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xchrom

(108,903 posts)
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 07:18 AM Feb 2014

George Lakoff on Communication: "Liberals Do Everything Wrong"

http://www.alternet.org/culture/george-lakoff-communication-liberals-do-everything-wrong



"The progressive mindset is screwing up the world. The progressive mindset is guaranteeing no progress on global warming. The progressive mindset is saying, 'Yes, fracking is fine.' The progressive mindset is saying, 'Yes, genetically modified organisms are OK', when, in fact, they're horrible, and the progressive mindset doesn't know how to describe how horrible they are. There's a difference between progressive morality, which is great, and the progressive mindset, which is half OK and half awful."

George Lakoff, professor of cognitive science at the University of California, Berkeley, has been working on moral frames for 50 years. In Communicating Our American Values and Vision, he gives this precis: "Framing is not primarily about politics or political messaging or communication. It is far more fundamental than that: frames are the mental structures that allow human beings to understand reality – and sometimes to create what we take to be reality. But frames do have an enormous bearing on politics … they structure our ideas and concepts, they shape the way we reason … For the most part, our use of frames is unconscious and automatic."

Lakoff is affable and generous. In public meetings he greets every question with: "That is an extremely good question." But he cannot keep the frustration out of his voice: the left, he argues, is losing the political argument – every year, it cedes more ground to the right, under the mistaken impression that this will bring everything closer to the centre. In fact, there is no centre: the more progressives capitulate, the more boldly the conservatives express their vision, and the further to the right the mainstream moves. The reason is that conservatives speak from an authentic moral position, and appeal to voters' values. Liberals try to argue against them using evidence; they are embarrassed by emotionality. They think that if you can just demonstrate to voters how their self-interest is served by a socially egalitarian position, that will work, and everyone will vote for them and the debate will be over. In fact, Lakoff asserts, voters don't vote for bald self-interest; self-interest fails to ignite, it inspires nothing – progressives, of all people, ought to understand this.

