The risk threshold for civilians is much lower, apparently.

If you want to criticize the policy of conducting attacks like this, fine. But I don't see how the weapon used is in any way relevant in this case.

As for the second part of your argument... I don;t know what to make of that. It's certainly cheaper than a cruise missile, but other than that, it's also more accurate (generally), and flexible.

as we'll but I don't see a bunch of supposed Democrats arguing to use them everyday.

I'd like to hear that. 'Cause ya know what? It ain't really that big a deal technologically.

And there IS a difference between nuclear weapons and chemical weapons and a drone.

The drone is delivering the same kinds of weapons other aircraft are carrying. It just doesn't have a pilot.

Also, I am not weighing in here on the wisdom of these attacks or the rules of engagement. I'm commenting on the irrational response to a TECHNOLOGY, when the issue should be with the POLICY.

than sending a pilot out to kill them?

You don't see any disconnect in killing people on a video screen as to actually doing it?

The weapons used are 100% relevant when you are training people to be fully disconnected from the actuality of what they are doing. Not for the victims, but for the perpetrator.

Shit, why use a jet? Maybe a WWI biplane would be more fair. Up close and personal.

We have so disconnected ourselves from what we are actually doing, that killing people is no big deal. You prove my point better than anyone ever could. Your casual nonchalance shows just how far down the rabbit hole we have gone.

When actually taking a persons life becomes no more difficult than passing a stage in the latest Call Of Duty, there is a problem.

Used to be WAR was a last resort. Now we use it to secure money and fossil fuels and to remove dictators when they have outlived their usefulness to us. We kill actual innocent women and children with no more difficulty than breaching a door in a Tom Clancy game.

The decision was made to strike the target. The most efficient means with the least amount of risk to our personnel was used.

By the way, when in human history was war ever the last resort?

The people who make the the decision to attack or not attack are generally not the trigger pullers. And a pilot who launches a missile or drops a bomb from 10,000 ft never sees his target.

of which the USA is one of the few in the World that didn't sign.

All of those countries that have banned these weapons disagree with you.
I would like to see Drones added to that list.
Drones are a Terror Weapon.

Maybe you think those are too, but that's another conversation.

a manned aircraft would pose the same risk, and drop from higher, so could be a greater risk, possibly.

I would feel different if we completely left them alone,
brought every American home,
destroyed the Drone Program,
and began paying reparations for what we did to Iraq and Libya.

are even *more* indiscriminate by a wide degree, so aside from the historic romanticism we attach to conventional warfare I've never fully understood what people have against attack drones -- It's not like we can send in SOCOM for every single thing...

You can't understand that some of us object to Blowing to Pieces innocent women, children, and non-combatants?

You can't understand why some of us object that these killings take place inside sovereign countries with whom we are not "at war",
without oversight or review?


What CAN you "understand"?

by focusing the discussion only on the DRONE part, you're essentially saying you're fine with using conventional aircraft, which would strike me as odd, since they leave a LOT more collateral damage in their wake...(which is what the Saudis have been doing in Yemen the past month for those who haven't been paying attention)

Please stop making stuff up and posting it at DU.
You haven't the slightest clue what I do and do not support.

Please enlighten us and kindly explain your full position on the topic...

we will know all about them.

This was a tragic accident. You can, of course, criticize the policy, but the weapon used here was irrelevant.

My heart goes out to the hostages killed, and may their captors rot in whatever hell they believe in.

The fact that they are more sophisticated now, and can kill more people makes no difference.
Silent Death from the Sky at ANY time at ANY place IS terrifying.

They were aimed indiscriminately at population centers. Those launching them didn't know where they would land.... they just hoped it caused maximum damage and death.

Whatever you think of them, U.S. drone are NOT being used to deliberately cause maximum civilian damage and deaths.

Do you have the ability to step into someone else's shoes?
If you don't...don't worry. Doctors say many don't have this ability.

