Go ahead and think whatever you want to think.

you will not explain your point of view? At that point, why should I care about your opinion?

and anti-Semitism.

Your unwillingness to acknowledge what is happening does not in any way alter that reality.

I don’t particularly care who they are, they are scum.

...just to spew their anti-semitic and Islamaphopic B.S. just to fan the flames of hatred from the public is indeed scum.

They were probably welcomed with open arms by the 'From the river to the sea" anti-Semite dirtbags.

born out of watching people cheer on Nazi symbols and the calls for destruction of Israel. So... yeah.

Trump thanks them. The violence gives him one more thing to run on. Ironically, it will be much worse for the Palestinians is Trump is elected.

Most young people are not into hate - and many are mixed race. Every Jewish women I know is not married to a Jewish man - and their kids are half Hispanic, half Turkish, half black. The claims of anti-semitism is ridiculous- younger people refuse to be compliant in mass murder and are way less conscientious of race then our generation. If I asked my grandkids do you have any Jewish friends, they would not even know what I was talking about.

of those young people are, they are misinformed by pro Palestinian distortions.

People die in wars. If Israel is committing genocide, then every war is genocidal.

It is a myth that Israel is bombing people indescriminately. Israel is targeting Hamas. Hamas is holed up underneath civilian homes and institutions.

War is terrible because of the loss of life and destruction. It should be avoided whenever possible. But when militant terrorists attack with the stated intent of destroying your entire nation and obliterating the entire population, then you have to fight back in self defense.

Young people are seeing the surface of the situation in news clips, but are not informed on the broader picture and complexity of the situation. They are getting their information from Palestinian websites that call for protests with distorted information and loaded language.

Wow, talk about facts not in evidence. Israel is bombing the shit out of the Gazans, while the leaders of Hamas are elsewhere in the world. It's an ethnic cleansing/genocide. And it is never going to be moral.

to function as a military force attacking Israel from within Gaza. That means destroying underground bunkers, tunnels, stored weapons, and communications networks which run the entire length of Gaza underneath homes and civilian facilities.

There are many complaints about Israel moving the Gazan population around, and accusations that Israel is doing it to harass the civilians. Israel is doing it as advance warning to civilians that they are targeting an area. If genocide were the goal, they would not give advance warning. The warnings also give Hamas fighters an opportunity to escape, but the section that they escape from gets destroyed for future use, along with weapons and communications systems located there.

The reason that Israel wants to go after Rafah is that there is a major tunnel system there that smugglers use for getting supplies and weapons to Hamas. That's not a guess or assumption on my part. It comes from US terrorisn expert Malcolm Nance. There is a video of him explaining the situation that was posted in the Liberal You Tubers Forum on DU several days ago.

I can't argue with that logic.

It is hyperbole.

But I'd rather be proven wrong.

All loss of life is a tragedy, but I agree that loss of civilian life in a war, especially of children, is the worst. It is why my anger is directed at Hamas for using civilians to hide behind (or underneath as it is doing in Gaza) in an attempt to gain immunity for its attacks on civilians in Israel.

Israel is attempting to minimize the number of civilian deaths by warning people in advance of bombing an area. The deaths reported by Hamas are around 35,000. Some of those are Hamas fighters. Some are civilians. The population of Gaza is 2,375,259 according to Wikipedia. So, although the deaths are tragic and preventable by Hamas, they are less than 1% of the population. Not genocide by Israel.

Israel's targets are Hamas underground operations, not Palestinian civilians. Since Hamas operations are under civilian sites, civilian infrastructure is getting destroyed in the attacks on Hamas operations. Not intentional destruction of civilian infrastructure when the targets are Hamas operations.

Hamas could have prevented this by not using civilians for their own protection. They could end it by releasing the hostages, agreeing to a ceasefire, and turning over the leaders of the attacks for prosecution. They will not do that of course because they want to stay in power, with backing from Iran.

Israel is not committing genocide against Palestinians.

and it is immoral and they could stop at any time. they are committing clear war crimes, killing civilians indiscriminately, and leaving the population homeless and starving. They are deliberately killing journalists and blocking humanitarian aid.

so please stop spreading misinformation here.

saying what you said in your reply (I agree with you for the most part btw).

That bill is entering into extremely dangerous territory.

I can see bad faith actors trying to use that bill to go after people here in real life. They could file a hate crime (using a newly minted category) allegation and try and get a controlling legal authority to force site owners to hand over their personal data via a warrant.

Just the threat of that happening could induce a massive chilling effect.

