Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search
40 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Clear As Mud (Original Post) kpete Jan 2020 OP
Excellent underpants Jan 2020 #1
Worst part? robbob Jan 2020 #2
+1 2naSalit Jan 2020 #4
THIS! Mickju Jan 2020 #16
+1 MontanaMama Jan 2020 #26
Don't forget that the US supported the Saudi's proxy war in Yemen. Haggis for Breakfast Jan 2020 #34
Circular logic makes me feel like my head is spinning or something. rickyhall Jan 2020 #39
This is a little dated, but good reading. CrispyQ Jan 2020 #18
what a great writer... stillcool Jan 2020 #29
+1 progressoid Jan 2020 #25
Going back to the 1950's, we were NEVER the "good guy" in Iran. nt nature-lover Jan 2020 #3
And we were stirring up shit in Indochina back then through the CIA. Texin Jan 2020 #12
Iranian Nuclear Threat Missing Context: US Sold Iran Its 1st Reactor! Jan 17, 2012 OhNo-Really Jan 2020 #17
1953 to be exact... Duppers Jan 2020 #19
So we could hand Iranian oil back to the Brita. grantcart Jan 2020 #35
And we know how well the Brits govern.... erronis Jan 2020 #37
Well they starved the Irish and went to war to force China to buy grantcart Jan 2020 #40
K&R 2naSalit Jan 2020 #5
Shorter version? Scarsdale Jan 2020 #6
US policy has been take a sledgehammer to nail every problem BSdetect Jan 2020 #7
US dishonorable dealings in Iran are connected to the very dirty oil & gas industry dlk Jan 2020 #8
Saudi Arabia. Oh the ones that attacked us on 9-11 and we said and did nothing to them. Them?? Evolve Dammit Jan 2020 #9
Genius...Brilliant! Perseus Jan 2020 #10
Bookmarking to show friends. broiles Jan 2020 #11
Along with newspaper clip, copy this to them... Duppers Jan 2020 #20
And... world wide wally Jan 2020 #13
Amazingly, this actual letter to the editor... RealityBasedNewYorkr Jan 2020 #14
Simply put, there are no "good guys" or "bad guys" in the region and that includes the US. paleotn Jan 2020 #15
Spot friggin On! Martin Eden Jan 2020 #21
Syrian conflict explained. moondust Jan 2020 #22
What I once referred to as Sherman A1 Jan 2020 #32
In other words, we have assimilated into the Middle East just fine. lunatica Jan 2020 #23
One method for better understanding the Middle East is.... KY_EnviroGuy Jan 2020 #24
A ton of errors were made after WW2 BigmanPigman Jan 2020 #30
The MIC needs a labratory for weapons development. OAITW r.2.0 Jan 2020 #27
Americans like -- or at least tolerate -- killing Muslims, sadly. Hoyt Jan 2020 #28
Kinda says it all! Paka Jan 2020 #31
WWII showed us that war Mr.Bill Jan 2020 #33
THIS ⬆️ JudyM Jan 2020 #38
I'm glad SOMEONE understands!!! panfluteman Jan 2020 #36

robbob

(3,538 posts)
2. Worst part?
Sat Jan 11, 2020, 10:45 AM
Jan 2020

That doesn’t even begin to scratch the surface regarding the USA’s rather shady dealings in the region, orchestrating the overthrow of democratically elected governments, installing brutal dictators, helping orchestrate the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait then using that invasion as a pretext to launch Desert Storm. All against the endless whining question “Why do they hate us so much???”.

2naSalit

(86,851 posts)
4. +1
Sat Jan 11, 2020, 11:04 AM
Jan 2020

I have to say, I have a +/- perception of Michael Moore and I totally disagree with him a good part of the time but last night he was on some show with Ali Velshi and what he had to say about this Irangate shit was so succinctly correct that I was impressed.

He reminded everyone that Iran has never attacked us. They purposely avoided casualties the other day with their strikes in Iraq; it was we who started the whole mess back in the early 1950s by taking their democracy away from them and making sure they don't get it ever since, yet they try to avoid war with us. And we keep calling them the evil of the world and insist they live the way WE think they should while supporting attacks from others in the region. And still, they are trying to avoid war with us, things were going well until I-MF45 showed up.

