to many people believe that acknowledging their advantages over a person of a different race or sex means that they have to give them up, feel guilt and shame. Far from it.

The next time your boss asks a female coworker to get them coffee, offer to get it instead. The next time you see a comment about a news story that calls an African American a thug, but not the white person call them on it.

A few months back my local news site put up 2 stories in the same week. One was about a white dr who killed a pedestrian, while drunk driving. A Mexican did the same thing. Without any evidence, the comments were calling him an illegal immigrant, throw the book at him, send his family back to Mexico etc. The Dr on the other hand was called a great guy who made a mistake. His poor family.

All people ask is if you see it, acknowledge it. Don't make excuses for it or mock it.

I ask this. Some people claim there is no racism, because we elected a black president. Yet we still see and acknowledge the hate directed at the 1st family and know that it is not true. So why deny that sexism doesn't exist?

If you are aware of the fact that your white skin gives you privilege, you know that you can use your privileged position without fear of retribution to point out unconscious racism. You can point out that the black person was before you in the line at the super market, where the black person may face negative consequences if they say "Excuse me, I was here first." You can counter racist speech, such as the use of thug, and veiled racism, such as the use of welfare dog whistle speech. Your white skin gives your words added gravitas, and makes them more likely to be heard and taken into account. Just like when a guy says the exact same thing a woman was suggesting at a meeting, and he gets the credit, he can say, "It isn't my idea, but Jane's - didn't she make a valuable contribution suggesting this?"

However, if you hold tight to the idea that even though you are white, you have no privilege because you were born poor, or you flounce away from conversations about white privilege with a "If you don't say things the way I want them to be said, so you don't hurt my precious feelings, I won't do anything for minorities ever!" - then you're part of the problem, and you can leave us and go to freerepublic with your ideological mates.

If white skin gives white people's words added gravitas, then when does it end? If white people use that gravitas, to help the black person in line at the super market, or if men, and white men specifically, use their maleness to always remind everyone that the women in the office make valuable contributions, where does it stop? How does white/male privilege ever stop without white/male privilege always existing?

Never fear, Whiteman is here to save the day!

If white people use their white skin gravitas to help all those in need, how does white skin ever lose the inherent privilege it has in society? When white people say so?

And it's better to be quiet about it?
And wait for a fictitious perfect solution?
What is your point here- warning people it's bad to speak out?

Did I say not to speak out anywhere?

I'm asking if using white skin gravitas can ever lessen the gravitas that white skin has. Using the example of the person I responded to, when does the black person in line at the super market ever get listened to if Whiteman has to save the day?

suggest anything? I would say the place person gets listened to someplaces already, but not every place. Some are still going to perceive it as hostile- which is unfortunate. I would say it could take a generation or two in some places, progress IS being made as we speak. Some places will take longer than others. Change doesn't happen overnight.

What about the thought that liberals should speak out about inequality bothers you exactly- not understanding where you are going with this? But you seem be implying something- why not just say whatever it is you think outright instead of hinting??

Racism lives and grows in the dark. If white people call it out when we see it and expose it to daylight, people start to realize when they're giving preferential treatment, and learn to not do it or realize they'll be called out on it. Pretending it doesn't exist, or staying quiet about it, allows it to thrive.

People of color can't call it out as well because our society has created stereotypes that allow white people to dismiss people of color when people of color call out racism, or really get upset about anything at all.

I don't know how long it will take but it will not be over "when white people say so" and I don't know why you'd have that in your post. I assume you're trying to make some kind of point.

Racism lives and grows in the dark. If white people call it out when we see it and expose it to daylight, people start to realize when they're giving preferential treatment, and learn to not do it or realize they'll be called out on it. Pretending it doesn't exist, or staying quiet about it, allows it to thrive.

If white people say nothing and do nothing and continue as things are, racism will continue. However, that does not mean that white people are in a position to recognize when racism is no longer a part of our society.

what it means is, if you want to be part of the solution, you have to STOP being PART OF THE PROBLEM, and and cannot do that unless you realize that there IS a problem. You may not have chosen what you are born as, but you do have to be aware that there are those who not only enjoy that privilege, but who are willing to use you to maintain it.

They may trick you, lie to you, and even offer some fake warmth:

"see, aren't those people on DU talking about privilege a scream, Du wuz better when they just talked about stuff we cared about. If dose minorities tries being nice, dey would realize what good people we are, and that we gots dair best interest at heart."