What would YOU do if a foreign country Droned bombed YOUR house, killing your wife & children & neighbors,
and then posted an article saying "Whoops". We had intelligence there was a terrorist in your neighborhood.

I know what I would do.

She certainly knew what terror bombing was, and so do I.

And those planes were piloted.

Your issue is with the POLICY. The technology in this case is completely irrelevant. A piloted airplane and a drone deliver the same kind of weapons, using the same kind of sensors. A piloted aircraft is not going to get close enough for the pilot's physical presence to make a difference.

Do you have the ability to step out of this issue and identify what the source of your objection is?

We can discuss the wisdom of the current policy on authorizing strikes, and what the level of confidence is. And we can do that WITHOUT some irrelevant sidetrack onto the technology used to prosecute those attacks.

STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT ON THE DEATHS OF WARREN WEINSTEIN AND GIOVANNI LO PORTO

James S. Brady Press Briefing Room

10:05 A.M. EDT

THE PRESIDENT: This morning, I want to express our grief and condolences to the families of two hostages. One American, Dr. Warren Weinstein, and an Italian, Giovanni Lo Porto, who were tragically killed in a U.S. counterterrorism operation.

Warren and Giovanni were aid workers in Pakistan devoted to improving the lives of the Pakistani people. After Warren was abducted by al Qaeda in 2011, I directed my national security team to do everything possible to find him and to bring him home safely to his family. And dedicated professionals across our government worked tirelessly to do so. We also worked closely with our Italian allies on behalf of Giovanni, who was kidnapped in 2012.

Since 9/11, our counterterrorism efforts have prevented terrorist attacks and saved innocent lives both here in America, and around the world. And that determination to protect innocent life only makes the loss of these two men especially painful for all of us. Based on information and intelligence we have obtained, we believe that a U.S. counterterrorism operation targeting an al Qaeda compound in the Afghanistan-Pakistan border region accidentally killed Warren and Giovanni this past January.

Yesterday, I spoke with Warren’s wife Elaine and Prime Minister Renzi of Italy. As a husband and as a father, I cannot begin to imagine the anguish that the Weinstein and Lo Porto families are enduring today. I realize that there are no words that can ever equal their loss. I know that there is nothing that I can ever say or do to ease their heartache. And today, I simply want to say this:

As President and as Commander-in-Chief, I take full responsibility for all our counterterrorism operations, including the one that inadvertently took the lives of Warren and Giovanni. I profoundly regret what happened. On behalf of the United States government, I offer our deepest apologies to the families.

As soon as we determined the cause of their deaths, I directed that the existence of this operation be declassified and disclosed publicly. I did so because the Weinstein and Lo Porto families deserve to know the truth. And I did so because even as certain aspects of our national security efforts have to remain secret in order to succeed, the United States is a democracy committed to openness in good times and in bad.

Our initial assessment indicates that this operation was fully consistent with the guidelines under which we conduct counterterrorism efforts in the region, which has been our focus for years because it is the home of al Qaeda’s leadership. And based on the intelligence that we had obtained at the time, including hundreds of hours of surveillance, we believed that this was an al Qaeda compound; that no civilians were present; and that capturing these terrorists was not possible. And we do believe that the operation did take out dangerous members of al Qaeda. What we did not know, tragically, is that al Qaeda was hiding the presence of Warren and Giovanni in this same compound.

It is a cruel and bitter truth that in the fog of war generally and our fight against terrorists specifically, mistakes — sometimes deadly mistakes — can occur. But one of the things that sets America apart from many other nations, one of the things that makes us exceptional is our willingness to confront squarely our imperfections and to learn from our mistakes.

Already, I have directed a full review of what happened. We will identify the lessons that can be learned from this tragedy, and any changes that should be made. We will do our utmost to ensure it is not repeated. And we will continue to do everything we can to prevent the loss of innocent lives — not just innocent Americans, but all innocent lives in our counterterrorism operations.