When he talks about the collapse of the left, he clearly doesn't mean that those parties have disintegrated: they could be in government, as the Democrats are in the US. But their vision of progressive politics is compromised and weak. So in the UK there have been racist "Go home" vans and there is an immigration bill going through parliament, unopposed, that mandates doctors, the DVLA, banks and landlords to interrogate the immigration status of us all; Hungary has vigilante groups attacking Roma, and its government recently tried to criminalise homelessness; the leaders of the Golden Dawn in Greece have only just been arrested, having been flirting with fascism since the collapse of the eurozone. We see, time and again, people in need being dehumanised, in a way that seems like a throwback to 60 or 70 years ago. Nobody could say the left was winning.
78 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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George Lakoff on Communication: "Liberals Do Everything Wrong" (Original Post) xchrom Feb 2014 OP
Framing the Overton Window Fumesucker Feb 2014 #1
+1 xchrom Feb 2014 #2
+infinity. KG Feb 2014 #11
Agree. n/t lumberjack_jeff Feb 2014 #26
Got it in 1!!! Rex Feb 2014 #57
because they are not pragmatic, centrist, or moderate: they are corrupt yurbud Feb 2014 #75
Well Framed! 2banon Feb 2014 #76
I also see a lot of mockery and vitriol toward marketing and the study of communication by RadiationTherapy Feb 2014 #3
I've always said laundry_queen Feb 2014 #45
The Majority of Americans already agree with The Left... bvar22 Feb 2014 #55
I agree with you laundry_queen Feb 2014 #62
No argument here. nt Eleanors38 Feb 2014 #4
It seems to me that the reason the left keeps losing ground to the right every year... stillwaiting Feb 2014 #5
Thank you. The problem is not that they are inept. woo me with science Feb 2014 #9
+++++ marions ghost Feb 2014 #14
I would agree with you if I hadn't lived in purple and red areas of the country and talked to people stevenleser Feb 2014 #16
I agree with you, and especially senseandsensibility Feb 2014 #37
+1 Marr Feb 2014 #38
If it is only money that matters, then get more money treestar Feb 2014 #47
I see little evidence that is the case at all. In fact folks are manipulated all the time. TheKentuckian Feb 2014 #60
Absolutely it's about manipulating people. That's what it's all about, Treestar Scootaloo Feb 2014 #67
I like this paragraph: Chiquitita Feb 2014 #6
I agree that there is a problem with Liberal/Progressive framing, I'm just not sure about stevenleser Feb 2014 #18
You CAN do both........ socialist_n_TN Feb 2014 #21
Don't forget the call to action WhiteTara Feb 2014 #58
Always....... socialist_n_TN Feb 2014 #63
I'm sure you are very WhiteTara Feb 2014 #64
Persuasiveness in revolutionary political writing depends a lot..... socialist_n_TN Feb 2014 #65
Like this? loyalsister Feb 2014 #68
Looking forward to reading it..n/t 2banon Feb 2014 #78
In my opinion, the moments Obama and Clinton have been been most effective is when emotional Armstead Feb 2014 #32
I think he's onto something loyalsister Feb 2014 #69
I'd offer that LGBT rights have not been won with the reasoned moderation of an Obama Bluenorthwest Feb 2014 #56
that "biconceptualism" is important: it's not that there's a third "middle" viewpoint, MisterP Feb 2014 #66
Recommended reading: Drew Westen's "The Political Brain". Westen addresses this topic ... Scuba Feb 2014 #7
Read it.... ewagner Feb 2014 #10
And failing to appeal to the hard-wired stuff is foolish. Scuba Feb 2014 #12
I wonder.... ewagner Feb 2014 #25
Call me cynical then, because I do think many of our "leaders" do it on purpose... polichick Feb 2014 #39
I believe the wealthy very deliberately infiltrated and took control of the Democratic Party. Scuba Feb 2014 #71
I believe that too - one party, two faces... polichick Feb 2014 #74
I see the problem tiredtoo Feb 2014 #8
Thank You For Sharing cantbeserious Feb 2014 #13
What does George suggest people use to stay warm and commute? seveneyes Feb 2014 #15
He doesn't disagree with progressive policy positions, just how to frame them. nt stevenleser Feb 2014 #17
He's not communicating it well, however frazzled Feb 2014 #20
When Lakoff's ewagner Feb 2014 #27
You seem to think that they want to understand, I'm not so inclined. TheKentuckian Feb 2014 #61
THANK YOU!!! Gman Feb 2014 #19
Actually, he's saying just the opposite rrneck Feb 2014 #23
agree n/t ewagner Feb 2014 #28
What I read Gman Feb 2014 #44
K&R raouldukelives Feb 2014 #22
Because we assume that the Democrats in power speak for liberals? kentuck Feb 2014 #24
Progressives need their own Frank Luntz lapfog_1 Feb 2014 #29
yes grasswire Feb 2014 #41
We are afraid to strategist because we take our views for granted as being "obviously true" YoungDemCA Feb 2014 #51
All right I just posted this on my FB page tiredtoo Feb 2014 #30
You got the emotional part exactly right ewagner Feb 2014 #42
George Lakoff should GTFO of that ivory tower of his. . . DinahMoeHum Feb 2014 #31
We all have our roles in life Armstead Feb 2014 #33
Typical critic; Lakoff knows how something should be done. . . DinahMoeHum Feb 2014 #35
Is this post satire? (nt) YoungDemCA Feb 2014 #48
doesnt appear to be bobduca Feb 2014 #52
Here's a clue, he's a Political Scientist.. as in an ACADEMIC position bobduca Feb 2014 #50
That's all he's good for. An academic position. DinahMoeHum Feb 2014 #70
Rawr and stuff bobduca Feb 2014 #72
Ahem, academics like him can talk about campaigns. . .BUT DinahMoeHum Feb 2014 #73
There's something late in the article that resonates especially about disengagement from nature.... Armstead Feb 2014 #34
oops KG Feb 2014 #36
Metaphors are a problem. Can't we have the NSA just police metaphor use? Coyotl Feb 2014 #40
Obama is the closest to halting the runaway train. gulliver Feb 2014 #43
All show and no substance treestar Feb 2014 #46
There is nothing inevitable about the Right losing... YoungDemCA Feb 2014 #49
Conservatives always lose treestar Feb 2014 #53
Conservatism has done pretty well for the past few decades. Comrade Grumpy Feb 2014 #59
SO he does everything wrong? Rex Feb 2014 #54
Being labeled a Liberal used to be a compliment . orpupilofnature57 Feb 2014 #77

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
1. Framing the Overton Window
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 07:28 AM
Feb 2014
"In fact there is no center"


Exactly.

Which is why pragmatic moderate centrists are so lacking in ability to motivate people. There's no there there.





RadiationTherapy

(5,818 posts)
3. I also see a lot of mockery and vitriol toward marketing and the study of communication by
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 08:46 AM
Feb 2014

liberals. So be it, but they are very important topics to study.

laundry_queen

(8,646 posts)
45. I've always said
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 02:23 PM
Feb 2014

all the left needs is some good advertising campaigns. There is a lot of information to show marketing is extremely effective at getting people to change/make up their mind about a topic. The right knows this. The left thinks people are too smart to fall for that stuff.

They aren't.

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
55. The Majority of Americans already agree with The Left...
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 02:42 PM
Feb 2014

...when polled on an Issue by Issue basis.
The problem is with our conservative Leadership failure to even try and market (frame) these issues for the Public.

laundry_queen

(8,646 posts)
62. I agree with you
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 03:11 PM
Feb 2014

we need to find some way to make them realize they agree with the issues. They don't even know it. I've told this story before: during the 2008 primaries I was on a non-political message board but sometimes politics was discussed. Someone posted a quiz from a reputable source that said something like, "find out which presidential primary candidate most agrees with you on the issues". A bunch of hard core FAR right republicans then posted shit like, "hey, does anybody know who Dennis Kucinich is? That's who I got." It was pretty funny when we explained who DK was. MOST people on the site ended up with DK. The funniest was this one super religious fox-brainwashed republican who got Hilary. Omg, was she pissed. "this quiz is stupid" Pretty much NO ONE ended up with an actual Republican.