Rest assured, they will do their best to make sure that at the very least, you do not rock the boat, and that if you do not tow the line, you at least never try to cut it.

June 19th 2024 at 3:06 PM.

First off, you are not helping them. You are standing with them.

"If you don't say things the way I want them to be said, so you don't hurt my precious feelings, I won't do anything for minorities ever!" - then you're part of the problem, and you can leave us and go to freerepublic with your ideological mates.

years ago and beyond. it was not a badge of honor of being picked on back then. it was a reality we knew, saw, duh... i mean fuggin DUH. literally. i am telling you as a kid, growing up in az, i KNEW. i am talking a LITTLE kid. i knew. i do not see a single reason i am gonna play dumb on this. i am just not....

it is beyond stupid. we know this shit. REALITY

i am really laughing here. cause you know what, this really is beyond silly. but.... i will try to stem my impatience on this one to even try to take it half way seriously. how do you take such a blazen falsehood with any kind of validity it has truth.

intellectually does not make a single bit of sense.

as i stand in an university museum, talking about earths history. i turn to my master degree friend and i ask her. 6000 yrs? really? do tell.

I'm in.

we already know this.

this one, too.

me to shut up, lmao? now. lets look at your post, in an OP i am saying i am not gonna shut up. what are you suggesting romulox? cause i gotta tell you. it feels like you perfectly set it up so you could make my point for me. with an !

oh

and your friends that agree with you. oh lorrrrrdy.... too delicious.

Goodness. Now we get to the point in which merely initiating a conversation implies that one is "in charge of it?"

Well, I suppose that irrelevant and petulant implications are the best and finest arguments the ineffectual and under-educated individuals have to offer...

are powerless and don't represent anyone else. Like, come on, which is it?

also deny the existence of white privilege.

It's distressing when mischaracterization is used in these discussions.

In particular, I do not deny the reality of racism in America.

who think objectification is not a real thing, and who are railing against the concept of white privilege. And a good number of them are also gun nuts, although several are prominently not gun nuts. There is overlap among many interests, but it shouldn't be surprising that a group that recognizes and is concerned about discrimination in one area also recognizes and is also concerned about discrimination in another area.

nt

#throwthenotebookaway

I'm starting a new movement. Try approaching threads on an OP-by-OP basis. I bet you'd find it refreshing. This kind of stuff serves no one.

but it's getting better as old racists die off....

regarding their opinions and posts at this point. Perhaps a list.

It could be helpful for you and other HoF members to make a list of what is to be expected of duers regarding their thoughts on these issues.

you are insisting i talk about? am i allowed to ignore you and talk about my OP?

You are in charge of your thread.

people who posted in the white privilege threads who have no link to HoF. I get the feeling "HoF member" doesn't really mean members of HoF anymore and has become the dog whistle insult for the protectors of privilege here.

This is about white privilege, and not HOF...

Lots of other people have spoken up about the issue of white privilege, but as soon as the 'wrong' women start commenting on it, in come some men to try to shut them up

just in case you think that you're coming off as an advocate of free speech and discourse

Du needs much more education on these issues, and HoF members seem to be the experts.

to do with whatever issue they have with the OP. I doubt that is going to happen. Even shaming the notetakers doesn't seem to work.

rather than hijacking threads on unrelated topics in GD. Just a suggestion.

If it was just that we be aware of how discussions of white privilege can be handled tactfully rather than aggressively, well, fair enough. Conversations about the concept of white privilege can devolve into "White people are just all racists" which aren't usually productive.

But it seems like they really just want an end to discussion of white privilege, which seems counter-productive. if they don't acknowledge and understand the problem how can they work to fix it?

Bryant

no. not fair enough. i will discuss this, how i feel it is best to express. i wont be having others tell me to tippy toe or watch my tone, stroke ego, be gentle, create a falsehood.

That's the price for participating in a discussion board - people will disagree with you, in both what you say and how you say it. It's happened to me often enough. Observation suggests it's happened to you as well.

Why is important not to be gentle or watch your tone? Or how does being gentle create a falsehood?