Today we join their families and friends in honoring Warren and Giovanni — two humanitarians who came from different countries but who were united by a spirit of service. For decades, Warren lived the ideals of our country, serving with the Peace Corps and later with the United States Agency for International Development. He devoted his life to people across Africa and South Asia. He was a loving husband, father and grandfather who willingly left the comforts of home to help the people of Pakistan. At the time of his abduction, he was a USAID contractor focused on helping Pakistani families escape poverty and give a better life to their children.

Giovanni’s humanitarianism also took him around the world to the Central African Republic, to Haiti and ultimately Pakistan. Like Warren, he fell in love with Pakistan and its people, and believed passionately that he could made a difference in their lives. Giovanni’s service reflected the commitment of the Italian people, our great allies and friends, to the security and dignity of people around the world. And today is a reminder of the bonds of friendship between our countries and the shared values that bind Americans and Italians together.

There could be no starker contrast between these two selfless men and their al Qaeda captors. Warren’s work benefited people across faiths. Meanwhile, al Qaeda boasted to the world that it held Warren, citing his Jewish faith. Al Qaeda held both men for years, even as Warren’s health deteriorated. They deprived these men of precious, irreplaceable years with family who missed them terribly.

Amid grief that is unimaginable, I pray that these two families will find some small measure of solace in knowing that Warren and Giovanni’s legacy will endure. Their service will be remembered by the Pakistani men, women and children whose lives they touched and made better. Their spirit will live on in the love of their families, who are in our thoughts and prayers today, especially Warren’s wife Elaine, their daughters Alisa and Jennifer, and their families.

And the shining example of these two men will stand as a light to people the world over who see suffering and answer with compassion, who see hatred and offer their love, who see war and work for peace.

May God bless these two brave men, and may He watch over and comfort their families for all the years to come.

END 10:13

Thanks, Rup! http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2015/04/23/obama-statement-on-hostage-deaths-i-want-to-express-our-grief/

We need to change our policy. Time to stop reviewing them after the fact. Over and over again. Would America be safer if this attack would have gone exactly as planned. I just don't think so. The bombs have to stop.

Which is one problem. Another is the history: What we do to "Them" overseas always comes home to be applied to "Us" as in We the People.

you can't keep pumping money into the MIC if you don't have "enemies" out there.

"we" do it to "them", the public begins accepting it, then "it" is done to "us"

i have tried explaining to whites that what is happening to Poc(by the police) will eventually happen to every1 if it isnt stopped

Indiscriminate bombing of unknown targets would seem to be negligent homicide at the very least. Or did we get it all when President Obama said, "There is nothing that I can ever say or do." Yes, that quote is taken out of context, but it really sums up our nation's attitude toward its murderously reckless ways. We're not going to say or do anything substantive about the people responsible for the deaths of Weinstein and Lo Porto. We're going to continue blowing people to Kingdom Come based on little more than one person's say-so, and call that justice for terrorists (who apparently aren't deserving of any of those namby-pamby "due process" or "right to trial" optional considerations).

I still cannot trim my ideals and my faith in the black letter of the Constitution to fit this year's, this decade's, this century's or this millennium's fashion.

Since when does a President get to be judge, jury and executioner for American citizens?

Will the drone program be extended to wipe out domestic terrorists, too?

Will political opponents of such a program and common citizens who protest such government action be considered domestic terrorists?

From what I can find, the answers to all of those questions is classified secret information.

As secret government doesn't allow oversight by citizens, it is un-democratic and un-American.

and actions of war when Congress meekly genuflected to Bush / Cheney and abrogated its responsibility for war powers and the purse. Sins of omission are just as grievous as sins of commission --lest we forget.

Freaking Blackwater was a top dog in the Drone Death Team.

Privatized war making via corporate assassins reminds me of when CIA first used professionals, family owned businesses, way back in 1960.

It's impossible even to parody anymore how sick and extreme the talking points have become, when we are asked to normalize and accept secret government, bombing in countries where we are not at war, and "Kill Lists" for an American president.

This is how dumbed down, passive, and blind to our own Constitution we are assumed to be. This is how perverted our purchased "democracy" and its talking points have become.

