...but his examples are of protests related to American issues. The average voter isn't going to be heavily focused on Israel-Gaza.

is an issue for everyone. If you're not protesting the genocide, you're on the wrong side of humanity. I do believe you were calling for the protestors to be punished. Correct me if I'm wrong....and what kind of punishment do you endorse?

I'm disgusted with this whole situation. Absolutely disgusted.

by Israel.

It's like the historic go-to of "blame it on the Jews" is back in fashion.

Great. Just great.

I guess if you have to pick something to protest, it might as well be the more horrific terrorism.

IMHO it’s always been there, like a winter coat…it doesn’t go out of fashion in the summer….it’s just waiting for the slightest chill in the air to get pulled out of the closet and paraded around the neighborhood.

Both/all 'groups' seek genocide of their own particular 'enemy?' Conflicts with no solution.

It’s a mystery why so many support them but despise Israelis. It’s not fair or right.

it always seems Hamas is brought up when genocide is mentioned.

No one despises Israelis, they despise the genocide the Israeli government is conducting.

... but hey... go ahead and play the victim card.

Or you were trying to avoid just saying that?

Silence = Death

Biden is going to WIN.

That's who is going to WIN. That's my message.

of that.

"Zionists don't derserve to live"

“be grateful that I’m not just going out and murdering Zionists.”

- Khymani James, the organizer of pro-Palestinian protests at Columbia

He is an extremist outlier, a self-proclaimed "spokesman" who wields no evident power or sway either in or outside Columbia, let alone more broadly.

On the other hand, there are Israeli Ministers who've called Palestinians "human animals", remarked that nuking Gaza was an option and there were no innocent civilians. Other public figures have called for the flattening of Gaza and turning it into a slaughterhouse. I cling to the hope that they are not representative of Israeli society.

It is ironic and sad to me that the ramblings of one extremist student in America are amplified and claimed to be more consequential and dangerous than the pronouncements of Israeli politicians whose views are actually shaping the ongoing massacre of Gaza and its people.

And it's beside the point. I was responding to the claim that "no one" was saying such things, and that is obviously untrue. But here you are, moving the goalposts.

How unfair it would be to judge an entire group of people by the extremist rhetoric of one member or even a few. If you call that moving the posts, so be it.

lots of luck. It just doesn't seem right that people here are allowed to lie about so many things regarding this massacre in Gaza.

once said to me, "It's good to have friends."

What was it she said about Jews going back to Poland and Germany?

and she was fired for that from Hearst. She, like many, was frustrated at the horrific treatment of the Palestinians by the Israeli government. She voiced that frustration, and paid for it. I've heard my mil say some similar things and she's almost 98 and is Jewish. She's older than the State of Israel.

I will always admire Helen Thomas. She stood up for what is right.

Granted, that's not as bad as being a member of the KKK to some people, but that doesn't mean she wasn't a nasty antisemite who was fired for saying out loud what apparently a lot of people in this country think.

I think she said it out of frustration, as I said before. She was not an anti-Semite, and yes, I'm well aware of what she said, and the comments after. It goes much deeper, the care for the Palestinians, which many here disavow entirely.

[link:https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/helen-thomas-defends-anti-semitic-remarks-radio-interview/story?id=11860799|

It's sad that a groundbreaking legacy was destroyed because a bigot couldn't keep her mouth shut. But then I'd rather know who the bigots are than have them hiding behind weasel words and forced non-apologies.

I've been called an anti-semite many times, which is always so ridiculous, and by one living brother, who is, btw, a Trump supporter.

Just about no one can criticize Israel without being labeled as such.

about the European Jewish people that came to what was established as Israel, and displaced 700k native people. I have followed this conflict for over half of my life. Yes, I'm old. I've watched what has happened to the Palestinians for over 30 years. Context is important. I'm married to a Jewish guy. He agrees.

But keep trying to defend the indefensible.

of yourself.

Peace out - time to art.

Which were antisemitic.

She told the world that with her own words.

"lying" as you assert..

I see disagreements' but NO "lies".

SMDH.

I agree!

Last edited Mon Apr 29, 2024, 10:23 PM - Edit history (1)

and Hamas Should NOT get a fucking Pass

When "Hamas" or "genocide" is thrown at a poster, I believe it shuts down the dialogue. This must stop.

When "Hamas" or "genocide" is thrown at a poster, I believe it shuts down the dialogue. This must stop.

