and she was adamant that the anti-semitism was not from them but from outside groups protesting in a different location. She indicates their protest is about peace and advocating for violence against Jews would be against all they stand for. I believed her. Joy Reid was doing the interview, and she indicated that what she saw when she was there backed up the student's version of the story.

Two of the worst ones I have seen (including Go back to Poland) were shot on public streets near the university, not on campus. The president of Columbia can hardly be expected to police those areas.

that the "bad" protests weren't even on campus.

It's happened before with protests and it's very unfortunate. It'll end up undermining what their goals. Again, really unfortunate. Makes me wonder exactly where these outside agitators are coming from.

even though one of the students is Jewish, and she supports the protesters' right to protest. She also says the student protesters are peaceful, it's the people outside the school fence that are yelling the antisemitic bs.

I don't know that everyone at these protests can. btw, back in the day DU was outraged at any report of anti-Muslim American sentiment post 9-11. Some dodgy things have been said at these protests, though hopefully not by any Columbia students. Where's the outrage? Don't see much of it.

You just joined up in 2020. And if you read the article, they say they haven't heard any students saying antisemitic things, it all appears to be coming from people outside the Columbia community.

I've been here since the Bush administration. How is "Go Back to Poland" not antisemitic? And so what if it's coming from outside the University? It's being said. No outrage, though.

You say,"And so what if it's coming from outside the University?"

What do you mean "so what"? The university cannot police people on public streets, especially non-student groups. But, their ratfucking worked, because you and sooo many other DUers and people not on DU are blaming the WOC President and Columbia. and getting peaceful protests ON CAMPUS cleared.

It doesn't matter who's chanting it. It's still not okay. Once again, back in the day DU would be outraged by such chants against Muslim Americans. I'm not seeing the outrage now.

Where did I say I was blaming Columbia's president and the university? And shouldn't the ones chanting such slogans be called out, whether or not they were students?

But it is being used to smear the on- campus protest even though it happened else where and no one actually knows who said it...

That said, I am not happy about it being used to smear the columbia students. It did not happen at the camp there and no one knows who in fact said it.

Shouldn't that be denounced? I'm not seeing it denounced, much. People are differentiating between students and agitators -- okay. How about the fact that it's being said at all.

I seriously doubt anybody's going to call my statement antisemitic when there's too much of the real thing out there.

We would not have time for much else.

Recently, Florida had actual nazis parading around. I did not specifically denounce them here in a post. That doesn't mean I am pro nazi.

Last edited Wed Apr 24, 2024, 12:34 AM - Edit history (1)

This is getting very tiresome. So long.

But when I compare that to thousands of innocent children dying because of bombs and starvation, I am going to focus my moral outrage on the latter.

So long.

I have plenty of outrage at antisemites yelling for Jews to go back to Poland. I also have outrage at the continued conflation of those agitators outside the university with the students who have been mostly peacefully protesting. It's important to differentiate these two groups because one assumes guilt for all protesters and the other allows that Columbia can't control what happens off-campus, even if "off-campus" is on an adjacent sidewalk. That's just the other side of the bigotry coin from the Nazi playbook. No shades of grey, blind adherance to some reports (from outside the campus community, aka, news organizations), ignoring what most people on the ground are saying. You don't want all Jews lumped together as the Nazi's did, but you do want all Jews and their allies to lump all Palestinians and Palistinian supporters as terrorists. How is that a liberal position?

American Jews. And between students honestly expressing an opinion and outside agitators. I hope people will denounce just as vigorously antisemitic comments as they do the painting of protestors with a broad brush.

Here in Chicagoland, we had gangs of people ripping off stores during the BLM protests -- outside agitators giving a black eye to worthy protests. I denounced such awful behavior while also supporting peaceful protests. I hope in this situation supporters of current protests can do the same.

How do you know that he/she wasn't reading DU long before they joined up?
My profile shows I joined up in 2019, but in reality, I actually joined up in 2001 shortly after DU started, but in 2004 or 2005, I stopped posting because life intervened, so, how do you know that this isn't the case with this member?

