General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsFor Those of You Freaking Out About Woody Allen
I post this again:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/01/27/the-woody-allen-allegations-not-so-fast.html
"Moses Farrow, now 36, and an accomplished photographer, has been estranged from Mia for several years. During a recent conversation, he spoke of finally seeing the reality of Frog Hollow and used the term brainwashing without hesitation."
DURHAM D
(32,617 posts)those who don't believe Woody could possibly be a pedophile because there is, after all, no video.
WeekendWarrior
(1,437 posts)And investigators said it was fabricated.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)includes molestation. I agree with the investigators. We really do not know.
WeekendWarrior
(1,437 posts)who concluded she was NOT molested.
pnwmom
(109,021 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)cui bono
(19,926 posts)Last edited Sun Feb 2, 2014, 06:45 PM - Edit history (1)
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/01/27/the-woody-allen-allegations-not-so-fast.html
pnwmom
(109,021 posts)That is a far cry from "fabricated."
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)has been found.
Pound away.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I see no relationship between a man attracted to sexually mature women (albeit young ones) and someone who is attracted to pre-pubescent children.
Making that logical error is somewhat like those who say there is a link between homosexuality and pedophilia.
Both are wrong.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)what we want, but none of us know."
Inclined to give it a second thought? Pretty fucking flippant, wow.
The author spent almost 3 years on various Woody glorification projects and keeps saying he's not there to trash Mia or side w/ Woody, but that's pretty much all he does here. Doesn't address a lot brought up in the more balanced VF piece, so there's some pretty selective editing going on too.
DURHAM D
(32,617 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)last word when so much is left unadressed. The guy has obviously got an agenda, so much so, he denies it at least three times, LOL.
I don't know what really happened, but that article is a mess.
WeekendWarrior
(1,437 posts)found no evidence of child abuse and suggested that Dylan was coached.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)I heard the family "declined to prosecute" but could have. Seems that no real conclusions were reached. I am guessing neither of us know.
WeekendWarrior
(1,437 posts)The family didn't decline to prosecute. The investigatorspeople who specialize in sexual abusesaid there was no evidence of molestation. As for the coaching, THIS is from the article. Apparently you didn't bother to read it:
"As for the evidentiary videotape of young Dylans claims, its been noted that there were several starts and stops in the recording, essentially creating in-camera edits to the young girls commentary. This raises questions as to what was happening when the tape wasnt running. Was Mia coaching her daughter off-camera, as suggested by the investigators? Mia says noshe merely turned the camera on whenever Dylan starting talking about what Daddy did. Maybe we should take Mia at her word on this. Since I wasnt there, I think its good policy not to presume what took place."
And just for shits and giggles, I'll add this here:
"Mias allegations of molestation automatically triggered a criminal investigation by the Connecticut State Police, who brought in an investigative team from the Yale-New Haven Hospital, whose six-month long inquiry (which included medical examinations) concluded that Dylan had not been molested. "
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)..... to skew it to look as if coaching was their conclusion. Nope.
I believe most of this is regurgitating Woody's claims, right? I don't think the "investigators" had any final answers. I know the article looks like "case closed", but it's bullshit.
WeekendWarrior
(1,437 posts)This article is pointing to THE FACTS. Not what people "think." A team of investigators found no evidence of molestation after a six month investigation. That is a FACT. Woody Allen was not prosecuted. That is a FACT.
I again think it's clear that you have not read this article. Why don't you actually take a moment to read it, then get back to me, instead of making uninformed assumptions.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)and those are both facts.
Accused rapists and molesters don't go to trial all the time, prosecutions are difficult to obtain. There is a difference between doing something, and being found guilty of it in court.
I did read this article, and others- that's how come I KNOW the author was biased- and left out important facts to skew opinions in favor of Woody. (Who he is making money off of as we speak)
No "investigator" said their final conclusion was that the kid was coached. None. Sorry, THAT is BS.
WeekendWarrior
(1,437 posts)and has been shown to be a friend of the Farrow family.
I said it elsewhere, but I'll say it again. I find it pretty amazing that people on DUwho claim to be progressivesare so quick to find Allen guilty until proven innocent.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)WTF, are you reading someone else's posts?
Maybe someone who uses the word "think" as frequently as you do, LOL? Because your replies to me don't have much to do with what I have said at all- especially not my comments on the author's very deceptive editing.
WeekendWarrior
(1,437 posts)the belief that people should be considered innocent until proven guilty.
You apparently don't share that belief. The facts are clear. I'll state them again. The investigation team, after a six month investigation, including physical examinations and interviews with all concerned, found no evidence that the young girl had been molested.
I'm sorry those facts don't matter in your world.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)But no one in their right mind believes every crime that occurs actually ends up being prosecuted in court.
So, there's that.
And also the fact that we are not in court, LOL. But.... carry on as if we are, it's fun to watch!
WeekendWarrior
(1,437 posts)and completely ignore them.
You're really embarrassing yourself. I hope you realize that. You certainly have a right to your opinion, but that opinionif we look at the facts availableis wrong.
Court or no court, any other conclusion is just silly.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"people on DUwho claim to be progressivesare so quick to find Allen guilty until proven innocent..."
Only courts may decide guilt or innocence. People-- even those on DU who "claim" to be progressive merely have benign opinions, premises and conclusions. To think otherwise is pretty amazing too.
(insert distinction without a difference here)
WeekendWarrior
(1,437 posts)From the lead investigator.
http://www.nytimes.com/1993/05/04/nyregion/doctor-cites-inconsistencies-in-dylan-farrow-s-statements.html
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)WeekendWarrior
(1,437 posts)You're just being ridiculous now.