Good god.

Were they banned or were they bullied out of town?

about the hostages but the scum they call AW that held them hostage

Due process by Karl Rove isn't cutting it for me.

Continuing strategies instituted by international war criminals does not do it for me either.

But I got the distinct impression from President Obama's remarks that the drone strikes killed several people we didn't mean to kill (indiscriminate) or we didn't know were in the vicinity (unknown targets). I suppose the case could be argued that the drone strikes operated exactly as planned, which would make these killings and destruction deliberate, but I'd prefer to subject that charge to the judicial process before reaching that conclusion.

The CIA thought that generic "bad guys" were there, but didn't know the specific names of the bad guys. Do you think generic "bad guys" count as "known targets"?

That's not going to happen to the president, or to the people who pulled the virtual trigger.

I give him credit for an apology, at least, but if that's the end of the matter it's just going to happen again.

I gather that we are only hearing about the incident because of the identity of the civilians? Makes me wonder how many more dronemurders have happened.

....do NOT bring back the DEAD or rebuild ruined families.

-- Agathon, from Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics (448 BC - 400 BC)

Thanks to black hole theory, though, that may be changing. Dunno, not involved in any of that any more. That was write out.

Th accept it as the New Normal, or the "Fog of War" as you did above is appalling.

A journalist friend said if NSA spying on everyone, so be it, it's OK with her as she has nothing to hide. I asked if she was worried that she's connected to people who may be, simply by having telephoned the same number, or being in an electronic Rolodex somewhere, and she said that's nothing to worry about. I didn't have the heart to tell her about Hannah Arendt:

...that say the two men "joined" al Qaeda.

They were both captured and held as hostages until their deaths by the U.S. counter-terrorism strike.

Sloppy journalism.

In addition to the dead American and Italian hostages, the January drone strikes also killed two Americans who had joined Al Qaeda.

Who was at the controls? Let's indict that man.

..and the Assassination Drone War is HIS baby, run from the White House, targeting in secrecy without oversight or accountability.

I pray this makes him a little more reflective before he pulls the trigger again.

sounds very close to the crap I hear coming from Teabaggers.

If you can point your brain to that......he wasn't at the controls.

Its unfortunate that they died but it was a risk that they were willing to take and I'm glad no troops were put in harms way to extract or rescue them.

It's not all about us.

built by OUR Tax money,
and fired by our President.
YES. It IS about us.

Others try to prevent India and Pakistan from going to war through ways like aid for pakistan and dealing with terrorism.

The whole thing is a mess but it sure isn't just because of the us.

We don't belong there.
As long as we stay there and kill families, friends, and neighbors,
especially with Terror-From-the-Sky
we WILL pay the price.

How many Iraqis were killed in Iraq by Saddam as opposed to the number killed by the US?
HINT: Saddam was not even close. Not in a hundred years.

How many Libyans were killed by Qaddafi in their Civil War as opposed to the number of Libyans killed by the US?
HINT: Like Saddam, Qaddafi was not even close


If you want to cloak yourself from responsibility with THAT rationalization,
they why isn't the US "saving lives" in Central Africa?

embargoing a religious minority who is being oppressed & discriminating against a corrupt kleptocracy the whole country wants to overthrow except for the small Hadi Loyalists. You heard of the Southern Movement?

Anyway, we embargo the Houthis. Allow all the US weapons purchasers Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, Jordan, Egypt, & Morocco to bomb the shit out of Yemen. We should get the F out have a mind our own business & leave everybody else alone foreign policy. I guarantee things will improve, we sure as shit aint making the world a better place.

Saudi Arabia and Pakistan may have just renewed a secret nuclear weapons pact

The visit by the chairman of Pakistan's Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee will likely prompt concern in Washington and other major capitals that Saudi Arabia and Pakistan have reconfirmed an arrangement whereby Pakistan, if asked, will supply Saudi Arabia with nuclear warheads.