It concerns Title VI of the Civil Rights Act as it applies educational institutions and eligibility for Department of Education funding. It has nothing to do with criminality and in no way limits personal free speech.

The final clause of the bill explicitly states:

An assertion is not an argument.

You're just spouting bumper-sticker slogans and getting mad when everyone doesn't immediately agree with you.

It's not genocide. Period. And when you insist that it is, it becomes impossible to engage with you. It's bad faith.

But do go on feeling self-righteous fake moral outrage.

The acts that constitute genocide fall into five categories:

Killing members of the group
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction, in whole or in part
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

and you are diminishing it, for reasons I can't begin to fathom.

And until so-called "leftists" start using the defined meaning of the word, instead of using it as a rhetorical bludgeon, there is no discussing it with them.

Bad-faith bumper-sticker sloganeering is all it is.

They're anti Netanyahu.

but the college kids ( and the instigators ) doing the pro-Palestinian protests need to listen to you.

However antisemitism is antisemitism regardless of what a person is protesting. Being anti-*whatever* is not an excuse or justification.

Saying "we're against genocide" sounds noble, but it's used to criticize Israel's defensive actions.
Sometimes it's frustrating to have to state the obvious, especially when it feels like everyone should already understand it.

Killing aid workers and journalists is not defensive.
Destroying universities is not defensive.
Bombing hospitals is not defensive.

People are rightly protesting those serious human rights violations.

a movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. It was established as a political organization in 1897 under Theodor Herzl, and was later led by Chaim Weizmann.


Do we want Israel to cease to exist? If not, if so we are a Zionist. I certainly don't want the demise of Israel. The only way to establish peace is a two-state solution and Netanyuh needs to go.

Revisionist Zionism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revisionist_Zionism

Meir Kahane https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meir_Kahane

The lack of discussion or even mention confuses me.

like the current Israeli government: [link:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Zionism|

Neo-Zionism (Hebrew: ניאו-ציונות is a right-wing, nationalistic and religious ideology that appeared in Israel following the Six-Day War in 1967 and the capture of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Neo-Zionists consider these lands part of Israel and advocate their settlement by Israeli Jews. Some advocate the transfer of Arabs not only from these areas but also from within the Green Line.

The term "Post-Zionism" entered Israeli discourse following the publishing of a book by Uri Ram in 1993.[1] In the same volume, Gershom Shafir contrasted Post-Zionism with what he termed Neo-Zionism.[2] In a widely cited 1996 essay, sociologist Uri Ram used the term Neo-Zionism to describe a political and religious ideology that developed in Israel following the 1967 Six-Day War.[3]: 18 [4]: 67 [5]: 218  He considers it as an "exclusionary, nationalist, even racist, and antidemocratic political-cultural trend" in Israel[6] that evolved in parallel with, and in opposition to, the left-wing politics of Post-Zionism and Labor Zionism.

and DU is the first place have ever been called antisemitic. Much of what I see at DU is counter to my experience in that both families were liberal, anti-war families that were revolted by Begin and Kahane. That experience formed my outlook on life as will explain.

Age 5 (1958) my parents separated (but did not say so) and bought a house in SF East Bay. I became best friends with a kid up the street whose father was a researcher at Lawrence Livermore, a Cal Professor of Physics, and had worked on Manhattan Project in WWII. My fragmented family had no religious connection at the time and often had neither parent for supervision (babysitters). Had two Jewish Cub Scout Den Mothers, occasionally went to synagogue, and went to Seders. Close to half the people in our neighborhood were Jewish professional class people (MDs, Dentists, Engineers, Scientists, etc.). Have not anything to do with own family since 1996.

My father was an alcoholic right-wing bigot who had no formal education past 8th grade and ran heavy equipment in rural Humboldt County. The Bay Area house went away when the 1964 Christmas Flood destroyed everything and my maternal grandfather who was brains of family business died. My oldest sibling stayed south, my younger sibling went to live with Mother's cousin, and I was sent to a military academy owned by Episcopalian Church in Marin in 1966. The family in the East Bay were designated as a place I could go on leave. There was a new, progressive then boarding school in the East Bay that their mother wanted her son to go and me to be closer, I was accepted he was not. The school was close to half Jewish kids, some very wealthy (Haas, Selznick, etc.). Father took me out of the "hippy school" and went my senior year of high school on the Hupa Reservation (I am not NA). Had been told not going to Hoopa HS was the reason was sent away.

etc. etc.