We're the ones who need regime change.

CrispyQ

(36,540 posts)
18. This is a little dated, but good reading.
Sat Jan 11, 2020, 01:16 PM
Jan 2020
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/US_Interventions_WBlumZ.html

They have more of his stuff on other pages. Blum is the author bin Laden said all westerners should read.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/blog/2006/jan/23/osamabinladen

snip...

In the last few days, Blum has also appeared on MSNBC's Countdown show, during which host Keith Olbermann asked him how he felt about the fact that bigger sales would be "the result of a recommendation of a mass murderer".

Blum replied that it did not bother him if he and Bin Laden shared a "deep resentment of certain aspects of US foreign policy", and went on later in the interview to set out his theories a little more fully:

Basically it's US foreign policy which creates anti-American terrorists. It's the things we do to the world. It's not, as the White House tells us, that they hate our freedom and democracy. That's just propaganda. They hate our foreign policy. They hate what we do to them. The bombings and the invasions and the occupations and the torture and a whole bunch of other things. And if what I have in my book can lead to changes in our foreign policy, that would be the purpose I'm looking for.

OhNo-Really

(3,985 posts)
17. Iranian Nuclear Threat Missing Context: US Sold Iran Its 1st Reactor! Jan 17, 2012
Sat Jan 11, 2020, 01:03 PM
Jan 2020

Written because every election year Iran is rolled out to scare or thrill the right wing voters. Or so it seems.

https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2012/1/17/1055597/-

Howard Zinn’s book History of America makes it clear the we installed brutal leaders worldwide and built this country on the native & slave blood soaked land.

Confessions of an Economic Hit Man exposes the corporations behind the scenes pushing for assignations and regime changes.

The Dulles brothers & Kissinger geopolitics were ruinous in the long run in many ways.

People call themselves patriotic yet fail to understand and exercise their civic duty.

Blowback is inevitable!

Duppers

(28,127 posts)
19. 1953 to be exact...
Sat Jan 11, 2020, 02:25 PM
Jan 2020
The 1953 Iranian coup d'état, known in Iran as the 28 Mordad coup d'état, was the overthrow of the democratically elected Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh in favour of strengthening the monarchical rule of Mohammad Reza Pahlavi on 19 August 1953, orchestrated by the United States under the name TPAJAX Project or "Operation Ajax" and the United Kingdom, under the name "Operation Boot". It was the first covert action of the United States to overthrow a foreign government during peacetime.


Wikipedia

grantcart

(53,061 posts)
40. Well they starved the Irish and went to war to force China to buy
Sun Jan 12, 2020, 11:26 AM
Jan 2020

opium so that they could get hold to buy tea from India.

Scarsdale

(9,426 posts)
6. Shorter version?
Sat Jan 11, 2020, 12:06 PM
Jan 2020

They have oil. WE want that oil. The rich greedy people in the US want to be even richer, and WARS are a great way to get rich. Just send other people's young family members to fight and come back in body bags, or dismembered. Just read that the old politicians are coming out on TV, supporting this action, since they are lobbyists for defense contractors. Joe Lieberman is one. Cheney was on TV the other day, looking like death warmed over. He was never one to shy away from any war that HE could profit from. "We the people" have zero say in what happens in this present government. We are just pawns. Pay taxes, so the first family of cretins can drain the
treasury, and what is left will go to make WAR.

dlk

(11,582 posts)
8. US dishonorable dealings in Iran are connected to the very dirty oil & gas industry
Sat Jan 11, 2020, 12:15 PM
Jan 2020

We conspired to overthrow a democratically elected prime minister, Mosaddegh, and installed the leader of our choosing in his place. America’s hands are far from clean in the Middle East and we have been playing dirty ever since so private oil and gas companies can rake in their $billions in private profits.

