people's healthcare away.

you don't go to 'visit' somebody - and then turn the visit into a conversational combat zone. Free speech kind of takes second place to basic good manners and hospitality. Your wife was trying to gently steer you in the right direction - and you were intent on doing your belligerent "I'm right" and "I have a right" thing. Not in somebody else's home, for god's sake! And not to the point of being told to leave! There's some obvious boundary issues blinking a big fat warning light here. Listen to your wife next time. Or perhaps just refrain from visiting? If it seems likely that 'free exchange of ideas' is not really welcome (as it certainly wasn't in this situation!) - and the pursuit of such is just likely to lead to similar unpleasantness. Might be time to just cut your losses?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I tried to speak. I stopped talking and went into myself. It took a long time to get over it, and my self-worth and self-esteem was badly affected. I still have a lot of feelings of inadaquacy, but I am improving. So I appreciate your response. I feel sensitive to being silenced. It's not something I try to do to others. Sometimes, I just want to go back to my own world where I have no voice. So, I have issues. I have to also recognize that my wife has her own issues, her own insecurities. The Maga is my wife's ex-sister-in-law. She's the mother of my wife's neice who she loves dearly and wants to be able to see. She doesn't want any falling out. Maybe I should have explained in the OP, but it is a little more complex than a random MAGA situation.

You explained it fine. You deserve to have a voice. Do not EVER think you don't. You did the right thing.

You have a voice now. And we hear you. Keep talking.

have ever tried to stop anyone speaking in my own home or elsewhere. Not once. Not my wife, or a MAGA, or anyone else. Not one time in my life. I can say that with all honesty. That isn't who I am. But I take on board what you say and have to consider that other people may feel threatened by views that are different to theirs.

You tell your wife that she NEVER tells you that you have no right to speak your mind or that is the end of your marriage.

I am not sorry to say that you have a right to your opinions, and no one, NO ONE, including your wife has a right to say anything different.

I am so sorry this happened to you. I am more sorry that your wife seems to think she controls you. I would say that this marriage is already over. But that is up to you to decide. If it were me, I would be out immediately. But I am not you.

each other. I accept I have room for improvement and my wife does, but we are bonded by an unbreakable love. I get what you are saying and this is something that has happened before, but it is a very rare situation.

christ. This is going to end well.

Assuming he loves his wife and respects her (which is the ideal relationship goal), they should have a talk about this.

The answer may be just to not go with wife to visit these relatives if they're too at odds politically. That's okay. But if his wife is telling him he's being rude in another person's house, and he appreciates her POV, maybe he should take it into consideration.

are genuinely counseling you to LEAVE YOUR WIFE - supposedly because she is trying to maintain some sort of relationship with MAGA relatives. I hope you realize how completely over the top and idiotic this type of advice is. Please don't listen to this brand of nonsense. You've also provided a little more information here regarding yourself and back issues etc. - and that is quite helpful. It's quite likely that you do have some situational social acumen and boundary issues. And I bet you're the first to admit so. There's also some fairly good chance that your wife might have come up slightly short on expectations and support - particularly as she is aware of your own struggles. She might have been trying too hard to appease and be the congenial peace maker, when she might have done better to be a little more supportive of you.

But having said that - I'd be 100 times more likely to think of your wife having your best interests and emotional well being at heart - than a bunch a random bozos on an internet chat board. Forget the nonsense about dumping her. (Ye Gods! What a load of rubbish!) She's on your side. (and she might have been able to help you smooth out this current situation, if you'd been doing a little better job of listening to her) But even if she was completely wrong here - you work things out first with her. Explain the hurt feelings arising on both sides, even if that was not what anyone wanted or intended. (meaning you and your spouse - the MAGAT relatives may well be completely beyond the pale, but we really don't care about them at this point) And after that - you can maybe proceed on to how you will approach future social occasions with the relatives (MAGA and otherwise) - if you in fact chose to. Lots of people go through this balancing act, and most of them are frankly going to tell you that it isn't always easy and smooth sailing. There's some give and take involved and that's why it's referred to as a 'balancing act' - and not a town hall meeting or a mud wrestling contest. And with some, people decide it's still worth making the effort - while with others, the balance sheet tends toward, "Eh .. maybe we'll send Uncle Ernie a Christmas card and subscription to Field and Stream this year .. "

But, in any event. Wishing you well - hope you get over your respective hurt feelings. And get square with your wife!

Talk to and listen to your wife. Not us. (Unless your wife is, indeed a toxic and abusive person. Then the calculus changes.).

