They are fairly persistent in showing their ass that way.

Just so we are clear…. You are willing to break the forum rules by name calling a portion of the userbase.

Those numbers are wrong (and they could be) but when someone asks you how many you think have been killed you have no answer. It almost seems if you are screaming "FAKE NEWS" and when someone asks you what it really is at least according to you, you have no answer. Great.

There is absolutely no way that Hamas govt, which controls everything, including media reports and propaganda, can be trusted. None of us have an answer as to the truth. It will require several independent and trusted entities to make an estimate, which still may be hard. But you choose to attack the post- why? You make it personal and why is that?

Don't hide behind "hamas numbers" and pretend kids are not being bombed.

You are putting forth lies that people are not acknowledging thousands of deaths. Everyone here knows there are thousands of deaths but no one here knows the actual magnitude.

Hamas is guilty of breaking Geneva convention by putting civilians in harms way. Israel is also guilty. This is meant to tear the world apart.

You are making personal accusations and spewing nastiness.
Have a peaceful evening.

regarding that is false. Do we? The answer to that is no, we don't. That is a separate point than whether they can be trusted which the answer to that is also no. Hamas will do what they think is advantageous to them, if that includes releasing numbers that are as true as possible they would do that. They would also do the inverse and inflate the numbers or even decrease them if that profited them.
Why would they release numbers that are true? 1-The amount of civilian deaths could inflame people around the world and help them. 2-They can be verified to a certain degree and are considered valid. "The United Nations and other international institutions and experts, as well as Palestinian authorities in the West Bank — rivals of Hamas — say the Gaza ministry has long made a good-faith effort to account for the dead under the most difficult conditions." "“The numbers may not be perfectly accurate on a minute-to-minute basis,” said Michael Ryan, of the World Health Organization’s Health Emergencies Program. “But they largely reflect the level of death and injury.” In previous wars, the ministry’s counts have held up to U.N. scrutiny, independent investigations and even Israel’s tallies. "
Hamas are terrorist, no doubt about that. But there is data out there that suggests that this could indeed be correct numbers and just falling back to everything they say is false because they are terrorists is just not true. Trust them, no. Use history to see if they may be telling the truth on this subject, yes. Just saying that your enemy is always wrong is a very dangerous place to go. It leaves you open to what and who your enemy really is and their capabilities. Are the numbers correct? Probably, based off of the previous times they have reported civilian deaths. But that is not a 100% certainty so realize that Hamas are terrorists and could be lying. Absent better sources and numbers I think its a fair track of what is happening there.
See? That is what you do when someone presents information that you don't agree with. You look into it. You see what the information is that backs up your point. You present it in a way that lets a conversation happen with it. Really, after all this information are you still saying that anything the Gaza ministry says is a lie?
I checked myself, I was good. I took a hard look, still good.
Thanks!

No evidence of inflated mortality reporting from the Gaza Ministry of Health


The Gaza MoH has historically reported accurate mortality data, with discrepancies between MoH reporting and independent United Nations analyses ranging from 1·5% to 3·8% in previous conflicts
.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext

You want to ignore the fact that huge numbers of women and children, who were in fact, innocent victims, have died in the unrestricted warefare that Israel is waging on the population of Gaza

Now, what is your estimate is it that no children have been killed, 20, 50, 100, 1000? How many do you think are acceptable and how many more do you think will be justified. If you are going to dispute numbers, provide alternative numbers and sources. I don't trust information coming from either HAMAS or from Israel because, as Churchill told us, "In wartime, truth is so precious that she should always be attended by a bodyguard of lies."

I won't give a pass on such dodges, because personally, my problem is that I couldn't tell the difference in a dead Palestinan child and a dead Israeli child; I value the lives of all children equally.

do it. I'll wait for numbers from people not terrorists.

You want to trust terrorists and their information, by all means, you do you.

The Chinese government says they don't supply fentanyl precursors, harvest organs, and don't brutalize the people in Xinjiang.
The Russian government says Ukraine started the war.
Trump says he's innocent of all charges.