So yeah, most people agree on the issues - but they don't KNOW it. It's up to the Democrats to let them know who they REALLY agree with and why. This needs marketing.

Yes, the right frames everything because they use marketing to do it. They are marketing experts. It's time for the left to deploy some marketing experts of our own. Marketing helped the NDP (a 'socialist' party) here in Canada become official opposition. The ads were phenomenal. And they convinced a lot of people with those ads. It can be done quite easily - the Dems just want to have to do it, and that's another conversation for another day.

stillwaiting

(3,795 posts)
5. It seems to me that the reason the left keeps losing ground to the right every year...
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 09:35 AM
Feb 2014

Last edited Sun Feb 2, 2014, 10:45 AM - Edit history (1)

… is that Big Money continues to successfully buy pre-selected Democrats that they run in primaries and fund with astronomical amounts of money compared to any candidate that might actually allow for the pendulum to BEGIN to shift back to the left.

We here at DU are very effective at stating facts in clear, passionate ways that WOULD resonate with a majority of Americans. It is "our" elected Democratic officials who enjoy being bi-partisan and propping up a thoroughly corrupt Republican Party instead of fighting for the values they supposedly want to implement that effectively prevent the masses of people from seeing things clearly.

Then, some of us cry out that someone needs to TELL them up in D.C. how to frame issues because they're just so bad at it.

Or, "If only someone would tell Democrats how to negotiate effectively!!!"

No, we will need to change the way we elect "our" congress critters before we can prevent the corruption that's currently going on within Washington (including the Democratic Party).

Big Money will continue to try and put highly charismatic individuals into Democratic slots. Their charm will have to be incredibly high in order to get (some/most?) people to think that he/she really doesn't want to implement the neo-liberal, right-wing policies that they inevitably implement.

We need to take their ability to legally finance aka BRIBE politicians away or else it's going to get very, very, very ugly in this country.

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
9. Thank you. The problem is not that they are inept.
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 09:55 AM
Feb 2014

The problem is that they are only pretending to represent us.
 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
16. I would agree with you if I hadn't lived in purple and red areas of the country and talked to people
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 10:49 AM
Feb 2014

in both of those places.

It's not that I think you are 100% wrong. I think in fact you are partially correct, but so is Lakoff. It's not just a matter of saying here is the evidence of why we are right to undecideds and folks on the right. That will not work as Lakoff points out.

I'm not sure that Lakoff's prescription for how to alter progressive arguments is correct, only that some alteration is needed.

senseandsensibility

(17,204 posts)
37. I agree with you, and especially
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 01:28 PM
Feb 2014

with the part. It is no accident that our politicians frame things badly. I don't agree with this gentleman that they are doing so because they are trying to show voters where their self interest lies. If they were, it WOULD be effective with many voters. But they would have to do so boldly, simply, and clearly. They don't effectively show voters where their self interest lies because they don't want to. To me, it's obvious why they don't want to.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
47. If it is only money that matters, then get more money
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 02:27 PM
Feb 2014

This whole line of thought is about how to manipulate people. How to get them to vote without thinking. It's insulting to every human being. People know when they are being manipulated.

TheKentuckian

(25,035 posts)
60. I see little evidence that is the case at all. In fact folks are manipulated all the time.
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 03:00 PM
Feb 2014

That is why we cut welfare and social services as the need grows, that is how we are convinced to destroy our habitat with the lure of a hand full of jobs, that is how support for bogus war efforts is built, that is how poor and working class folks get behind "right to work" laws, that is how virtually every product is sold.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
67. Absolutely it's about manipulating people. That's what it's all about, Treestar
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 04:12 PM
Feb 2014

It's persuasion. Advertising. You're a big fan of president Obama, yes? well, that came from somewhere; he convinced you to become such a fan. That is, you were manipulated. it just happens to be that you don't mind the manipulation, just like yo don't mind when an advertisement convinces you to go buy something you enjoy.

I've been over this before. Liberals are bad at framing and worse at propagandizing. i think perhaps most of us just don't understand the concept of framing (I've seen good exceptions, mind, but in general.) However, there's a knee-jerk opposition to the very word "propaganda." In most liberal minds the word is linked with two other words - "lies" and "jingoism." But that's not the case. propaganda is just advertising, making a case for why someone else should believe what you believe.

Words are weapons and language is an armory. Here, let me give you example from the drug war ("drug war" is itself an example, actually, but...)

