It should be pretty basic, you'd think. How is it controversial?

Finding offense in something that wasn't originally posted as offensive.

Trashing this thread.

Would you agree that women are objectified much more than men? That too much emphasis is placed on a woman's appearance?

sanctimonious postings an a message board aren't going to solve the problem.

The "space boobs" thread certainly wasn't offensive to me personally, I just think it makes us look dumb, honestly.

Yes, there is objectification. Everywhere, every day, even here -- which is especially disappointing.

And yes, I find the T&A threads embarrassing because to me it does make DU look as if its populated by adolescent Freepers and folks who have mistaken a political forum for their personal Facebook page. The DU Lounge exists for a reason. I wish some folks would stop diluting the political discourse here by fertilizing GD with junk threads. It's hard enough to sustain political discussion here as it is. The forum moderators could help in that regard.

I have some strongly feminist women with whom I worked at Planned Parenthood and I have talked about DU with them on various occasions. I will not mention it to them again.

But I'm not just going away. I am looking for another venue right now, tho.

But I am losing hope.

me for thinking it was a progressive site. Then someone points out that Manny is the new hero of the "under the rock" conservative site, and I go look and find - within the slime - that this is true. That's who thinks DU is just great now.

I let my star expire, and I'm not recommending to anyone anymore.

If you find another venue, let us know.

Friends who visit my art challenges are such a bright spot here. I'd like to have that, too, wherever I go.

I am staying to fight misogyny here and will keep it up...

Who is "Manny"?

What is CC?

Sorry... I really AM out of the loop.

too much time on DU. It's a collection of racist losers and trolls. Sometimes people who have been banned here end up there.

A troll who I pissed off at another site has taken up residence there....this is a wife and mother, btw, but she spends her time reading my posts here and then posting them there and commenting. Pathetic, I know...every once and a while someone will read there and send me the postings. They seem to have a thing out for Cooking and Baking, too.

good lord, what could possibly be LESS political than that topic?

Their "DUmpster" forum has as many posts as the rest of the site combined

I wonder if I'm a star now

attempting reproduction. Be grateful it's there.

Their behavior toward some here is stalkish. They go to great extremes to track down names and whatever else info they can find on posters here. It's frightening how much info they can data mine.

People with issues who have WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY too much time on their hands -- that's CC in 25 words or less.

Along with Cooking & Baking, another target of their sick fascination is the Mental Health Support group.

If that person DIDN'T have a massive following in conservative quarters, that would be the only surprise there.

Same with the conservative underground.

were doing a tribute to "The Three Graces". I don't know all you know about art, but I have seen so many interpretations of this and mostly nude, I can't understand how anyone saw anything dirty in it.

Last edited Sat Feb 22, 2014, 09:58 AM - Edit history (1)

guess it is entirely possible. Fascinating thesis, there! Is there a quote on this? I'd love to see an aesthetic interpretation of the SI cover, compared with the famous masterpieces by Botticelli, Rubens, Raphael and Canova:

Rubens' Graces would today be viewed as obese


Botticelli's Graces are all visibly pregnant


Raphael's Graces are a bit boring (IMO)


Canova's Graces are decidedly gorgeous


I would SO love to put this question to Keith Christiansen, who is the Chairman of the European Painting Department (and former curator for that department) at the Metropolitan Museum. He is a fine art scholar (and an expert in Montagna) and I read his art analyses with great joy!

I wouldn't discount it. Their job is to do the photo layouts artistically. I'm sure they get their creative ideas a lot from fine art. I've seen many fashion shoot photos in the mags that obviously emulate fine art. Just look for it with your practiced eye and you will see it. I would love to be able to ask SI editors if this is so or just a happy accident.

500 years from now, no one will be holding up an SI swimsuit cover as examples of fine art.
Botticelli is incomparable, which is why I firmly believe Savonarola deserved his fate.

"venus pudica" pose (that's the art term), as in the placement of Venus' left hand in Botticelli's "Birth of Venus." The term is repulsive. I wish feminist art historians would start a movement to get rid of it. One replacement I read recently referred to it as "her hand covering her belles choses when referring to one of the many Renaissance reclining nudes, e.g. Titian's "Venus of Urbino." I really got a huge laugh, tho...the guy was trying to be "dainty" but just looked silly...altho technically I agree with the description...better than "pudica," ugh...

The cover of SI truly does not bother me. Three very pretty young girls. The target market for the magazine ... who even buys magazines anymore ....?

