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Nevilledog

(51,399 posts)
Thu Apr 11, 2024, 12:48 PM Apr 11

A Hobby Lobby plot twist marks a win for abortion rights in Indiana

https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/indiana-abortion-ruling-hobby-lobby-rcna146844

The U.S. Supreme Court 2014 decision in Burwell v. Hobby Lobby allowed religious, anti-abortion employers to refuse to cover contraception in their employee health insurance. But an extraordinary April 4 appellate court decision in Indiana turned the conservative Supreme Court’s landmark Hobby Lobby decision into a winning argument for abortion rights.

The unanimous ruling from the three-judge panel, which found that the state’s abortion ban burdens the religious beliefs of those whose faiths permit abortions, signals the possibility of a long overdue shift in the conservative bias of religious freedom jurisprudence. It also signals the emergence of a partial, albeit untested, argument for people needing an abortion in states that have banned it.

The Indiana case was brought in 2022 by five anonymous plaintiffs of faith and the group Jewish Hoosiers for Choice. They’re seeking a religious exemption from the abortion ban Indiana enacted following the U.S. Supreme Court’s reversal of Roe v. Wade that year. They said the ban violates their rights under the state’s Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA), which, like the federal law the owners of Hobby Lobby successfully relied on to avoid providing contraception coverage, protects religious objectors from laws that “substantially burden” their “sincerely held” religious beliefs.

The plaintiffs argued that their religious doctrine teaches that a fetus is part of a woman’s body, not an independent being with its own rights. The abortion ban, then, violates their religious freedom to decide whether to have an abortion. This argument, which undergirds similar religious freedom lawsuits across the country, including in Kentucky, Missouri and Florida, is a profound pushback against the Christian right’s attempts to assert their position, that life begins at conception and that a fetus is a person, as the only genuine religious belief.

*snip*
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A Hobby Lobby plot twist marks a win for abortion rights in Indiana (Original Post) Nevilledog Apr 11 OP
Wow. progressoid Apr 11 #1
IKR ..didn't see that coming prodigitalson Apr 12 #23
I did really and wondered why it took so long, as a fetus is not a human until its first breath, LiberalArkie Apr 12 #25
I always wondered why we let them get away with the "it's alive" argument. CrispyQ Apr 12 #28
I think the party was hoping to bring these suburban housewives into the Democratic Party. LiberalArkie Apr 12 #29
This bumps against why we have freedom of/from religion in the first place. pandr32 Apr 11 #2
Reinforces the reasons that the founders thought religion and the state should be separate. erronis Apr 11 #4
Also the founders, unlike some politicians today, didn't assemble Mr.Bill Apr 11 #8
Cue the outrage! charliea Apr 11 #3
And so the religious wars become more visible. Biophilic Apr 11 #5
Wondering what the Church of Cannabis stance Emile Apr 11 #6
Or the Satanic Temple sdfernando Apr 11 #14
Or... catbyte Apr 11 #17
I can tell you the Satanic Temple stance. NanaCat Apr 11 #18
I love it!! Chili Pepper Apr 11 #7
This is really excitingly good news!! h2ebits Apr 11 #9
I knew this had to be fought on these grounds. There *are* religions that support women's life & health Hekate Apr 11 #10
How do you like them apples?! StarryNite Apr 11 #11
K&R nt AKwannabe Apr 11 #12
The religion I created, Liquidianism, holds Dr. T Apr 11 #13
With each passing year that pendulum slowly moves to the left. SleeplessinSoCal Apr 11 #15
Oopsie. rubbersole Apr 11 #16
I went thru this in a deposition Puppyjive Apr 11 #19
Touche. cstanleytech Apr 11 #20
Let's get rid of their God Damned tax exemptions. vanlassie Apr 11 #21
Hear, hear! Ligyron Apr 11 #22
If I understand the meaning of this plea..... JohnnyRingo Apr 12 #24
Glad to hear it Farmer-Rick Apr 12 #26
It's about time everyone can practice their own religion on their own. rickford66 Apr 12 #27

LiberalArkie

(15,747 posts)
25. I did really and wondered why it took so long, as a fetus is not a human until its first breath,
Fri Apr 12, 2024, 09:20 AM
Apr 12

until then it is just another part of a woman.

According to a 2017 Pew survey, 83% of American Jews believe that abortion should be legal in all or most cases. All the non-Orthodox movements have statements supporting reproductive rights, and even ultra-Orthodox leaders have resisted anti-abortion measures that do not allow religious exceptions.

This is a good read:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/theres-more-than-one-jewish-view-to-answer-the-question-of-when-life-begins/

CrispyQ

(36,619 posts)
28. I always wondered why we let them get away with the "it's alive" argument.
Fri Apr 12, 2024, 11:40 AM
Apr 12

Yeah, & so is algae.

Pregnancy tissue at six weeks.


Pregnancy tissue at nine weeks.


These do not have a heartbeat.