The main meeting on Gen. Rashid Mahmoud's itinerary was with King Salman — the topics discussed were reported as "deep relations between the two countries and ... a number of issues of common interest."

Read more: http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/nuclear-nuances-of-saudi-pakistan-meeting#When:21:27:41Z#ixzz3YAIzerA8

Pakistan ISI (their CIA)

Al-Qaeda

The ISI supported Al-Qaeda during the war against the soviet regime, through the Taliban, and it is believed there are still contact between Al-Qaeda and the ISI.[120] An assessment by British Intelligence in 2000 into Al-Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan showed the ISI were playing an active role in some of them.[121] The leak in 2012 of e-mails from Stratfor revealed that papers captured during the raid in Abbotabad on Osama Bin Laden's compound showed up to 12 ISI officials knew where he was and that Bin Laden had been in regular contact with the ISI.[122]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter-Services_Intelligence#Al-Qaeda

Aside from terrorism issues from the two countries how about human decency

2011 Bahrain uprising

The Bahraini uprising was a series of demonstrations, amounting to a sustained campaign of civil and violent[21][22] resistance in the Persian Gulf country of Bahrain. As part of the revolutionary wave of protests in the Middle East and North Africa following the self-immolation of Mohamed Bouazizi in Tunisia, the Bahraini protests were initially aimed at achieving greater political freedom and equality for the majority Shia population,[23][24] and expanded to a call to end the monarchy of Hamad bin Isa Al Khalifa[3] following a deadly night raid on 17 February 2011 against protesters at the Pearl Roundabout in Manama,[25][26] known locally as Bloody Thursday.

Protesters in Manama camped for days at the Pearl Roundabout, which became the centre of the protests. After a month, the government requested troops and police from the Gulf Cooperation Council. On 14 March, 1000 troops from Saudi Arabia and 500 troops from UAE entered Bahrain and crushed the uprising.[27] A day later, the king of Bahrain declared martial law and a three-month state of emergency.[28][29] Pearl Roundabout was cleared of protesters and the iconic statue at its center was destroyed.

(Pakistan)

The appearance of the advertisements was preceded by two "quiet trips" to Pakistan by Bandar bin Sultan, now the Director General of the Saudi Intelligence Agency. Later, the Foreign Minister of Bahrain, Khalid bin Ahmed Al Khalifa and commander of the National Guard made a similar visit. It was only then that the advertisements started appearing.[254] The Pakistani government said they have "nothing to do" with these recruitments, because they are done via "private channels".[250] However, the Iran News Agency reported that in August 2011, Asif Ali Zardari, the President of Pakistan has agreed to send more Pakistani troops to Bahrain during his one-day visit to the country.[260] It was also reported by The Jakarta Post that the Bahraini government tried to hire Malaysian mercenaries.[261]

Al Jazeera English sources estimated that the number of riot police and the National Guard has increased by as high as 50 percent after at least 2,500 Pakistanis were recruited in April and May 2011. According to Nabeel Rajab, the exact size of the increase is not known, however he said it was "much more than 1,500 or 2,000". The size of the National Guard in 2011 was estimated by the US State Department to be 1,200. After requirements its size has increased by about 100 percent.[254]

Foreigner officers were among security forces ordered to attack protesters.[256] The BICI report mentioned that officers of Pakistani origins were responsible for mistreatment of detainees.[262] "He was beaten, tortured and hung. During the first three days, he was stripped of his clothes and sexually assaulted, in addition to being deprived of sleep ... He was routinely beaten and insulted by the prison guards, all of whom were of Pakistani origin", the report mentioned.[11]:449

Bahraini human rights groups and opposition parties have heavily criticized recruiting mercenaries in the Bahraini security forces. Nabeel Rajab said "They’re told they are going to go to a holy war in Bahrain to kill some non-Muslims or kafir [infidel] or Shias ... And those are maybe responsible for a lot of killing and a lot of systematic torture and human rights violations committed in the past months and years".[250] Michael Stephens, of the Royal United Services Institute linked recruiting mercenaries in the Bahraini security forces to the lack of government confidence in its own citizens. "So they rely on foreign recruits to unquestioningly carry out orders of violently suppressing protests", he said.[254] Bruce Riedel, a leading American expert on South Asia said "when the very serious demonstrations began and it looked like the regime might even be toppled at a certain point, their hiring of mercenaries went up substantially".[250]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahraini_uprising_of_2011#Censorship_and_repression

correct in saying that they will not stop until they consider this revenged. The MIC wanted a non-stop war. They have one.

or... I can just stay home and not go in war zones like Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria.

