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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSun Tzu on perpetual war:
Sun Tzŭ said: ... When you engage in actual fighting, if victory is long in coming, the men's weapons will grow dull and their ardour will be damped. If you lay siege to a town, you will exhaust your strength.... There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare.... In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)I wonder what he would have wrote had his life took him in that direction.
Man from Pickens
(1,713 posts)read The Art of War - it is poetry, unmistakably, by any reasonable definition of the word
that it is also eminently practical does not unmake its poetic essence
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)It is very poetic. But, when read as a whole it doesn't quite hit as hard small excerpts do. Also I must stress I read it in English, something is always lost in the translation.
phantom power
(25,966 posts)daleanime
(17,796 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)"We" as in the Have-Mores and their Empire can never have enough.
9-11; Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace: How We Got to Be So Hated by Noam Chomsky and Gore Vidal addressed the issue in detail.
For the rest of you mopes, war brings austerity. Tough, huh?
kairos12
(12,906 posts)calimary
(81,612 posts)"... to the last drop of YOUR blood."
I think we should start the drumbeat on a new meme: "YOU FIRST!"
YOU first, bill kristol. YOU first, lindsey graham. YOU first, charles krauthammer. YOU first, john mccain. YOU first, george will. YOU first, jeb bush. YOU first, scott walker. YOU first, ted cruz. YOU first, all you pantywaist, tough-talking, saber-rattling, know-nothing, never-served, never-saw-combat Monday-morning quarterbacks. YOU first, all you lazy coddled assholes at your fancy-ass think tanks who like to talk tough and then sit back in your luxurious comfy chairs in your air-conditioned studios and your fancy-ass corner offices. YOU first, chickenhawks! YOU first. You want it that bad? Well, get on in there, then. Go knock yourselves out. Have all the war you want! Live it up! But it's on YOU this time. YOU go do it. YOU get your hands dirty. YOU get shot up. YOU go get your own legs blown off by some IED. Sign up, Suit up, and Ship Out!!!
YOU First! YOU put YOUR OWN skin in the game and YOUR OWN ass on the line. Then the rest of us might think about joining you. Maybe.
kairos12
(12,906 posts)calimary
(81,612 posts)AND their kids. THEY are the ones agitating for more war, more war, more war, and more, more, more, more. The vast majority of the chickenhawks have NEVER served. They've NEVER enlisted. NEVER wore their country's uniform. NEVER saw combat. NEVER got their hands dirty. NEVER had ANY skin in the game. All they've ever done is sit in their nice air-conditioned offices and broadcast studios and the "Meet the Press" set every Sunday and pontificate about how we need endless war! We need a war HERE. We need a war THERE. We need a war in THAT other place over there, TOO! john mccain in his convention speech endorsing mitt romney in 2012 cited FIVE different places where we oughta be putting a LOT of boots on the ground. FIVE separate war fronts. FIVE different countries! Iraq and Afghanistan, plus Syria, Iran, and I think he also included Yemen in that. But according to Mother Jones, it's far more than that, even!
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/09/john-mccain-world-attack-map-syria
And as for people like mccain - who actually ARE war veterans, I don't care! I'd say the same thing. You want that damn fucking war so bad - THEN GET YER ASS IN THERE AND GO HAVE YOURSELF SOME!!!!!! Knock yerself out! SHOW us how macho you are! Time to get some skin in the game! Same thing for YOU, TOO, Traitor-tom cotton. You DID serve. Okay, then I suppose you wouldn't mind leading our forces back there - YOUR boots back on the ground. Dayum - if I were able to, that's the kind of legislation I would either sponsor or introduce. And then do as much talk-show talking as I could. The Mandatory Skin-in-the-Game Act. If you're out there pushing for war in the public square, especially on the people's dime, marco rubio, then YOU FIRST. YOU suit up and lead the way, jeb bush. I don't care HOW far you tried to walk it back. Your FIRST INSTINCT, the FIRST thing off the tip of your tongue was YES you would have gone into Iraq. Knowing whatever you did or didn't, at whenever a time or era. That was your instant response, what was first on your mind, and first in your head and first from your lips. Besides, you've appointed and are keeping paul wolfowitz as one of your inner-circle advisors on foreign policy, plus your ding-dong dry-drunk miscreant worst-president-ever no-good idiot brother. So it's pretty doggone clear what you can be expected to do. And NONE of it's good, either.
And THEN (and ONLY THEN) come back and tell me all about it. And how damn glorious it was. And how macho you are NOW. Probably as much so as all those Iraqi troops whose modus operandi seems to be to turn tail and run when the heat turns up. Saddam Hussein's much-vaunted, feared, and PR-massaged Revolutionary Guard did the same thing when they realized all was lost in Kuwait. They grabbed what they could steal, turned tail, and ran - eventually leaving a broad trail of stolen loot and even weapons behind, on the ground as they fled back to Iraq through the desert. I remember seeing full-color full-page photos of it in the news magazines back during Operation Desert Storm - the one led by "Stormin' Norman" Schwarzkopf. I was still working full-time in news myself back then. Everything we'd been told about the fearsome Revolutionary Guard failed to materialize. They ran.