Why not believe those proven liars too? Or is it because it's directed and Israel and Israel is the most evil place on Earth. I mean, if they would just lay down their arms and leave, there would be no problems.

You have no facts, so you have no standing to challenge other's numbers. I am done with you on this one, I have no desire to play dodge ball.

Do you think Israels response Absolves Hamas of being terrorists?

Hamas provoked a response (however over the top) by attacking civilians, murdering, rapping, beating, torture g and finally taking them hostage and upon doing so they went and hid behind colitizens in Gaza. None of these actions can be dismissed regardless of the over the top response by Israel. If I rattle a hornets nest and I get stung by every single hornet I can hate the hornets all I want, but it was I who trampled on their dwelling.

What Israel is doing is making war on the population of Gaza. Some people will not recognize that difference because to admit it would be an admission of the guilt of the Israeli government. It is a case of "Israel can do no wrong" regardless of what they do, because they are Israel.

So not only are you claiming these numbers are made up by Hamas you are also claiming the UN has no credibility. If the numbers are false as you claim everyone using these numbers are as untrustworthy as “the hamas elected gaza govermoment”. If the number were a thousand would you believe that? 2500? You don’t trust the UN so who do you trust? Or is the source less important than the message you want delivered?

that says that.

You are spewing nastiness to peaceful people.
No one is doubting that many have been killed by a govt that we want to see a leadership change. At the same time no one mentions that Hamas initiated this war with a 9/11 attack.
And what about the hostages? Their families? The victims? The victims who now are in mental institutions unable to deal with what they experienced? Where is your empathy for them? Or is it only ok to support the innocent civilians of Gaza?

But you keep doing you

I won’t excuse Israel but how much blame for the civilians deaths goes to Hamas for attacking civilians in Israel, then hosing behind civilians in Gaza and refusing to release the hostages? Surely there must be some responsibility on them. NO?

is just so honest, truthful, and humanistic. Ask the 1200 they slaughtered and took hostage.

But again, our Jewish blood is cheap.

instead of evading it?

Mortality reporting is a crucial indicator of the severity of a conflict setting, but it can also be inflated or under-reported for political purposes. Amidst the ongoing conflict in Gaza, some political parties have indicated scepticism about the reporting of fatalities by the Gaza Ministry of Health.

The Gaza MoH has historically reported accurate mortality data, with discrepancies between MoH reporting and independent United Nations analyses ranging from 1·5% to 3·8% in previous conflicts. A comparison between the Gaza MoH and Israeli Foreign Ministry mortality figures for the 2014 war yielded an 8·0% discrepancy.2
Public scepticism of the current reports by the Gaza MoH might undermine the efforts to reduce civilian harm and provide life-saving assistance.
Using publicly available information

we compared the Gaza MoH's mortality reports with a separate source of mortality reporting and found no evidence of inflated rates. We conducted a temporal analysis of cumulative-reported mortality within Gaza for deaths of Gazans as reported by the MoH and reported staff member deaths from the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA), from Oct 7 to Nov 10, 2023. These two data sources used independent methods of mortality verification, enabling assessment of reporting consistency.
We observed similar daily trends, indicating temporal consistency in response to bombing events until a spike of UNRWA staff deaths occurred on Oct 26, 2023, when 14 UNRWA staff members were killed, of whom 13 died in their homes due to bombings (figure). Subsequent attacks raised the UNRWA death rate while MoH hospital services diminished until MoH communications and mortality reporting collapsed on Nov 10, 2023. During this period, mortality might have been under-reported by the Gaza MoH due to decreased capacity. Cumulative reported deaths were 101 UNRWA staff members and 11?078 Gazans over 35 days (appendix p 3). By comparison, an average of 4884 registered deaths occurred per year in 2015–19 in Gaza.5

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext

are alive - that's why so many kids have their name and birthday written on their arms and legs. People on podcasts have said they check the list regularly to see if loved ones are dead or alive.

Thousand of dead babies on the list with their names and ages listed .You see this list online.