I just kept my mouth shut? Yes. Would it have been easier if I was just silenced? Yes. Would it have been easier if I was compliant and just sat there like a passive child? Yes? Do I regret the way things went? Yes. Would I have changed anything, now I have had time to reflect? Yes. I wouldn't have raised my voice and I would have said calmly, "Please don't bully me.," to both my wife and the host. Because my behavior has become a major talking point to complain about, and I am the villain. Yes, me! The guy who is usually so nice, often reads poems I write for the host's special occassions, brought flowers and gifts, always so courteous, but I am the bad guy. I could have avoided that.

That is all

the black and white thinking.

You're not a villain.

Were you rude? I don't know. I wasn't there. We can all be rude sometimes, especially if we feel passionately about a topic and we feel we aren't being heard.

You're married. Under the assumption that you love and respect your wife, have an honest conversation with her about what went down. And please consider counseling, especially if you have trouble communicating openly and honestly with your wife.

It sounds like there is a big ball of tangled yarn to unspool here. You're not a villain. They're not villains. You're all humans who got caught up in uncomfortable feelings. Your healthy relationship with your wife is most important here. For her maintaining a relationship with her in-law and niece is important. You guys can work out how to make that happen without it impeding on you.

I hope that came through fairly clearly.

A pretty decent guy that, in his own words, contributed significantly to an ugly social contretemps. Certainly not alone - obviously plenty other blame to spread around here. But, frankly yes, you "could have avoided" much of that - through an adjustment in your own behavior. (just as thousands have, going before you) And I hope you're a big enough person to at least come forward with a healthy "Oops", for the part you played in this. Don't doubt that you came away with your share of bruises - and probably to some extent unfairly, or at least not solely at fault. But in the end playing the 'victim card' doesn't square well with either your character or your actions. You're bigger than that. And you did play a part here.

And I hope you made a big effort for Valentine's day. Keep at it.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

wife, flowers, gifts, dinner etc. Do I feel like a victim? Yes! Am I seen as the victim? No. I am seen as being out of control. Did I let my emotions run away? Yes. Do I think I did anything wrong? Yes. Was I a jerk? Yes. Should I have been silenced? No. Do I need to just get over it and move on? Yes. I appreciate your post. These comments collectively have helped me pit it in perspective,

You and your wife are gonna be alright. Wishing you both well going forward. Peace, man.

If the OP kept bringing up and pushing touchy subjects, that would be one thing. But if this person they were visiting started, say, pontificating MAGA talking points or running down Biden and Democrats, I see no obligation for someone to just sit back and take it quietly, offering no response or counterargument whatsoever, even if it is someone else's home.

was in Europe. I tried to say the points I mentioned in the OP. Three short sentences was all I was trying to say.

Not like going out of your way to stir up trouble.

Too bad you couldn't avoid the gathering.

I worked with one guy that we said only had "argussions". Arguments disguised as discussions.

The problem is that magats see everything as zero sum: them against everyone else EXCEPT the rich who skimmed off 90% or more of everything so that peons can fight over the remainder.

and in the middle of nowhere and pitch black, no street lights. She picked me up in the car and soon the conversation turned bad and I yelled that she had no respect for me and told her to stop the car and I got out. Anyway, it doesn't change how much I love her, and she picked me up again five minutes later. I'm not proud of anything I have done, just very upset.

For getting out of the car. Good for you and stand your ground. Stay strong. I know lots of ladies who would love a guy like you.

Why? Because you stood up for yourself. That means you have standards that you will not compromise. You did the right thing. If your wife doesn't see that, then she is a fool. You are a good man.

I made my point, and we made up ready for a romatic Valentine's Day.

Went to a Thanksgiving brunch given by some rich dude. For unknown reasons my wife and I drove separately. Apparently, he recruited computer help and I was intrigued. I don't think he expected it for free, and I may have been retired or consulting ( in Silicon Valley, that's what you do when age locks you out of jobs). My wife was royally upset that I even considered it, and it was my line of business.

There was a party at a friend of her family later. I just went home instead. ( nice people). I later drove there with crappy or no GPS. It was OK, but it was the worst (Thanksgiving) game in 49er history. Lost by a ton to Seattle, making it 2014. Richard Sherman and Russell Wilson slaughtered them at home and Sherman famously ate turkey afterwards on the 49er 50 yard line. I'll edit later with a pic.

A pretty crappy day. As far as spats, time smoothed them over as we were busy raising our daughter in shifts. (Nurse hours)

Your incident was worse, but I feel what you were going through. I hope that things settle back to happy, and that you can work out a way to avoid confrontations with the cult. The best I've read here is that one can shut them up, but they are entirely about confrontation, to bolster the idiot lies and conspiracy theories they are fed.

Leaving as you did was understandable but I sure didn't start to walk home. I had a car. (I don't think pedestrians are allowed on the San Mateo Bridge. )

Woulda, coulda, shoulda are not helpful, compared to "how can we handle things better?"

