that what they say is wrong. It is almost a dead certainty that they grew up around people who said those things and thought in that way so these people believe what they are saying is normal.

I don't even want to repeat the hate words and "jokes" about lynching, drowning, incest, subhuman characteristics, etc. that get thrown around in locker rooms, bars, and other places where whites let down their inhibitions.

In the real world, the consequences of being a visible racial minority are far more serious and widespread. Have you ever heard of anyone ever being pulled over by a gun swinging cop or Border Patrol for DWJ?

1) My mom is Jewish. My father was a Christian but I don't fit the stereotype of what an anti-semite thinks a Jew looks like which is some weird mix of Woodie Allen, Jackie Mason, and Ben Stiller...
2) Because I don't fit the stereotypical definition of what a Jew looks like I get to hear all the anti-semitic "good stuff" like "Hitler should have finished the job" or "what's the difference between a Jew and a pizza? the pizza doesn't scream in the oven."
3) I don't subscribe to the comparative grievance argument. If you are attacked because you are black, Latino, Asian, gay, lesbian, transgendered, et cetera I will empathize with you and defend you.
4) Jews that wear the skull cap or are otherwise identified as Jews are targeted for violence in some places. Let's call it BWJ-Breathing While Jewish.
5) I subscribe to Malcolm X's admonition:" Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery."

I understand your post, but quite frankly didn't necessarily need the repetition of the 'jokes'. No offense…I enjoy your POV here, but I'm "just sayin''".

I can come up with at least a dozen incidents of anti-semitism and in only one of them was it linked, even tangentially, to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

The reason I cited the joke verbatim is because my interlocutor suggested anti-semitism didn't include a healthy dash of genocide ideation.

When there is a large Jewish community in a city, I don't see anything wrong with stating something like that.

I'm asking for my own education.

I separate the anti-semitic comments I hear into benign and malignant categories, like I separate other prejudicial sentiments...Others might disagree and say they are all malignant...

That being said the woman's remarks struck me as silly because while there are many Jews in Orlando it's not as if they are a large minority there... It's like how did she arrive at that conclusion.

in a pretty Catholic state, Santa Fe, NM, and our libraries are open on Sunday.

However, this city more or less rolled up the sidewalks yesterday afternoon, Good Friday, and won't unroll them again until Monday morning. Lots and lots of businesses that are normally open on Sundays will be closed tomorrow. However, our libraries, which closed yesterday at 1pm, are open today and will be open tomorrow.

They close on a weekday and now open Sunday - people got them to realize the weekends were days it is easier for most people to get to the library.

Ours are closed.

are open Easter Sunday. Only one, which normally has Sunday hours, is closed. But trust me, the rest of the city will essentially be shut down, other than hotels.

Thanksgiving and Christmas are the only two days where almost everything is closed, and in recent years more and more stores are opening on Thanksgiving Day.

Easter, while certainly an important Christian religious day, has never seemed to be much different from any other Sunday in the past, until I moved to Santa Fe. Which is why I was so amazed to see so many places closed here on Easter Sunday.

Thank you.

Have you any idea if they've always been closed Easter, or is this something new?

It seems Thanksgiving, Christmas, and Easter are the biggies...

so that everyone can see the kind of horrible and disgusting jokes that the poster has experienced. All anti-Semitic jokes are offensive but joking about the Holocaust is a whole new level of disgusting.

I separate casual prejudice from extreme prejudice.

The comments I heard on the bus were examples of casual prejudice... It's just ironic how how casually they were made...

The "Jew Town" remark is kind of funny and ironic because Los Angeles has areas that are designated historical areas like Koreatown, Little Tokyo, and Thaitown but Jew Town is not one of them.

and I'm not saying you "shouldn't" post them...

It's just if I see a bad bumpersticker which refers to President Obama, I for one don't post the text of the bumpersticker, only thatI'd seen it and how offended I was by it. I know you know what I"m talking about...and didn't mean the post in a malicious manner...