Then -we have all the amputations, blind kids, burned kids, etc. About 75,000 of Gazan's are
severely injured -so probably 40,000 or more are kids. The US should have a ship in Gaza to do rehab for these kids - they need treatment, prosthesis and wheelchairs. Can you even imagine a child losing their legs, having no wheelchair or no family?

Plus, the thousands under the rubble - could be as high as 10,000.

According to UNRWA, one in three children under 2 is severely malnourished. There is no infant formula, milk etc - so lots of newborns are dying because malnourished mothers can not breastfeed.

I know. . .in western civilization, our blood is, was, and always will be cheap.

What is the number? The number of harmed, slaughtered and raped and tortured Palestines is always higher.

Again, there's an anti-"Israel" protest at Columbia right now that tells me all I need to know where pro-Palestinian people stand.

And then there's the right wing "The Jews won't replace us."

Ignored.

It’s not black or white. Lines HAVE been crossed. Why would you apologize for killing children?

Thanks for bringing it up. They were guilty of qarcrimes on Oct 7th and they are and have been guilty of war crimes by hiding behind civilians and keeping hostages.

That’s messed up. I guess brown children’s lives don’t matter. Bless your heart!

I remember reading of tee shirts worn by some IDF. It had a picture of a pregnant Palestinian woman in the crosshairs with the words " Two for One".

No Oct 7, no war. It's that simple.

No Pearl Harbor, no Hiroshima or Nagasaki.

FAFO.

Last edited Tue Apr 23, 2024, 07:23 PM - Edit history (1)

nor am I doing an "Israel/Jews bad" thing, and I won't have you or anyone else characterize me that way.

The October 7 attack was a HORRENDOUS crime, in my opinion, and I know NO one on this board who disagrees with that. What I don't understand is the response to it, why the Israelis aren't narrowly targeting the PEPERPETRATORS instead of mowing down innocent women and kids.

Hamas uses schools and hospitals to hide munitions.

Germany torpedoed the Lusitania for the same reason in 1915. Britain used the cruise liner to put war supplies. Germany even warned not to get on because it will be torpedoed if located.

Same thing. Why don't anti-Israel people see this? Or is it that anything that rejects their narrative is ignored. "My mind is made up. . .don't confuse me with anything else."

This is what the right wing does.

Equating the two is like saying that being anti-Trump equals being anti-American. It doesn't work. Bye now.

You got called out, couldn't handle it, tried to save face, then ran away.

Peace.

It's Israel. As in the government of.

I guess Israel should just roll over and do nothing after 1200 of their people get slaughtered and the innocent civilians in Gaza celebrated on the streets.

This wouldn't have happened if Hamas didn't attack Israel. FAFO, Hamas!

Bit the American left hates Israel and that's all that matters. Their slaughtered people mean NOTHING.

I am sick of this. I'm tired of Jewish blood being cheap. I am less of a human worldwide because I am Jewish and I've lived in five countries and been to another 11.

Jewish children get killed by Hamas and it's Israel's fault because Hamas is fighting against the "apartheid." Israel fights back and "what about the children?" Where was your indignation when Elisa children got killed in 75 years of terrorist attacks?

That has nothing to do with the situation in Gaza, which you refuse to admit is am international crisis and disgrace. Because it is.

Also, an eye for an eye is not part of the rules of international warfare, as in, the actual laws.

" The casualties are not overwhelmingly women and children, and the majority may be Hamas fighters."

That is 100% not true, and you know it. The casualties are overwhelmingly civilians.

On October 6 they were all alive, as were the Israelis. What changed? Anybody want to hazard a guess?

There is no infrastructure left to pull out bodies from under the rubble.

Where were you the last 75 years when Hamas, the PLO, and Hezbollah killed Jewish children and raped Jewish women? The world and the American left seemed rather silent.

Again, Jewish blood is cheap.

remember the hospital Israel supposedly bombed and hundreds of lives were lost...didn't happen...it was a Hama missile and it hit the parking lot...

Is it still okay with you if the Israeli government kills even ONE child? ONE. CHILD.?

Thank you for showing your true colors.

Israel is wrong for everything.

Go join the protests at Columbia protesting Jews.