Seems like I read somewhere that artists would sometimes use male models and just paint on breasts and paint out the penis.

I'm too embarrassed. In addition, while the republican party has women troubles, if DU is any indicator, at least among the rank and file, that the Dems do too.

Not to mention that she was being ravished in the dark by what she thought was a monster.

The offense is in the underlying philosophy. The work itself is aesthetically beautiful.

They get up on their high horse about how there's no sex in heaven and this is blasphemy.

Then when you point out it's pre-Christiany they write it off as "pagan" and claim it's idolatry.

They want a new Dark Age.

I don't know if it is better or worse than sex with a pagan god. I'll have to think about it...

because they admitted it was posted to offend and stir up shit. Even if you had missed those posts talking about why they post such threads, you know well over 170 people have said they find them hostile. To continue to defend them after knowing that shows that a clear intend to offend, exclude, and essentially show the concerns of the majority of the members mean absolutely nothing.

just wow.

There's a thread in the Men's Group specifically for that. I've even posted in it myself!

Why is it not ok to post objectifying women rubbish in GD but it is ok anywhere else on DU? Are women supposed to be grateful or something that crap like that most people want out of the most popular main forum but not other places on DU? Why should women of DU even have to contend with a group on DU that dedicates itself mostly to trashing women by either treating them as evil or slabs of meat or both? Why should women have to steal themselves for that kind of crap before going into the Lounge for what's supposed to be a fun place for EVERYONE on DU? I'd like to be able to go into the Lounge for personal stories or music threads or funny stories or cute animal stuff without having to even think about having to see any threads crapping on women in there which hardly makes it a welcoming place for everyone.

Why does anyone think that it's acceptable ANYWHERE in DU? Where's the group that gets to treat people of color like evil beings, slabs or meat or both? Where's the group that allows people to treat LGBT people like evil beings, slabs of meat or both? Why is it that crapping on people or color or LGBT people not a regular accepted staple of the Lounge?

Just why the hell is it that anyone with two brain cells to rub together in order to form a thought know intuitively that crapping on people of color or LGBT people isn't acceptable anywhere on DU but when it comes to crapping on women hell, DU has a whole group dedicating itself to that and it's a regular staple in the Lounge that's supposed to be welcoming to everyone. Are the women of DU supposed to be GRATEFUL when people "stick up" for us non-penis wearing folk when they say that shit shouldn't be in GD, but hey, perfectly fine for other places on DU and be happy to join in the objectifying in those places.

Jesus Christ on a cracker. Just how is it that so many many people on DU are so bloody dim when the subject is women yet are clear as a bell when the subjugated group is anyone else.

Especially because it was posted at least in part to rile people up, as I think the poster even admitted.

But yeah, in general, it's probably best to avoid posting cheesecake photos on a political discussion site. As I've said before, it's a little like watching porn at work, i.e. not appropriate.

On all counts.

Well said, Torch.

Regretfully, I let the little red hearts seduce me into updating my star status, but next year I won't.

to discuss the burning issues of our time, like what totally hot celebs they'd like to date, or how men are actually the ones who are objectified by society.

Judging by past and current flame wars on DU. Each subgroup in DU tends to see it from it's own perspective, and judging by the activity in those forums and here in GD, they aren't happy with the way their issues are regarded, or disregarded, for that matter. Disrespect and lack of empathy is endemic on DU.

Funny, I don't see these groups anywhere on DU, and there's no way on earth that either the people of DU would accept them or that the Admins would allow one, yet we DO have a "Men's" group that is dedicated itself to trashing women, and the collective DU doesn't give a shit. The Admins hesitated for a very long time in allowing such a group for fear of what it would turn into, it DID turn into that yet there it remains.

No trashing of racial minorities or LGBT people would ever be acceptable in the Lounge, yet the Lounge is full of threads crapping on women regularly. Hell, people right here have been believing they are sticking up for women on DU by objecting to such discussions in GD but don't have any problem with it in the Men's group or in the Lounge when they would NEVER accept any similar filth about racial minorities or LGBT people anywhere on DU.