"The team told Mr. Allen and Miss Farrow on March 18 that it had concluded that Dylan was not molested, but the transcript gives the first look at the thinking behind that finding."
I mean, seriously. Get some help.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)quote it appears you'd like to avoid acknowledging. But it is what I have been saying all along.
Hope that "helped" you out. Cause you have put waaaay to many words in my mouth.
WeekendWarrior
(1,437 posts)Read what comes BEFORE that quote. He's talking about whether Dylan is a "disturbed child" or was coached. He's not talking about their final conclusion that she was NOT molested. This is his theory on why she may have said what she said.
You're REALLY stretching here.
EDITED TO ADD: Look, you can cherry pick all you want. This doesn't change THE FACT that the investigation concluded that she was not molested. End of story.
CSStrowbridge
(267 posts)You are a liar. It's as simple as that.
The entire quote from Leventhal makes it clear they are unsure why Dylan made up these charges, but concluded she made them up. They were unsure if Mia coached her to make these charges.
How could you have possibly read the second part of the quote without reading the first part. The only conclusion I can make is that you are a liar.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)along the process, the judge certainly thought there was something going on, the prosecutor too.
Like I said, I don't know what happened, and guess what? NEITHER DO YOU, SO CHILL THE EFF OUT.
cthulu2016
(10,960 posts)have an odd way of showing it.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)the article blames Farrow for (5X married) Previn dumping his wife, and claims it's comparable to Woody because, yeah- that's just like cheating on your long term partner *with her teen daughter*.
My opinions are- we don't know, we cant know- and Woody and Soon Yi pretty much deserve each other. That's about it.
Response to CSStrowbridge (Reply #50)
HangOnKids This message was self-deleted by its author.
cthulu2016
(10,960 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)for obvious reasons.
my point -ONE LAST TIME-
Is none of us KNOWS what did and didn't happen.
And this article was biased crap from a dude making money off of Woody.
WeekendWarrior
(1,437 posts)He makes it clear right at the beginning that he has worked with Allen, but that doesn't discount the fact that most of what he outlines is already public record. From the New York Times:
"Last March, a team of child-abuse specialists at Yale-New Haven Hospital, who were brought into the case by prosecutors and the police, concluded that Dylan had not been molested."
"A Connecticut prosecutor's handling of a child-molestation complaint against Woody Allen was cause for 'grave concern' and may have prejudiced the legal battle between Mr. Allen and Mia Farrow, a disciplinary panel has found."
None of us knows what happened. But based on the evidence, we have a pretty good idea.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)who wasn't bothered by what a hatchet job it was toward both Mia and her children. You should find the VF article and see how much this author left out in order to get that slant.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)I'd bet there are very few people involved in the case who aren't biased.
Your selective use of one set of biased people is also biased.
pnwmom
(109,021 posts)by interviewing her nine times.
Each time a trauma victim has to repeat her story to strangers, she is subject to being re-traumatized. Why would they have done this except in an effort to catch her in contradictions and/or wear her down?
WeekendWarrior
(1,437 posts)to the accused. Especially since her mother was in the room during some of the interrogations.
It's pointless to dismiss the investigation on that basis.
pnwmom
(109,021 posts)Dr. Diane Schetky was an associate professor of psychiatry at the University of Vermont, and co-author of the textbook Child Sexual Abuse and co-editor of Clinical Handbook of Child Psychiatry and the Law.
http://www.andythibault.com/columns/CT%20Magazine%20-%20Apr%2097.htm
The team interviewed Dylan nine times. For three consecutive weeks, she said Allen violated her sexually. In several of the other sessions she mentioned a similar type of abuse. When Dylan did not repeat the precise allegation in some of the sessions, the team reported this as an inconsistency.
The nine interviews were "excessive," Schetky says. "The danger is the child feels like she's not believed if she's asked the same questions over and over."
WeekendWarrior
(1,437 posts)in charge of the investigation, rather than someone watching from afar?
He said Dylan changed her story multiple times and seemed to be rehearsed. Mia Farrow was sometimes in the room during those interviews, so if anything, that would be prejudicial against Allen.
What Schetky has to say is interesting but ultimately irrelevant. She wasn't there.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)I guess it's a commentary on how difficult it is to try he said/ she said cases. I doubt we will ever know what really happened.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)"Its quite possible as a matter of fact, we think its medically probablethat (Dylan) stuck to that story over time because of the intense relationship she had with her mother.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)not sure why you responded with a different quote either? want to quote the judge next? or Dylan, for perspective?
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)largely recapitulates.
"The campaign began in the November issue of Vanity Fair in a profile of Mia Farrow by Maureen Orth, a long-time friend (Orth is the widow of NBC's Tim Russert)"
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/03/woody-allen-dylan-farrow-abuse-allegations
CatWoman
(79,302 posts)Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)joshcryer
(62,287 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)groundloop
(11,530 posts)Tx4obama
(36,974 posts)An Open Letter From Dylan Farrow
http://kristof.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/02/01/an-open-letter-from-dylan-farrow/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0
WeekendWarrior
(1,437 posts)joshcryer
(62,287 posts)El_Johns
(1,805 posts)defacto7
(13,485 posts)Last edited Sun Feb 2, 2014, 02:45 AM - Edit history (1)
the whole thing is a decades long Woody Allen stunt in cooperation with the Farrow's and all other participants for the craziness of world domination of tabloid media. Maybe art.. like Salvador Dali who near the end of his life signed thousands of blank canvases just for the hell of devaluing his own art... as art. Then there's Andy Kaufman....
or not.
on edit: After reading other comments on the subject, I have to clarify that what I am saying. The idea we know something because we read it is as absurd as what I wrote in this comment above.
hunter
(38,340 posts)Shit like this happens EVERY FUCKING DAY and the mass media ignores it or makes it worse.