Lived with a non-practicing Jewish (father side) woman from age 19-24. Married a Jewish woman active in her faith. Two degrees from Cal. Eight of the 10 people that were roommates while at Cal were Jewish (one non-Jew owned the house). Last two years of undergrad work caretakers for a wealthy Jewish couple in Piedmont with woman I married. Spouse family was from the same neighborhood as Golda Meir in Milwaukee.

Been living in the Klamath Mountains of childhood since 2002 so like Rip Van Winkle. Have not been to Bay Area (or any city) since 2003. Did not see a stoplight or chain store from 2013 to 2017 when was diagnosed with lymphoma followed by several other cancers. Have decided to die in place.

The Jews I knew were all liberal and loving people. The only religious meals have ever attended are Seders with the two families of Reformed Jews. My love of learning and outlook on life did not come from my own family. Went to San Francisco and Berkely anti-war rallies with Jews in late 60s and early 70s.

Still occasional contact with friend from 1st grade and regular contact with younger brother who was also one of roommates at Cal. Friend became a Jew for Jesus back in 1990s and moved to deep South. He broke things off with his parents and I broke things off with him until during covid.

The hate and violence deeply troubles me.

an insult by those who are misogynists.

but not necessarily as a religious ethno-nationalist state with different classes of citizenship or non-citizenship, mostly based on parentage and ancestry.

I think it should be a state for all its citizens, and it should have defined borders with equal citizenship for anyone living within them.

This business of de facto annexation of the West Bank with the establishment and constant spread and expansion of settlements, where the Jewish inhabitants have full rights and citizenship and the Palestinian ones have neither is not acceptable and probably not sustainable.

Theoretically I'm in favor of a two state solution, but I'm afraid that the settlement enterprise has made it all but impossible, as was always its purpose. The fundamental underlying problems won't go away, even if Netanyahu does. I honestly don't know how the situation ultimately gets resolved.

I think that most people would probably not classify me as a Zionist.

Saying anything against the Palestinians is antisemitism.

, , , is antisemetic AF.

Happy to explain.

People have eyes and ears. Isn’t that what we tell Trumpers?

and Likud. Israel will try his corrupt ass once this war is over, but in the meantime, he has done incalculable damage to Israel's international image, and he failed to protect and reenforce it's Gaza border even though he was warned for months that a big attack was coming.

And it's still hasn't been explained why the IDF took several hours to respond to the Oct. 7 attack.

WHY?

Kick his corrupt ass to the curb, then try him.

daily accusations of Israel, and not Netanyahu, committing genocide.

But I am jumping ahead of myself.These accusations are being casually thrown around without a hint of understanding of what genocide is. For once, I would like to see an accusation of genocide supported by rudimentary awareness of the legal definition of the term.

towards the nation, or even Netanyahu. I am of the opinion that both Netanyahu/Likud and Hamas are guilty of war crimes though, and once they are all out of the picture, some sense and a long pause in hostilities can result.

The region and the world needs it...and time to re-access.

I sincerely wish I could follow your advice and zero in on Netanyahu. I just find it difficult when I get distracted by a never-ending stream of ignorance that implicitly or explicitly ties genocide directly to Israel.

The suffering is what matters. I just listened to Bernie Sanders today. I pretty much agree with him That’s allowed here right?

What matters to me is ending the suffering. And you cannot possibly do that without being honest about what is causing the suffering.

Suffering is the symptom, Hamas is the disease that causes it. Lamenting the symptoms while ignoring their cause does nothing to end them.

And as far as Bernie's populist rhetoric is concerned, I have no comment.

And it happens some of the folks making this spurious charge are antisemities. They often are the same people who don't think Israel should exist (anti-Zionists) or think that Israel has been illegally occupying "Palestine" so for them any attempt at defense on the part of Israel is unwarranted because Israel is illegitimate in their eyes. Even 10/7 has justifications.

Israel has been attacked by Hamas four times, 2009, 2012, 2014 and 2023. The Israelis have every right to eliminate Hamas and in the current conflict they have captured or killed 14,000 militants. Given that studies like the one just published by Lancet show that the Hamas numbers are wrong by at least 10k, and that 14k of the deaths are militants, the civilian to combatant ratio is quite good, especially since this is urban warfare, and the enemy embeds itself in every civilian heavy location they can, like hospitals, schools etc.

Claiming Israel is committing genocide is just the latest lie being told about everyone's favorite punching bag, Israel.