LiberalArkie

(15,747 posts)
29. I think the party was hoping to bring these suburban housewives into the Democratic Party.
Fri Apr 12, 2024, 12:48 PM
Apr 12

I look at it now as a lost cause. The suburbs were originally the white flight people who wanted to be away from those "OTHER" people. They formed their own schools and churches and because they were in their own little bubble they all ended up thinking alike.

erronis

(15,526 posts)
4. Reinforces the reasons that the founders thought religion and the state should be separate.
Thu Apr 11, 2024, 01:13 PM
Apr 11

They were a hell of a lot smarter than some of the current breed or RW nutjobs. They knew that if you allowed them (religion/state) to become intertwined then both would be weakened.

Mr.Bill

(24,394 posts)
8. Also the founders, unlike some politicians today, didn't assemble
Thu Apr 11, 2024, 01:37 PM
Apr 11

in Philadelphia to steal everything they could get their hands on.

charliea

(260 posts)
3. Cue the outrage!
Thu Apr 11, 2024, 01:09 PM
Apr 11

"It's a Christian nation! Those other religions are baby killers!"

Hopefully it won't have that much impact this time...

Biophilic

(3,770 posts)
5. And so the religious wars become more visible.
Thu Apr 11, 2024, 01:13 PM
Apr 11

I wanted to say, and so the religious wars start, but they've been there all the time. Now the gloves will come off.

NanaCat

(1,692 posts)
18. I can tell you the Satanic Temple stance.
Thu Apr 11, 2024, 06:53 PM
Apr 11

It's right there in 'seven fundamental tenets,' equivalent of the 10 Commandments:

III
One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone.

And indirectly here:

V
Beliefs should conform to one's best scientific understanding of the world. One should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit one's beliefs.

https://thesatanictemple.com/blogs/the-satanic-temple-tenets/there-are-seven-fundamental-tenets

h2ebits

(653 posts)
9. This is really excitingly good news!!
Thu Apr 11, 2024, 02:09 PM
Apr 11

It is my greatest hope that every other religion in each state of our union will follow suit with more lawsuits.

Hoisted on their own petard, I would say.

Hekate

(91,186 posts)
10. I knew this had to be fought on these grounds. There *are* religions that support women's life & health
Thu Apr 11, 2024, 02:12 PM
Apr 11

This is not the only lawsuit going forward, and I very much hope we see similar results in the others. Candles lit. Fingers crossed.

The plaintiffs argued that their religious doctrine teaches that a fetus is part of a woman’s body, not an independent being with its own rights. The abortion ban, then, violates their religious freedom to decide whether to have an abortion. This argument, which undergirds similar religious freedom lawsuits across the country, including in Kentucky, Missouri and Florida, is a profound pushback against the Christian right’s attempts to assert their position, that life begins at conception and that a fetus is a person, as the only genuine religious belief.

Dr. T

(97 posts)
13. The religion I created, Liquidianism, holds
Thu Apr 11, 2024, 02:31 PM
Apr 11

a belief that alcohol blends with the evil in your body and is flushed down the toilet. Does this mean my bar tab is tax exempt?

SleeplessinSoCal

(9,221 posts)
15. With each passing year that pendulum slowly moves to the left.
Thu Apr 11, 2024, 02:36 PM
Apr 11

But the completely corrupt Republican Conservative exposes itself as anything but. They'll grab that pendulum with both fists to prevent a healthy democracy from thriving..

As reassuring as this decision is, having to rely on actual good judgement is harder than ever. They realized how the natural wisdom achieved with age was against their recently discovered primary principles of hating women and immigrants. So they found the most corrupt justices, who lied under oath and make up the majority on the SCOTUS. And there are many more like them - stunted would-be intellectuals - waiting in the wings.

Puppyjive

(512 posts)
19. I went thru this in a deposition
Thu Apr 11, 2024, 06:59 PM
Apr 11

My pregnancy bills were not getting paid. The company did not cover pregnancy. They forced me into a different plan with less benefit when I became pregnant. The two plans couldn't decide who should pay what bill. Before the birth, was I one person, or two? It was a god awful cluster.

JohnnyRingo

(18,715 posts)
24. If I understand the meaning of this plea.....
Fri Apr 12, 2024, 08:59 AM
Apr 12

They believe the fetus is part of the mother and not yet a separate entity.
Making abortion illegal would be like telling a person they aren't allowed to have their appendix removed. Or teeth pulled without due reason emanating from the govt.

Farmer-Rick

(10,262 posts)
26. Glad to hear it
Fri Apr 12, 2024, 10:08 AM
Apr 12

The Supremes and the anti abortion religiously insane chose their Christian religion's dogma to enforce as law.

But then ignored the fact that not everyone in the US are their kind of religion. Lots of societies and religions don't view an embryo or fetus as people with special rights to use a woman's body.

This sort of argument was bound to come up. I wonder how the Supremes will respond.

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