comedy bit where they did the Obama anger translator, and so, Ill be Robert Muellers translator. Heres what I heard him say: There was NO HOAX! Russia interfered with our election. There was NO COUP! These people acted with integrity in their investigation. I CANT find obstruction of justice because the law says that I cant charge a sitting president! But you know who can? CONGRESS CAN! Its your turn. Read my damn report! Its all there.
That's all he could do....he followed the law.
Sorry, I don't have a link to the quote.
Tertullian
(46 posts)A sharp blow to Trump. Real political damage occurred.