Evolve Dammit

(16,783 posts)
9. Saudi Arabia. Oh the ones that attacked us on 9-11 and we said and did nothing to them. Them??
Sat Jan 11, 2020, 12:19 PM
Jan 2020

The Bin Laden family, who was allowed to leave the US when no other aircraft were allowed to fly. Yeah, I remember. "American Adventurism." That's all it is. Our troops and vets deserve(ed) so much more. Like the truth for once?

Duppers

(28,127 posts)
20. Along with newspaper clip, copy this to them...
Sat Jan 11, 2020, 02:35 PM
Jan 2020

A bit easier to read: Aubrey Bailey's ‘Clear As Mud’:

"Are you confused by what is going on in the Middle-East? Let me explain. We support the Iraqi government in its fight against Islamic State (IS/ISIL/ISIS). We don’t like IS but IS is supported by Saudi Arabia whom we do like. We don’t like President Assad in Syria. We support the fight against him, but not IS, which is also fighting against him.

“We don’t like Iran, but the Iranian government supports the Iraqi gov’t against IS. So, some of our friends support our enemies and some of our enemies are our friends, and some of our enemies are fighting our other enemies, whom we don’t want to lose, but we don’t our enemies who are fighting our enemies to win.

“If the people we want to defeat are defeated, they might be replaced by people we like even less. And, all this was started by us invading a country to drive out terrorists who weren’t actually there until we went in to drive them out – do you understand now?”

14. Amazingly, this actual letter to the editor...
Sat Jan 11, 2020, 12:50 PM
Jan 2020

....is from 2014 (!!)
The more things change, the more they stay the same

paleotn

(17,989 posts)
15. Simply put, there are no "good guys" or "bad guys" in the region and that includes the US.
Sat Jan 11, 2020, 12:53 PM
Jan 2020

Or any region for that matter. There are only people. People of varying shades of good and bad that vary situationally and over time. Hell, even where stuff falls on the good / bad spectrum depends on who you ask.

Sherman A1

(38,958 posts)
32. What I once referred to as
Sat Jan 11, 2020, 09:33 PM
Jan 2020

Political Spaghetti when I was doing a similar chart to explain a non profit with whom I worked and the who liked who and who would work with who.

KY_EnviroGuy

(14,496 posts)
24. One method for better understanding the Middle East is....
Sat Jan 11, 2020, 04:34 PM
Jan 2020

to get a map, erase all current borders and state names, then start studying the history of various areas with regard to empires, traditional tribes, sectarian settlements and zones, and movements of populations with time.

One might reach a moderate level of understanding in one human lifetime of study.......

Seriously, it does help the amateur like myself to realize that current borders (mostly imposed by imperialistic nations) don't hold the same value and meaning as ours do. Traditional tribal or past empire zones and historical settlement areas in many cases may be far more important to these people. Adding to this head-spinner is the mix of races and religions.

It's unfortunate our population has so little knowledge and understanding of this part of the world, considering the human and physical capital we've invested over many decades.

BigmanPigman

(51,642 posts)
30. A ton of errors were made after WW2
Sat Jan 11, 2020, 07:52 PM
Jan 2020

and dividing up countries' new borders based on a straight edge ruler is one of them That is not the way to do it.

OAITW r.2.0

(24,679 posts)
27. The MIC needs a labratory for weapons development.
Sat Jan 11, 2020, 06:21 PM
Jan 2020

It was VietNam in the 60s/70s. It's the ME in the 90's through present.

Mr.Bill

(24,334 posts)
33. WWII showed us that war
Sat Jan 11, 2020, 09:53 PM
Jan 2020

can lift us out of a depression and bring us prosperity. Korea showed us we didn't even have to win. Vietnam showed us it didn't even matter if we lost. The Middle East is showing us the war never has to end. We have an economy built around weapons and war. It's all about money.

To bad we never learned we could have that same prosperity, probably even more if we had put our efforts into education and health care. If we could have spent our money on those things instead of waging war we would all have masters degrees and live to be 125.

JudyM

(29,294 posts)
38. THIS ⬆️
Sun Jan 12, 2020, 09:37 AM
Jan 2020

We need to prioritize actual societal improvement. Which means changing our politics, IMO. Stop going along with the MIC-led agenda which is retrogressing humanity.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Clear As Mud