Turn off the god-damned T.V. and make the world a better place for the community you live in.
There are demons walking among you, and there are innocent neighbors who have been falsely charged.
Look out for them!
Amanda Knox and Woody Allen are stories, they do not exist in my personal universe. Nothing I could say, nothing I know, could make any difference at all.
WeekendWarrior
(1,437 posts)It can stop very easily and give you peace. You don't have to click the link.
See how easy that is?
hunter
(38,340 posts)siligut
(12,272 posts)And plenty of people are glad they are willing to share their wisdom.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)the problem is we are not learning from the experience of others here, people are reading media gossip and making judgments with that information. There is no wisdom to be found in reading it. It's repeated and bludgeoned for the entertainment value, no more. If you or others are entertained then we should acknowledge that, not mistake it for learning or wisdom.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)for yourself.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)to watch perfectly well educated people mistake tabloid media for wisdom and education.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)because there is not a lot of that going on here. Seen very little of it here in the last 8-9 years. But never expected to either.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)In post #21 it stated learning from others and from their wisdom. That's where I began my replies.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)opinions about them. some times it's interesting just to see what people say.
It's better than comments sections in a lot of articles, but not always. Good reads often has good links, but GD is a lot of self reverential wacking off these days. I don't know that anyone comes here for an education. I hope not!
defacto7
(13,485 posts)siligut
(12,272 posts)My post was explaining to weekendwarrior why Hunter would bother to take time to remind people to remain focused on what is important and on making the world a better place.
I hope you are just tired and confused, because seriously [URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)NBachers
(17,170 posts)quinnox
(20,600 posts)"Every time I stumble upon this topic on the internet, it seems the people who are most outraged are also the most ignorant of the facts. Following are the top ten misconceptions, followed by my response in italics:
#1: Soon-Yi was Woodys daughter. False.
#2: Soon-Yi was Woodys step-daughter. False.
#3: Soon-Yi was Woody and Mias adopted daughter. False. Soon-Yi was the adopted daughter of Mia Farrow and André Previn. Her full name was Soon-Yi Farrow Previn.
#4: Woody and Mia were married. False.
#5: Woody and Mia lived together. False. Woody lived in his apartment on Fifth Ave. Mia and her kids lived on Central Park West. In fact, Woody never once stayed over night at Mias apartment in 12 years.
#6: Woody and Mia had a common-law marriage. False. New York State does not recognize common law marriage. Even in states that do, a couple has to cohabitate for a certain number of years.
#7: Soon-Yi viewed Woody as a father figure. False. Soon-Yi saw Woody as her mothers boyfriend. Her father figure was her adoptive father, André Previn.
#8: Soon-Yi was underage when she and Woody started having relations. False. She was either 19 or 21. (Her year of birth in Korea was undocumented, but believed to be either 1970 or 72.)
#9: Soon-Yi was borderline retarded. Ha! Shes smart as a whip, has a degree from Columbia University and speaks more languages than you.
#10: Woody was grooming Soon-Yi from an early age to be his child bride. Oh, come on! According to court documents and Mias own memoir, until 1990 (when Soon-Yi was 18 or 20), Woody had little to do with any of the Previn children, (but) had the least to do with Soon-Yi so Mia encouraged him to spend more time with her. Woody started taking her to basketball games, and the rest is tabloid history. So he hardly had his eye on her from the time she was a child."
Now here is my comment:
I think it is very important to understand that these allegations were made during a child custody battle. I think this context from the article is very important --
"I know Im treading a delicate path here, and opening myself up to accusations of blaming the victim. However, Im merely floating scenarios to consider, and you can think what you will. But if Mias account is true, it means that in the middle of custody and support negotiations, during which Woody needed to be on his best behavior, in a house belonging to his furious ex-girlfriend, and filled with people seething mad at him, Woody, who is a well-known claustrophobic, decided this would be the ideal time and place to take his daughter into an attic and molest her, quickly, before a house full of children and nannies noticed they were both missing."
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)Texas has common-law marriage. There is no time limit. I know people who think that if you shack up for six months you will wake up married. This is incorrect.
First you have to have no prior impediments: 1. Legal adults 2. who are not presently married (includes separated) to someone else.
3. You must cohabit (this has a particular legal meaning)
4. At least one of you has to have intent to be married.
5. You hold yourselves out to the public as being married.
No time limit whatever.
In the Marvin v. Marvin case regarding "palimony", if they had lived in Texas, Michelle Triola Marvin would have had a solid case for a common-law marriage. She abandoned her singing career and changed her last name to Marvin.
California does have community property, in which both parties are assumed to be able to contribute to the support of the family and children by working, and both genders may be ordered to pay child support, and so does Texas. Michelle Marvin was given a limited monetary award to get back on her feet and working.
I have heard someone tell me that "Women in Texas don't have to pay child support." This is erroneous.
Texas does not have alimony. Texas has separate maintenance for a limited time after the divorce. The marital property and child custody laws are much more equal than New England states because of the Spanish law influence. Spanish law is much more equal as far as women's rights than the English law in New England or the French Law, the Code Napoleon, in Louisiana.
I learned all this in Marital Property class when I attended a Texas law school. Yes, I earned a Juris Doctor degree (Doctor of Jurisprudence), so that makes me a lawyer.
quinnox
(20,600 posts)Most of that post is a direct quote fron the linked article.
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)tammywammy
(26,582 posts)Texas law is irrelevant, they lived in NY.
B2G
(9,766 posts)New York is, and they don't recognize Common Law marriages.
So how is the article wrong?
