ENOUGH ALREADY

You are like a broken record. Maybe, just maybe, you should put the blame of crimes on the criminal. I have not enabled murder and most gun (read nearly all) owners haven't either.

If you want to preserve your supposed "right" to carry a gun, you have to accept the responsibility of security that goes with it. What have YOU done personally to stop these mass murders from happening? Because, whatever it is it's been woefully inadequate AD YOU HAVE FAILED MISERABLY!

And no, that's not an invitation for everyone to prove their worth on DU.

It is never a good idea to ban opinions we don't agree with. That's also why I will never put anyone on Ignore.

Rights of Americans to keep and bear arms are no more 'supposed' than the right to free speech, freedom of religion, right to trial by jury, protection from unreasonable search and seizure. What other rights do you propose to limit so that you can feel more secure?

and your Gungeon buddies like to parade around are definitely regulated and restricted, and by that definition are "limited." There is no such thing as an "absolute" right, and that is why we have laws and courts to adjudicate them.

The "right to keep and bear arms" is NOT absolute, although you and the NRA are attempting to make it so. There is no "right" to walk around in public with a fucking gun strapped to your hip. There is no "right" to threaten someone with a gun just because you don't like them. There is no "right" to not be responsible for your actions regarding keeping your gun secure and out of the wrong hands.

The pendulum has started to swing the other way, and sane regulation of guns WILL be reinstituted. The right-wing Republican NRA has had its day, and now it's our turn Bubba.

Well... good luck with that, is all I can tell you. I love how so many are asserting that if we support the 2nd Amendment that we must be NRA members and proponents of right wing talking points. It is funny that almost all the gun owners that I know are proud Democrats and balk at being called 'right wing.' I have become used to it here. It would appear that purists will accept the following positions: 1. Ban all guns. 2 Ban all Semi-Auto and Handguns 3. Prohibitively tax all guns to the point where very few if any can afford. 4. Allow musket loaders/flint locks. Anything other than those positions and one must be a "right wing NRA murderous thug."

It's not going away. You can't silence us.

I see; using your same logic... the publishers of 'High Times' and users of pot and other illicit drugs are murderous too, no? Since those individuals directly or indirectly support Cartels that are murdering people left and right in their drug wars.

again, ENOUGH ALREADY

I LIVE IN FUCKING TEXAS....if I want to know what crazy gun nuts think I can watch the local news or ask a neighbor - DU is a SANCTUARY from right-wing nuttery - ENOUGH!!!

". . . the Left's version of the TeaBaggers?" You do realize you're parroting a right-wing talking point, right? And you actually see an equivalency here.

Here's yet another great example of just how totally broken the jury ystem is:

Get the fuck out!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2008270

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

YOUR COMMENTS:

Vulgar, bigoted call-out...clearly against the TOS.

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:01 PM, and voted 3-3 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Bigoted? I don't see that .........

Considering there's no callout and no signs of bigotry in the post I'm not sure why you're getting your panties in a wad unless it's my use of the word "fuck" at which point you might want to get out your fainting couch when you get on DU because you'll see that word a lot.

Now, go blow your nose and go get a cookie.

On a forum with actual objective moderation, I'd be more than happy to give you the response you deserve. Here? I'll just add yet another waste-of-electrons to my ignore list. Have a nice life, cull.

against a valid and sane position. The NRA, through its members, enables the most extreme, right-wing, asshats that ever bought a politician.

No, ENOUGH of YOUR defense of the indefensible. YOU do not make up the rules by which Democrats conduct themselves, and we have been much too quiet, for much too long on the issue of sane gun control.

Fuck the NRA AND its members.

sides, don't you think? Do you really want this site and the Democratic Party to be the left's version of FreeRepublic and the TeaBaggers?

interpretation, and it is wrong. DU has been allowed to express its true feelings about gun control after a very long run of right-wing bullshit being allowed from the Gungeon.

Again, it you support the NRA, or advocate "tolerance" of their views, YOU are a part of the problem.

Fuck the NRA!

the very Gungeon-like use of false equivalency. DU will never be like FR, and we don't need to support the fucking NRA to prove something that doesn't need to be proven -- especially to you.

The left hasn't been invited into the tent. Too full of "centrists" and right wingers. Most of us are still standing outside wondering what it looks like in that big pretty tent.

The teabag nuts.

tired old bullshit mantra. We are talking about the fucking right-wing, Republican supporting fucking NRA. Tolerance my ass!