I think context and a scale of comparative wrongs are important. Not every act of persecution is equally destructive or life-theatening. In large parts of America if one is a Hassidic youth walking in a group down the street, one may receive suspicious or hostile glances or taunts. But, to do the same thing as a Black or Hispanic youth is often treated as criminal, and that can truly be life-threatening.

We should not pretend that every wrong is equal. That's why we should spend more of our time defending those who are more greatly wronged than ourselves. That's been my motto, and offer that in lieu of #3, above.

Otherwise, we are in agreement, and are brothers despite any differences.

it ends up in a contest of who is the most victimized, which isn't real empowering.

In college this Armenian-descent student was talking about how they had a genocide too, and no one pays attention and her Jewish friend said but we have a bigger history of being persecuted and they proceeded to argue who belonged to the worse off group and the winner was the worst off.

And they were both students at an American college in the 70s and in no danger.

Explains why the righties attempt to claim to be the victims. In our society, it demands some sort of respect and so you have people actually courting it.

It leads to common work against greater wrongs. Hence, what harms my neighbor harms me, and together we can stop those who oppress us. It's not a contest, it's a coalition.

What do they "look like" is what I asked.

In the mind of many anti-semites they do...


That's why some guy can say "Hitler should have killed all the Jews" as my buddy and I sat in his apartment.

Usually followed by a "yuk, yuk, I'm only kidding" or "I don't mean all Jews."

I've shared with BehindTheAegis and Bonobo my background. The black Unitarian - don't assume she didn't celebrate Passover at her Great Grandparents home. and my mom's dad looked Nordic German. His father was a Lutheran German who converted to marry the German Jewish girl. He took a lot of shit growing up in the 20's and 30's. I get it.

victim's religion in 2013, 60% were due to bias against Jewish people. In 2014 this included opening fire at a Jewish center, for example.
And this argument about 'visibility' is used against LGBT people as well, and it is in fact an argument which blames the victims for being seen being themselves. 'Gays and Jews are not visible minorities as long as they pretend to be straight Christians.'

The argument is a cousin to the argument that "gays are doing so well in this country they shouldn't complain." That ignores the "gay tax" that a gay has to be a better at his or job than his or straight counterpart is at his or hers just to get the same position.

I would further assert that when bias is carried out by agents of the state, such as racial profiling by police that leads to unjustified shootings, that is particularly malevolent.

The comparison game is odious stuff. There are in fact hundreds of bias motivated attacks against persons due to bias against Jews each year in this country.
Speaking of that which happens to one group does not negate that which happens to another. People on DU frequently discuss bias crimes against Muslims, of which there are far, far fewer than bias crimes against Jews. When we discuss those crimes, we are not negating the far larger number of bias crimes against Jews, because for those of us who are in groups subject to such crimes, speaking out against bias crimes against anyone is speaking out against bias crimes against everyone.
It is very interesting that bias crimes against religious persons are very frequently mistaken in their targets. Thus, many victims of anti-Muslim bias crimes are in fact Sikhs, the people shot at a Jewish center last year were not in fact Jewish, it is not uncommon for straight people to be mistaken for gay people and then beaten for it, a kid in Brooklyn got it a year or so back for putting an arm around his brother.

I agree, racism is an even larger problem. Not sure why discussion of anti-Semitic remarks is seen as denying that.
Bias crimes statistics reflect the attitudes found in the population. Racially based bias crimes occur at a higher rate than religiously motivated or sexual identity motivated bias crimes. About 3,600 hundred in 2013 of which 60% were against African Americans. So about 2,100 that year.
I don't think anyone asserted that all crimes are equal. I do think that all areas of bias crimes in the US include murders and rapes and also a punch in the nose. Not equal. But there is no group that only gets 'light bias crimes' and all are subject to the worst the majority can offer up.

I tire of the "invisable Jew" argument and the "Gay who passes" one as well---they're not even close to the point.