Bryant

will then call that out. the point. i have found. it does not matter how i say it, with humor, grace, gentle, abrasive, harsh or blunt. i get the same reception regardless. so, what i am saying, in my statement, i am best able to gauge how i express myself. i will not allow those demanding i speak their way, to express myself. cause it will not matter one little iota. that is the part of the equation i am challenging.

i did not say i felt it important to not be gentle. i did not say that it was important to not watch my tone.

i said, i will decide how i express myself, without others telling me how to do it.

how i am judged in voice, is different than how you are.

if you refuse to acknowledge that simple point, well... meh. that is how women as a whole are judge. hof as a group. me individually.

i wont pretend otherwise.

that is what i am challenging.

i do not think in this reply to you, i was rude, uncivil, disrespectful, or having a tone. i think there are some that would suggest exactly that and tell me to stop...

And I do agree that there are plenty on this issue who will start out saying "We just want to be careful in how we approach this issue" but who actually mean that people should shut up about white privilege. And you certainly have the right to express yourself in the way you want; as do I. As does everyone here at DU. But DU is a discussion of both principles and tactics. So people will take exception to both what you say and how you say it.

I've mentioned this before but my first encounter with the concept of white privilege was entirely negative, because the way it was expressed to me was that because I was white I hadn't earned anything I had. This is a conversation of about 15-17 years ago, when I was much younger and it's entirely possible I misread what the other person was trying to communicate. But it did turn me off of the concept for a long time, because it felt like acknowledging white privilege was admitting I had essentially cheated to get ahead in life (or that's how it seemed to me at the time).

I don't know if that was entirely the fault of my immature self or if it was being presented by an equally immature college student. Probably some mixture of the two.

Bryant

wtf?

lol

just, no.

sometimes blunt, matters.

Sometimes being blunt is important when you are confronted with that kind of mindset - but not everybody you discuss the issue of white privilege with is of that mindset - or hopefully not.

Bryant

having had conversations with me in the past, lol.

i just for some reason think of the hoff anytime i read hof, i got no idea why the connection comes up.

ok. really had no where to go with this. yes. there is a group that chose that for us as an insult. lol. pick my battles. and this... oh ya, this is where i was going with it, mentioning hoff



mesmerizing

Out of Hannity, Limbaugh or O'Reilly. I hear a whole lot of white elitism, and complaining about uppity minorities asking for justice.

Many beneficiaries of privilege are not actively racist. They don't realize that things which seem perfectly normal to them are denied to others, based simply on race.

Work against active racism, and work to make basic cultural and economic changes, and privilege will fade, IMO.

I personally think we need to be careful with the concept, which certainly exists, but which cannot be effectively (IMO) addressed directly.

long way to addressing the active racism.

By telling people "you have privilege, stop it? That trick never works. I think it needs to be addressed economically and culturally. I don't think it's a cause, I think it's an artifact of culture. But, it's a complicated issue, and I am always listening.

My god, this is not that hard.

... if it were easy, we would have solved the problem by now.

Deeply held cultural biases and privileges are VERY difficult to change, especially in the short term.

there is always the opportunity for some to see. and once seen... give it up, you are done, you know. and in know, things change.

i am saying.... when a person see that their very color allow them advantages a black does not have, is not allowed, then it allows us to be open to hear his voice, and understand. listen.

and THAT is where bigotry will loose its hold.

... making people AWARE of privilege is one thing. But you can't eliminate it directly, because it is a SYMPTOM.

rather than the top of it so we do not see. allowing the root to continue to sink down, getting strong.

i think, that understanding basic privilege we have, like any book or movie, story or news fed to us, will be told in a white person voice and almost never black.

as a white person, seeing all the world given to me in white, every book i read, about white people with the few black people added in as an aside, characters to the story, i cannot help but see the different worlds the two of us live.

i know what it is to be a woman and speak, only to have a man i am speaking ot look over my head for confirmation from my husband. the powerlessness he gives my voice.

these would be the subtle cores, to me, that allow the active racism.

Does it coincide historically or is it more modern (last 80-100 years)? Don't think I'm trying to be snarky. I am very interested in this subject and fully support the idea of white privilege because its frankly obvious... if one exists then inherently the other does as well. The only issue I have ever had is the 100% threshold.