Crack cocaine.
Crack is a sharp, harsh word. It's guttural, the combination of velar and uvular consonants - KRK - making the word sound like you're coughing something gross out of the back of your throat. For something to be cracked, is for it to be broken, disjointed, fractured, fragmented, defaced, ruined. We also have the much less common "freebase" which sounds very similar to "debase" - to lower or ruin or corrupt.

Crack cocaine is popularly seen as "the worst drug." Cocaine addicts who smoke the drug are called "crackheads" - and this term is used as an insult in general, even against those who do not use the drug. Those who snort powder cocaine aren't really called anything - there is cokehead, but the term is uncommon and is never used in improper context... and while crackhead conjures images of a dirty smelly person scratching their arms and begging to suck a dick for a hit, a cokehead is just someone who's a little twitchy.

What if we called it crystal cocaine instead? It's etymologically accurate, as crack is just a resinous crystal form of cocaine. Well, Crystal has an entirely different sound than crack. it's softer, more sibilant, with light vowels. it's also a popular girl's name, and has meanings f purity, clarity, delicacy, and fineness. Now we have crystal meth as a drug... And medically speaking, it's probably more damaging. But... There's a popular band called The Crystal method. One of the most popular TV shows in recent years has revolved around the production of crystal meth. I for one don't imagine Walter White would be nearly as popular a character if he were cooking crack. Even if we take away the "crystal" part here, we're left with "meth" - a soft, aspirated word. I almost sounds minty (associative linking to fresh, menthol, breath.) The whole word - methamphetamine - sounds science-y because, well, it is. it sounds medical because well, it is. But that also makes it sound somewhat respectable.

End result? crack cocaine is seen as far worse than crystal meth, and VASTLY worse than "regular" cocaine... despite crack really being no worse than powder form and meth actually being more harmful than either. The word CRACK is the key to this.

================================================

So yes, it's about manipulation. Manipulating language to manipulate people. Using word choice, arrangement, sound and delivery to instill emotion and ideas in the audience.

Chiquitita

(752 posts)
6. I like this paragraph:
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 09:41 AM
Feb 2014
This is what he believes it would take to refashion the progressive mindset: the abandonment of argument by evidence in favour of argument by moral cause; the unswerving and unembarrassed articulation of what those morals are; the acceptance that there is no "middle" or third way, no such thing as a moderate (people can hold divergent views, conservative on some things, progressive on others – but they are not moderates, they are "biconceptual&quot ; and the understanding that conservatives are not evil, unintelligent, cynical or grasping. Rather, they act according to the moral case as they see it. If they happen to get rich, and make their friends rich in the process, that is just the unbidden consequence of wealth being the natural reward of the righteous, in their moral universe. To accept, let alone undertake, any of this, one would first need to accept the veracity of frames.
 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
18. I agree that there is a problem with Liberal/Progressive framing, I'm just not sure about
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 11:01 AM
Feb 2014

his solution. I certainly do not want to take to the airwaves with a non fact based approach. I can't get past the idea that using the emotional/moral rhetoric that he espouses is somehow wrong. Perhaps because it's the mirror image of what I see Republicans using and I don't like it when they do it.

socialist_n_TN

(11,481 posts)
21. You CAN do both........
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 11:58 AM
Feb 2014

Have your facts at hand to back up the emotions of your empathy. That's NOT the same thing as the RW does, making an emotional appeal WITHOUT the facts to back up that appeal.

I'm writing an article for the Worker's Power web site now about the budget deal and I've got the facts. I'm now processing the emotions involved in kicking the long term unemployed off the rolls and cutting SNAP AT THE SAME FUCKING TIME! That pisses me off emotionally and I've got the facts to back it up. I expect the article to come out with the facts laying out the problem and then an emotional and agitational appeal as to why it's just fucking WRONG!

socialist_n_TN

(11,481 posts)
63. Always.......
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 03:16 PM
Feb 2014
Even if the working class is not ready for the solution and call to action, I always conclude with that. All of our comrades and writers do.

socialist_n_TN

(11,481 posts)
65. Persuasiveness in revolutionary political writing depends a lot.....
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 03:52 PM
Feb 2014

on the consciousness of the reader. But thanks!

www.workerspower.net. Check it out for yourself.

loyalsister

(13,390 posts)
68. Like this?
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 04:22 PM
Feb 2014
Dear Mr. President and Secretary Perez:

On behalf of the National Council on Disability (NCD), an independent federal agency that advises Congress and the Administration regarding laws, policies, practices, and procedures that affect people with disabilities, I write in response to the 2014 State of the Union address and a subsequent White House call with community advocates regarding the impending Executive Order to raise the minimum wage for employees of federal contractors. NCD applauds your commitment to reducing income inequality, and urges the steadfast inclusion of Americans with disabilities in these efforts.


We like what you are doing here

NCD believes that the Section 14(c) program is a policy relic from the 1930s, when discrimination was inevitable because service systems were based on a charity model, rather than empowerment and self-determination, and when societal low expectations for people with disabilities colored policymaking. NCD stands for the principle that no person with a disability should be discriminated against in an employment setting by being paid less than the minimum wage available to all other citizens.