This in no way takes away from the biogtry experienced by visible POC, either. That's too often used as a wedge to split people when we all need to fight for justice and human rights.

racism against blacks and Hispanics? Competitive racism is a no win game.

It seems as though the right continues to operate from racism and the "Jews killed Jesus" mentality, and many on the left conflate Israel's policies with being Jewish and think it's OK to say things that they would never say about other groups of people.

I am trying to define its meaning and contextual place within the hierarchy of social wrongs.

of minimizing it and allowing you to talk about your preferred subject. Maybe you could start a thread about the hierarchy of social wrongs, I'm sure it would go well.

By making reference to greater wrongs, I don't detract from the social wrong of "casual" antisemitism brought up by the OP. It certainly does not justify it. But, there are far worse expressions of hatred and group prejudice in America - and, I believe that's a valid point.

Adding perspective should not be taken as an offense, in itself. It certainly wasn't meant that way.

Not 'casual' antisemitism but beatings, shootings and such. No one said 'this is the worst thing in America' that's your strawman. You are however reducing mass shootings to 'casual' bigotry in the face of several points made to you.

Or are you a straight white Christian type person nattering on about which minority group your majority group treats the worst and telling us that the rest have no standing to complain about being shot at or beaten with tire irons?

In-group enough for you?

Here, let me get out my calculator and decide exactly how much hypocrisy is permitted based upon relative oppression quotients.

You raise the question about whether my comment is an example of "whatabouterry" a form of the "fallacy of relative privation" in illogical argument.

"Relative deprivation" has two separate meanings that differ according to the situation and context of the use. The first form is a category of observed group grievance. An example of this is that individuals and groups tend to feel relatively deprived compared to another group they feel is more or less advantaged but otherwise comparable to themselves.

The second form, the “fallacy of relative privation” occurs during argumentation, most often as a logical fallacy intended to deflect a criticism. That is also known as “whataboutism.” An example of this is the official report in Pravda of the 1984 nuclear accident at Chernobyl that gave little details about the cause of the reactor meltdown but instead dealt at length with reactor accidents in the United States. It’s a form of deflection of fault or justification by comparison. This is the “whatabouterry” type of fallacy to which I take it you refer.

The situation here is not of the second type. Instead, I observed in the OP an example the principle of relative deprivation (or relative wrongs) felt by social groups. I compared the relative and absolute levels of actual harm experienced by American Jews with other groups who experience bigotry and mistreatment in this country. That is different from an attempt to justify such wrongs, which would be a form of arguing from the fallacy of relative privation, or “whataboutism.” That is a subtle distinction, but, as I think you acknowledged "in other contexts", it is an important difference.

but not you.

The point is, in a thread about anti-semitism, why immediately go to the default position of "but but but but"?

Maybe you should do a little self-reflection on that question.

Racism and prejudice are "built in" to every aspect of life in this country. They truly are the norm and because they are so ubiquitous many people do not see them. Like the air we breath, the water we drink, we take them for granted.

I feel that racism and prejudice are so automatic, like breathing, that in some situations, certainly not all, many people do not really consider that their actions and speech are racist. They feel that they are just speaking the truth.

That blacks are lazy, Jews are obsessed with money, Orientals study hard, white Europeans are superior, etc., all of these things are considered the truth.

the "Tiger mom" myth and many other suggestions that all Orientals study harder than non-Orientals.

To describe human beings.

generally by the same people who categorize ALL of anybody as having a particular behavior. I feel that in many cases they do not understand what they are saying and how it sounds.

but I can understand flattened noses as a result of bigoted public bloviation.

Most fall into the chowderhead category.

that bigots seem especially emboldened in the past few years - building to a crescendo lately.

The sentiments I cited in my OP were shockingly sad and shockingly stupid but the persons who made them don't deserve to get clocked... I don't disagree with you at all that expressing certain sentiments will get a person clocked and that he or she probably deserves it.

although when bigoted people become so oblivious to their surroundings that they speak openly, there's always the possibility that someone within earshot will take extreme exception to their language.