A lot of people need to close the yearbook and get wise to that. and soon. The enemy is at the gates.

I'd hate to think that protestors rashly chose civil disobedience without knowing the potential implications.

As for "but it's about genocide". why are they only addressing genocide in one instance?

Sorry, brooklynite, this question is classic whataboutism.

I have college-age kids and am close with them and many of their friends. Lots of folks their age think there's little difference between the corporatism of both parties and that Biden and Obama are as complicit as Trump and Bush in using the US military to assist allies in global oppression to promote US financial interests.

While I don't agree with this view, I think it's very common among Gen Z. From their perspective, they were already disenchanted-to-angry and the eruption of violence in October set them off.

IMO, the moral high ground is very clear; all humans, including Palestinians and Israelis deserve to live in peace. The only viable solution is a two state solution; the one-state strategy that's been pursued for decades has failed miserably. Hamas is vile and must be eliminated; "From the River to the Sea "gins up hate and precludes peace. Likud is reprehensible, and has progressed from Zionist oppression to war crimes.

To me, Biden's path forward is clear, as well. First, withhold military aid to Israel until there's a permanent cease-fire and a commitment to a two-state solution. Second, collaborate with Palestinians to eliminate Hamas and establish a pro two-state solution governing body. Both prongs have to be pursued.

...but not, apparently the violence of Hamas. More "whataboutism"?

The young folks I've spoken with view the Hamas attacks as a deplorable. They also view them as an inevitable response to decades of oppression of Palestinians. They view the Israeli response as unjustifiable escalation and are pissed that US supplied armaments are killing civilians. They won't vote for Biden in November if he continues on his current path.

Then they're terribly uninformed. Hamas is unwilling to accept a Jewish State and never has been willing.

I was trying to share the perspective of very thoughtful gen Z folks, not necessarily my own (in response to the OP). Several of my kids' close friends, whose opinions I'm trying to convey, are observant jews. This includes a recent Columbia alumnus who witnessed the protests at student suspension/arrests. And others who have lived in Israel and have dear friends in Gaza. They are very far from uninformed.

I agree (as do my young friends) that Hamas is a huge part of the problem and Hamas' refusal to accept Israel at the crux of the issue. The elections in 2006, where Hamas defeated Fatah, was a tragic outcome. So, too, is the fact that Hamas hasn't allowed elections since. However, I agree with my young friends that Zionism is also to blame; it's inarguable that both sides have committed atrocities.

These are the same young adults who get their news from TikTok, Xitter, and other social media, yes? You will, I hope, forgive me if I don't place a ton of faith in their being "extremely informed", given the dross and outright nonsense circulating on social media every day.

The best thing that could happen for the Palestinians in Gaza would be for every member of Hamas to be escorted off the mortal coil, and for the Palestinian people at large to accept that Israel isn't going anywhere and they're not going to eradicate it. The Arab nations tried several times and failed every time. The sooner the Palestinians accept this and negotiate a two-state solution, the happier they and everyone else in the region will be.

Well, Iran probably won't be happy, but I can live with that.

Where does Netanyahu and current IDF fall on the continuum?

Open-air Prison. End of discussion!

Start of discussion

Last edited Mon Apr 29, 2024, 11:44 PM - Edit history (1)

fucking TSF and those kids will see what happens when a Fucking Dictator gets in And so will the Res of he world.

Hamas's actions weren't inevitable. Killing thousands and raping untold numbers of women to death aren't inevitable responses. Funny how killing and raping Israelis gets a pass, and the response doesn't.

Ethnic killing has started up once again in Darfur. Why aren't these students protesting that? Maybe because it's Arabs doing the killing instead of being killed. Or maybe they just don't give a shit about Africa.

This isn't a moral stand so much as it's the outrage du jour. Selective outrage. You know what will happen. They'll scream and shout and then when they graduate, they'll lose the outrage - fast - in the doldrums of getting a career started. It's hobby protesting, and I really can't bring myself to give a shit. The only thing they're really doing is providing excellent fodder for both conservative and mainstream media to criticize President Biden and strengthen the chances of Trump getting elected. Fuck them.

Especially if they see their own government or university funding the state or its affiliates committing that genocide.

The students were protesting peacefully and shouldn't be tarred with the same brush as the provocateurs and extremists on both sides that have deceptively co-opted their movement. Punishment for protesting peacefully seems draconian and sort of anti-democratic.