Certainly there is the occasional racial or homophobic post here and there on DU, but people are quick to alert on such posts, quick to hide them, MIRT is quick to ban newer people that post them, and there's a mad rush of chastising DUer's responding to them. But when it comes to women suddenly it's a war, the posts almost never get hidden, and gits like HopeHoops who was absolutely disgusting in his perpetual masturbatory foul treatment of women took forever to be finally banned and a legion of his pals cried foul and begged him to be allowed back. He even said some ugly creepy sexist shit to another DUer, refused to even apologize for it and still his legion of buddies cried the blues that his sick ass FINALLY got kicked to the curb.

The extensive trashing of women on DU is so incredibly more frequent and accepted than any other subjugated group here, and there is no way to try to deny it.

groups. All you have to do is go to the LGBT forum, or Jewish Forums and you will see plenty of postings complaining about anti-semitism and homophobia here.

Kwassa was right in that most people tend to view things here through the lens of their own group.

I really think your perception is way off on this. There have been major past wars on DU over the unhappiness many LGBT members feel about their treatment everywhere on DU, and African-Americans have felt that many of the white members are completely oblivious to their views and harboring view of their own that could be considered racist.

I think you see it from your vantage point, but there are other vantage points, too. I don't think that women suffer uniquely on DU.

Overall, very little gets hidden anymore. That is just the way it is.

and usually only read the front page. I was part of the wars in the LGBT forum. Sort of turned off of DU for quite a while. I have to say this though, TorchTheWitch your post is THE best critique I have ever read on DU. Bravo from a lurker.

This is a progressive political site, not a men's entertainment site.

Women/People go in The Lounge, too.

Isn't the Lounge a place to relax and be welcomed for ALL DUers ... ?

I really do not understand why people think this stuff is appropriate for The Lounge.

Honestly, this past year I have seen more offensive posts/pictures in The Lounge than TMG.

But I understand where you're coming from. I don't think it's optimal for T & A photos to be posted there, either, but at least it wouldn't seem like such a deliberate attack.

the attacks in The lounge or more subtle, more nuanced and more Passive Aggressive than GD.

Personalities .... they are attacking personally.
They are Jealous of me (the general me/you) because I (generally speaking) am more popular than they( the general they) are. That is their (whomever) defense.


People read GD and then go into the Lounge to subtly attack people that are posting in GD.

Making fun of, not just GD, but the people posting in GD.

was "outrage" about they them themselves "wearing bikinis", they themselves "lusting" or whatever. I am sorry- not all of you are all that stupid. Everyone who plays dumb like that should be awfully embarrassed.

I don't mind nude or semi nudes at all- in the lounge- but taunting feminists- all day every day? Fuck that. You all care more about your dumb ass cliques of friends than you do about DU. That much is obvious.

That has actually never been the problem. I'm sure if scientifically polled, 99.5% of DU would agree women continue to be objectified in our society.

I've even been guilty of thinking "Hubba Hubba" when I see pictures of Michele Obama instead of focusing in what a smart, accomplished and yet supportive woman she is.

Just fucking tired of all these gender issues threads continually for the past week.

"Yeah Yeah it's so effing boring, the women go on & on. They won't shut up about how oppressed they are. We keep telling them we're tired of hearing it, we've been telling them for decades, yet nothing changes, women keep yammering on."

we are tired of the very vocal few "men's rights" types who purposefully try to goad women on here with stupid sexist OP's. we are tired of the very vocal few women who seem to focus only on how they can find offense against the female gender in what ANYONE posts including other women.

THe both sides need to shut the fuck up for a few days on this narrow band of issues, but I seriously doubt that will happen. Because there is a third category of disruptors who come in to GD specifically to throw these firebombs just as things are quieting down so we are at each other's throats instead of what this site used to be about.

That is all.

The other most likely possible reason is that you don't see some of the threads by vocal women as goading because you agree with them. Which given that you used quotation marks around vocal women but not around MRA-trolls, is more likely to be accurate. You openly insult the group you disagree with but not the group you do agree with.

Defense of MRA is anti-progressive, support of women is a progressive trait.

This is democratic underground. If you wanna jerk off MRA talking points, free republic will be most happy to have you.

And no. there simply aren't any such trolling/goading threads posted by women.

"Blah, blah, blah. Ho hum. They just need to shut up. We all know about it."

And here you are saying it again.

Ridiculous. The sneering air of superiority coming from a few of the so-called feminists is just as annoying and troublesome as sophomoric and offensive posts by some males who obviously have huge attitude problems.

Or at least the topic was quieting down some, and it was going to go back to regular politics discussion. Also, its generally a silly idea to suggest everyone must think the same way on any particular topic. "collectively ashamed"