I mostly grew up in New England where there were/are enclaves of ethnicity in many if not most cities. It was common (though I never approved especially once I understood "racial" biases and their intent-when I was two or three y.o.) to hear most ethnic identities referred to in common speech by their epithets. There are ethnic representations from just about everywhere in the north eastern cities, forever since the beginning of the European invasion, and in many places kept mostly to themselves in their own neighborhoods. When I went to a classmate's home to play chances were 50/50 that their parents didn't speak English in their home which I was used to having grandparents who spoke multiple languages at home and with friends. Religions were varied - I knew about Islam long before I heard there ere mormons, for instance - but you heard also epithets regarding religion in common parlance as well... but this was in the 1950s and 1960s.

I still hear epithets among the many people in my community and elsewhere even though in this area the majority of the population is white. Why people use this choice of words in public is probably due to some sense that they are losing their majority control over the ethnic make-up of the US population. The sad thing is that these folks don't realize that they are perpetuating a myth that they tell themselves in order to make their ranks feel superior and to maintain domination over all "others". This myth-telling, to my thinking, is designed with the elements of fear and guilt as the negative drivers in the game so religion differentiation is key to buy-in from the general population Notice how many of our dispute and disagreement resolutions are based on the participants believing in whatever the resolution is otherwise it loses validity. I suspect that this ingrained through conditioning fear of "others" is the impetus for the casual use of these epithets is to publicly display this sense of superiority that they cling to even though they see it isn't producing the desired effect. These people can't seem to accept, they certainly recognize this, that they are losing their grip on total dominance and it scares the shit out of them. That fear has developed into it's own belief system and the folks who are overwhelmed by it act out in a passive sense to continually try to assert their claim, honesty becomes the enemy rather than the cleansing element to them.

So I think it's because they are scared shitless and think that they still have carte blanche to be offensive and boorish because they once had control of the system which allowed them to behave that way with impunity. Since they refuse to adapt while insisting everyone else adapt to their belief/value systems, the only way through this rat-hole is to be abusive rather than accepting.

I'm sure there's probably more, and finer, detailed points to make about it but that's what I can tell you from anecdotal observation on a Saturday morning while I'm in a chatty mood.

I am white with an obviously non-Jewish name and I find it disgusting and incomprehensible when otherwise normal people (i.e. not Nazis or extremists) spout crap about "the Jews", especially when they seem to think that I should share these views.

have our share of hateful, vile and ignorant people.

Last edited Sat Apr 4, 2015, 08:09 PM - Edit history (1)

working with and having friendships and relatives with people of many backgrounds. Things have changed, for the worse, and the US has definitely moved more right, way too right. And Europe is moving right in fear of immigrants and 'Eurabia'. The lid is coming off of what was unacceptable and largely nonexistent in my formative years. Never heard these disparaging, racist hate comments at college or among friends or parents and there were five of us in 4 different US states. It's very disturbing. The casualness and acceptance of this bigotry is seen in the media, including the internet and especially in the entertainment industry, and in comedy where it's grown.

IMO the elevation of hate is related to the rise of consolidated corporate dominated media especially RW hate media, and a backlash and resentment of diversity, multiculturalism, globalization and immigration of the 90s and 2000s as expressed by many. Add in wars and conflicts in the ME, demonization of muslims, growing economic and political instability, vast income inequality and dumbed down education in the US as factors. Never have I seen a striped shirt with a large yellow star on the front excused as a reference to the Old West and a Sheriff's badge rather than a vile imitation of clothing worn by Jewish prisoners in Nazi concentration camps, as the Spanish clothing retailer said when they were called out about it last year.

away and people were becoming more and more accepting/tolerant. I've been stunned by what has happened, and much of it IMO is "Hate for Profit," AKA Fox News and the like, and some religion, constantly stoking the embers of differences to burst them into flames. And, those now being proud, damn proud, of their ignorance. I feel we are truly descending into Idiocracy.