I'm not addressing whether or not anti semitic language was used, I'm generally staying out of this contentious issue, but you pointing out the member's start date is really uncool.

Read for a couple years, then rejoined in 2020. I've been here since the Bush administration. I knew there'd be questions about when I joined, so I was ready for it. Thank you, though.

I should follow your example and not engage in these discussions. I'm already doing that in my actual life. Don't want to lose any friends.

DU has had many, many trolls and sockpuppets who were banned show up again with new accounts. The 2016 bannings were different, though, which is what happened to this user.

try reading for comprehension and see #22, my reply to shrike3. You're getting all up in arms for absolutely nothing.

You don't remember the Bernie vs. Hillary wars? People were definitely banned.

terms of service and rules couldn't post. They "banned" themselves.

Or if they can don't care because they lump every criticism of Israel as antisemitism because it's a lazy way of "debating".

Just for reference, what would you consider criticism of Israel, and what would you consider antisemitic, and how would you relate this to the events on Columbia's campus?

Antisemitism is used here as a weapon, not as a criticism based on actual fact. You reply could be seen as doing that very thing. I could give you my actual bona fides in this area but it wouldn't do any good. Until those who use the charge of antisemitism in that way - that is charging people unfairly and inaccurately - any actual discussion is pointless. Like others, I have until this mostly stayed out of this topic because it is a fight that is ancient and filled with religious zealotry. Which means little actual fact-based and reasonable discussion is moot. I do admire someone like Nanjeanne who is Jewish but willing to criticize Israel.

what you are expecting to be the criteria for such judgement?

BTW, I am not judging you. I am expecting you to articulate the criteria you want to be used in defining antisemitism (what you call an "actual fact" ). Then, and only then, can you legitimately claim that antisemitism doesn't color your views, or describe any criticism as unfair.

Without knowing what you consider to be an actual fact, it is not possible to determine whether your views fall within your own understanding of the actual fact, or even challenge your perception of it.

Talk about laziness.

Then you better be able to back it up. Several good, conscientious posters on here have been victims of that charge without any evidence, other than they object to what Israel is doing. Laziness is making the baseless charge rather than debating facts and values. You know.

I merely pointed out it goes both ways. And that we must differentiate between the actions of the nation of Israel and American Jews. Pointing that out is hardly accusing anyone of antisemitism.

And motivated to believe it. But I am not. "I have not seen antisemitism." She . . . she knows social media exist, right? That there's, you know, video? Why say such a ridiculously disconnected thing no one will believe unless it's in their interest to believe it?

"Actively calling for more police contributes to feelings of unsafety." But screaming at Jews. That's just a friendly greeting.

Slate interviews two extremely interested and motivated parties to uncritically disseminate a narrative.

Not sure what we'd do without this paean to objective journalism.

As if, in response to that question, anyone would answer, "Yes, Joy, we're all anti-Semitic assclowns here, to the last." The denial seems a trifle flimsy when one considers, you know, all the anti-Semitic shit the protesters are spouting...

Gen X probably will have to fix this mess.

I suspect she has a somewhat more informed perspective on the issues.

atmosphere I have no doubt that University presidents are doing what they think will save their jobs and keep them off the news as much as possible. Everything right now is performative.

Agreed.

In this respect, I would suspect the performative statements of the President to be more informed than those highlighted in the OP.

But you'd have to read the article to get that.

How about this quote from student newspaper editor: "Actively calling for more police contributes to feelings of unsafety. And those feelings of unsafety are contributing to more police. So we’re seeing a feedback loop with absolutely no communication from our administration. That is the uniting point for a lot of people, regardless of politics, that we’re seeing complete silence from our administration."

Or this from the former editor, who happens to be Jewish: "There are alarmists framing this all around antisemitism, or a crusade against Jewish students, whom are hiding or being pushed out of campus. I don’t think any of us have seen that."

does she not have a more informed perspective on the issues they are addressing?

I see nothing in the quotes you provided that would put my suspicions in doubt.