I certainly don’t like being called unpatriotic and that I hate America just because I disagree with MAGA and think Trump is a criminal. Bibi = Trump

you can be both Jewish and Anti-Zionist, but it's rare.

most librul American Jews who want a ceasefire probably fall in the "Israel exists and should defend itself, but the cost in human suffering in Gaza is too high" camp.

and I'm amazed that people even try to argue that.

Rec

Genocide is in the Hamas charter.
Whether present day Palestinians voted for Hamas or not, Hamas is still the government of Gaza.

Israel is defending itself from the intentions of Hamas.
I think you have it kind of turned around there.

Try explaining this to the Columbia University freshmen eager to free Palestine from the Zionist occupiers of the State of Israel.

I think it's incumbent on parents to foster critical thinking skills in their children. These are Columbia students; odds are that their parents have higher educations as well.

Somebody dropped the ball.
Not everything can be left up to schools.

People who say it is need to live somewhere that's undergoing a Klan revival and toughen up and learn the difference.

The citizens of Gaza should have thought about this before turning a terrorist group into a political party by voting it into power.

Will we deserve it if Trump gets in? What even is this argument? They DON’T get elections. People here better take notes, we might find ourselves there.

What's happening in Gaza is horrible, but it is not genocide. The use of that term is meant to cut off all debate. I won't acquiesce to that particular rhetorical sleight-of-hand.

You may believe it to be genocide. But if so, that term applies to any war with significant civilian casualties.

Good day.

Why are you arguing the term genocide?!?

The use of the term "genocide" has become meaningless at this point.

But carry on with the semantic skermish.

The current situation in the middle east is just the next chapter in a 76+ year blood feud, that neither side is ready to call an end to.
In this particular round, both sides have chosen to engage in horrific, brutal actions that are shocking and disgusting. Unfortunately, it's like a whirlpool that draws people into it and drowns them in hate and violence. It brings out the worst in people.
That said, there needs to be a change in the middle east. Using people as pawns in a game of death and destruction will never fix what's wrong there.
Not only is there a need to root out the Hamas leadership, but the leadership of Israel also has to go. Personally I see little difference between the two. When this conflict started, I was all in for Israel, but their actions have forced me to abandon that position.

There is are several kinds of Zionism. There is the kind that says Israel has a right to exist, which I fully agree with. Then there is the kind which says that Israel has not only the right to exist, but the right to go out and take whatever they want from the people who already live there, and to treat the people of Palestinian heritage living within its borders as second class citizens. THAT I do not agree with in the least. THEN there is the kind that seems to say they want to wipe all the Palestinian people out of Gaza and the West Bank, where they have lived forever, PERIOD. That's just WRONG.

Which kind of Zionism are you talking about, LV? Please elucidate. Because if it's either of the latter two, then I guess I'm anti-semitic.

persecuting Christians? The Christian white nationalists would love that, they are all about being persecuted.

It is especially antisemitism when antisemites blame jews for Hamas not releasing the civilian hostages and not agreeing to a cease fire - which is what is perpetuating this war.

Antisemites fool no one other than themselves.

You know, I find that I don’t have to be right about this. There are many words for evil. I think most people understand the gravity of what’s occurred in Gaza. That’s the important thing to acknowledge.

There is absolutely anti-Semitism among the protesters... Just as there are a % of genocidal nutcases among the RW in Israel.

My general consensus is F' Hamas AND Likuud.

When I was young I protested about America's participation in a war in Asia, so I guess I am anti-American and pro Communism.

I've been frightened since 2015. The Parallels are uncanny.

Crimes against humanity vary and genocide is simply a definition.
Genocide of a small nation population could involve fewer deaths than a simple sick dictator might cause in a big country where politics not ethnicity divides the winners from the dead.

I do not know how to (e)value(ate) one evil over another. Using numbers strikes me as some kind of off-sider-ism ethics.

Last edited Wed May 1, 2024, 07:42 PM - Edit history (1)

incredible cruelity by the Nazis is almost unbelievable. When I seem Americans marching with Nazi flags, etc. it makes me wonder, who are these people that could be filled with so much hate? Are they not aware what happened in WWII?

I also cannot understand why the Israel government would so willingly kill and starve innocent civilians? I can totally understand the Israeli government wanting and needing to rid the threat of Hamas terrorists. But to have no empathy for the innocents seems the last thing they would do.

Humans are a flawed species, even though we are the smartest mammals on the planet. It just doesn't make sense.

So?

Now what?

Thank you! My almost 98 year old Jewish mil calls it genocide. She's older than the State of Israel.

Not going to change my mind

Same game.