So perhaps it's time we ask ourselves, DO WE REALLY want to keep having these wars? THESE wars. In other places, where we're not under physical assault here on the terrestrial U.S.? Are we REALLY okay with having to prop up how many countries or areas of the world that can't seem to hold together on their own? Should we start considering letting nature take its course? Some of these parts of the world have been in turmoil for thousands of years! The problems there just might possibly NOT be fixable. Should we start leaning toward even considering that reality? What's the point - if the home team isn't motivated or interested? Maybe a country like Iraq, which was artificially crafted by others, isn't meant to be set up, the way it is at present. It's a mess at present. May be a lost cause. Why should we continue to throw away years, trillions of dollars, and most especially our precious children and other loved ones on a lost cause? We can't remake them into anything. THEY have to remake THEMSELVES!!! Perhaps it's time to recognize this? To speak of it openly? To introduce it in the public square? To broach the subject?
I'm even wondering if ALL warfare is eventually going to morph into some sort of cyber war. Hell, we've already seen hackings galore of BIG entities, from Sony to the U.S. government. Warfare of the bloodless kind. I'd rather it be that humankind finally matured a little and realized we have a lot more in common than we have differences and we really ought to work together - ALL of us planet-wide.
However, human nature being what it is, I doubt it. I imagine that's a little too much to expect of us humanoids, at least for the time being. It's expecting too many of us to evolve a little more. And some of us out there don't want to.
Calista241
(5,586 posts)I will say that both John McCain and Lindsey Graham both served in the military and in combat theaters.
The others are buffoons that don't know shit about shit.
calimary
(81,612 posts)and even hesitant about getting this country mired in another war. They actually know better!
dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)sarisataka
(18,942 posts)for anyone who thinks they know how to conduct a war.
Yes I'm looking at you asswipes-
sulphurdunn
(6,891 posts)Sun-Tzu
That would some kinda skill.
sarisataka
(18,942 posts)The Cold War and the Nazi occupation of Czechoslovakia are arguable examples that come to mind.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Rules of engagement. SI'm Tzu's dispassionate counsel would no doubt be, nuke the region and provide gifts to any survivors.
demigoddess
(6,645 posts)know this. Years of war accomplishing nothing. Iraq, years of war accomplishing nothing worth accomplishing. Korea, war accomplishing nothing.
Snow Leopard
(348 posts)with you on that one. I'm sure they are much happier that they don't live in the Peoples Paradise up north.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)that accomplished anything worthwhile. But we have been at war nearly constantly since to accomplish nothing save enriching the merchants of death.
demigoddess
(6,645 posts)over 60 years. My father and step father who fought there have both died since. Their whole lives have not seen an end to the Korean WAr. We stood guard over West Berlin for over 40 years? How long do you want americans to stand guard between Sunnis and Shias?
Romulox
(25,960 posts)riqster
(13,986 posts)erronis
(15,481 posts)It seems to me that the model of the "cold war" has permeated the brains of the armchair class. You can fight a war through proxies (other small nations, young people from your country who have not other options - thanks.)
In the old days we'd see these masters of the universe sitting in front of a nice fire with a brandy and telling the young servant corporal to dispatch 10,000 more troops to the forests of Verdun, the shores of Gallipoli, the death-fields of Korea.
In the new days you won't find many warriors that have actually fought in battle wanting to send others to their death for causes that won't be causes in another 20 years.
Rex
(65,616 posts)Of course he is right.
kentuck
(111,111 posts)We gave them their country back and without a lot of hostilities. We trained their soldiers. We gave them billions of dollars of weapons. They blew it.
There is nothing more we can do. Let them work it out. Obama was right the first time. He is wrong now.
delrem
(9,688 posts)They just weren't up to the gift y'all gave them.
kentuck
(111,111 posts)There are no good options. Declare victory and get out.
delrem
(9,688 posts)You did write the post I responded to, right?
kentuck
(111,111 posts)But I have never supported the war in Iraq, so I might be biased a bit?
Yes, we gave their country back to them... after about a million deaths and untold destruction.
What would be your solution? Should we stay there forever? Should we attempt to re-build in the middle of a civil war, also, probably brought about by the initial invasion and the inability of the Iraqi government in Baghdad to govern their country, after the Sunni Baathist Army of Saddam was scattered far and wide.
What would you do?
delrem
(9,688 posts)kentuck
(111,111 posts)I think we are all victims, in one manner or other. Of course, it is the Iraqis that have physically suffered more than anyone.
I'm not sure our presence in their country is going to help anyone? But that is what I said in 2003...
delrem
(9,688 posts)No, Kentuck, the USA is not a victim of the US war on Iraq.
The USA is the perpetrator of the war crime.
kentuck
(111,111 posts)We have suffered a lot from this blunder and will continue to suffer in the future, not just the families of those killed and wounded, but the psyche of our entire nation. We are still paying the price.
Mustellus
(328 posts)This is the war that doesn't end
It just goes on and on my friend.
Some people started fighting it
not knowing what it was.
And they'll keep right on fighting it
forever, just because .....
This is the war that doesn't end....
repeat ad infinitum
Initech
(100,152 posts)lovemydog
(11,833 posts)j/k
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)lovemydog
(11,833 posts)Along with RZA, GZA, GRUMPZA, DOPEZA and SLEEPZA.
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)Our perpetual war will end when the Bush family and their friends stop getting rich from it.