They are students who have been to the encampment and know the pulse of the university from the students side. While she is a university president who is, as they and many others have said, is kowtowing to scumbag billionaires. So no, she is not an objective actor in this. She has seen others lose their jobs over these issues and the university lose money from those scumbag billionaires, many of whom are trump supporters. So she has an agenda to keep her job. Nothing, however accurate and just, would put your "suspicions" in doubt.

running the said college, including the encampment?

I find this unreasonable in the extreme, implied eye roll notwithstanding.

These two are student leaders. The President is beholden to outside interests, in many cases those with questionable interests. Just as you had suspicions, you find anything that contradicts your agenda unreasonable. Therefore you have to put words in my mouth that I never wrote. Try using facts and reason instead of eye rolls and misrepresentations. I explained why these students views had merit. You will make no effort to understand or debate honestly.

And I am totally aware of your attempt to deflect from what I wrote. Here is the most direct and the most complete reply to what you wrote: it ain't gonna work.

So getting back to the pre-deflection part of the thread: I couldn't care less about what the status of the students you are referring to may be - by the virtue of them paying tuition for the privilege of getting educated about things they are ignorant of, they are still students. And I couldn't care less about who you think the President of Columbia University is beholden to - by the virtue of her position and job description she is only beholden to the Board of Trustees of Columbia University.

Thhe above makes me suspect she has a somewhat more informed perspective on what Is really going on at Columbia University. (Curiously, although beside the point, the exact same thing made you respond with "Oh please!" and deflect into the aforementioned rant I couldn't care less about).

And, presumed titles of her students notwithstanding, the President of Columbia University disagrees with their assessments cited in the OP.

Having established all of the above, the question remains: do you have anything to contribute that would end my suspicions of a college university president being more informed about what is going on in the college she is running than a high school graduate attending the same college?

I don't know why you found it so difficult to give a straightforward answer to this fairly straightforward question the first time around, but whatever your reasons, I am not looking for answers or speculations on any other matter, so please stay on topic.

I disagree with his continuing to supply Israel with bombs, but it doesn't mean I'm anti-American or anti-Biden or antisemitic. We have a disagreement. That's all.

And the donors: groups making endowments, parents paying tuition, sponsors, etc., don't want to see or hear of any controversy on campus.
The color of money coming into a University is green, and that also accounts for how the administration deals with potential social, political or religious controversy on campus.
Unless, of course, the University charter and membership is based solely on a particular politick or religion. But that's not the case for Colombia, or any of the other Universities with these current protests going on.

Haele

Haele

By the virtue of her position and job description she is only beholden to the Board of Trustees of Columbia University.

Not that she is entirely immune from the pressures of raising funds for the University, but she is protected from them as well by the Board of Trustees.

However, it does not change that the Jewish students are saying they do not feel safe on campus. Should it not be that we listen to the Voices of those who say they are Feeling unsafe?

One of the editors making those statements is Jewish. So obviously not all students feel that way. Perhaps you should read the entire interview, even though it challenges your point of view on the subject.

Feels okay the rest should just deal with it?

What other group would you tell the same?

(BTW I did read it.)

One student proves that YOUR claim that Jewish students were afraid is false. Deal with that, not some made up claim I never made. BTW, that student is actually well-acquainted with what is going on on the ground at the campus. What credentials do you have for rmaking blanket claims? Visited the camp? Met with students?

to make all others saying they do not into liars? The experience of one person is universal to all similar students? Why are all others measured against her?

Just repetition. That says a lot.

A Rabbi has told Jewish students to leave because it is not safe for Jews on campus. Jewish students have said they do not feel safe. Videos have been posted of Jewish students on and near campus being harassed.

You put forth that one Jewish student feeling differently negates all of the above. Can you explain why?

When you reply factually and honestly to the points I made. Can you explain why you can't?

I did not make a blanket claim, note the lack of the word "all" in my post. There are even some Jewish students among the protesters. Obviously I have not been to campus and met students since I live several states away.