Perhaps a taxi, to exit magat world, or better, work out a way to avoid such situations and agree that your relationship is way more important than tangling with porcupines, who never really win, but can inflict damage, which is the entire purpose of the cult. Revenge against an imaginary conspiracy to cover up their own failures.

I hope you win by working out in advance only to venture into agreeable situations. Again, your relationship is more important than any "etiquette"

I hope you two can agree on that priority. Eyes on the prize. Everything else is less important.

Bad hosts, anyway. Their priority was wrong and a good host should have steered away from politics. Even the worst football game ever beats politics in a social setting.

BTW, the 49ers snacked Seattle last Thanksgiving at their place. But for naught. Oh well.

around her family as they are MAGA as they are so easily triggered. She's pretty much not interested in what is happening in America, Doesn't even know the Republican position on healthcare. This is the first time I have ever tried to say anthing related to politics at this host's house. Obviously, I regret the way things went because I am now portrayed as the bad guy and they did absolutely nothing wrong into trying to shut me up.

That's silly.

Because obviously you weren't.

Stressing and arguing with your wife & jumping out of the car because you visit someone who from the start has a different option than you.

Very reactive behavior.

bullied and not being allowed to speak. I couldn't even say what I wanted to say. I have to look at my own behavior, and regret the way things went, but should I be the downtrodden husband who has no voice and just be quiet when told?

The trump 3 virus causes inflammation in that tissue, presses on some nerves.....

These goobers would kick over a beggar's cup for sport, and steal the proceeds for spite!

May I suggest that you both go to couples marriage counseling? I suspect that might help you both.

And stay away from those people!

Good luck, on all fronts.

Remember the old saying: Never wrestle with a pig. You just get dirty and the pig enjoys it.

It would show that a wife is more loyal to her husband than to a raving magat.

I was trying to speak.

I mean I would have left with my husband who was being treated disrespectfully by being thrown out.

Your wife did not back you up? I get not wanting confrontation, but WTF? If my partner ever did that, we would be more than done.

No, you are not to blame. If I were you, I would start filing for divorce. And I do not say that lightly.

They can say whatever they want but we are supposed to shut up and just listen to them without being able to engage in the conversation or speak our minds.

Need to have civil conversations, find points of agreement, and work from there.

it blew up.

Lots of factors to weigh here.
I am into avoidance and would definitely choose not to go to a MAGA's house, if only for the sake of the marriage.

"Nobody cares what you have to say," and "Stop it!" I couldn't even get through through three sentences.

I wouldn't behave the way you did in someone else's home.

IMHO, you acted like an ass and were right fully told to leave.

are you joking?

You didn't read the sign at the front door!

"Danger!
You are entering MAGAT territory!
Suspend all reason and logic, it does not apply here."

Your wife read the sign, obviously.

Your 'facts' are not their facts.
'Logic', 'facts', 'reality' . . . offensive to some.

Honestly, did you expect any other reaction?
If MAGATs were susceptible to those things, they'd not be MAGATs!

EDIT:
In retrospect, you did the right thing.
But it got you nowhere. So next time, if there is one, don't bother.

One common feature of MAGATs - they spout their insane non-logic at anyone standing still as if to seek confirmation.
Do not engage.
Be non-committal - 'Oh really? Haven't thought about the topic, but do carry on!'

your wife.

holy crap, batman!

seems like wife should have made excuse for her to leave or bow out when you left.

sorry you had a rough time of things. my advice is to stay away from people like that (magats). they are touchy, lying, oh so full of shit weasels. generally speaking.

One evening of drama is a blip in a good marriage.

My guess is that you are passionate about healthcare, having grown up in a very different, and probably more successful healthcare system.

Another good guess - you value your relationship with your wife above the relationship you have with Mr. Magat.

So, it's time to change your strategy. Ignore the ignoramus, and choose to spend more time with others who are of a like mind. He (or she) is not worth your serenity, so cut him/her/they loose. Somewhere, a village is searching for their idiot. They need to find him.

I can’t imagine why anyone would want to. I mean, “just to go and talk with a magat”. We’ve long known they don’t care if anyone has health care as long as they have theirs. They’re selfish people by nature.

If my wife said let’s go visit a magat I’d have to say fuck that, you go have a good time.

your argument was fine, but you were a guest in their house. Why talk politics at all? You married your wife; I hope you respect her opinion. If she asked you to let it go, why didn't you?

I have some MAGA childhood friends and family members. While our friendships have cooled a bit, when I do see them (at reunions, etc.), I avoid politics and genuinely try to find a connection (family, books, movies, fun stuff). Those are the humanizing threads that will help us realize that we are, indeed, connected and want what is best for our own communities. And those are the things that will make them respect you more and more likely to listen to what you have to say if the topics come up organically in a non-combative way.

