General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsOppressed Majority (possible trigger - warning)
Take the 11 mins to watch it.
Orrex
(63,263 posts)Posting an 11-minute video with no commentary.
I wonder how many will watch it all the way through without having any idea what it's about before they click on it.
boston bean
(36,225 posts)How they are treated, how they feel, but the shoe on the other foot. Give it a whirl and let me know your thoughts.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)Boston Bean's feminist activism will use our critical thinking skills to suss the focus of the video. I did, and I watched it. I'm glad she posted this video, and I wish the sexists and misogynists in this forum would watch and strive to empathize.
me too.
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)They either won't watch it, accuse BB of false equivalency or justify male behavior because, well, apparently, "boys must be boys."
they'll post a snark and hie away, pridefully thinking they're smart and amusing.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)and it is old and tiresome and downright boring.
I'm sure that your thoughtful reply will inspire the sexists and misogynists who lack your critical thinking skills to view the video in its entirety.
Others may be hesitant to check it out without some idea of its content, regardless of who posted the link. This has nothing to do with misogyny or sexism or a lack of critical thinking skills and everything to do with the fact that it's a vanishingly rare YouTube video that's worth watching past the two-minute mark.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)Wouldn't want to upset your apple cart, now, would we?
Orrex
(63,263 posts)I would submit that I'm not the enemy that you seem to want to believe I am, and in any case a mild criticism is not a sexist or misogynist attack.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)I'm sure you're confident about your apple cart.
Interesting, though, that you leap to the conclusion that I see you as "the enemy." You might want to examine that. You are on my list of members who regularly criticize, deride, minimize, belittle, derogate and/or snark threads on porn, rape, rape culture and other feminist issues. Given your response herein above, I doubt you'll examine that -- apple cart, and all...
Orrex
(63,263 posts)Last edited Sun Feb 9, 2014, 01:44 PM - Edit history (1)
boston bean
(36,225 posts)It was that good.
I don't think I need to give a summary... and the thread will sink, grow, or whatever. Thanks for the advice. I'll post how I would like. Or someone else could view it and make another thread.
Did you happen to watch past the 2 min mark? If so, what are your thoughts?
Orrex
(63,263 posts)Well executed, I agree, and it certainly makes the point. The most effective element IMO is the way the lead character conveyed his dismay and helplessness at the fact that, having identified the absurdity of the oppression, he was still largely powerless to change it or even to find allies among the equally oppressed. Rather like real life, I should think, for the people who do actually live under that kind of oppression.
Don't you find it fairly conventional, though? I mean, I watched very similar films in my Women's Studies classes in the early 90s, so the current video seems like more of the same.
Obviously, the fact that the message bears repeating is itself significant, but short of a captive audience (like the guy who sat in the back row of the aforementioned class), I don't know that anyone who really needs to watch it will sit all the way through.
I can see why you didn't post a summary, but I would think that the video would convey its message more effectively (to an audience that really needs to see it) in a more compressed format (with an awareness of the two-minute YouTube issue).
Squinch
(51,083 posts)You report that you found it too long, too unconcerned with the YouTube time issue, whatever that is, too repetitive to things you have already seen, too 90's. You report that you don't see why anyone would be interested enough to sit all the way through it.
Given that you found it so inconsequential, your concern about it seems to be misplaced.
I sat through it. Thought it was great.
boston bean
(36,225 posts)On another note... how you been? Been seeing all around, but I haven't had much time for posting lately.
Squinch
(51,083 posts)some work done. It doesn't seem to be working!
How are you doing?
boston bean
(36,225 posts)But that is a good thing. Wish this winter would end though. I'm about at my wits end with the cold, ice, snow.
Squinch
(51,083 posts)and went to sleep. Woke up for work Friday, and found that they had plowed 4 feet of ice behind all the cars parked on my street. Took me from 7 till 11 with a few rests to shovel myself and the car belonging to the old couple who live next to me out of the ice, and had to call out from work!