However in our technological age, there are plenty of sources to get information. There are articles and videos, as I alluded to above, of Jewish students at Columbia who do not feel safe. There are videos of protesters blocking Jewish students access to campus. Though it is unclear if those doing the blocking are other students or outsiders, their status is irrelevant. They contribute to a feeling of lack of safety.

Your turn...

Of answering my question.

I could speculate but not worth the effort. Your silence is an honest admission...

“We have Zionists who have entered the camp” — Columbia students eject Jews from the quad

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=18886404

Same energy.

... FOX "News" covered it for hours this morning, while the other networks covered the Trump trial. Why? It portrays the USA under Biden as dangerous. It shows "leftist" education campuses as places where you could get killed. Don't get educated. It turns young voters away from Biden. But... they have a solution, "Only I can fix it" Trump is waiting to be reelected.

afraid of going on campus. (Just heard an interview with a Jewish student.) The protesters are definitely doing one thing: taking votes away from Joe Biden. That, of course, would leave Mr. Peace himself in the Oval Office telling his buddy Bebe to hurry up and finish the job. No Secretaries of State trying to negotiate a solution, just get it done. As a side benefit, the naive young protesters who are being featured on social media or being arrested will be paying back student loans for decades after they've been expelled from a leading university and explaining to future employers that they really weren't anti-Semitic no matter how that video on the Internet made them seem.

There are many many articles being written by and about what is happening on college campuses - especially Columbia - that run contrary to the media fear mongering. I've posted a few in other threads. Here's another:

Read full article: [link:https://zeteo.com/p/i-am-a-jewish-student-at-columbia|]

Like this post, I used the words of the students themselves. Rather than hearing their words, the usual suspects used the same old tropes.

I wrote in another response here about how I admire you, as a Jewish person, taking the positions you do. I know you have taken a lot of shit, as have others on here, for expressing contrary views on here and facing spurious charges of antisemitism. I have learned not to be surprised at such things anymore.

be controversial. You wouldn’t think Gazans not having freedom to go where they want - even if they manage to have a beach in their territory-would negate that they live in an open air prison. You wouldn’t think having multiple checkpoints to simply get to and from work, not being able to travel or visit family without Israel’s permission or having Israel control the air space, the waters, the water treatment facilities, the power would be controversial. But somehow it is.

do to earn this kind of treatment? You never mention the suicide bombings, the bus bombings. the hand grenade and knife attacks on employers and strangers. How would we respond if we had such a neighbor, sworn to our destruction and refusing to live side by side in peace with us for 75 years?

are talking about and are you actually trying to say that Israel has been a good neighbor and it is only the Palestinian people who have caused Israel to keep them occupied? Are you saying that the Gazans deserve to be occupied? Which Palestinians are you referring to? The ones that are having their homes taken in the West Bank?

I never mention suicide bombings. My family lives in Israel. They were there in the 1990s. They have always worked for peace and still do. They also know how many Palestinians were killed during that time. They have lost friends to Hamas. They visited friends at kibitzes right near the Gazan border and know what living in Gaza was like. Any time you want to have a meaningful discussion I’d be happy to have that. But this … “ How would we respond if we had such a neighbor, sworn to our destruction and refusing to live side by side in peace with us for 75 years?” is a bit delusional. No offense meant but really???

I love dialogue. But no idea what you are referring to so sorry, I’m going to have to take a pass.

It makes me wonder about the rest of your story. Gaza has not been occupied since 2005.

that’s fine. You give me the correct word. But let’s talk about life in Gaza.

Israel contends that its role as occupying power in the Gaza Strip ended in September 2005, when it dismantled all settlements there, withdrew its military forces and declared the end of the military government. OK.

Though Israel is clearly no longer responsible for keeping the peace inside Gaza, and is not generally obliged to see to the welfare of its residents under the laws of occupation, it is still the power that shapes the daily lives of Gaza residents, and as such, also bears responsibility towards them.