In my career I interacted with all sorts of people across the globe in high technology. Maybe I was in a bubble of sorts, not seeing what was occurring. Here is something I discovered today, I had no idea shortwave was now being used for these despicable activities by the RW. It is, really, a sickness IMO.

"American Extremists Use Technology to Broadcast Hate Worldwide"

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2001/fall/from-america-with-hate

dismissed by too many including liberals and Dems. IMO. I honestly think many are unaware of the vastness of this for 20+ years, like the overseas radio for example, news to me. Who is monitoring this? And others in their own world don't know or care about as if, 'Well, there's no meth or rape in my world so it isn't a concern for me-?!'. Just look at the spread of this and the permanent, irreparable damage that's being done to millions. (The SPLC is great, been a member for a while. *The 2001 SPLC article is a real eye opener and should have it's own OP in General Discussion).

WTF is the FCC doing? besides nothing, in this era of no regulation, anti-govt., big corporate $? Reagan stopped enforcing the Fairness Doctrine and the Sherman Anti-Trust Act in the 80s, Clinton deregulated the Telecom industry in the 90s. Roger Ailes of Fox had approached Nixon about a 'GOP TV' network in the '70s but was declined although they went on with Fox News Corp. and Murdock.

I never watch or listen to Hate Media except 2-3 radio shows once with Michael Weiner Savage out of San Fran of all places. He's pretty intelligent which is scary, but the ravings about welfare fatties, librul hippie bookstore clerks, Obama the Islamo-Marxist-Fascist almost did me in. And Savage was BANNED in the UK not that long ago, for his inciting hate. Why is this tolerated here? (Isn't it odd to read that James Carville & wife Mary? were wedding guests of Limbaugh, and Elton John is also a friend. Bizarre, but commonality is they're all very well off, move in the same circles sometimes).

Hate radio is listened to by people in cars, tradesmen, police; salespeople in offices; Fox TV is played in stores, gas stations, hotels, car repair shops and dealerships, on military bases; college sports teams have contracts for games coverage- it's enormous.

Bless Gore for at least trying to counter with Current TV, but I don't know why the left can't produce something in the way of affordable, accessible and independent news programming somehow. And online, cable and in print. Not everyone inhabits the internet or has the time and money for service as hard as that is to believe. Only through Thom Hartmann did I hear of DU a few years ago which makes me nuts, I'd like to have known about it long ago.

As to upbringing, as said I also thought the 60s and beyond were a time of much change, erasure of old hates and much unity between groups. This return to racism, bigotry, anti-Semitism, anti women and gays is just unbelievable. Our friends in HS, college, professors, colleagues and family in the 70s onward were gay, black, Italian, Jewish, Turkish, Bolivian, Indian, Iraqi, Brazilian, NY Puerto Rican-Irish, CA Japanese American, FL Cuban, it was just natural. I never even thought of this or 'categorized' it until recently.

But the introduction by the early 90s of this Hate Media and backlash against the diversity, multiculturalism, globalization and immigration of the 90s-2000s, plus 9-11, and the ME Wars has all been ginned up into a big world of hate fueled by the media, ignorance and bigotry. That white supremacist, conspiracy book, 'THE TURNER DIARIES', novel of hate (OK City Bomber) also took off in the 90s. Incredible. DESCENT TO IDIOCRACY is right-

effort often I think to being down the US and not by chance. It's like there is a force behind it driving the hostilities, perhaps they are just contagious. Maybe it's driven by many feeling the system does not serve them well, maybe the collective consciousness is descending (being driven) into hatred and Idiocracy.

That said, I often feel we're on the cusp of something, and that does disturb me. 2016 will IMO be a major deciding point, I'm concerned voters with limited information will make wrong decisions, the vast sums of money to fuel lies and distortions thanks to Citizens United. How, can this be a democracy? Citizens United mocks the concept of a democracy.