This is an old law and things have changed.

In our 2012 report, Subminimum Wage and Supported Employment, NCD recommended a gradual phase out of the 14(c) program and a concurrent shift of investment into supported employment.[3] As America rightly works toward increasing the minimum wage, we must assure that people with disabilities have the opportunity to rise to the same heights as other Americans.


The modern construct of equality is in line with your values.

We have a solution...

If the Administration agrees with this principle and wants to stamp out income inequality for all Americans, including Americans with disabilities, we urge you to reconsider what was shared on yesterday’s White House conference call and explicitly state in the Executive Order that the increase in minimum wage for employees of federal contractors applies to all employees of federal contractors, including the thousands of Americans with disabilities who are currently being paid less than the minimum wage under the Section 14(c) program. Additionally, we urge the Administration to publicly state its support for congressional action to phase out and eliminate the 14(c) program for all workers, just as it has publicly supported an increase in the federal minimum wage for workers without disabilities.


https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/hr831/text


As affirmed in the State of the Union address, “if you cook our troops’ meals or wash their dishes, you should not have to live in poverty.” We agree. Unequivocally, this must apply to all Americans, including people with disabilities. If executive action is appropriate to raise the wages of Americans without disabilities, it should be appropriate to raise the wages of those with disabilities.

NCD looks forward to working with the Administration to ensure that all Americans, including people with disabilities, have the tools necessary to lift themselves out of poverty, including a fair and equitable wage. If we can be of service as you consider the language of your Executive Order or on related issues, please do not hesitate to call on us.


We agree with you and assume that you are ready to work with us.


There is a radical way to use that strategy as well.

http://www.loc.gov/resource/mnwp.160002/




 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
32. In my opinion, the moments Obama and Clinton have been been most effective is when emotional
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 01:07 PM
Feb 2014

Obama is thought of as a cool customer who is coldly rational to a fault.

But the times when he has been most effective in ginning up support for himself or a policy is when he actually gets involved in something he obviously feels in his gut and appeals to the emotions.

Clinton, on the other hand, is seen as more of a good ol' boy bubba charmer, even though he is actually smarter than anyone else in the room. People respond to the emotional resonance of his charm and his apparent passion for his professed values. "I'll fight for you until the last dog dies."

Setting aside the contradictions with their actual behavior (and sometimes the content) both of them have been the best salesmen for liberal/progressive policies and values in contemporary history. Why? Because people respond emotionally to their arguments -- not because they are rational and pragmatic.

Even though they have been responsible for the opposite effect due to their centrist policies, there's a lot to be learned (IMO) from their ability to take liberal/progressive values and make them seem human and morally right.

loyalsister

(13,390 posts)
69. I think he's onto something
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 06:57 PM
Feb 2014

"take liberal/progressive values and make them seem human and morally right"

"No one who works a full time job should live in poverty" Is impossible to argue against.
When Obama said that, even Boehner clapped.
Instead of technical information, call them out. When he says "less regulation, lower taxes, etc." "Trickle down" How long will that take? Why should people have to wait? AND, don't forget to point out that these are your friends and neighbors.

I really think that making a broad brush assuming that every republican voter is heartless because they don't respond to facts is a mistake. In 2005, MO made very deep medicaid cuts in optional services. The cuts included oxygen provided outside of a hospital\nursing home. Talking about the expense is useful, but most people know someone or at least have some awareness of what not having portable oxygen would mean.

There was mass outrage, even from republicans AND some religious groups. Matt Blunt didn't even run for a second term.

.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
56. I'd offer that LGBT rights have not been won with the reasoned moderation of an Obama
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 02:43 PM
Feb 2014

chattering about Sanctity of marriage and God in his mix, but by people being shown that to oppose equality what they have to endorse is cruelty to actual individual people.
I'd offer that the recent rather amazing reversals on cannabis attitudes hinge greatly on people being shown that to oppose this medicine is to favor kids having seizures or taking hard core debilitating drugs. That coupled with the fact that over the years, almost everyone has known a chemo patient whose suffering was eased. Few are willing to be the person taking the meds from the dying and from children.
The current folks posing as 'centrists' do not engage in fact based arguments, nor in moral arguments because they have no facts and their morals are situational. They are unable to take a strong stand because they are too busy looking for their mark, the spot that is 'the middle' where they are no more liberal than they are right wing. That spot is a fiction.