I love winter, but I won't be sorry to see this one go!
Orrex
(63,263 posts)Is it targeted at people already sympathetic to the message and therefore more likely to watch all the way through? The positive feedback in this thread seems to confirm that people already on board with the message have no trouble watching it.
Or is it aimed at people who are resistant to that message? What makes you think that such an audience will watch it in its entirety?
Also, what did you think was great about it, exactly?
boston bean
(36,225 posts)and from there what they may or may not have taken away from this short film?
The thread is fine, the posting of it is fine. Your concern is duly noted.
Orrex
(63,263 posts)If someone posted an 11-minute video on a topic in which you had no interest or to which you were unsympathetic, how far long would you watch it before bailing?
If the intent is to inspire people to consider another point of view when they are not already inclined to do so, then I submit that the length is not ideal to this intent. That's why pre-movie commercials are usually shorter than 11 minutes, for example.
If the intent is to appeal to the sensibilities of people who already agree with the message of the video, then 11 minutes is just fine.
If the intent of the OP was to invite feedback, then it seems to me that thoughtful feedback would be welcome, even if it isn't purely positive.
If the intent instead was to get an unflinchingly positive response, well, there's a group for that.
boston bean
(36,225 posts)People are very welcome to make non positive responses. I can't possibly stop that now, can I? Hell it's never stopped 'em before.
And my non comment to anything else you have stated does not imply agreement. I just don't feel like arguing the minutiae about target audiences with you.
Orrex
(63,263 posts)Squinch
(51,083 posts)For those who approach posts for "youtube issue" rule-following, and who feel that they need to thoroughly critique the formats of posts they are not interested in, and who are very concerned with pointing out those videos that some people might not click on, YOU definitely are that target audience, and seem to be having a great time with that. So enjoy.
As far as the content, the target is anyone who either has or has not considered what pervasive sexism looks like. For those who have experienced it, it is validating. For those who have not experienced it, it is instructive.
You have convinced me, and shame on me for not seeing it sooner.
I hereby withdraw my previous objection and apologize for gumming up the thread.
Upon re-reading the preceding sentence, I see that it looks like snark, but I truly don't mean it that way.
Squinch
(51,083 posts)issue with this post is whether or not you are convinced it is valid. You need to rethink that, too.
Orrex
(63,263 posts)*Your* articulation struck me as valid and thereby convinced me of my error in dismissing the film out of turn.
You have caused me to reconsider my response re: the film's validity. I don't know what more I can offer, since everyone else is likewise offering their own responses re: the film's validity.
Squinch
(51,083 posts)or not. You appeared to be questioning whether this thread should exist because of your objections to it. You seemed to need to be very vocal about your desire to dismiss the OP.
I often dismiss OP's because they don't speak to me. When I do, I don't need to post all my reasons for doing so. I assume that there is some value to others, because obviously there was some value to the poster. I know that any given thread isn't required to appeal to me.
Orrex
(63,263 posts)Others in the thread have expressed the opinion that providing a brief summary or comment about a video's subject--especially a comparatively long one--is basic netiquette. It's on par with not including "NSFW" or "trigger warning," and I note that both of these concerns were expressed elsewhere in the discussion.
That was my initial point, though I subsequently got sidetracked.
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)felt afraid for him, felt enraged for him at his powerlessness against an entire social norm.
Felt relieved that I (and the characters I immediately identify with--the women--) weren't being treated that way. They had power, which is not our everyday reality. So it felt good to "be powerful" for a moment
.
And then, at the end, the sudden twist that brings us back to the reality that, indeed, we women are living that reality. A punch to the gut.
So, that's what's so great about it. For women watching it.
For men
..well, first, a male viewer would need to be interested in gaining empathy. A perspective other than their own...
walking a mile in a high heel
.feeling for the main character as a fellow man and then extrapolating to women.
Perhaps there are women in your life you care about, and would like to see more clearly and feel for them?
To be able to go to a female friend and say, I understand more of what you live with, and I stand with you, more than ever
now that would be a positive outcome.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)as a general statement.