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)El_Johns
(1,805 posts)"A more mischievous part of me wanted to repost (Farrow's) tweet, but swap out her link for one leading to an article about the recent 10-year jail sentence received by her brother, John Charles Villiers-Farrow, for multiple counts of child molestationa topic shes been unusually quiet about, considering her penchant for calling out alleged (let alone, convicted) molesters to whom shes exposed her children."
"One of the witnesses who testified on Polanskis behalf was Mia Farrow, who, Im told, remains friendly with the director to this day. I commend her for standing by her friend and going on record as a character witness. Thats what friends do. In fact, her support of Polanski is so steadfast that when he won the Oscar for best director for his 2002 masterpiece, The Pianist, Mia never even suggested that the Motion Picture Academy showed contempt for all abuse survivors in so honoring him. But then again, those were the days before Twitter."
I find all of them creepy.
2banon
(7,321 posts)saw references made in a different thread, and I thought it was some sort of weird antiquated analogy. this can't possibly be a story for Feb 1st 2014, or is it?
pnwmom
(109,021 posts)Dylan is old enough to speak for herself now. Moses is ten years older, a busy senior in high school when the behavior was supposedly going on, and not in a position to know what Woody was doing with Dylan when he was alone with her.
I'm not calling for Woody to be imprisoned or even put on trial. But I believe the young woman, not him.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)Nicholas kristof, who gave Dylan a platform, is also a friend of Farrow's.
There is no unbiased reportage here.
And IMO rehashing this 20 years after the fact is orchestrated, not accidental.
me b zola
(19,053 posts)PSSSSST....He's a fucking creep.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)defacto7
(13,485 posts)You can think he's a fucking creep, that's cool. But not because he married his daughter.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)to wonder if the guy ever had healthy boundaries.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)But I have never known him or Mia or any of the others, so it's impossible for me to know. We just imagine.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)what was she thinking?
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)He was 42.
He is disgusting.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)red dog 1
(27,903 posts)And thanks also to Robert B. Weide.
OwnedByCats
(805 posts)Does anyone else think Ronan looks more like Frank Sinatra and not like Woody at all? I know Mia said Frank was "possibly" Ronan's dad and looking at him he looks like Frank and Frank Jr. I also read that Nancy Sinatra treats him like he's family. The one child Woody was supposed to have fathered may not be his after all. Probably a blessing if I'm honest.
Voice for Peace
(13,141 posts)Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)OwnedByCats
(805 posts)but after looking through pictures of Frank Sr and Frank Jr and compare them to Ronan, there is quite a resemblance. He looks nothing like Woody. He however does look like a good mix of Mia and Frank.
OwnedByCats
(805 posts)If Woody is the father, I doubt I could believe it!
Dark n Stormy Knight
(9,773 posts)I've looked at a few other pix and it seems clear. But, I wouldn't want to be responsible for making some legal decision based on what it looks like to me.
Still...
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Moses knows exactly what his mother did to Malone....and that is why he reunited with his father.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Andre Previn was married to his song writing partner, Dory Previn. Dory and Mia became friends, Mia was 24, the Previns much older. Andre left Dory and married Mia, half his age. Dory Previn wrote a song about her called 'Beware of Young Girls'
Beware of young girls who come to the door
Wistful and pale, of twenty and four
Delivering daisies with delicate hands
Beware of young girls, too often they crave
To cry at a wedding, and dance on a grave
She was my friend, my friend, my friend
I thought her motives were sincere
Oh yes I did
Ah, but this lass, it came to pass
Had a dark and different plan
She admired my own sweet man
She admired my own sweet man
We were friends
Oh yes we were
And she just took him from my life
Oh yes she did
So young and vain, she brought me pain
But I'm wise enough to say
She will leave him one thoughtless day
She'll just leave him and go away
Oh yes
Beware of young girls
Beware of young girls
Beware
Now let's remember that Mia kept up her affair with former spouse Sinatra while taking up with the married Previn, while married to Preven, while dumping Previn, then later while she was with Woody Allen.
Just some perspective, both Mia and her mother have a tendency to paint themselves in very excellent and saintly light that others might not see as suitable.
Also see the Dory Previn song 'With My Daddy In the Attic'.
BainsBane
(53,112 posts)but stand up for Woody Allen. Why?
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)It is not the same thing. Long before Allen, Farrow was distrusted by tons of people for all sorts of very specific reasons.
I see lots of discussion of Allen's every action and joke, as if his character was of importance, so it might be fair to take a moment to glance at the character and actions of Farrow and of Previn. If the idea is to protect the children, not Mia and Andre and Frank and Woody, well then why be upset with the facts about the adults being discussed? Why are some of them protected from their own damn history?
I did not realize that the other adults and parents involved were above all reproach in the current telling. That's not how I look at it.
BainsBane
(53,112 posts)Whatever you think of Mia Farrow is irrelevant to whether Dylan is telling the truth. The sins of the mother to not transfer to the daughter.
Disbelieving rape victims is a default position for many, something that occurs to no other victim. If someone reports their property being stolen, people don't then start talking about what a horrible person the victim's mother was. Why should they do so in the case of child rape? Disbelieving victims is why the crimes of rape and child sexual abuse are so difficult to prosecute. We can't know with absolute certainty what the facts of this situation are, but we can choose how we respond to this and other victims of rape and child sexual assault. We can think about what we want our role to be vis a vis rape culture.
I fail to see how this differs from any of the cases where priests have been accused. The only difference I can see is that the victim is female and the accused molester her father. Surely that doesn't make it less serious or the victim any less believable?
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Some sort of implications there. I note you said not a word about what I wrote, and instead made an attack upon my character. I do not think such a comment is called for at all.
I am talking about the adults. Of whom I have an opinion. Your need to protect the adults is counter to the protection of the victim. 'How dare you imply that Father O'Doyle is anything less than a saint!'. Some adults, above all suspicion. I don't buy it.
