There have been rich politicians who were very good on issues that affected the poor and middle class. And politicians who came from poor or middle class backgrounds who were horrible on such issues.

Most Americans - even some of hte quite wealthy and very poor - regard themselves as "middle class." They're not, but they see themselves as such.

America has this weird obsession with the Middle Ground fallacy - that when presented with two points, the "just right' answer lies between them. There's also a weird obsession with seeing yourself as "average' or "mainstream" - part of hte herd, basically. And then you tag on America's revulsion towards and hatred of the poor, and distrust of the wealthy?

So even if you're a broke single parent scraping change out of hte car ash tray, you think you're middle class, because you're not poor! poor people are lazy. Poor people are losers and criminals and drug addicts. they're FRINGE! You're mainstream. middle-of-the-road, middle class! yay! Got a six-figure income/ Well you're not rich because rich people are weasel-nosed backstabbers and callous businessmen who run bain Capitol. you're a decent person who just happens to have two yachts and a summer home; you're middle calss, becuase you're mainstream and wholesome and a good person! yay!

meanwhile the middle class' only growth is due to losses from those big earners losing jobs and income. It's downward, not upward, because our increasingly lasseiz-faire system is extractive; A very few who have "made it" and siphon wealth from the multitudes.

But if you point that out to someone who's scraping that change, they'll tell you you're engging in "CLASS WARFARE!" (damn right I am, and i'm recruiting!) and htat's bad becuase everyone is middle-class except for the "fringe!"

Increasingly, "middle class" has been used as a pacifier by politicians. It lets them tell (lie to) a broad wath of americans, say "I care about you!" when in fact, they don't. The actual middle class keeps shrinking, and its product - the increasing lower-income population - keeps growing, but being told they are "middle class."

business and she went to public schools.

What is your definition of middle class that would exclude her family?

And when she and Bill graduated from law school, they moved to Arkansas where she worked as a lawyer and he took a job as a law professor, until he finally managed to get elected Attorney General and then elected Governor, where he earned $32,000 a year.

Neither of them was born with a silver spoon in their mouth.

He became governor of a state after law school. Pretty standard middle class job path. After my phd I was elected governor in one of my Civilization 5 campaigns... pretty standard

at top schools, not by coming from wealth. I remember when he was running for President and he was mocked for being "white trash." It offended the Bush family and other Republicans greatly that someone so lower-class, and from such an unsavory family, had been elected President.

But Hillary, from a very conventional middle-class family, wasn't put off by Bill's roots. She obviously saw his potential when she married him.

http://nymag.com/news/features/46608/

Traditionally, the label white trash has been applied to selective members of the white underclass—a rapidly growing group. In 1990, according to the census bureau, 24.5 million Caucasians were below the poverty line, up 29 percent from 17.3 million in 1980 (these figures are somewhat misleading as they include white Hispanics). "In raw numbers," notes conservative thinker Charles Murray, "European-American whites are the ethnic group with the most people in poverty, most illegitimate children, most women on welfare, most unemployed men, and most arrests for serious crimes."

SNIP

Clinton's mom, Virginia Kelley, married four times, wagered furiously at the track, and worshiped Elvis—the white-trash icon. The president's stepfather Roger, known as Dude, was an abusive alcoholic. The president's ex-cokehead half-brother, another Roger and a dude in his own right, parlayed his demi-genetic serendipity into roles in such films as Pumpkinhead 2: Blood Wings and commercials for Comedy Central set in a mock-Oval Office with a faux-leopard-skin chair.

I'm white trash myself. Grandparents came from Oklahoma to California in the dust bowl. They lived in a double wide most of my memory, they died there. My dad got drafted into Vietnam, he lived through it and used the GI bill to go to school and bring me up in a lower class neighborhood, and then move to a middle class neighborhood when I started high school.

Now I'm in my 30's with a wife and we both have advanced degrees. We also are paying massive amounts in student loans for her degree and can't afford to buy a 2 bedroom house where we live, let alone start a family. That is middle class.

Going from university to governor of a state with a spouse who is a lawyer is not middle class. The Clintons may have not owned a home until after 2000, but they lived in a governor's mansion and then the white house. Good for Bill and good for her... but to claim that is a standard middle class road path is a fucking joke, and to me its offensive to the real middle class population of this country.

upper-middle class upbringing, and Bill's family struggled financially. They both managed to advance far beyond their roots -- but that doesn't mean they don't remember what it's like for ordinary families. They sure do more than the Bushes or most of the Republican candidates.

Is that rich?

I cant afford a house or a family, loaded down with student loans... cant afford to run for governor and then president... lol. Yes, he was rich IMO.