I am almost full blooded Italian (some Irish mixed in on one side two generations ago). My family came to the US in the very early 1900's. Do you know what most Italians were labeled by the US back then? It wasn't white. Did you know that Italians suffered from the same Jim Crow laws in the south? Did you know Italians were lynched along side everyone else in the south? Did you know Light skinned Italians lied when they came to the US stating they belonged to a different race than the darker skin Italians (in order to save they're own skin)?

I am by no means trying to say that Italians suffered anything near as much as African Americans... that would be ridiculous. I am saying things are not as simple nor as clear cut as people would like to believe. There most certainly IS white privilege. It is the privilege of being treated fair a higher percentage of times than non-whites. You can not have a grouping of people(s) who are discriminated against without the opposite being true, of no fault of their own. Being quite about it makes it their fault. Ignoring it makes it their fault. Being white, does not.

There is no discussion that will logically explain how 100% of anyone everywhere falls into a single group. That is NOT me arguing against white privilege. This is my attempt to have a discussion on what might be a simple misunderstanding based on the numerous constraints of this form of communication.

Is abuse of power by anyone wielding it.

The wealthy, those who make laws, corporations - the people who have the real power in this country on one level.

But then there are everyday folks. We buy cell phones we throw away later, cheap plastic crap, makeup and fashions, and all sorts of things which drive slave labor. We use desperate people to enrich ourselves.

We want nice little diamond rings - and we destroy villages, environments, people's families to have them. Just have to have a shirt with that one label on it.

Do whites here in the US have it easier in some aspects than others? In general, yes. Yet many who were born white are also downtrodden, homeless, hungry, suffering, unemployed, etc.

Yet are lumped in and told they are still better off than other people.

And the people saying that themselves are better off than a lot of other people as well.

Yes, there was a time when being Italian or Irish did imply a lot of suffering or discrimination. I myself have seen how the whiter skinned Hispanics have risen, and the Asians, proving that the "melting pot" is still on full boil. However, there are two things to keep in mind.

One: by virtue of being able to look White, the lighter skinned folks have a way of disarming mechanisms meant to catch minorities. For example, I am Puerto Rican. My mother has skin that could make her look Nordic, my father has skin that makes him look like a lighter-skinned black (or "High Yellow" as the rappers would say.) I came out in the middle. Now, there are times when WASP people would know me, then meet my family, and all of a sudden, their reactions to me would change, as if they felt I had tricked them. I still remember my best friends talking about lazy Puerto Ricans, and I said "would you consider my Dad lazy?" Considering he spent the day being outworked by a man threes time his age, he blushed.

Two: let's also be honest, just because some non WASPS manage to get into positions of power does not mean that that majority cannot use their ethnicity against them, when it suits them. Have you ever seen an Italian Political candidate that did not get accused of mob connections? Even the Irish still have bs told about them about tempers and drinking. Heck, even the Jews still get plenty of crap, some of it slipped in under the cover of Anti-Zionist sentiment, but very recognizable for what it is.

The point is that, while I do agree that this is not simple, that does not take away the point of the OP, that privilege does exist, and that if we do not want to be part of the problem, we have to be aware, and resist it, even if it does make some of our friends angry.

... excellent post by the way.

I do not see anything that you wrote that I necessarily disagree with. I disagree with the 100% threshold. Maybe its a moot point. Maybe it really doesn't matter one way or the other as long as we all agree that their is a problem and work towards it's solution. I dunno really. It gets really aggravating explaining to some people how you agree with what their saying except for the "everyone" aspect... and they turn around and post like your a denier. It's almost like they are intentionally ignoring what your saying.

Anyway, thank you very much for the well thought out post, and for your time.

and maybe even for a generation or two after. However people from Europe and with at least fairly light skin stopped being "othered" eventually. Race is a societal construct, and what our society considers "white" to be changes from generation to generation based on against whom our society is currently choosing to discriminate. When I was a kid, Islamic people from the Middle East were considered white, but they don't seem to be considered white anymore.

the eventual "stopped being other" part. I will meet you 3/4 of the way and say it has greatly diminished.

Being a white American really meant, by and large, a white anglo-saxon protestant white for much of the early history, though there were some catholic enclaves, too. Southern Europeans need not apply. The WASP population reacted quite negatively to the large-scale immigration of people ethnically diferent from them.

Over time that difference vanished. When one is black, however, the color issue will always be there.

White privilege exists.

Let's have a conversation on how to fix that problem.