It is really gross, and it should be banned here.

And, you never answer questions, you only throw up strawmen HAMAS HAMAS HAMAS

...calling for the obliteration of hamas.

...I'm not a military strategist.

No, I did not say that..

There does seem to a problem with some discussions here on DU when things that people say are either misrepresented, twisted, taken out of context, or even attributed when they are not said.

Luckily, this a good community and people understand when mistakes are made and are also willing to correct them.

If a man rapes a woman and she kills him, did she go too far?

If a terrorist organization spends 75 years attacking a country, then one day kills 1200 over its people, it's the country's fault and their reaction to the brutality is wrong.

I wish you would think again.

...but I need to at least correct yours...

The situation with Israel and Gaza is more similar to a woman killing her rapist's entire neighborhood.

Not anymore. We're tired of it. And if I get "so you can slaughter others. . ." Oct 7th started it.

Pearl Harbor started WW2. Hiroshima and Nagaski ended. FAFO, MFers. FAFO.

Too bad Israel has become the left's punching bag . Those poor Hamas freedom fighters and the ones that celebrated Oct 7th in the streets of Gaza. Oh woah is them.

But us. . screw us. Our blood's been cheap for centuries. Now we hide our language is nice political language "Israel is wrong." When most Jews knows exactly what that means. . .all you have to do is look at USC and Columbia.

We Jews are tired of the BS and our blood being cheap. Where were you when we were slaughtered on Oct 7th? Don't answer. I don't care.

...but you're lashing out at the wrong person.

My rejection of this can from the Reuters article reporting it that says the UN is using numbers provided by the Hamas elected Gaza Government.

Which proven liars do you also believe? Xi Jinpng says only 80K died in Covid and zero-Covid worked. Believe that?
Putin says Ukraine started the war. Believe that?
Trump said he never knew Epstein. Believe that?

But Hamas is to believed because in your mind, it is confirmation that Israel is bad. Confirmation bias is a terrible thing.

Give me numbers not provided by Hamas.

That would be a fucking joke.

I trust nothing a terrorist, Republican, or Chinese communist party member says.

I would look out the window to see what color it really was.

Same reason we have been demonized for centuries.

Did you trust when Israel reported 1200 killed on Oct 7th or did they lie about that? After all, if those lying people said the sky was blue, you would look out the window to see what color it really was.

He has shit on every Democratic president that I can remember. He uses America for his own purposes. Netanyahu is in charge of Israel and he is leading them down a dark path. . He is Israel's face to the world.

Did you trust what they said on Oct 7? Or did they lie about it?

the US in matters of war you are talking about the administration in charge and the cabinet they have put together . I trust Israel's government about 10 7 as much as I trusted the US government when Bush and trump were in office. Do I trust Israel's government about 10 7 ? It happened and Netanyahu was warned about it in advance and did nothing to stop it. . So no, just as I didn't trust Bush . He too was warned about an attack in advance and did noting about it9 11.

Yet you believe Bibi had advance knowledge, which was info that came out of Israel.

So, anything that makes Israel look bad you trust. If it doesn't, you don't believe it.

Gotcha. Enough said. You keep moving goal posts and not answering a simple yes or no question.

I would like to say this isn't typical for those that attack Israel, but it is.

I don't trust Netanyahu or the IDF!

I also don't trust the US Supreme Court, or any spineless member of congress!

I guess when Israel reported Oct 7th, your immediate response was "bullshit. fake news" because you don't trust Bibi or the IDF.

However, how does that justify attacking Jewish students in the United States?

But just enough Americans enjoy seeing their anti Semitic sentiments said out loud. They aren't that different from the racists in the South during desegregation. I could see some of our fellow Americans screaming and yelling at Jewish grade school children for the fun of it. Sickos.

But completely avoids the question I asked.

in saying "It doesn't" justify attacking Jewish students here, but neither does speculating on the number of Jewish women raped by Hamas.

Hamas

How dare anyone criticize a “freedom fighting” organization like Hamas.

“But but GeNoCIde!11”

That is all.