People who are skeptical of the party of the rich find their way to our fold occasionally. Some of them have Christian beliefs like humility and social justice. I have had a few conversations with in-laws who felt that way.

There are more self identified Conservatives than Liberals in the US.
***
Not that any of this is about the NRA and the issue on DU.

we don't need to hear from the corporate gun lobby. You said that's what it is yourself. If the tent is that big, it's too big. Just my opinion, of course.

"Don't like the KKK. Then don't join it. Refute it. But shun some [one] who joins?..."

I'll admit this is somewhat hyperbolic (and I think there are some here who would argue that it isn't) but I'm curious as to your response.

Just how far would you extend the open door here on DU? If the NRA--which has castigated our president (and has on its board a member who has, on multiple occasions, called for his murder), worked tirelessly to defeat progressive Democrats, funneled tens of millions of dollars and millions of volunteer and paid hours into electing the most vile reactionairies--and all in the interests of a few major corporations reaping profits off of fear, injury, and death--if that organization is to be welcomed into DU with open arms, then where exactly would you draw the line?

Seriously, I want to know.

How about folks who praise the US Chamber of Commerce? Operation Rescue? Homophobic churches? Right wing militias? The Tea Party?

What does an organization have to do for you to say, okay, enough, we shouldn't welcome these folks and those who support them into a forum expressly built for progressive Democrats?

You lost that right by proving as a whole you are incapable of restraint. It is not a blanket attack, it is us normal people protecting ourselves. It was a gun and the gun must pay the price.

the very culture in which you live. You are being stereotypical. This is a nation with a long history and heritage of hunting and target shooting and gun ownership for home protection, and you will NEVER, EVER change that. Most gun owners, like myself, are very responsible and reasonable. As you saw from my post, I am NOT an NRA member and I support the assault weapons ban and many other regulations and reforms. But you are OUTSIDE REALITY if you think you are going to wipe out responsible gun ownership in this country. Please read by OP again. The answer here is to work TOGETHER to find SOLUTIONS we can all agree to. We do not need a national civil war over gun ownership.

It is one thing to own a gun. It is another to be proud of that to the point you have to bring it up on a Democratic board right after a mass murder.

Really what possesses someone to be so crass as to do the second, and should those same people who do not have the sense of a potato bug be allowed to have a platform to recruit more?

That's the problem.

eon

"wipe out responsible gun ownership in this country," we want to bring it back and ENFORCE it. What part of Gun control do you not understand? There are way too many guns falling into the hands of those who shouldn't have them, and it is you "responsible" owners who are allowing that.

We want responsibility and accountability -- NOT your fucking guns Bubba.

...is heard often just before things begin to change.

And they should be treated as such.

If you want freedom of speech on wingnuttery, there's plenty of other sites where you can exercise it.

members of the NRA instead of banning them?

We must not stick our fingers in our ears and chant "Nyah nyah nyah, nayaaa nyaa, I ca-an't hear you!" That's how we all lose.

If you're afraid to have a conversation with NRA members, maybe you need to hone your arguments against the NRA.

No, I don't own a gun and I'm not a member.

"To argue with a man who has renounced his reason is like giving medicine to the dead.” ~~~ Thomas Paine.

1.The NRA renounced all reason years ago.
2.Any attempt at debating dogma is a waste of time.

eom

great quotes.

Paine really nails it. Now I see why the gungeon (from which I'm banned since I made too many of the "liberals" over there uncomfortable) seemed like an insane alternate reality.

I keep getting into trouble for saying it, but wanting a gun (if your job doesn't call for it and you don't need it for wildlife protection) is a type of mental illness. Related to paranoia.

that's ridiculous. Some people target shoot, some people shoot skeet. Some people procure their own food. Normal people do those things. For the record, I do not own a gun, I do not want to own a gun, and I think we need to declare war on the NRA.

petition to forbid Support of the NRA on this site just like I vote, 5 or 6 times. Just kidding, I only voted once but I'll damn sure sign a petition 5 or 6 times to run the NRA's dumb-ass off.

fer chrissake. it amazes me what magical hold guns have on some of you . it warps your thinking.

The logic does fail on that one.