Not oil barron rich, not bill gates rich, but richer than I can ever imagine being. So, to answer your question, yes

Bill Clinton was just as intelligent and charismatic, actually more intelligent if you go by education, as John Edwards and could have become a plaintiff's lawyer and amass an eight figure net worth but he chose a life of public service in a poor state.

Other true things...

If this is your starter home:


You are rich. No matter if your taxable income is $35,000 or $3.50

They lived in a quite affluent suburb and had a summer "cottage" overlooking a lake in the Poconos.

Also he went to college during the worst part of the depression, when kids from formerly middle class families were having to quit high school to help their parents support the family.

I am not saying he was a 1%, but "manager" of a small business gives a far from an accurate impression.

Edited to add the following links

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6497046

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6497140

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6497204

The house they then moved into was built in 1926. Today, it's a 2500 square foot house on a .20 of an acre lot -- roomy but not a mansion. Zillow doesn't say how many bedrooms it has, but probably not many, since it only has 1.5 baths.

Her father built a business that sold draperies. He started small, grew his business, and ended up doing well. Back in those days small business owners could live a comfortably middle-class life, and that's what they did, sending their kids to public schools.

Her grandfather came from a long line of coal miners. I don't know how Hugh Rodham was able to go to college. He was on the football team so he probably had a sports scholarship.

But after that comfortable middle-to-upper-middle -class upbringing, did Hillary marry someone from the country club set at Wellesley? No, she married a very smart young man from the wrong side of the tracks, who would later be mocked as coming from "white trash." If she was the kind of person you think she is, she never would have picked someone like Bill Clinton to spend her life with. She would have ended up with someone a lot more like George Bush.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_E._Rodham

And where the family lived in 1926 has nothing to do with where or how Hillary grew up.

Moreover, as I posted on the other thread myself, even a football scholarship, IF he even had one, does not mean he needed one. Moreover that speculation still does not address the point of how many had to quit school as soon as they were legally of age so to do, because they HAD to help their parents support the family, keep the home, etc. during the height of the Depression.

My point was "manager of a small business" did not give an accurate impression of how Hillary grew up. What's yours?

Here's language from one of the post of mine on the other thread that I linked to in my post to you on this thread:

If you want to see the language from his wiki I copied and pasted below, I recommend haste. It may not be there very long after I post this.

Rodham attended Pennsylvania State University and was a third-string tight end for the Penn State Nittany Lions football team. He joined the Delta Upsilon Fraternity. He graduated with a Bachelor of Science degree in physical education from the College of Education in 1935, at the height of the Great Depression.



Right off the bat, the luxury of being in college at the height of the Depression does not scream "poor," even if he had free tuition (and nothing indicates he did). My father in law HAD to quit high school to help his Dad support the family.



After the war, he began what was to prove to be a very successful career in the textile supply industry, starting with Rodrik Fabrics, a drapery fabric business located in Chicago's famous Merchandise Mart building. His company made drapes and window shades; his customers included offices, hotels, airlines, and theaters. He later opened a fabric print plant building on the North Side. Rodham tried politics once, running for Chicago alderman as an independent in 1947; he lost badly to the Richard J. Daley political machine with which he was hoping to ingratiate himself.



The Rodhams had three children: Hillary (born 1947), Hugh (born 1950), and Tony (born 1954). In 1950, they moved to the more affluent Chicago suburb of Park Ridge, Illinois. The family still maintained ties to Scranton; all three children were christened there, and they spent summers at a cottage overlooking Lake Winola, located in Overfield Township in the nearby Pennsylvania Pocono Mountains, that he and his father had built themselves in 1921.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_E._Rodham

I assume the Rodhams owned the land in the Poconos with a lake view on which they built said cottage. (Don't but Baby in a corner?)


Seems a long way from being a manager of someone else's small business, as her wiki (as of this morning) states.

And only because I want to preserve this language in his wiki exactly as I see it this morning, I am going to paste one more paragraph for archive purposes only.

Hillary was 3, and where she grew up. Not a mansion. A 2500 square foot home (as of today) with 1.5 baths on a small lot in Park Ridge.

You pointed out that Rodham and his father built a cottage themselves. Yes, in those days many middle class families could afford lake cottages they built themselves up in the boonies. These cottages were often unheated, only used in the summer, and more like shacks than houses. My uncle had one, and he was a milk man.

Being in college on a football scholarship-- like all Penn State football players -- doesn't scream "wealth and privilege." Plenty of kids from non-wealthy families have managed to go to college only because of athletic scholarships that pay for full tuition, room, and board.