MisterP

(23,730 posts)
66. that "biconceptualism" is important: it's not that there's a third "middle" viewpoint,
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 03:55 PM
Feb 2014

from which DLC ideas spring it's that they mix social liberalism with the hardest economic conservatism

we certainly need to dissect the ideas floating around the public sphere and where they came ffom: a lot of them are in fact manufactured outright by think tanks; others are just seen as givens (for example, the phrase "women, gays, union workers, Muslims, etc., are people too and don't need to prove their right to separate existence" would seem axiomatic--but that's just to us)

the GOP is "kite"-shaped--four nuclei (fundies, militarists, right-libertarians, corporations) all interacting and with their own power base and even publishers; the Dems are more like Neapolitan ice cream, a set of interests (gay, green, female, nonwhite, labor, academic) that gets very hierarchical at the top

 

Scuba

(53,475 posts)
7. Recommended reading: Drew Westen's "The Political Brain". Westen addresses this topic ...
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 09:42 AM
Feb 2014

... by examining past errors liberal candidates have made, and how they should have acted in those situations.

Should be required reading for every Democratic politician. One does not need to be a neurosurgeon or psychiatrist to understand the book.


Here's the notes for the book: http://www.westenstrategies.com/politicalbrainnotes

ewagner

(18,964 posts)
10. Read it....
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 10:03 AM
Feb 2014

also..."The Republican Mind"....

truthfully?

Knowing how much is hard-wired is disturbing

 

Scuba

(53,475 posts)
12. And failing to appeal to the hard-wired stuff is foolish.
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 10:08 AM
Feb 2014

Our side has blown so many chances a cynical person might think we did it on purpose.

ewagner

(18,964 posts)
25. I wonder....
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 12:26 PM
Feb 2014

our own hard-wiring makes us more susceptible to compromising and we don't often deal with absolutes...does our leadership try to pander to that characteristic? Does are hard-wiring make us believe that we MUST go to the middle?

polichick

(37,152 posts)
39. Call me cynical then, because I do think many of our "leaders" do it on purpose...
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 01:29 PM
Feb 2014

They are serving their constituents - and that ain't us.

 

Scuba

(53,475 posts)
71. I believe the wealthy very deliberately infiltrated and took control of the Democratic Party.
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 08:29 PM
Feb 2014

The two Parties have virtally identical fiscal and foreign policies, differing only on a handful of civil rights issues, if that.

polichick

(37,152 posts)
74. I believe that too - one party, two faces...
Mon Feb 3, 2014, 01:25 PM
Feb 2014

and as long as the people keep fighting each other, the ptb will keep stealing everything they can from this country.

But they also made sure there's no real news, only propaganda, which ensures that people keep fighting each other.

Hard to see the way out when most people don't even know how manipulated they've been.

tiredtoo

(2,949 posts)
8. I see the problem
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 09:46 AM
Feb 2014

have a difficult time trying to determine the solution. Sorry my friends but this is just a wee bit too heavy for me to figure out.

 

seveneyes

(4,631 posts)
15. What does George suggest people use to stay warm and commute?
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 10:39 AM
Feb 2014

Until a viable alternative energy source is in place, we have what we have.

frazzled

(18,402 posts)
20. He's not communicating it well, however
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 11:53 AM
Feb 2014

I'm not being coy in saying this. I'm serious. George Lakoff, god love him (and I have: I was a Ph.D. candidate in theoretical linguistics way back in the 70s), needs a sort of "physician heal thyself" on this topic.

He's been saying we're framing things wrong for the last 15 years. And not only is no one listening--those who do listen don't even understand what he's saying, or at least how to translate what he's saying into practice. If you haven't got your message out or understood successfully after 15 years, maybe you need to think about reframing your message.

ewagner

(18,964 posts)
27. When Lakoff's
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 12:33 PM
Feb 2014
Don't think of the Elephant was first published, it was a rage; a causus belli of the local Democrats...they even went so far as to splinter off and form Lakoff Discussion Groups which debated the message and the framing...and eventually petered out

I attended one and found them to be wonderfully academic but (because I am a street-level local elected official) I found them terribly irrelevant to what I needed to do or, what practical use they could be put to.

That's what I am getting out of this article now...

We need to translate our message/frame-of-reference to a practical purpose.

How?

I'm still thinking about that...and trying to mesh it with The Political Brain and The Republican Mind.

TheKentuckian

(25,035 posts)
61. You seem to think that they want to understand, I'm not so inclined.
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 03:09 PM
Feb 2014

I think they do not wish to make more effective arguments for our values and goals and would rather largely ditch both for more corporate ca$h and what they feel are largely captured votes.

Gman

(24,780 posts)
19. THANK YOU!!!
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 11:33 AM
Feb 2014

emotions don't convey diddly squat and only put the other person on defense. And you look stupid when although it is an issue of grave importance you're too tied up in your own emotions.

Somebody finally said it.

rrneck

(17,671 posts)
23. Actually, he's saying just the opposite
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 12:20 PM
Feb 2014
...they (liberals) don't know about framing, they don't know about metaphors, they don't understand the extent to which emotion is rational, they don't understand how vital emotion is, they try to hide their emotion.