They have not said a peep since the Newtown shooting. They took down their FB page and haven't said a word on their Twitter page (they did exactly the same thing post-Aurora for 10 days, not their FB page). They are cowards and they are trying to make a plan to deflect all of this. I'm hearing some sort of deflection from the NRA supporters- "It's not about the guns, it's about mental health care."

That said, I think their silence implies support for these mass shootings to keep occurring. I'll take it as that.

something is wrong. I'm thru with the NRA because of their lies during the election, also they do go overboard. In the case of this shooting it is about mental health. The people on this site the last two days think they can make the guns go away, they can't. The drug people have guns, lots of them, as long as they have a gun I'll have mine. Mexico is controlled by the drug people and their guns. The US does not need to be in that same position.

It's the easy access to firearms. Harris and Klebold wanted guns and got them. Lanza wanted guns and got them. Holmes wanted guns and got them. Cho wanted guns and got them. And all the other mass shooters, as there are far too many, wanted guns and got them.

If you start cutting off the easy access to firearms, it will be harder for the drug people to obtain them and take them to Mexico. And criminals as well. Simple.

I'm reminded of the Luby's massacre where a CCW WOULD NOT HAVE WORKED, despite the fact that Suzanna Gratia Hupp kept claiming that if she had been able to bring her gun into the restaurant, she'd have stopped it. Wasn't there a mall shooting where a CCW guy confronted the shooter and he was shot to death? Oh and the Congresswoman shooting? A CCW guy nearly shot the wrong guy. CCWs DO NOT WORK and it is more harm than good (people love to cite the incident where two young yobbos tried to rob a little casino with a broken handgun and the CCW guy drove them out, although he was not watching exactly where he aimed, moving along as he was shooting, and he could have seriously hurt innocent people).

People keep saying that if the principal had a gun, she would have stopped the young man. I will counter that argument with if the young man had a smaller magazine round (3-6) and had to change the round after shooting out the doors, the principal would have tackled him. But NO, it HAD to be legal to have a THIRTY ROUND MAGAZINE!!!!

The Mental Health argument is a deflection away from the problem of easily accessible firearms. Just today I read about a little boy who accidentally shot himself in the head by a gun that was left out in the open.

they are not the John Waynes they want the world to think they are

well past time to do that

The NRA above all else is about getting republicons elected by scaring gun owners about Democratic "gun grabbers". Those views should not be welcome here any more than the NRA welcomes gun control legislation. They have plenty of other places to spew their shit.

Please bring back the unrec button.

open support on DU? Surely if there were people supporting the anti-GBLT lobby, they would be banned. I hope we wouldn't tolerate oil-industry-sponsored propaganda denying climate change. I hope we wouldn't tolerate anti-union stuff from the Koch Brothers.

So why the NRA?

This is supposed to be a message board for progressives and Democrats. There already is censorship. You already can't come here and post that Michelle Bachmann should be president and Obama is a Kenyan. Why should supporting Wayne LaPierre and Grover Norquist be any different?

or the right to use them for hunting or target practice.

The problem is in your mind that the term "gun rights" and RKBA are all so associated with owing guns that you *think* you can't talk about those terms without mentioning NRA rhetoric. It's a supreme bit of marketing on the NRA's part.

Who planted that idea in your brain? You honestly think you did?

When a constitutional right becomes so closely associated with a corporate lobbying firm, it's time to jettison the firm. The NRA doesn't own the 2nd amendment. You just think it does.

Plus all the other fucked right wing organizations.

Lets welcome the homophobes, the racists, the misogynists. Heck lets welcome republicans.

I do support increased moderation and juries with mandatory hiding to keep NRA and gun support posts in the forums that were created for them.

Or agree with.

That alone is suspect.

Yes, Mr. Heston,we will take the power from your cold dead hands. Save our children from the NRA.

to defeat Democrats is absolutely insane on a site called Democratic Underground. Case closed.

I hate the noise. I hate the smell. I hate what they do to any living thing when the bullet rips through a living thing. Assault weapons are made for nothing else but to kill other living things. You can't get away from that fact. And another thing I hate - the NRA. The bullshit that spews from that org is enough to make me puke on a daily basis. But I am also a gun owner. Not by choice but by necessity. I live in the country and do my best to raise as much food of my own as possible. But I had to face the fact years ago that I have to protect the creatures under my care from the other animals that see them as food. I am amazed at how easy it is to get a gun in this country. No one told me I had to get a background check (I bought a rifle). No one told me I was required to take a gun safety course. No one asked about my mental health. Nothing, nada, nil. While I don't think we should ban the NRA, we definitely need to start changing the discussion on guns in this country and how we view them and how they effect our society. The only way to stop the NRA is to change the attitudes of people in this country thus making the org irrelevant.