What always bothers me is we allow hatred to build in this country while defending free speech. We allow widespread outright political lies while stiffing truth. Canada took steps to force the dissolution of hatred, yet we continue on claiming all of the unbounded hatred is free speech.

I am dismayed TPTB don't do more to curve the hatred, because I think if this continues to ratchet up some dark times are ahead, especially with the constant building up by citizens of weapons and ammunition. That, is incredible. We are going backward in so many ways.

It's all a toxic brew. We need a national conversation, but I see little in that direction.

I have a brother-in-law with two adolescent boys who refers to orchestra students as "band fags."

Assholes come in many types, but they all fit the category.

If you call them out they're shocked that you're offended.

Ran into this problem with racists at work who used the n-word around me.

It may not be accurate, I have no idea who is going the library on Sundays in that town, but why is it bad? If someone said a lot of Hungarians went to the library on Sundays I wouldn't be offended in the slightest.

Some are emboldened to say whatever they want about Jews and it doesn't matter because our problems aren't "real" or "as real" as other minorities. Sure, we only make up 2% of the US population and 0.2% of the world population, but what we get is "whataboutery."

I have heard many of the same things (or similar, rather) since I "don't look like a Jew." I have even been complimented on the that "fact." I hear lots of racism too since I am white, yet they don't know I have black nieces. I do so delight showing those assholes pictures of my beautiful nieces after they make a racist comment. First, because I like showing their pictures to anyone, and second, because the "oh shit" look makes me giggle like a helium-huffing child. Then there was the woman who wanted me to move her son's roommate because he was "a black". She knew I wasn't (phone conversation) "a black" by my tone. I assured her I wasn't a black man, but I did sleep with them on occasion. She hung up on me! Rude!

My husband hears "fag" jokes time to time. He doesn't give off the "gay vibe". They have been said to me a few times, but that is pretty rare.

When they don't know, or don't care, they say what they mean, including dismissing anti-Semitism or minimizing it. I see the same thing with homophobia. FFS, Tom Cotton just did it recently with his comments about how we (gays) should be happy with the Indiana law because we aren't being hanged like they (other gays) in Iran!

after hearing the nth racist comment at a recent family function (not my family), I told the boob that he shouldn't say things like that because my mother was black.

Complete. Silence.

Then I got a loud but faux sincere "I am SO sorry about that. I didn't know."

Like that should make a difference?


Also, once upon a time I was watching a Gay Pride Parade in Vermont with my friend D (who also doesn't give off a "gay vibe&quot when a woman approached us and asked "Can you believe these people?" She thought we were a couple.

D replied "Madam, I AM one of these people."

I'm not really close to my family but my uncle found me over the net and we had a reunion after thirty five years...He shows me a photo of my cousin Mitchell with his wife who just happened to be black. I could see he had no idea what my response was going to be. Of course, I couldn't care less...

Some folks believe that because most Jews and gays can rise above the hate and do well the hate doesn't exist...i wonder if they ever wondered how much of their true selves they had to deny in the name of assimilation to get where they got....

about Jews....but say they support Israel. It shows their ignorance.

Of the "I don't care if I'm a bigot" variety. Makes me sick. I see it on DU all the time, unfortunately. I may stay out of most discussions, but I certainly read them. (Except for my very short hide list)

It's working for Trevor Noah

And I over hear this woman tell the clerk "We don't have any money because the trial lawyers it all." I countered that with "No the people who HIRE the trial lawyers are the ones who have all the money". Needless to say that shut her up pretty quickly.

can overhear them. That's their intent.
People Can hear them....is the point.

tell a jew from anyone else. When I arrived at March AFB when I was in the USAF, my first bunkmate was Jewish. He worked in supply and was always sitting and moving around in a rolling chair. We called him "Al Casters". He was from Brooklyn and his father had a furniture store. I was raised in a small Northwest town and raised without any predigest. I became good friends with him, although I did recognize that most of our squadron avoided him. He was a good guy.