Gman

(24,780 posts)
44. What I read
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 02:15 PM
Feb 2014

maybe into it was acting emotionally rather than purposefully will not accomplish much.

raouldukelives

(5,178 posts)
22. K&R
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 12:18 PM
Feb 2014

People are afraid to be themselves. To live as an individual and brave the elements and clamor for even basic dignities that would have sent our forefathers screaming into the night.
I can speak with someone in relaxed one on one situations and they speak on many issues as I would. Then you meet with them around other people and they devolve into mono-syllabic grunts of agreement with whomever the wealthiest in the room is.
Conditioned like an animal to respond salivating at the behest of a "Greed is good" system of our own making. They choose the feel good narrative over reality. Allowing them to nitpick at celebrity gossip and corporate picked scandals to placate feelings of disgust & helplessness.

kentuck

(111,111 posts)
24. Because we assume that the Democrats in power speak for liberals?
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 12:23 PM
Feb 2014

Most of them are part of the problem and only give lip service to liberal ideas.

lapfog_1

(29,243 posts)
29. Progressives need their own Frank Luntz
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 12:45 PM
Feb 2014

The problem is that we are smart and undisciplined.

Repukes are disciplined. When President Obama hinted before the SOTU that he was "prepared to go it alone"... the first thing out of EVERY repukes mouth was "King Obama" and "imperial presidency" and "illegal power grab".

They have disciplined the rank and file to parrot the talking point and simplify the argument to catch phrase. Never mind the actual facts behind the discussion... like the fact that Obama has issued fewer executive orders per year in office than any other modern President, never mind that Obama is issuing orders on the most innocuous of items... the repukes have conditioned the media and the population through the use of simplified catch phrase to brand Obama's actions as illegal and dangerous.

Progressives, usually better educated, smarter, want to have an intellectual discussion about the topic, to explore nuance and debate the ideas, to cite facts and such. Repukes just go for the base catch phrase, damn the facts.

And, should we ever even TRY to play by the Repukes "Luntz rule book" they immediately call us on it and we feel so chagrined that we apologize for the lack of footnotes and research... most recent example is MSNBC firing some poor patsy for telling the truth about the right's reaction to the multi-racial Cheerios commercial.

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
41. yes
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 01:41 PM
Feb 2014

....and liberals are afraid to strategize, for some reason.

The daily conservative FAX blast to "opinion shapers" has really outdone us over the last twenty years.

 

YoungDemCA

(5,714 posts)
51. We are afraid to strategist because we take our views for granted as being "obviously true"
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 02:34 PM
Feb 2014

We, as a group, assume that liberalism is the obviously reasonable and enlightened view, so we can't imagine anyone having any reason (let alone a good reason) to "vote against their best interests."

tiredtoo

(2,949 posts)
30. All right I just posted this on my FB page
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 12:55 PM
Feb 2014

"Does the fact that Republicans cut food stamps and unemployment benefits within weeks bother anyone else? Or should it just be a concern of the unemployed and hungry?
Is this something along the lines of what Lakoff is speaking?

ewagner

(18,964 posts)
42. You got the emotional part exactly right
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 01:44 PM
Feb 2014

Conservatives have already done a pre-emptive strike on the subject however...

conservatives have "framed" the terms "unemployed" as lazy "takers"; bums; leeches on society...

and the "hungry" as dependents, welfare queens/frauds/moochers etc.

I think Lakoff wants us to preempt the pre-emption...

DinahMoeHum

(21,826 posts)
31. George Lakoff should GTFO of that ivory tower of his. . .
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 12:58 PM
Feb 2014

. . .and work on an actual campaign to help get Democrats and progressives elected to office. Test his own theories, doncha know?


 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
33. We all have our roles in life
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 01:14 PM
Feb 2014

He's an academic, and he has used his skills to argue and try to advance a solution from that perspective. That's what he's good at.

We all have our own skills and abilities, as well as our limitations and weaknesses.

It's like when one poster on DU says to another whon criticizes a politician. "If you really believe that, why don't YOU run for office?!?"

Well, speaking for myself, I have my own skill-set and use those to advance my beliefs in the real world...But the best way to ensure that a Republican gets elected to a particular office would be to have me run as their opposition.

Most people are the same way. they do what they can in the ways that play to their own strenghts.

DinahMoeHum

(21,826 posts)
35. Typical critic; Lakoff knows how something should be done. . .
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 01:22 PM
Feb 2014

. . .but he doesn't have the balls to actually do it himself.

In the game of political strategy, the only real experts are the ones who actually manage campaigns. And Lakoff ain't no expert.

bobduca

(1,763 posts)
50. Here's a clue, he's a Political Scientist.. as in an ACADEMIC position
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 02:34 PM
Feb 2014

Anti-intellectualism is apparently not just for the right!

DinahMoeHum

(21,826 posts)
70. That's all he's good for. An academic position.
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 07:57 PM
Feb 2014

When it comes real-life campaign management and candidates, I don't want somebody with a "comprehensive political analysis": I want street fighters; people who are not afraid to get in there and kick the GOoPers' and Teabaggers' balls to hamburger.