This genocide requires decisive action. They are addressing THIS genocide (thanks for acknowledging it) because the institutions they are paying for are arming the genocide. But you knew that.

How about this guy? What punishment should he have?

[link:https://www.thedailybeast.com/pro-israel-agitator-shouts-kill-the-jews-gets-everyone-else-arrested|

BBC interview with Joan Donoghue, a judge and former president of the main U.N. judicial arm in The Hague.

ICJ “didn't decide claim of genocide was plausible” nor “that there's a plausible case of genocide”

if you have to defend Israel against the charge of genocide, you're on the wrong side of humanity. 14 years to clear the rubble. All hospitals and educational facilities destroyed/ruined...all landmarks destroyed, all culture erased....gee, is that just regular war? 'War is bad', so I hear from all of these armchair warriors......while cheering on the IDF in all of its neo Zionist glory.

We all see what's happening. It's like many here are saying 'well it's not quite genocide so it's okay'. What do you call what's going on if not genocide? Ethnic cleansing? 'Mowing the lawn', as the Israeli's IDF puts it, referring to Palestinians as 'blades of grass'? Maybe the dehumanization of an entire group of people? Calling them 'human animals'?

take it up with them.

You seemed unaware of how the authorities at the ICJ ruled.

Don’t put words in DU’ers mouth’s they didn’t say.

Link to tweet

It will take years for the court to make a ruling on genocide. The question before the court was not whether Israel was committing genocide but to make a ruling on imposing provisional measures to safeguard Palestinians' rights to be protected from genocide.

However, after reviewing the evidence submitted, the court did find that there was a risk of irreparable harm to Palestinians' rights to be protected from genocide and that some provisional measures were necessary to safeguard those rights.

They're protesting for divestment of funds to defense contractors who supply arms to Israel via our government.

I have no problem with peaceful protest. March. Write. Vote. I do think turning your campus into a shit tent city, interrupting class access for students who actually GAF about their education, trashing university property, vandalizing hallways, and TERRORIZING JEWISH STUDENTS are acts that should not be lauded or rewarded. I also think these kids are a bunch of hypocrites who have no problem accepting grants that are funded by the very endowments that are invested in these funds- and if they really GAF about this they could decline financial aid. I don't see a quad full of John Lewis's when I see these videos and photos- I see a field of overly-entitled brats who want a cause, any cause, to bring some semblance of meaning to their lives in an increasingly disconnected and apathetic world.

RFN.
They have renewed my faith in humanity. The fascists, white supremacists and their allies will lose.

70% of the faculty at Cal Poly Humboldt voted for the university president and chief of staff to resign because they blame the administrators for the situation spiraling out of control.

I don't support what either side has done with the protests, what I do see is that the most liberal and progressive institution in Humboldt County is being destroyed and the right wing and law enforcement are salivating over the chaos.

Have supported Israel all my life. Hamas has to go. What Israel is doing in Gaza and the West Bank is murder. If POTUS Biden is not re-elected, Gaza and the failure to adequately prosecute the insurrectionists are the reasons.

Our Constitution gives us the right to peacefully protest, and most of those protesting the war on Gaza are peaceful. It isn’t surprising, though, that in a country that now glorifies violence we would have some protesters using violence or threatening to do so.

I’m sorry that Jewish students feel threatened because they are not the problem. The problem is Netanyahu and his extremist right-wing government.

I’m feeling a bit bitter about this just now.

How many people actually know what civil disobedience is, and that part of it is accepting the ugly consequences? Yes.

How many people understand that “free speech rights” do not include letting people shout “Fire! “ in a crowded theater or “Hijack! “ in an airport?

Likewise, screaming that such and such a group does not deserve to live and needs to be wiped out is not really protected speech. And it has consequences — like tiki-torches in Charlottesville.

[link:https://www.thedailybeast.com/pro-israel-agitator-shouts-kill-the-jews-gets-everyone-else-arrested|

They play no part in GAZA. And lest you forget, Hamas started this. I wouldn't be surprised if Netenayu launched a wag-the-dog operation with Hamas. Netanayuh must go. However, This is up to Isreal. Protesting on college campuses is a waste of time. It makes participants,, feel good no doubt, but it only emboldens Hamas and makes the process of beginning a two-state solution more difficult. This is the only way to find peace.