"They had power, which is not our everyday reality."
In my everyday reality, it seems like the women have at least as much, if not more power than I do.
And they know it.
Maybe that is just because of my status on the totem pole. That being at the bottom of society everybody has power over me, in SPITE of my Y chromosome.
this video just does NOT seem like "what you live with" on an average day for most women.
MadrasT
(7,237 posts)At almost age 50, well established in my career, and no longer bothering to present as obviously female? Maybe not.
Still often enough that the video resonated very strongly? And reminiscent of scenes from my past too frequent to enumerate?
Absolutely.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)"too frequent to enumerate"
As a math major, I know of no such "frequency."
Impocerous!
There are 366.25 days in a year. 1,440 minutes in a day, and sixty seconds in a minute.
As such, I have been alive 18,946 days or 27,282,240 minutes or about 1,636,934,400 seconds
OR (and here he grits his teeth)
1.64 times ten to the 18th nano-seconds of which I "wasted" about 3 times ten to the 11th writing this post.
MadrasT
(7,237 posts)So I will bid you a good day.
I am late for my weekly lap swim
but I am still not telling you to fuck off.
The list of numbers.
That was supposed to be funny.
Clearly I gotta work on my act.
Ms. Toad
(34,126 posts)Granted, advancing to rape or physisical sexual assault does not happen every day - but the rest either happens daily or the threat from the previous day lingers enough that I always hesitate when I enter the parking garage where my car is parked, or when I leave the building after most of my co-workers
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)I see a number of women every day, and most of them seem confident and self-assured. At least as powerful as I am. Like I said.
"In my everyday reality, it seems like the women have at least as much, if not more power than I do."
I might be just as nervous in a parking garage. Sometimes men get killed in them too http://pix11.com/2013/12/15/breaking-short-hills-mall-on-lockdown-reports-of-a-shooting/#axzz2swCq3jCV
The rest of what? Random guys on the street or even groups of guys make crude or suggestive statements about your body, every day? Every other day? Once a week?
Ms. Toad
(34,126 posts)I was sexually abused by a stranger who started by making suggestive statements about my body when I was 12 years old. Around the same time, a classmate grabbed my breast in class, in the presence of the rest of the class and neither the teacher nor my classmates did anything more than giggle. I was molested by my brother at around the same age. I was raped my freshman year in college by a stranger - again by someone who started by making crude or suggestive statements. Those are the bigger events which stand out in my memory - but there have been large parts of my life during which the comments were a daily occurrence.
Although I have refused to allow my conscious behavior to be controlled by reality based fear that my experience with sexual abuse has instilled in me, for two decades after that, I unconsciously made myself invisible by packing on 50-75 extra pounds. During that period the cat calls were less frequent - perhaps only once every couple of weeks, or once a month. I lost most of that weight when I was moving into a new job. Dressing for a prison visit shocked me into awareness of why I had been carrying all that weight when I found myself pawing desperately through my closet for something to wear to make me look fat. I still struggle with the eating habits I developed trying to maintain invisibility - and every time I lose weight the crude or suggestive statements pick up to a pace that is at least once a week.
The fact that this experience, and this frequency of sex used as a weapon is incomprehensible to you explains you you believe men have it just as bad as women. You literally have no clue.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)I don't think that is an experience of most women.
Most women are not gonna say "I was sexually assaulted at age 12" and "I was raped my freshman year" and "I was molested by my brother".
I am sorry that you went through that, but that does not equate to the experience of all women.
And if there is one comment a week or even one comment a day that makes you feel vulnerable, there is still the rest of the day and the rest of the week for you to have power.
My own perspective would say that
1. Yes there are some really nasty and dangerous people in this world. Many of them men. Shoot, that one beautiful young girl was just shopping at Target at about 6 pm when she was kidnapped, raped and then killed by some piece of excrement who is now serving life in prison.