Combativeness usually closes minds.

ETA: This is going to be really unpopular in this thread, but referring to people as Magats is dehumanizing and terrible. We absolutely need to defeat trumpism and the MAGA world. One of the things that is most upsetting about the MAGA movement is the dehumanization and divisiveness it creates. It pains me to see people embracing the dehumanization here.

ETA#2: Any advice to leave your wife is insane. From reading the entire thread, it sounds like you have things to figure out together, and a good counsellor may be in order. Do not listen to people telling you to leave your wife. There may have been disrespect bc of her own insecurities, but that's why a counsellor would be great for you. To dig into those reasons and have you guys face where you're challenged. Internet advice to get divorced bc of this is not helpful at all.

from time to time.

I would not feel bad about speaking your mind. it sounds like the MAGA was not afraid to speak their mind, so you should speak yours as well.

You did better than I would have.

I would have urinated on their floor to assert dominance.

Ass first is going to be my new motto!

Is attempting a civil discourse with a lobotomy recipient.

I think no matter how "right" you are in your beliefs, I think it's a bad idea (in general) to ignore your wife's request.

My guess is that the argument you had with the MAGA is done, but there's a good chance you planted a seed for some lasting hostility at home.

wasn't able to. There was no agument about politics, because I had a barage of "nobody cares" and "stop" as I was talking, from the host and my wife. Nobody was arguing against me, but I wasn't being allowed to speak. I was actually talking to the host's adult daughter (my wife's niece) She said she didn't know anything about John McCain and healthcare, but she met him on a plane once. Anyway, should I have just shut up? Maybe I should have. It would be a lot easirt.

On the side where I felt like I wasn't being allowed to speak...

And on the side where I didn't want to hear what someone else had to say.


I think (and I wasn't there, so it's obviously possible that I am wrong) that the other people present simply didn't want to turn a social visit into a debate.

and opt out of talking to them, by finding a quiet place to read.

It isn't worth the time to argue with MAGAts.

I quietly excuse myself and find a place to sit for a while. No one has ever said a word about it, probably because they recall previous arguments. I just don't engage with people whose minds can not be changed. There is no point.

One of my sisters-in-law is a left-behinder. I can talk to her about some things, but she's sure that Trump is bringing the rapture and that makes her giddy with excitement. I have to walk away...because that is nuts.

Mitt Romney comes close, but he's far to the right of Ronald F-ing Reagan.

Not crazy, but not particularly reasonable either.

at all.... and moreso, one who openly insults you?

That'd be an issue to me.

I would never be friends with someone who openly insulted my spouse.

when I was being silenced by my wife and the host. That's when I should have just kept my cool and not raised my voice to be heard.

And yeah, probably should have moderated your tone, but fuck me.... you should never have to tolerate being abused, and your wife shouldn't tolerate it either.

My best advice, Doodley, is to avoid any situation where you have to be in a gathering with these types of people.


Seriously, I had posted an extremely stressful situation in GD back in 2018. My fellow DU-ers made suggestions to me that I not answer my door to that person anymore. I took that advice.


I also stopped hanging out with any and all blood and in-law relatives that swing MAGA. It makes life less stressful. I completely avoid any gatherings where these situations can happen since it's happened to me more than once.


Life is too short for dealing with this bullshit. I'm calling it exactly what it is.


Learn from this and also do or buy something nice for yourself. I'm serious. You got this!

DU is here if you ever need to talk or vent.

...I would have cheered you on, left with you, and bought you a few drinks on the way home.

Who defends kicking millions of poor off healthcare?

There is simply no good-faith standard in their arguments, while their victories are self-defined by bumper-sticker philosophies and a head fully buried in the sand.

So were it me in that position, I'd blame myself for just engaging with the unreasonable expecting anything other than the inevitable result, which never rises to meet the effort it would take to speak rationally to the irrational, and speak honestly to the dishonest.

It would be nothing more than a concrete waste of my time. In my case, I'd be to blame. Maybe your goal was something completely different though.

and for trying to debate a stump when you did so.

covid yet.

you should not feel bad because you care, but you might feel bad because your wife clearly does not

I am surprised at your wife’s reaction. I would never belittle my spouse in any situation in front of somebody else. If it is an awkward social situation, the best is to both leave.

no purpose and it always ends badly.

But there is no point in arguing with a brick wall.

My therapist used to say it was about "the manner with which"; how one speaks to others. I've tried to take that to heart.

Never yell. Know when to stop; when your partner is clearly uncomfortable is a good clue to take it down a notch.