BainsBane
(53,112 posts)I also reedited my post. Yes, I know girls were also victims, but as I'm sure you know the Catholic clergy cases differ from the majority of child abuse cases in that the majority of victims have been boys.
Above suspicion? What crime has Mia been accused of? She is not the alleged abuser here. You've got some things badly twisted. Adultery is not a crime. It is in fact entirely irrelevant to Dylan's account of abuse. You are the one blaming the person who notified authorities. Why? How is that in any way relevant? You're using that attack to defend the metaphorical Father O'Doyle. Why?
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)You implied prior to edit that I cared less for a female victim of abuse. Vile, shitty and not acceptable. You are not allowed to speak to me in that way and then edit, claim you did not and absolve yourself.
I'm not overlooking that vicious bullshit you posted. An implication of the worst sort made based on nothing but a need for snarky rhetoric. Utterly unacceptable behavior.
Bye now. You lack even the decency to apologize and instead you edit and deny. Let members check your edit history and see the facts.
BainsBane
(53,112 posts)but your over the top insults far than exceed what I said. For the record, I said "I wouldn't like to think. . ." Not the best choice of words, which is why I edited. You've more than made up for it, and you've said far, far worse to me in the past.
The fact is you are deflecting and not examining your position in this issue. I only raised the issue with you because I was surprised you posted what you did, unlike in the case of some of Allen's other defenders. It did not seem in keeping with your previous positions on similar issues. Clearly I was mistaken.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)"With my
Daddy in the attic
That is where
My being wants to bed
With the
Mattress ticking showing
And the tattered pillow slip
And the pine
Unpainted rafters overhead
With the
Door closed on my mama"
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)WTF?
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)You seem to absolve Mia Farrow of her very own actions. I think she's responsible for herself and Andre for himself. How is this a problem?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)And he doesn't have a great track record there, does he?
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)on my doorstep. My post, you might note, was critical of Andre and Mia. She is also responsible for her 'own shit' as you so deftly put it. And having an affair with your friend's husband is in fact ones own 'shit'. Dumping your spouse to take up with her friend half your own age is Andre's shit. Being that young friend is Mia's own shit. And shit it is. Tip of a shit ice berg in fact.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)got involved with had a soft spot for young girls- and of course- it is the girls fault when they are chased by married men. Mia's fault, not Frank or Andre, Soon Yi, and the HS senior he dated, not Woody.
Ah, the spells the young ones cast are no match at all for a wedding ring. How's that for vomit?
Walk away
(9,494 posts)Allen and his pedophilia. The rest of us are just very sorry for his victims and rather disgusted with him.
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)And creepy.
Walk away
(9,494 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)I don't trust any of the Farrows. Mia's brother is in jail for long term abuse of multiple kids. Mia has not said a word about that. It was the now imprisoned brother that first told the press about Allen and Soon Yi Previn, the 19 year old adopted daughter of Andre Previn and Mia Farrow. The story served him well for a time, but only for a time. He's in jail now.
Soon Yi and Allen have been married happily for 15 years now. Andre, busy on marriages 4 and 5, said this about his adopted daughter Soon Yi 'She does not exist'. What a great man! He himself once took a wife half his age, barely 24. 'She does not exist'. The 24 year old was Mia, Andre was married to Mia's friend, but he dumped her for Mia. A great man! 'She does not exist'. Mia continued her relationship with ex Sinatra throughout the Previn 'marriage' and then during her dating of Woody Allen. Great, great, moral people of the highest order, to be believed because of who they are and how they have lived!
TheSarcastinator
(854 posts)Anyone who claims Allen is innocent until proven guilty is OBVIOUSLY hiding "something", according to the posters above.
Of course, this is the vilest, most slimy smear imaginable: if you insist on evidence, you may be a child molester yourself. It's disgusting to watch the way certain posters on this website use this tactic over and over again in an attempt to steamroll anyone who objects to a trial by media and popular opinion.
TheSarcastinator
(854 posts)Disagreeing with you and insisting on the legal presumption of innocence does not make anyone a child molestor or an apologist for molestation, as you are obviously implying.
Disgusting tactics. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Squinch
(51,075 posts)woman recounted the story of her father's sexual abuse of her when she was a child.
"Why don't more people come forward to report sexual abuse?!!"
treestar
(82,383 posts)I haven't even considered freaking out about him since the 70s.
BainsBane
(53,112 posts)over a man. I've heard it a million times. Child abuse and rape continue because people refuse to believe victims and make excuses for perpetrators. That is why it's called RAPE CULTURE.
WeekendWarrior
(1,437 posts)A team of doctors conducted a six month investigation of this case at the time of the alleged incident and found that not only did it have no merit, but that it was likely the child had been coached by her mother. This is all public recordincluding court transcriptsif you bothered to read.
But no, let's assume that because a guy who was exonerated has once again been accused of the very same disproven offense, that a failure to believe the victim is a product of rape culture.
The woman in question is a victim, all right. And so is the man.
BainsBane
(53,112 posts)Last edited Wed Feb 5, 2014, 04:03 PM - Edit history (1)
We now have a victim's clear statement. The determination to ignore that is clear. Research my ass.
The pattern of disbelieving victims is indeed part of rape culture. It is how it is constructed in case after case of sexual assault. Victims are disbelieved, prosecutors fail to follow through, and people take a statement from Woody Allen's publicist and present it as though it were fact. It is not. You want to pretend it's all about men vs women. It is not, at least not for me. Perhaps it is for you. The only reason gender plays a role is that most victims are women and most perpetrators male, and too many people assume women are lying, which is exactly what is happening here. My reaction would be identical if the accused perpetrator were female and the victim male. I will always believe a credible victim because I choose not to engage in the far too common pattern of disbelieving victims that is central to rape culture. Your appeals to "research" are bogus. You have ignored the key evidence: Dylan's recent statement.