Israel declared an end to its military administration in Gaza, it continues to control critical aspects of life there. all border crossings by land, apart from Rafah, as well as Gaza’s sea and air space. This control allows Israel to exclusively monitor the movement of people and goods in and out of Gaza, which it regulates according to Israeli interests. This holds true even when Gaza residents wish only to transit through Israel in order to reach the West Bank or other countries. Even Rafah Crossing on the Egypt border Rafah Crossing, which is subject to Egyptian control and opened only infrequently may be used only by individuals who meet strict Israeli criteria that changeds every so often.

The Blockade began in the 1990s, with the imposition of a closure on all the Occupied Territories and the introduction of the requirement for every Palestinian from these territories – with the exception of areas annexed to Israel – to request a personal permit to enter Israel, even if only for the purpose of travel between the West Bank and the Gaza Strip or abroad. Over the years, Israel has made it increasingly difficult to obtain these permits. Is this occupation? Control? It certainly isn’t having rights.

The 2nd Intifa caused tighter restrictions and separated the Gaza Strip from the West Bank almost completely. Travel abroad for Gazans is almost impossible. Even entering Israel. And Israel also controls import and export of goods. In 2010 there was an international pressure placed so Israel loosened some of the goods restrictions but its still quite strict.

Air and sea - The Oslo Accords stipulate a range of 20 nautical miles (about 37 km) off the Gaza shoreline, but Israel has never allowed fishing farther than 12 nautical miles out to sea. Over the years, Israel has gradually narrowed the fishing zone, sometimes to three nautical miles only, and currently between six and nine. The Israeli military also restricts fishing in areas bordering Israel and Egypt.

Electricity is supplied only a few hours a day. This is partly because of a fuel shortage caused by high costs, and partly because of restrictions Israel imposes on the entry of spare parts to maintain existing systems including parts needed to repair the facility Israel bombed in 2006.

No status - In the Oslo Accords, the power to administer the population registry of the West Bank and Gaza Strip was handed over to the Palestinian Authority (PA). The Oslo Accords stipulated that the PA would maintain and manage the registry and that it would have authority to issue ID cards and visitor permits as well as to register children under 16 born abroad, provided one of their parents was registered as a resident of the Occupied Territories. However, it was also stipulated that the Palestinians must notify Israel of every change they make to the Population Registry and must receive Israeli approval to grant residency to spouses and children of Palestinian residents through the family reunification procedure. Israeli approval was also required for issuing visitor permits for the Occupied Territories. In 2000, Israel discontinued updating its copy of the Population Registry and no longer recognizes the changes made by the PA ever since. Israel currently allows the PA to register only births and deaths and to replace worn documents. As a result, neither the PA nor the Hamas government can issue ID cards to stateless residents nor approve applications for family reunification.

Today 40,000 to 50,000 Palestinians reside in the Gaza Strip without status.

There’s lots of info out there you can start with Brittanica or B’Tselem.

Whether you believe my “story” or not is really insulting but not of any major concern to me.

You gloss by that as if it doesn't exist. The rest of your OP reads like an alternative world. I don't need to read Brittanica like you. I have been there. You pretend that Gaza is some prison camp. Until Oct 7 Gazans could move freely from Gaza to Israel to shop, work, visit family members and have medical appointments. I know because I saw thousands of them crossing. I did not read about it. The restrictions you lament are because of nonstop Hamas terrorism against Israeli border towns. I don't get my pictures from Brittanica. I take them myself.





And when I was there mortar rounds were fired and the Iron Dome took them out.

limited the open is.

You must have some very special insight with your knowledge. You know so much more than I. Your pictures are great and really prove that I know nothing. I guess you must have been in Israel in 2017 because the image you took of the sky was posted by the Jerusalem Post on Aug 2017. You managed to get the same vantage point as the paper. And I can see why you took a pic of the sign at the crossing. It’s a popular photo op since that is posted in many other places including a Cogat Twitter post from 2019. Thanks for sharing.

I had no idea that Gazans can go freely wherever they want in Israel before 10/7.