Enough said.



bobduca

(1,763 posts)
72. Rawr and stuff
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 08:32 PM
Feb 2014

ok, well I am not so binary minded... Non-applied political science has it's place, in academia.

This was the context for my comment about "anti-intellectualism"

Your demand that all academic political scientists join the fray and manage campaigns is ridiculous.

DinahMoeHum

(21,826 posts)
73. Ahem, academics like him can talk about campaigns. . .BUT
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 08:41 PM
Feb 2014

1) they shouldn't act as if they're managing them unless they actually are managing a campaign.,
and
2) they shouldn't act like they're right and everybody else is wrong when it comes to managing campaigns.

Lakoff's know-it-all attitude turns me off, and my regard for him has considerably diminished ever since he wrote Don't Think of an Elephant. . .etc.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
34. There's something late in the article that resonates especially about disengagement from nature....
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 01:17 PM
Feb 2014

From the article:

"the urgency of his speech ramps up as he talks about monetising nature. "What we get from nature is remarkable. And then you get the people who want to monetise that. If it's valuable, what's the value? What's it worth? Which is the wrong question to ask, because, first of all, much of its value has to do with what is visceral to you. What does it mean to you if you hear the birds singing, or the birds all die? Second, as soon as you monetise something in nature, a cost-benefit analysis will come in. Nature always loses, because nature goes on for ever."

It is, plainly, the longstanding failure to protect nature that powers Lakoff's exasperation with liberals.

"They don't understand their own moral system or the other guy's, they don't know what's at stake, they don't know about framing, they don't know about metaphors, they don't understand the extent to which emotion is rational, they don't understand how vital emotion is, they try to hide their emotion. They do everything wrong because they're miseducated. And they're proud of that miseducation. Oxford philosophy reigns supreme, right? Oxford philosophy is killing the world."


-------
In other words -- (my own)

We aren't willing to fight for the things we believe in for theor own sake.

We believe that nature and the environment should exist for theirn own sake because it sustains life on a fundamental level. And we appreciate it for what it is....That should not be taken away locked up and destroyed purely to feed the greed.

And guess what? A lot of right-wing grassroots types actually agree with that too. But we lose the opportunity to win people over by expressing those common moral beliefs.

 

Coyotl

(15,262 posts)
40. Metaphors are a problem. Can't we have the NSA just police metaphor use?
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 01:39 PM
Feb 2014

English is such a simple language in many ways, and a very complex one in others. The ways need to be reversed. Why is almost every word for a part of a computer something else. Don't we know how to create words for new things? How are we supposed to know if we should touch a mouse or trap a mouse, see out the window or see in the window? Why is a computer a "system unit" instead of a new word? Well, that's how language grows mindlessly, with metaphors easing the way. And it keeps language both simple (easy to learn to name new things) and makes it more complicated (difficult to discern what is meant).

Give the NSA something useful to do with all that data, police metaphor use! No new metaphors without a bill in Congress.

gulliver

(13,200 posts)
43. Obama is the closest to halting the runaway train.
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 02:09 PM
Feb 2014

The left is actually doing pretty well, and the trend is our friend. I don't think you can say that about the supposed "authentic moral position" of the Republicans. It's certainly true that they do have that. They are comfortable in their own skin. They know what they believe. But they are seriously, seriously lost. Their self-destructive anger tells you that.

The Obama-style left works exceptionally well, because it is wise. It's not perfect, but it is damned good. It's like the Stones when you want The Beatles or Beethoven.

To say that the Dem (party) "vision of progressive politics is compromised and weak" is just plain wrong. Accusing Dem politics of "ceding ground" to the right and so forth is just ridiculous and, really, just kind of dumb and immature. Talk about framing. This "ceding ground" framing is just too dumb to be useful. If we want to emulate Republican dumbness, that's how.

Do we attempt to base morality on melodrama? It won't work. It does a disservice to morality to oversimplify the processes behind it. It needs to be informed by both Dickens and Darwin. It needs to notice where the people are and where the handholds of power are. The rest is just cliche.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
46. All show and no substance
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 02:26 PM
Feb 2014

Very cynical about people. Will he instruct us how better to manipulate them?

How is the right "winning?" Over the long term, they are destined to lose.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
53. Conservatives always lose
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 02:37 PM
Feb 2014

They fight a rear guard battle. If they win over the long term, it would still be the 1950s. Or earlier. They are the ones who have to manipulate the gullible.

I am for better ways of educating the gullible, not trying to keep them that way so they are easier to manipulate.

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
59. Conservatism has done pretty well for the past few decades.
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 02:59 PM
Feb 2014

Even when Democrats are in power. The discourse and the policies keep shifting rightwards.

Resistance to smart messaging is precisely the problem Lakeoff is talking about. And here's Exhibit A.

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