The NRA is a de facto lobbying wing of the Republican Party. Supporting Republicans is a bannable offence already. In case you haven't noticed, there's already significant censorship of political speech in this forum. One is not allowed to advocate against the Democratic Party, or for the Republican Party, or for the Libertarian Party, or for the Green Party (at least not during election season).

I also don't like the NRA and I don't even have a gun.

At the same time I don't think you can play McCarthyism, which is what the person who posted the petition was asking for.

We have a system in place to deal with problems:

1) Juries

2) MIRT

3) Admins

Does that work perfectly all the time? No. I've been on juries dozens of times where I've disagreed with the outcome.

I do believe something has to be done to stop the violence and a free and open debate of ideas should be held within our own party.

The petition is asking without any other reason as someone is assumed to be an NRA member be banned. So we are really going to act as judge, jury, and executioner with no evidence. That's just dumb.

Isn't it more fun for some to irrationally say:
"Fuck the NRA."
"Fuck the NRA talking points."
"Fuck the NRA supporters."
"Fuck the NRA sympathizers."

Or that's what I'm guessing. We could just get an online guillotine and once we convict anyone who smells like an NRA supporter have an execution. I feel like that's what people are asking for.

(seriously I was joking about the guillotine and only using it to overstate my point, just in case someone thinks I not joking.)

eom

....I personally reserve the right to be very critical of the NRA, and the people who belong to that organization, as long as they continue to support the sale of assault weapons. Until that changes, I plan to use the DU "Ignore" and "Trash this thread" functions rather liberally. I simply refuse to read and/or reply to their constant excuses and attempts to deflect the blame for the Newtown shooting on anything but the easy availability of legally and illegally purchased firearms.

Just my opinion, but all of the efforts the US Government is currently directing toward enforcing pot laws could be redirected toward enforcing what I hope will be new gun laws in the very near future.

You're free to leave

RL

Free speech allows bad ideas to be shown for what they are, rather than pushed out of view.

The NRA is pretty reviled right now, and rightly so, but that's no reason for them to be banned from DU.

Shheeeeshhh...

for folks to belong to any legal organization they choose. Good post, BTW.

And if you want to give the baby killing assholes a venue, open your own fucking website. They aren't welcome here anymore.

you see a need to own a gun. The choice implies a certain misprision regarding how much control you have in this particular universe. Guns are simply too dangerous to allow in a civilian context.

As for the NRA, it is a lobbying group that has little serious engagement with the real issues surrounding guns. In other words, they are a proganda wing, so why engage them? Like the tax ideologues in the Congress, they are not interested in the give-and-take of discourse except as a rationalization for the continued presentation of what is an a paranoid, anacronistic perspective built on pure fear. If you want sportsmanship, learn to run distance.

Don't talk to me about free speech when what you do can too easily cost lives. Words rarely kill; bullets often do.

is smarter than their lobbying arm and in the past, despite it's more progressive leanings, is largely ignored by the lobbying end.

I am very much for gun regulation, hate the NRA lobby for the steaming pile it is but agree overall with your post.

Not only would censorship be hard to manage here but having friends who are members of the NRA, this is pretty much what they have told me about the NRA. It does function well in terms of training, safety issues, etc. and from what I can tell, there is no other organization in place that does this.

There are more efficient ways of dealing with the issue of gun violence and addressing the NRA lobby is only one.

The NRA goes against our values as Democrats and Progressives.

Supporting the NRA just because you own guns is the equivalent of supporting the AFA because you are a Christian.

Some marksmanship competitions are run by the NRA, and you need to be a member to compete. Not all members contribute extra to Wayne LaPierre's antics.

Like church, you can attend and contribute without buying into every position of the Vatican.

And those numbers of people are used in lobbying to force the hands of our representatives.

Also there are membership fees are there not?

... that are WAAY more annoying than Grovelbot on his whiniest days.

They even recommended some Democrats for congress, like my Rep.

Just because some Democrats are in the NRA and they support some rightwing Democratic candidates doesn't mean they should be granted a platform for their propaganda. Many Democrats were and are racists or homophobes. Want to give them a soapbox?