But they are all fruits, so they certainly can be compared regarding their fruit similarities and differences. Comparisons of identical objects would be useless.

and returned to the Palestinians?

can you be?

many of these "young people" are calling for.

You don't think they're calling for the destruction of Israel? Because it sounds to me like that's exactly what they're after.

How obtuse, indeed...

Edit to add: Those same protesters were calling for Tel Aviv to be burned to the ground and proclaimed their love for Hamas. So I'm sorry, I'm not buying what you're selling here.

the entirety of protestors with the ones they find the most deplorable....let me remind you that there are lots of chaos agents like this one here:

When whole crowds of people are chanting reprehensible things, the movement begins to look reprehensible.

If you want to defend people shouting "We are Hamas!" well... you do you, I guess. It's a look.

and accuse everyone of defending Hamas....it's a look for sure. Defending genocide is reprehensible.

Point of order: I didn't accuse everyone of defending Hamas. I am absolutely accusing people who chant "We love Hamas!" and "Burn Tel Aviv to the ground" and "We don't want no Jewish state" of defending Hamas, though. Their own mouths condemn them.

committing genocide, according to my Jewish mother in law, my husband, and my in laws, and my living siblings, our friends, the young people who are watching it unfold. She calls it genocide. But you do you, as you seem to enjoy saying.

Just because a bunch of people believe it doesn't make it so.

not the Droids you're looking for.

Ethnic cleansing? Mass murder? 14 years of rubble to clean up....hospitals, universities, infrastructure destroyed....cultural artifacts destroyed....entire cities destroyed. Mass, intentional, starvation. Children with sniper bullets to the head. Mass graves with bodies with obvious signs of torture.

I honestly can't muster up much sympathy for the Palestinians. Do you want to know why? Think back to October 7 and the jubilant crowds of Palestinians, hundreds and hundreds of them, who greeted the Hamas butchers as if they were conquering heroes. Think back to the bodies of Israeli civilians that were dragged through the streets, stomped on, spat on, mutilated. Think back to the hostages who were paraded through the streets and terrorized. I saw a video of an Israeli child, perhaps six years old, who was taken hostage. Palestinian children were taunting and beating him while the adults watched and laughed.

So no, I don't have much sympathy for the Palestinians. They had their dance and now the time has come to pay the piper.

And the Palestinians can run their country as the deem fit. It’s weird this is never offered up. A two state situation still has Israel and Palestinians still dealing with each other. Let’s permanently separate them for good.

The two-state solution is the only way...and Netanyahu needs to go.

It’d be a nice revenue stream which they will need to run their own country.

Besides Jared won't pay...

off the coast...

Netanyahu has declared that there will never be a two-state solution and Israelis seem to be just fine with him in charge, given how many times he's been "gone" and then returned.

for 1 thing, their ‘likely voter’ tag requires previous voting. so new voters wont even show up in most polls. and they have no idea how many will b registering be the deadline. no poll b4 that point is worth spit.
they also use a weight factor that says young ppl dont turn out. i know that trend has been changing since 17, but i think it is going to b huge this time, and it will be heavily dem.

imho, we’ll take florida. w both abortion and weed on the ballot…
i suspect direct democracy is more attractive to young voters, too.

Americans were dying every day...kids really, It was much different in the 50s. I find your premise not true. And the destructive behavior of these marches the antisemitism...make them the opposite of civil rights...but they will succeed in destroying their future by being arrested. And the idea that inexperienced youth can lead the way...is foolish.

The war ended when Middle America turned against it. And Middle America tuned against it in spite of, not because of, the protests. They thought of the campus protestors then what Middle America thinks of them now. At best entitled cosplayers, at worst fifth columnists.

won twice. Sure they pushed Johnson out but that wasn't a good thing. I remember after Kent State. I was a kid and I never forgot my Mom said to my Dad that the war must end... too many have died. and he agreed with her. It was shocking. Both my parent were vets. Dad was in the Navy. He was still serving.

They brought the issue front and center. I know; I lived it. Not as a protester,
but as one whose mind was changed forever. Not right away, I had been
predisposed to support the war effort. But over 3 years, I had completely
flipped. Even if it took a few years for the middle class to come around,
they did. The kids were right along; and these kids are right too.

Slaughtering and starving children is never right. I am grateful that they
have the courage to stand by their values regardless of how they are
demeaned, slandered and punished. So were the students in the 60's.