Because hamas and other gazan terrorist groups love doing that .

https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-780613

"Parents, using their children as fucking sandbags". That's not "fucking" happening. Take a breath.
Eko.

what a sickening comment instead of blaming those
Responsible for killing those children are hike KNOWING they are killing children

and the world blames Israelis for not protecting them.

Remember, our blood is cheap and if we die, history has shown no one truly cares. But if we say enough is enough and fight back, we're wrong.

15,000 kids used as shields. That’s preposterous and Israel’s famous justification for genocide. Killing children won’t win the war.

Don't answer. I already know. . .like those protestors at USC and Columbia protesting Jewish students.

We're done. Blocked.

Duer for, but I won't, yet. Because well, we all know don't we?

You are repeating Fox News lies about the protestors at USC, Columbia, Yale, etc.
They are not protesting Jewish students.
They are protesting the deaths of Palestinians.

Israel. A nation surrounded by people that would just as soon see them wiped off the planet. Some nations leaders have actually said as much. Have listened to their neighbors threaten this shit for decades. DECADES. And these are people who had hundreds of thousands or people killed in the Holocaust. When someone attacks them the way that Hamas did there was never ever going to be any fucking around and if a “government” such as Hamas puts their own civilians in harms way, they should own it.It doesn’t absolve Usrael of their response but Hamas is putting their own civilians in harms way after provoking a war.

Israel almost had no choice but to attack harshly (I do not accept that they had to go this far) or they would just be sitting ducks, for everyone.

It seems to me that people think the only response Israel should have done was to try and go door to door trying to root out all of Hamas. That results only in many more Israelis getting killed. Why would Israel be required to give up more of it’s own lives? Hamas attacked a nation, promised to attack again (still to this day) and nobody seems to want to hold them accountable for the tactics they are using. The only response I hear is more Israelis should die in order to root out Hamas or that Israel should just suck it up. All while how many of their people taken as hostages still have not been freed.

I don’t have to like Israel’s response to understand it.

Because they've survived being attacked in three separate wars in the 20th century by nations with the stated goal to wipe away Israel and exterminate the Jewish people.

And before that, the Nazis tried to do the same to the Jewish people, with global ambitions.

And on Oct 7 they were attacked by Hamas despite a ceasefire agreement at the time, whose charter calls for the genocide of the Jews.

Oh, and there's the whole issue of how Hamas celebrates those who kill Jews as martyrs, to the point that children's TV shows in Gaza promote it.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/kill-all-jews-urges-hamas-tv-host/amp/

Just like this one. I know whose side I will always be on, and that’s the side of the oppressed for 75 years.

Nothing you say will convince me that this isn’t a land grab by genocide.

All anyone needs to do is look at the map changes over the years.

The cognizant dissonance you show is astounding.

And, I can find just as many photos of Israeli children brandishing guns as their parent holds the.

That has nothing to do with the crisis in Gaza, but you just sidestep that.

As long as there are enough recruits left.

doesn’t bother Israel either to be responsible for the murder thousands of children

and disgusting. 15,000 innocent NON-HAMAS MEMBERS. How many more children have to die before the world does something to stop It?

Genocide denial is related to Holocaust denial. Both are so dangerous.

of the Gazan government

He is a literally far Right. He is Israeli's Trump.

Support Netanyahu.
And do not support killing innocent civilians in Gaza.
Why can’t you understand that Israel can be defended for her people but at the same time not in support of Netanyahu.
The anti semitism on D U is unbelievable.
And yet no one should be surprised.

they were killed as a byproduct of other IDF operations. They and their mothers were in buildings that the IDF attacked.

There is no number of dead children that would ever be acceptable, so, basically, Israel should have done nothing after 10/7 and waited for Hamas' terms to return the hostages.

Israel got their revenge for 10/7 long before there were 15,000 dead Palestinian children. They just can’t stop the murdering until they get what Nuttyahoo wants. Total destruction of Gaza.

120? 12?

"Revenge" is a simplification.

have stopped at ONE

and just waited for Hamas' terms on the hostages.

how many dead children. Targeting kids is not defeating Hamas