2. But at the same time, there is a much larger population of mostly decent people, many of them men.
Most even semi-attractive women know that if they say "jump" that a good percentage of men will jump up and ask "how high?" That, in fact, many men will volunteer to help whether the women ask for it or not. Not because they think women are helpless or need the help, but because they want, even if just for a moment, that woman's approval.
I don't look at is as negative, as in "just as bad", but other than people who are victims of severe trauma - rape, assault, homicide,. Excluding those people, women seem, in this society, to have it "just as good" as most men, if not better.
Ms. Toad
(34,126 posts)My experiences range from the fairly mundane every day drip of sexism and harassment,to the extreme. But the fact that it is ever present takes a toll on every woman I have ever discussed it with - and I have discussed it with many women. I've also recently done a bit of blogging about the emotional impact of living in a society which uses the explicit or implicit threat of rape as a weapon. The response was pretty overwhelming. Many echoed my experience publicly on my facebook page where I linked it, and many more responded to me privately - thanking me for letting them know they were not alone in their experience. None disagreed - or suggested that was outside the realm of her experience.
Personally, I am far from powerless - nor do I allow it to consciously impact how I live. As an example, my current boss is upset with me because I occasionally choose to stay in my office to finish my work after the building in which I have my office has closed. I have a door which locks, and I am careful when I leave. I have no idea what her personal experiences are - but what she is afraid of (and how restricted her own life is) is very obvious from the tug-of-war we have about me staying late. Staying late also means I frequently walk after dark to my car in an enclosed garage. If someone I trusted offered - or was walking that way - I would not reject company. But I will not live my life in a box to make myself safe.
But the point isn't what portion of the day I have power. It isn't whether there are good men around - I certainly know plenty. The omnipresent threat that the use of sex as a weapon has on virtually all women, including me, has a cumulative emotional impact that (at least straight cis) men cannot understand because they do not live in a skin which is constantly the object of that threat.
MadrasT
(7,237 posts)When I watched it, I did not feel relieved to (vicariously) "have power". It made me feel uncomfortable that I share the same biological sex as the women in that video, because they were treating the "other" so unfairly and with such a narrow lens.
It felt... squicky to me.
Squinch
(51,083 posts)the way I am often treated.
However, the relief part was there too. The idea that the woman was perfectly safe on the dark road at night (till reality broke in) or that another woman was peeing in public with no repercussions. Those women did seem safe in a way we never do.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)might feel a certain discomfort and impatience in watching it.
In my opinion it was just the right length. Had it been shorter it would not have conveyed the endless tedium that sexual harassment brings to a woman's life. The horror of knowing that if you smile too much at someone, they will think you are flirting. The constant questioning "Why me?" "Am I being too friendly?" "If I wear a skirt, will they stare at my legs or listen to what I have to say?" "Should I wear a sweater?" "Could I go without a bra just this once? The elastic in my bra makes my back itch?" "Is my boss more interested in my bra size than in my work?" "Is the interviewer thinking about what his wife will say if he hires a pretty woman as his secretary and maybe the one with about as much charm as a staff sergeant would be a better bet?" or worse yet, "Maybe if I offer a raise, she'll sleep with me."
I have not begun to express just how tedious sexual harassment is. Here's another one: "You look just like Demi Moore or Marilyn Monroe." REALLY. Shall I tell my husband how lucky he is?
The film is effective. It touches a nerve. And it is HONEST.
I don't usually focus on feminist issues, but that video struck a nerve, made me think back to the nightmare moments of my youth like another student saying when he learned I had an A in a course: "Boy, professor so-and-so sure grades on the curve?"
Finito.
davekriss
(4,643 posts)Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)I've been wishing the same thing about the homophobes. Every once in a while, one of them finally gets PPRed/TSed. The rest of the time, they just poke us and torture us. My grandmother had a saying about wishing for the impossible; wish in one hand, shit in the other and see which one gets full the quickest. Sadly, that probably applies to our wishes in this case.
tblue37
(65,528 posts)Squinch
(51,083 posts)AZCat
(8,339 posts)It's a rare youtube video that I'll watch without at least a brief summary.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)It really describes the experience of young women in our society. And the US is not nearly as bad as some other countries.