Not saying that its bad that they made those choices but it wasn't like they were deployed by a military, they voluntarily inserted themselves in a war zone with no protection or backup and paid the ultimate price for making those choices.

Again, its sad they died but ultimately they made the decision to take that the risk.

Al Qaeda didn't kill them. We did.

People go to war zones for various reasons, some very noble, like helping others. You seem remarkably callous about that, as does the US government. It has been repeatedly criticized by the friends and family members of people taken captive over there for its combination of hardheadedness, incompetence, and indifference. We sacrifice them on the altar of our foreign policy goals.

Here's Mrs. Weinstein:

After Obama gave his remarks, Weinstein's wife released a statement on behalf of the family condemning the "cowardly actions of those who took Warren captive" and expressing disappointment in the U.S. government.

“I want to thank Congressman John Delaney, Senator Barbara Mikulski, and Senator Ben Cardin – as well as specific officials from the Federal Bureau of Investigation – for their relentless efforts to free my husband.” Elaine Weinstein said. “Unfortunately, the assistance we received from other elements of the U.S. Government was inconsistent and disappointing over the course of three and a half years. We hope that my husband’s death and the others who have faced similar tragedies in recent months will finally prompt the U.S. Government to take its responsibilities seriously and establish a coordinated and consistent approach to supporting hostages and their families.”

Nobility doesn't protect you from the reality and risks involved in going into a war zone. No one ordered them to go there, they made the choice, took the risks and it didn't pay off.

Look, I feel terrible that they died but its a war zone, they placed themselves in situation by going there to begin with then didn't take precautions which led to them being captured.

if it wasn't for OUR Drone Strike.

They had both survived for 3 years and 5 years respectively.

when dealing with life and death decisions

What AQ would have probably done to them.

Or on the TPP. But he does have redeeming values.

Some tangos were taken out too, but nobody wants to read that story...

had civilian deaths.

Killing is killing

Go ask Dr. Warren Weinstein, and Giovanni Lo Porto if they would have preferred to be blown to pieces by a drone, or a dumb bomb.

you need to insult someone.

idea of what we are arguing about.

...right?

It's a pretty fucking far cry from "bad intelligence" to "terror weapons."

...then bombing this structure based on.....what? (a whim?).... is also a far cry from legitimacy.

Not the US's fault al-Qaeda doesn't follow basic rules regarding treatment of POWs.

It happens ALL by itself.

No, we shouldn't be bombing Pakistan.

Now, can we get back to the utterly ridiculous assertion in your OP?

You seem a little confused.

I posted a news article.


Do you deny that Dr. Warren Weinsteinand Giovanni Lo Porto where killed in this Drone Strike?
I don't find that the be ridiculous on ANY level.

Yes, I do.

Because that's totally the point I was making.

I was saying they weren't actually killed in the strike.










why do I hate Michelle Obama

Those two people would have loved to walk away from their captors, I'm sure. Obama wasn't the one keeping them prisoner.

Sorry, made sense to me yesterday.

That's the sort of salient point your OP glosses over, here.

You jump on the Presidents ass like he intended to, the us drone strike targeted an Al Qaida facility... Damn u make it sound like he had Intel the hostages were there & said yes go ahead...Bullshit

Plus you forgot to mention how many rat bastard terrorist he killed along with their stockpiles of weapons and ammunition which would have been used to kill way way more than 2 innocent hostages...