Another thing, the victory dances they want to do everytime some crook gets killed by civilian guns is despicable.

...they should be boycotted. The blood is on the hands of everyone of their gun adoring members.

I own two handguns and a long gun, and hold a CCW permit.

If you support one, you support the other.

End of discussion.

but I still oppose them as a right wing organization devoted to electing TeaPubliKlans and have a tendency to get outside of their area into other conservatism I cannot swallow.

I don't own any guns but the calls to ban the NRA are a knee jerk emotional reaction. I don't do purity tests on something some people don't like, eclectically one that's gaur entered in the Bill of Rights.

The calls for these bans remind me of something Jim Robinson would do.

You may now fire away ay me.

You are free to bash the NRA here, and I hope you do. But we Progressives dont do purity tests. Big difference.

Have your guns if you must. But don't support Crossroads GPS, the American Family Association, the NRA, or other right-wing outlets. Advocacy for these groups should not be permitted here.

not represent Americans. They represent gun manufacturers. They are a bane on our country and should be shunned. I personally believe that censorship and intolerance is exactly what is needed. I don't care what their point of view is, it's wrong. If 20 little children dead is not enough to convince people that there is no place for pro-gun groups in this country, then what is? I don't want any more talk. I want action. I do not want to hear their side of the story. I've heard it all before. This is not the time for discussion. This is the time to put an end to discussion and ban these baby killing weapons for good.

Post gun shit somewhere else

... something, maybe call it "Gungeon".

But when there's a tragedy like this week, "gun shit" permeates LBN, GD, Meta. The rules are suspended.

but I think Skinner and crew decided to let the topic into all the big forums after the tragedy. I'm sure they'll start enforcing the gungeon rules in a week or two.

Right now, emotions are too high to bother trying to contain.

I'll sign whatever I fucking want. And anyone who thinks gun-lovers and gun humpers should be included in the Democratic party is a fucking idiot.

eom

If one is a member of a right-wing political action committee (the NRA), the obvious extrapolations would be as appropriate as if one belonged to Focus on the Family, Promise Keepers, or The Heritage Foundation.

Let's allow them our broad and open-armed support.... since we're all about liberty (in all caps), democracies (in all caps, too), and America (in all caps, part three).

the NRA is a right-wing Republican group, and anything that advances its agenda also advances the Republicans. Supporting Republicans is not allowed on DU, so why should the NRA be given a Democratic platform with which to spout its neoconservative bullshit?

My living room and privately owned web sites are NOT democracies, and there is no freedom of speech in these venues. "Censorship" already exists on DU as people are regularly banned for spouting right-wing and Republican bullshit. We ARE intolerant of neoconservatives and right-wingers, and rightfully so. Most of us do not wish to hold hands and sing Kumbaya with fucking right-wing Republicans. "Diversity" does not mean including lying, unbending, subversive assholes into one's group.

DU is not affiliated with the Democratic Party, but we are Democrats. Membership in the NRA, or agreement with their policies, promotes their agenda and is detrimental to Democrats and works against the goals and aims of DU.

The only things keeping conservative politics on life support.

...and have contempt for those I see driving with that little decal on their window.
However, I do support you on this issue.
DU needs the voices of responsible hunters, gun owners, and rural residents.
The mobs with the torches and pitchforks calling for the outright banning of guns,
and blaming every gun owner for the tragedy in Connecticut are off the deep end.

DURec!

I am normally an ACLU level proponent of free speech; any attempt to ban speech is not onyl wrong, but will do nothing but make the undesired product desirable. However, the NRA is an organization that pretends to be a bunch of gun advocates, but is notorious for funding the GOP in any way, for any reason.

I am not saying throw the gun group out, or that democrats cannot have an opinion on guns that is opposite of most, but we can target a SPECIFIC organization whose motives seem to go way beyond guns.

Be a gun owner, fine, but do not help the NRA and have any illusions about the fact you are helping the right wing.

We should hire "anonymous" (the one that hacked the Westboro site) to hack all 200,000 DU member's computers so we can find out which ones are members of the NRA. Then we can hire George W. Bush to oversee the executions.

I understand people use the NRA for discounts and certification purposes, however singing the NRA's praises here is a different story.

We do not allow the promotion and support of repubs on this site.

The NRA stands for everything we are against.

I see no reason to allow for their support in any way.

Another OP along similar lines was locked earlier, so this one is going the same way...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022002543