As far as Rodham's career is concerned, his business didn't instantly spring out of nothing or get handed to him by his father, the coal miner. Rodham began working for someone else, switched to working for himself, started small, and gradually built the business. You act as if he had this business handed to him when he left college. He didn't. As Hillary was growing up he succeeded in building a successful career. But he didn't start out at the top or anywhere near it; and Hillary had a comfortably middle class upbringing, attending public schools, not some fancy boarding school.

(SW Ohio)

Most folks around here who can afford houses live in 900-1800 sq ft homes.

If she was the kind of person you think she is, she never would have picked someone like Bill Clinton to spend her life with.

Again, ad hom and false. YOU keep asserting that I hate Hillary and I keep replying to the contrary. Now, you pretend not only to know I hate Hillary but why. Too bad you can't evern admit that you have no fucking clue what my thoughts and emotions are or that anyone could possibly object to Hillary for political reasons. That's the only interest I have in Hillary. I bear her zero personal ill will. I hope she has a long and wonderful life outside politics, starting in 2016.

She would have ended up with someone a lot more like George Bush.

Again, sheer speculation. You know my thoughts and emotions and also know what happens in alternative universes. However, I'll meet that nonsense with what really happened. She ended up with a smart, ambitious man who was probably already politically connected by the time he was in law school and who wanted to be President and who became a hundred million dollar man within 8 years of leaving the Oval Office And your point is?

Let's bear in mind, I did not fly to this thread to condemn Hillary for growing up very comfortably. YOU were the one who chose to make a little matchstick girl post about her that I found misleading. So, I posted a fuller, and more accurate picture of how she grew up. And why does this even become an issue? Kerry was a lot richer when he ran and no one mocked him. It comes up because she minimizes how comfortably she grew up and claimed to have been broke when she left the Presidency.

I have no beef with people who grew up comfortably or wealthy for that reason alone. But I do have a beef with bullshit claims she makes that you and DUers can't repeat fast enough or often enough.

despite his coming from what some have called a "white trash" background with some unfortunate relatives. She could have made a much safer choice.

There are plenty of ambitious young men in top law schools and she could have married old money if that's what she was interested in. Instead she married someone who wanted to take her back to Arkansas so he could work for $32K a year as a small state Governor. You act as if she was betting on a sure thing. Nothing could be further from the truth.They were both exceptionally lucky and I'm sure they know it.

You posted something that conveyed a misleading impression. I corrected it.

I see no point in addressing your pretending to know why Hillary and Bill married.

Interesting, though, that your responses went from the actual subject of her upbringing to ad hom fairy tales about me hating Hillary and fairy tales about what would happen in an alternate universes and what you imagine happened.

About on a par with your responses whenever I don't with agree about Hillary within two or three posts.

It's funny how you're starting to see them everywhere -- even though they don't exist.

I wonder why.

After all, "ouch" was not what I posted.

posts full of bs claims about what was in Hillary's mind when she met Bill and on and on. Mixed in with ad homs about me. At some point, barfing is the only rational reaction to that crap that seems to be endless from you and a few other DUers.

As I posted to treestar:

Once again, pwn's post was misleading. I posted the correct info with links. Apparently, that was intolerable to both of you. Too fucking bad.

Obviously, you can reply to this if you want to keep making up stuff in some pathetic and misguided attempt to make me look bad for posting info from Hugh Rodham's wiki. But, please do not think me rude if I don't reply.

I hope that clears it up for you.

Because that was your fairy tale.

The anti-Hillary people will be anti-Hillary even if she had grown up in a mobile home with a parent as a coal miner in Appalachia. She gets an advance on book sales and that equals bad. So does Stephen King. She gets money for speaking engagements and that is bad. So do celebrities. The bottom line is that no matter what Hillary does in this country, she will be hated for doing it. She is a woman loved around the world, she is a woman who has money and power, she is a woman with a brain. She is hated for it. Let the anti-Hillary folks set out this vote if they choose. Let the so called progressives whine and cry because their candidate doesn't want to run. Let them mock, hate, and deride who they want to. I stopped defending Hillary because in the end, and after 20 years of the same horseshit over and over, she doesn't need me to.

there's no way to squirm your way out of that one.

There's middle class when your father is a manager of someone else's small business, as pwnmom posted, which was misleading.

Then, there's middle class when you father owns a business that wholesales textiles like drapes to hotels and airlines and other large customers and you grew up in a very affluent surburb and spent summers in a lakeview "cottage." (Her father's wiki is a bit ambiguous on the point whether he later opened a second business or not, so I did not make that claim.)

there's no way to squirm your way out of that one.

LOL, If I hadn't read more of your posts, that might have hurt my feelings. As it is, I know it's just your, um, style.