I find is astounding how accused sexual predators are held in higher esteem by many than any other member of society. No politician is given that level of consideration, no other accused criminal, yet for some reason if a person is accused of sexual assault he is elevated in stature. I find it a disturbing trend.
WeekendWarrior
(1,437 posts)He says he was there at the time of the "incident," was 14 years old, that nothing happened and the culture in Mia Farrow's household was often one of rage and violence, that she hit him on numerous occasions, and that Dylan and the rest of the kids were poisoned to believe Allen was evil.
A nanny in the household at that time backed up at least part this story back in 1993, saying that she personally witnessed Moses being slapped across the face by Mia when he couldn't find a dog leash.
So now comes the question: who do we believe? The girl who claims sexual abuse by her father, or the boy who claims the only abuse was physical and emotional violence by the mother?
And why should we believe one over the other? Is there not a culture of disbelieving victims of emotional abuse as well? Do we ignore Moses's key evidence? And if so, aren't we applying a double standard.
Using rape culture to bolster your accusations is ridiculous. You can also point to the fact that most predators molest over and over and do it with multiple children, but why have there never been any other accusations agains Allen, especially after his alleged abuse came to light in the 90's?
Each case has to be considered not on statistics, but on evidence. Case by case. The evidence in the 90's showed, according to the investigative team of a man and two women, experts in child-abuse, that there was no molestation and that Dylan was either making it up or had been coached by her mother.
Now we have Dylan's adult recollections of something that happened when she was seven, and Moses's recollections of the same incident, and he was fourteen. So who's memory do we trust? Do we assume they're both telling the truth? Do we dismiss one as an opportunist and believe the other?
A bit of a conundrum, I'd say.
And the disturbing trend is this jump to conclusions based on emotion rather that taking the stance that the accused is innocent until proven guilty.
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)Jenoch
(7,720 posts)for me to know he's a dick.
Response to WeekendWarrior (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)But Mia has said he could possibly be Frank Sinatra's son. Moses and Dylan were adopted. Dylan's a woman.
Moses apparently has reunited with Woody & Soon-Yi and is estranged from Mia, Ronan and Dylan.
Response to tammywammy (Reply #98)
Name removed Message auto-removed
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)She easily could have thought he was Woody's and not until later, when Ronan's features became more apparent, realized he was possibly Sinatra's. Plus, we have no idea what goes on in their family, for all we know she told Ronan years before she said anything to the public about it.
cali
(114,904 posts)ugh. I now need bleach for my brain.
no_hypocrisy
(46,267 posts)I dealt with a contentious legal matter last year where my client, a mother of five, fought to prevent her parental rights from being terminated.
Her children were interviewed individually, alone, with the judge and later with two therapists. They were searching for testimony of abuse.
And the children claimed their mother neglected them and their father hit them. It didn't sound good at first impression.
Further examination of the totality of the circumstances found that the children were being brainwashed by their foster parents who wanted to adopt them. They had more money and material amenities in the foster home as compared to their original home.
When you compared their testimony, it was nearly identical. The kids had been rehearsed not only by their foster parents, but the child protection caseworker and even their assigned counsel. They stated their claims with great conviction.
I was the first to suspect false memory syndrome, where a child can be convinced that false information was fact, that something happened when it didn't. The judge agreed with me. The children were returned to my client. Matter of fact the judge didn't allow the children to return to say goodbye to the foster parents due to their contemptible role in trying to get the children to denounce their mother.
The children are now happily living with their mother, together. They all are on honor roles and take advanced classes. And they've had to take therapy to transition from the past 5 years of their lives.
My point: maybe Dylan Farrow is telling the truth, maybe not. More information is needed to know. All we can do is guess at this point.
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)quinnox
(20,600 posts)"disgraceful".
http://www.eonline.com/news/506626/woody-allen-cate-blanchett-and-alec-baldwin-respond-to-dylan-farrow-s-new-york-times-letter?utm_source=eonline&utm_medium=rssfeeds&utm_campaign=imdb_topstories
"It seems as though Woody Allen will not be staying silent following Dylan Farrow's recent open letter that appeared in the The New York Times in which she detailed her estranged father's alleged sexual abuse. 'Mr. Allen has read the article and found it untrue and disgraceful. He will be responding very soon,' Allen's publicist Leslee Dart said in a statement, suggesting that the iconic screenwriter will not allow himself to be publicly bashed."
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)LostOne4Ever
(9,292 posts)However, we would also weigh the facts objectively and most here would curtail their own political bias on a neutral site.
This is not a neutral site and on here I will gleefully cling onto any allegation against any rightwinger and use it to bash them over the head with it here. I hate conservatives and take joy in watching them squirm
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)It does clear up the misconceptions about him and Soon Yi (See Post #40 or the article for those). Whether he molested Dylan or not, I have no idea. My opinion has always been that he's a little creepy.
PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)El_Johns
(1,805 posts)"Of course Woody did not molest my sister," says Moses, who is estranged from Farrow and many of his siblings and is close to Allen and Soon-Yi. "She loved him and looked forward to seeing him when he would visit. She never hid from him until our mother succeeded in creating the atmosphere of fear and hate towards him. The day in question, there were six or seven of us in the house. We were all in public rooms and no one, not my father or sister, was off in any private spaces. My mother was conveniently out shopping. I dont know if my sister really believes she was molested or is trying to please her mother. Pleasing my mother was very powerful motivation because to be on her wrong side was horrible."