I remember how my oldest daughter could not walk home from high school without hearing all kinds of comments about her appearance.
Truth is she dressed very conservatively and was extremely shy, an excellent student (Phi Beta Kappa, etc.) but a blond living in a minority neighborhood. It was really tough and it took her a long time to get over all the harassment she endured as a young girl.
She was just a kid. Men, leave women alone. Keep your thoughts to yourselves. Women don't want to be reminded of your sexual prowess as they walk down the street.
Especially leave young girls alone. They think you are old and decrepit at 19. Just leave them alone.
MadrasT
(7,237 posts)It made me uncomfortable and squirmy to see the role reversals... and I'm female.
Really highlights how fucked up it is to deal with what we have to deal with living in female bodies.
boston bean
(36,225 posts)I could relate to the guy.
MadrasT
(7,237 posts)I really appreciate the video but it was tough to watch.
boston bean
(36,225 posts)awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)Sad that this will fly over some heads. I have to ask, since I have been seeing it lately- What is a trigger warning?
boston bean
(36,225 posts)is to alert one who may have been victimized that it may trigger bad memories and put them in a bad place. It's a courtesy.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)MadrasT
(7,237 posts)to warn people that the content might include something that could cause a strong emotional response for some people (usually people who may have been victims of a similar experience).
Many times I see "trigger warning" posted with a bit of additional explanation to identify the type of trigger, such as "Trigger warning: sexual assault", or "Trigger warning: racism".
There is a good explanation here: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Trigger_warning
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)chervilant
(8,267 posts)Thanks for posting this. It's a powerful video.
boston bean
(36,225 posts)I hope others will watch and empathize.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)Feminists are striving to enlighten more sexists and misogynists in just the last few years. I feel like we're back in the 70s!
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)Every male who thinks it's perfectly OK to assault a woman needs to be forced to watch this. Thank you for posting.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,719 posts)That's pretty well established. I would say it's a cultural norm for all cultures.
MadrasT
(7,237 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,719 posts)-Misogyny is wrong.
-Sexual assault is wrong.
-Unwanted sexual entreaties is wrong.
Don't know what else I can say.
DamnYankeeInHouston
(1,365 posts)Whisp
(24,096 posts)Mira
(22,381 posts)The message is very clear and painful. The toughest was the police interaction and the wife.
Sadly so familiar.
boston bean
(36,225 posts)And then to see the wife walking down a dark road, with all those male voices, cat calling, threatening... Tying it all in at the end.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Marking place to watch later.
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)It is quite a bit more than that. Thank you for post one of the most deeply moving, even painful short videos I've ever seen.
"Self-knowledge is never good news."
boston bean
(36,225 posts)1monster
(11,012 posts)TransitJohn
(6,932 posts)You could get someone fired.
Chorophyll
(5,179 posts)Squinch
(51,083 posts)The look on the face of the, "I should be talking to your wife" woman hooked me.
Thank you for that.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)And shameful.
And well done.
DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)K&R
marble falls
(57,479 posts)males and females must be each equally wearing or about equal amounts of the clothing/costumes. I'm made a bit angry that it seems that females seem under clothed the whole time that males seem to be over dressed. It sometimes seems like Benny Hill produces US TV from beyond.
cinnabonbon
(860 posts)however, I think in this case it was used deliberately, to show which gender had the power in society. They were meant to be like the men who jog without a top on. When they do it, it isn't seen as something obscene or titillating. They're not worried about being raped. Why would they be?