Everything I posted about Hillary's background was copy and paste with a link to the source or backed up by a link. Your posts on the other hand rarely have back for your statements and your statements are not always correct.


So, what do you have to back up your ad hom implication that I was even trying to to squirm out of anything? That I tried to mislead anyone about her affluence as a child? If your love of truth is motivating your ad hom, it's so odd that you didn't not how pwnmom was trying to squirm out of an accurate picture of Mr. Rodhams' finances.

So, I'm guessing that you share the tendency of pwnmom and other Hillary supporters to go ad hom and mislead when the facts don't serve your purposes. Sorry I am not supporting Hillary as you and she and they are. Sorry you seem unable to tolerate a different political view than your own even if its' only from one Dem to another. You might try to do a bit better with that.

with one of them being too high for you.

We didn't have a cottage but a grandmother who retired near the beach. I suppose that means I can't sympathize with the middle class. Never realized I was part of the 1%.

Everyone knows that. I imagine you do, too.

Saying there's middle class and then there's middle class is a very common form of expression indicating not all middle class families are equally wealthy. I suspect you knew that too. It does not say there are two kinds and one is too high for merrily. You knew that, too.

Also I never said anything about Hugh Rodham's level of middle being too high for me. Never said Hillary was 1%. To the contrary, IIRC, one of the posts of mine to which I linked on this thread expressly said she was not 1%.

You have two other misleading straw men in that post, but I'm over even reading any more crap.

Once again, pwn's post was misleading. I posted the correct info with links. Apparently, that was intolerable to both of you. Too fucking bad.

Obviously, you can reply to this if you want to keep making up stuff in some pathetic and misguided attempt to make me look bad for posting info from Hugh Rodham's wiki. But, please do not think me rude if I don't reply.

Kindly allow me to refresh your recollection as to what the post of mine to which you are pretending to reply actually did say:

I'm over even reading any more crap.

Once again, pwn's post was misleading. I posted the correct info with links. Apparently, that was intolerable to both of you. Too fucking bad.

Obviously, you can reply to this if you want to keep making up stuff in some pathetic and misguided attempt to make me look bad for posting info from Hugh Rodham's wiki. But, please do not think me rude if I don't reply.

because no one wants to mention the poor anymore.

Ever see on TV that touching video of RFK asking a poor American child (white child, in the video, if it matters to anyone) whether he'd had anything to eat that day? And the boy says no, looking both sad and ashamed? The one that might have brought a tear or two to some Democratic, Republican and Indie eyes?

May as well burn it. Making poverty visible, like making war visible, was oh, so pre-DLC.

Meanwhile, the poor are still suffering, the middle class is vanishing by the month and the plutocrats get fatter by the month.

Too bad if you are not in investor class and/or the large campaign donor class. You can have rhetoric and you can hope for some crumbs, but, for pity sake,d don't "demonize" high income groups (including politicians) in a combatively populist manner if you don't get any. It might make them less willing to donate to campaigns.

Well, someone has to donate to political campaigns, and, thanks to the plutocrats you no longer can afford to. But, not to worry, they no longer need you to. Hard and soft money flows like water. Just not toward you.

I got paid an advance on my book while still writing it. Got the rest on publication, and more on sales.

I'm no big-time writer, certainly not rich off writing a book. But this premise of yours is wrong.

So does frequency.



The OP's point is that the Clintons are removed from the middle class. I don't necessarily know that money alone disqualifies anyone. RFK and Ted seemed to have a great heart for the poor. But, Hillary did not lift a finger for WalMart employees, beyond women's issues and environment, even when they struck. Hiring women and operating green is not nothing, but, as I am sure you know, some employees of WalMart were working full time and getting Medicaid and food stamps, maybe even a welfare check to supplement their paycheck.

Once you start making so much money, for so much time, your perspective of money gets dramatically warped. $1000 to a rich person is like $10 or $100 to a common person. You thus won't be able to empathize with everyone else. If you born rich, you won't be able to empathize at all.

poor, but many don't.

At Ted Kennedy's funeral service, his son told a story about his siblings and him messing up a bed in their hotel room after it had been made. It might have been on the day they were supposed to check out. Ted told them making beds was backbreaking work. I don't remember if he caused the kids to make amends in any way, but at least he put the correct message in their heads and hearts.

Such idols are a thing here, let me add that I neither idolize nor hate Ted Kennedy. Like all them, he was a mixed bag. however he was solicitous about others. His son pointed that out again at the recent opening of his Institute. He said, had his father been alive, he would have been working the line to get in, asking if people had been taken care of while they were waiting. (I don't think Ted Kennedy waited on many lines, either.)