Moses accuses Farrow of bullying him as well. "Our mother has misled the public into believing it was a happy household of both biological and adopted children," he says. "From an early age, my mother demanded obedience and I was often hit as a child. She went into unbridled rages if we angered her, which was intimidating at the very least and often horrifying, leaving us not knowing what she would do."
Dylan:
"I will not see my family dragged down like this," she adds. "I can't stay silent when my family needs me and I will not abandon them like Soon-Yi and Moses. My brother is dead to me. My mother is so brave and so courageous and taught me what it means to be strong and brave and tell the truth even in the face of these monstrous lies."
http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20783306,00.html
Response to WeekendWarrior (Original post)
HangOnKids This message was self-deleted by its author.
pnwmom
(109,021 posts)should remember that a teenage brother, busy with high school, is unlikely to be following his 7 year old sister around all day. How would he know if she had been abused when she was alone with Woody?
WeekendWarrior
(1,437 posts)And why do you ignore Moses's characterization of his mother's rage and abuse and brainwashing and hatred for Allen after the Soon-Yi incident?
As I said in another comment, you can't look at these two and say one victim is lying and the other isn't. Because YOU DON'T KNOW. You cannot know.
And you shouldn't assume.
pnwmom
(109,021 posts)I'm not assuming anything. But when I saw people here instantly rise up and start to attack Dylan, I responded. Can you imagine the effect this backlash is having on other young people who may have considering acknowledging the harm done to them?
WeekendWarrior
(1,437 posts)Show me their statements.
Ronan was about four or five at the time, so I highly doubt he has any recollection of events at all and is merely regurgitating what his mother told him.
Two of the other kids are dead (one of whom was treated like a "scullery maid" by Farrow according to a witness), and the only other child I've heard from besides Moses is Soon-Yi who says the molestation charges are nonsense, has been married to the guy for over a decade and has two adopted children with him.
I won't even get into the fact that Farrow's brother is doing ten years for child molestation.
None of this is cut and dried. As such, we can't make any assumptions. We can only assume innocence until proven guilty.
pnwmom
(109,021 posts)from most of the living siblings.
None of the 8 interviewed for the 2013 article complained that adopted children had been treated any differently, much less like scullery maids; in fact, they said the opposite.
Soon-Yi was adopted by Farrow and Previn only one year before they were divorced, and Allen and Farrow began their relationship one year after that. So Soon-Yi saw more of Allen than she did of Previn. There are reports that falsely imply that Allen never spent any time at their residence. That was probably true in NY, but it wasn't in Connecticut. The Vanity Fair article said Woody often stayed in Mia's house there, until the problems started and Mia made him stay in the guest cottage.
FROM 1992:
http://www.vanityfair.com/magazine/archive/1992/11/farrow199211
Previn has also been supportive of Mia, and has told friends, If Mia is not a good mother, then Jascha Heifetz didnt know how to play the violin. Ironically, Woody Allen in the recent past praised Mia specifically as a mother. He told Eric Lax, the author of his 1991 biography, She has raised nine children now with no trauma, and has never owned a thermometer. I take my temperature every two hours in the course of the day.
SNIP
To those on the inside, however, who have watched the departure of Soon-Yi from the family, who have heard Dylan on the videotape and seen her changes of behavior, who have read the lurid headlines about Mia, who know about another approach Woody apparently made within the family, and who wonder if their phones are being tapped, Woody Allen is a chilling figure of power, a potentate of reel life who doesnt seem to have to play by the rules. This man is so exalted in the businessno one has the position he has. Until recently he hasnt had to submit a script or anything, says Leonard Gershe. I think when you get up into that stratosphere you no longer have to pay attention to the law of gravity. Regular morals, conscience, ethicsthats for slobs like you and me. The effect, says Gershe, spills over into real life. Hes treated like a little god, and little gods dont have to do what everybody else does. He just scares me, says a member of the household. I think he scares everyone who knows all the things he has done. And anybody who is close to himthat he has the potential of destroyingI think is scared of him.
SNIP
Most of my students are New York City kids. Many have parents who are glamorous and famous, and most of these kids are very neglected and troubled and grow up very fast, says Audrey Sieger, who has been tutoring the children in the Previn-Farrow-Allen household for the last 12 years. Mias family is very unusual. Sheat any time in these 12 yearshas been able to tell me in detail about every one of her kids. These kids travel on buses with bus passes. They cook dinner for each other. They do their own laundry. Different kids over the years have been assigned the job of going to the supermarket. They have not been raised by nannies. Mia, according to Sieger, was warm, loving, sincere, and throughout all my years of working with the kids, having them at my office, calling at home, they were happy kids, giggling and laughing and involved with each other.
I couldnt get over how much the biological kids werent favored. They all viewed each other as equal and always referred to each other as my brother, my sister, says Lorrie Pierce, who has gone to the house to teach the children piano for the last seven or eight years. Mia passes down family heirlooms to each one, without regard to who is adopted. The piano teacher echoes the tutor: Shes the one that kids threw up on. She gets right in the arena and does all the dirty work. She doesnt push them off onto the help. Every September, Mia would start a new film with Woody, and, according to those in the household, there was rarely a day when at least one of the children didnt accompany her to the set; she turned her dressing room at the Kaufman-Astoria Studios into a nursery for them. Creating a large family is not the act of a compulsive. Its too much hard work, says Mias friend Rose Styron, the human-rights-activist wife of novelist William Styron, who is Soon-Yis godmother. Ive never known anyone who cared so selflessly about children, and who put so much of herself into them.
They always came first. Perhaps that was the key issue for Woody: who came first? One of the people who has spoken up for him, his costume designer Jeffrey Kurland, said in New York magazine, Why this constant need [of Mias] for infants and little ones? Get on with your life!