It’s certainly contrary to any information I have personally or can find in any legitimate information organizations, encyclopedias , humanitarian organizations, news bureaus. Hundreds of reports, articles, first hand accounts, books etc. say differently. My visits to Israel before the pandemic and war told me something very different. Everything I know or read is completely different. Visas must be secured. Permission from Israel must be obtained. Work permits must be obtained and were only good for specific hours. Medical treatments in Israel are only allowed on humanitarian cases.

But I stand corrected. You told me so.

What do you want me to take a picture of since you imply the photos are faked? You believe what you want or have been told to believe. Not much of a student.

And be careful if you try to revisit the Karen Shalom crossing as you have in the past. While reopened I’m sure security is tight.

Until the recent massacre, Gaza had not been occupied for many years. Blockaded yes, occupied no.

Since this entire war, aftermath and protest movement is about Gaza, i am talking about Gaza.

I’m glad your family has worked for peace. Do they believe that the Palestinian people have also been doing so?

I can’t respond to the rest of your post as it is pure gaslighting. You don’t know that the Palestinian people, through their leaders, have been refusing statehood from the Balfour Declaration through Camp David and continuing to today with the chants of from the river to the sea, rather than create a state in situ?

Organization - and we’re friends of Vivian. She was an extraordinary peace activist slain on Oct 7 but I’m sure you know all about her and her peace movement.

My cousins now are working with the relatively new organization Standing Together.

So yes. They work side by side with Palestinian peace activists.

Gaslighting? Alrighty then. But if you want to talk about Balfour and Camp David etc I posted a fascinating article from the NT Times Magazine section - an interview with some of the people actually there. It’s quite a bit more nuanced than your sentence. And you can find it somewhere on DU. In the meantime you might find this very old article interesting. [link:https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/10/19/did-camp-david-doom-the-palestinians-israel-palestine-yasser-arafat-menachem-begin-jimmy-carter-reagan-bush-clinton-middle-east-peace/|]

Some of you may remember a book titled The Strawberry Statement, by James Simon Kunen, written while he was a student there in the 60s. He got involved with the April 1968 protests where students took over the dean's office. I think it is an interesting and enjoyable read. They also made a movie from the book.

Must be something about April and restless, idealistic, and angry students.

Last edited Tue Apr 23, 2024, 10:54 PM - Edit history (1)

And damn the LionLez group sounds like a group I’d avoid but I didn’t understand what their email that went out about an event (and the email sounds hostile from what is quoted) has to do with dropping a course because other people in her course complained about what she said.

Maybe I need to read the whole article to get the connection between an email saying Zionists weren’t welcome at an event has to do with university course argument with fellow students. I remember some pretty intense college arguments during the 1967-1971 times I was at Boston University.

But what’s fascinating is reading different perspectives. So if you can find a free link it would be great!

but I'm a recovering Luddite.

on edit:
It appears, from the paragraph that I quoted, that it is two different students with two different stories. I can't figure out how to get the article for you, but if you're more adept at this stuff, the title and author are in my post. If you want me to message you with the copied article, I can do that tomorrow -if that's in keeping with the TOS here.

Try this: https://www.allsides.com/news/2024-04-23-1319/education-unreality-columbia-s-liberated-zone

Was clearly on the Columbia campus. The rabbi who is telling Jewish students they should avoid campus is at Columbia as well.

I'm not going to ignore things that are in clear sight because two morons either don't know or won't admin what is going on.

I realize people have their opinions. But I'm going to have to treat this subject on DU the same way I treat it in life. I have friends on both sides of this issue. I've heard them all out. Both sides tell me the same thing. "Get the facts," they say. I'm starting to wonder, "Which facts?"

No more Israel-Hamas threads. I'm tapping out. Yeah, I know, no one particularly cares, but at least I can refer to this post in the future to remind myself.

... I am pretty concerned that the division we're seeing here is part of the The Plan to undermine democracy in America.

And if there is a plan, it's working well.

.... but certain bad actors (Putin and Xi, for example), know how to exploit divisions in America. They are certainly doing that here IMO. Many in the Palestinian camp have had cozy relationships with Russia for a long time.

But I certainly believe in bad actos as well.

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

Link to tweet