There won't be enough of a middle class left to pander to for votes

And how do we expect a President to come from any other class but the super-talented?

I've never been poor - I grew up very frugally but never, say, knew what it was like to wonder where my next meal was coming from - however, I very much sympathize with the poor

A very tiny middle class is desirable amongst many of those with power today (along with a huge and struggling working class), and those with power and money basically own our politicians.

When many politicians speak about the "middle class", if their definition of the middle class is 5-10% of the population (in the professional classes and a tiny fraction of entrepreneurs who are doing relatively well) then they are not campaigning to do things that will help most of us.

This is why we need to elect Democrats that OPENLY talk about the working class and the poor AND talk about specific policies that will clearly illustrate that they are serious about implementing new legislation and reforms that actually help the majority of Americans.

I'm sick of the "middle class" meme, and we on the left must get the focus put on the working class and poor.

Every recent candidate always promises to fight for the middle class, make us energy independent, etc. None of it ever happens.

Prepare to hear about how Hillary is "just like us" and how she had to struggle. Even Mitt Romney attempted to become poor for a day.

I grew up poor, I was on the free lunch program for most of the elementary school "career" and I didn't know that cheese came pre-sliced and wrapped in cellophane (Gov't. cheese, anyone?). I remember being very, very young and watching my dad's work truck being taken away by a tow truck (I'd witnessed my first repossession--I was maybe 4 or 5). By the time I got to high school, it seems we struggled upward to become middle class but there were always struggles financially because my parents weren't good with money.

I know make almost 6 figures, so I too am middle class but when I can, I always look for the deal to save money. I vividly remember what it was like to grow up the way I did and I'm pretty sure if I got an $8 million dollar advance, I'd still remember what it was like to be that kid eating from black and white boxed food or bagged cereal or wearing thrift store clothing.

Did Hillary Clinton grow up in the same circumstances I did? Nope but I'm quite certain she remembers what it was like growing up in the circumstances she did and just because she didn't grow up as poor as I did doesn't mean she can't understand or even empathize with it.

Despite our culture's open deification of the wealthy, I believe the elite are still aware at some level of the fragility of the system they've built, and of how tenuous their privilege really is.

No politician wants to admit they're clueless about what the poor have to go through. (And let's face it, the 'middle class' barely exists any more, we're mostly the working poor, the unemployed, and the poverty stricken.) They need votes from those folks, even if they're going to turn around and continue policies that work against those very same voters.

As to Clinton's recent moves in particular? Chai? A 'hip' drink. At a guess I'd say the market for 'chai' is maybe 1% of the market for coffee or tea, if that. If she wanted to be an 'everyday person' she should have asked for coffee, either black or with maybe some flavoured creamer in it.

Wealth is not the enemy, unfettered capitalism is.

Unless someone has a strong moral character, they are likely to fall into the trap of greed and selfishness due to the pursuit of money. Money is the great corruptor.

The Romneys had to sell stock to get by.

What specifically leads you to believe that empathy is denied by income level?

Last edited Wed Apr 15, 2015, 09:47 AM - Edit history (1)

It's about empathy and compassion.

Your entire post is a steaming pile of divisive, dishonest straw men as you portray people in bogus stereotypes that are cartoonish at best.

So the DU'ers agreeing with your ridiculous premise- that some rich people don't actually empathize with the middle class- are going to have to reject Elizabeth Warren too.

Cause according to you, even if you come from the middle class, once you have X amount of money your memory, capacity to empathize and your compassion vanish.

I have empathy for Latinos, African Americans, glbtq folks, and anybody who feels vulnerable. I don't have to be a member of their group to feel their pain or share their aspirations. I can listen to them.

I have been dirt poor (but with back up in case of emergency, thankfully), I have been what could be called rich, but mostly I have been upper middle class with a penchant for saving money (i.e. being cheap).

way taking consultancy fees from big corporations. Grayson, who is even richer you see as sincere, but Hillary Clinton gets a different standard. I don't get that.
When I see double standards employed, I start thinking about discrimination and hypocrisy and that sort of thing.

No matter what the person's social standing, if they really listen to others and feel empathy for their particular situation, then even if they are not in or ever have been in the same situation themselves, they can connect and understand.

You've gone to a lot of effort here to provide evidence of your belief that because Clinton has money, she is unable to relate to those with less. That's a very narrow view.

2013 median wage was $28k: http://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html

If someone gets that for 40 years, that's $1.12 million. There are now about 30 people who have posted just on this thread. So we may well have got more than her book advances, just for the people posting to this thread.

This doesn't detract from your main point, but the order of magnitude of her comparative wealth shouldn't be exaggerated.