FROM 2013:
http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2013/10/mia-farrow-children-family-scandal
Twenty years after Vanity Fair special correspondent Maureen Orth reported on the sexual-abuse case involving Woody Allen and Mia Farrows adopted daughter Dylan, Orth reconnects with Farrow to discuss her human-rights work, her relationship with Frank Sinatra, the home she created for her 14 adopted and biological children, and the scandal that nearly destroyed it, 20 years ago. For her piece in the November issue, Orth talks to eight of Farrows children, including the long-silent Dylan, who speaks on the record for the first time about the alleged incident.
SNIP
Farrows son Fletcher Previn, who built his first computer at the age of 13, tells Orth that he has Photoshopped Allen out of every single family photo and edited him out of family videos so that none of them would ever have to see him again. We can look at them and be reminded of the good and not be reminded of the bad, Fletcher tells Orth. Of the familys reaction to the crisis with Soon-Yi, Fletcher says, To my siblings and me, you thought of (Allen) as another dad. It can disrupt your foundation in the world. It resets the parameters of what is possible. He also discusses the impact Allens actions had on the family, telling Orth, There were casualties, who were totally derailed. It had a different impact on everyone, but everyone had a reaction. Fletcher singles out Lark, who died at 35. I really do think hes got some blood on his hands, he says of Allen.
http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2013/11/mia-farrow-frank-sinatra-ronan-farrow
There were never more than eight children at a time living at home, Mia says. In essence, there are two sets of siblings, six Previns and eight Farrows. The oldest are the Previn twins, Matthew and Sascha, and their brother, Fletcher Previn. Matthew, the father of two and married to a lawyer, is a partner in a Park Avenue law firm. Sascha, a teacher, is the stay-at-home dad of a baby girl, whose mother, his second wife, is a pediatric cardiologist. Fletcher is an executive assistant at IBM; his wife is a graphics designer. The next in age, Lark, adopted from Vietnam, died in 2008 of complications from pneumonia and left two little girls; her estranged husband has a criminal record. Daisy, also from Vietnam, is a construction manager in Brooklyn, married to a musician, with a son from her first marriage. Both women as babies suffered from severe malnutrition. Soon-Yi, from Korea, now married to Woody Allen, was adopted at seven, after having been abused and abandoned by her prostitute mother. She is totally estranged from Mias family, and she and Allen have adopted two daughters. Her father, André Previn, says, She does not exist.
Mia adopted Moses, who has cerebral palsy, from Korea at two. He is a family therapist and a photographer. Separated from his wife and two children, Moses does not keep in touch with any of the others.
Dylan was adopted in 1985 from Texas. After Mia gave birth to Ronan, she adopted Isaiah, an African-American born to a crack-addicted mother; he is a senior at the University of Connecticut. Tam, a blind girl from Vietnam, died from heart problems in 2000. Next came Quincy, also African-American, who at 19 attends college and wants to be an aid worker. Thaddeus is a paraplegic; he was adopted from India. A car mechanic, he is studying to become a police officer. The last daughter, Minh, from Vietnam, is also blind.
SNIP
I was able to speak to eight of Mias children, who uniformly said they were not especially aware of how unique their situation was growing up. I knew the status of my mom, but to me we were normal. My brothers were my brothers, and my sisters were my sisters. There was nothing special, Daisy Previn, 39, told me. We each had our own life, went to school, did our homework. My mom was there to sit down for dinner with us. There was help in the house, but not a lot, and sometimes the teenage girls would complain about how much they had to babysit. I asked Daisy about their emotional issues and physical handicaps. It wasnt considered that you cant see or you have this disability or that, she said. It was more that it was time to clean your rooms, so one person would help another one do it. One of the accusations Woody Allens side made during the uproar with Soon-Yi was that Mia favored her biological children. Daisy disagrees: If we got into trouble, it was no different than if a biological kid got into trouble. As far as love was concerned, there was no distinction. I gave my mom some very hard times growing up, but in the end she always said, Remember, Daisy, I love you.
Most of the children used the same adjective for their situation: cool. Not many people have that much variety, diversity. I liked that, says Sascha Previn. We all pitched in and helped each other out; we had to. Isaiah, 21, who at six feet three and 275 pounds defines himself as the large black male of the family, adds, In terms of size, composition, and disabilities, we werent normal, but we were greatwe were so cool. He credits Mias unflinching honesty. She was very open about what each one of us is and where we came from. That became more normal to me than the regular 2.2 nuclear family. We got used to that as soon as we were old enough to understand some of us have physical or mental disabilitiesso what? We are defined by more than just blood; we are brought together by love.
SNIP
WeekendWarrior
(1,437 posts)written by Mia's friend. I would hardly call it objective.
pnwmom
(109,021 posts)documentary on him is the puff piece.
The Vanity fair investigative reporter interviewed more than two dozen people for the second article, including people who criticized Mia. And she is a serious journalist with an extensive background.
Maureen Orth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maureen_Orth
Orth began her career as one of the first female writers at Newsweek, where she wrote seven cover stories. Between 1978-80 she was a Senior Editor at New York, New West Magazines. In 1981 she was the principal correspondent of Newsweek Woman on Lifetime TV. From 1983 to 1984 she was a network correspondent for NBC News.
Orth was a contributing editor at Vogue from 1984 to 1989 and a columnist for New York Woman from 1986 to 1990.
Orth has written for Vanity Fair since 1988 and has been a Special Correspondent for that magazine since 1993. Among the heads of state she has interviewed are Russian President Vladimir Putin, British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, Argentinian President Carlos Menem, and Irish President Mary Robinson. Shortly after the terrorist attack on the U.S. on 9/11 of 2001, which originated in Afghanistan, she traveled to Central Asia to investigate the connection between drugs and terrorism for "Afghanistan's Deadly Habit."