However, the man who was wearing a lot more clothes got cat-called and blamed for his own assault.
marble falls
(57,479 posts)that seems to be growing even as its being exposed more daily is what made this Navy vet talk his daughter out of applying to the Academy. I really believe a lot of what causes this sense of privilege men feel over women comes from TV.
cinnabonbon
(860 posts)when it comes to our perception of the different genders. I think some people forget that we don't just get our values from our family and community anymore, we also get it from media, and we're only considered consumers then. I think a lot of the problems stem from the fact that what we need to see to grow as people isn't often entertaining, it is painful and uncomfortable... So it doesn't get shown. What is shown is a superficial, vapid and objectified image of the real thing, designed to be entertaining.
SunSeeker
(51,797 posts)The constant undressing of women treats the female body like a bowl of fruit--to be displayed and consumed.
marble falls
(57,479 posts)JNelson6563
(28,151 posts)Bravo! Or should I say "Brava!"?
Julie
westerebus
(2,976 posts)May I suggest a more explicit warning about the subject matter?
CFLDem
(2,083 posts)But very much a 'no duh' message.
PosterChild
(1,307 posts)... reposting on facebook!
SunSeeker
(51,797 posts)justhanginon
(3,290 posts)It's good, even educational, to see so graphically portrayed, the shoe, so to speak, when worn on the other foot. I've often thought that were I woman I would probably be a raging feminist after some of the stuff I've seen in my many years on this earth. Hopefully, we're never too old to learn and grow.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)MH1
(17,635 posts)I agree with a commenter upthread who noted that those who really need to watch it, probably won't.
For those who already get it, it's a bit like a sledgehammer on an already sore spot.
But at the same time, I think the reminder is good.
Thanks for posting.
me b zola
(19,053 posts)rrneck
(17,671 posts)A character has undergone a complete physical sex change, usually through magic or Applied Phlebotinum. Depending on the medium, genre, and storyline, this may be a one-time temporary change, a recurring change (causing the character to jump the gender line often), or even permanent.
First Law of Gender Bending
"Once a girl has been created, circumstances will conspire to keep her a girl."
Not only are male-to-female Gender Benders a lot more common than their female-to-male counterparts, they are also a lot more permanent. One might think that the same Applied Phlebotinum that can change a male into a female should just as easily be able to do the opposite, but that's rarely the case in practice most characters who try to reverse a male-to-female Gender Bender will learn that Failure Is the Only Option.
Women Are Wiser
In many works of fiction, the female member(s) of a group, be it a married couple, siblings, or True Companions, are often portrayed as inherently better grounded than the male members: more rational, more reasonable, more level-headed and sensible, and often morally superior.
Third Law of Gender Bending
Any gender bent character will either embrace or be subject to all of the stereotypes associated with their new gender.
Note: Contains various movie clips, some might not be safe for work.
It's a video designed to solicit a highly focused emotional response within a specified demographic. Either you "get it" or you "don't". If you do, you're on "our side", if not, you're "one of them". I "got it" within the first minute. I spent the other ten on this reply.
You're welcome.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)A most excellent reply, btw.
2naSalit
(86,920 posts)Thanks for posting.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Loaded Liberal Dem
(230 posts)But I'm not sure what to make of it: The opening moments reiterate the "women can't live without a man" BS, then the vid does a 180 as the man is sexually assaulted by women, and encounters the attitudes of real-life sex assault victims from the cops, and then his wife.
But the video seems to end with the wife, walking alone down a poorly-lit street, with misogynist voices trailing her. Was this supposed to "bring us back" into the real world? If so, I can assure you that I'm already aware of such, thus rendering the reminder unnecessary.
sheshe2
(84,057 posts)amuse bouche
(3,657 posts)piece.
countryjake
(8,554 posts)CTyankee
(63,926 posts)It's good to have the European feminist flavor here. It makes it all the more brutal, IMO...
good job, boston bean! Stay warm and dry up there...
Chiquitita
(752 posts)Loved it. My husband and sons watched too and thought it was powerful.
myrna minx
(22,772 posts)redqueen
(115,108 posts)Given the many issues it didn't touch on, I wonder how many more of these could be made.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)sadly those who'd probably learn the most from this will never see it...
burfman
(264 posts)Confirms my worst stereotypes about France.