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kentuck

(111,111 posts)
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 01:16 PM Jun 2015

Sun Tzu on perpetual war:

Sun Tzŭ said: ... When you engage in actual fighting, if victory is long in coming, the men's weapons will grow dull and their ardour will be damped. If you lay siege to a town, you will exhaust your strength.... There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare.... In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns.

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Sun Tzu on perpetual war: (Original Post) kentuck Jun 2015 OP
He seems like he was quite the poet Kalidurga Jun 2015 #1
He was Man from Pickens Jun 2015 #2
I have only read the English translation Kalidurga Jun 2015 #3
+1 daleanime Jun 2015 #5
sadly, there are uncountable instances of weapon-makers benefiting from prolonged war phantom power Jun 2015 #4
K&R..... daleanime Jun 2015 #6
Well, we need the money. Octafish Jun 2015 #7
Sun Tzu did not account for Chicken Hawks who will fight to the last drop of your blood. kairos12 Jun 2015 #8
Well put, kairos12! calimary Jun 2015 #20
I would say "your kids first." kairos12 Jun 2015 #22
Well, I would add that. But it's important THEY be forced to go, too. calimary Jun 2015 #34
While in general I agree with you. Calista241 Jun 2015 #31
They certainly did. Therefore it would stand to reason that they'd be EXTRA cautious calimary Jun 2015 #35
If only Bush had read that instead of My Pet Goat. n/t dixiegrrrrl Jun 2015 #9
It should be required reading sarisataka Jun 2015 #10
"The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting." sulphurdunn Jun 2015 #11
It happens sarisataka Jun 2015 #16
But then, Sun Tzu wasn't much for ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2015 #12
anybody living through the vietnam era would demigoddess Jun 2015 #13
the south Koreans might beg to differ Snow Leopard Jun 2015 #15
That was the last war in which the US was involved hifiguy Jun 2015 #28
and americans have been standing guard on that border for demigoddess Jun 2015 #33
Perhaps damping our ardour is the point. We are a broken, compliant people. nt Romulox Jun 2015 #14
The objective is not military victory. The objective is the triumph of the MIC. riqster Jun 2015 #17
"When you engage in actual fighting" - the generals/commanders are not fighting at all erronis Jun 2015 #24
Yes well he probably never imagined such monstrosities like the MIC. Rex Jun 2015 #18
Why not declare victory and get the hell out?? kentuck Jun 2015 #19
Yah, you were so generous! delrem Jun 2015 #23
I never gave them anything. "they"? kentuck Jun 2015 #25
"we", "them", "they",.... yah. "They blew it". delrem Jun 2015 #27
Yes. I wrote it. kentuck Jun 2015 #29
Maybe not blame the victim? delrem Jun 2015 #30
Who's the victim? kentuck Jun 2015 #32
You've got to be joking! delrem Jun 2015 #36
Yes, the USA is a "victim" also... kentuck Jun 2015 #41
with apologies to Sherri Lewis and Lambchop..... Mustellus Jun 2015 #21
We're in an endless war with no goal and no enemy. Initech Jun 2015 #26
Sun Tzu is my favorite member of the Wu-Tang Clan lovemydog Jun 2015 #37
Sure, he's great, but you can't neglect the contribution of his Arkestra. Warren DeMontague Jun 2015 #38
Yeah, Sun Ra was in the Clan. lovemydog Jun 2015 #39
sun Tzu didn't know that war would eventually become a cash cow for the ruling class Doctor_J Jun 2015 #40

Kalidurga

(14,177 posts)
1. He seems like he was quite the poet
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 01:20 PM
Jun 2015

I wonder what he would have wrote had his life took him in that direction.

 

Man from Pickens

(1,713 posts)
2. He was
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 01:30 PM
Jun 2015

read The Art of War - it is poetry, unmistakably, by any reasonable definition of the word

that it is also eminently practical does not unmake its poetic essence

Kalidurga

(14,177 posts)
3. I have only read the English translation
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 01:38 PM
Jun 2015

It is very poetic. But, when read as a whole it doesn't quite hit as hard small excerpts do. Also I must stress I read it in English, something is always lost in the translation.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
7. Well, we need the money.
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 02:16 PM
Jun 2015

"We" as in the Have-Mores and their Empire can never have enough.

9-11; Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace: How We Got to Be So Hated by Noam Chomsky and Gore Vidal addressed the issue in detail.

For the rest of you mopes, war brings austerity. Tough, huh?

calimary

(81,612 posts)
20. Well put, kairos12!
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 03:16 PM
Jun 2015

"... to the last drop of YOUR blood."

I think we should start the drumbeat on a new meme: "YOU FIRST!"

YOU first, bill kristol. YOU first, lindsey graham. YOU first, charles krauthammer. YOU first, john mccain. YOU first, george will. YOU first, jeb bush. YOU first, scott walker. YOU first, ted cruz. YOU first, all you pantywaist, tough-talking, saber-rattling, know-nothing, never-served, never-saw-combat Monday-morning quarterbacks. YOU first, all you lazy coddled assholes at your fancy-ass think tanks who like to talk tough and then sit back in your luxurious comfy chairs in your air-conditioned studios and your fancy-ass corner offices. YOU first, chickenhawks! YOU first. You want it that bad? Well, get on in there, then. Go knock yourselves out. Have all the war you want! Live it up! But it's on YOU this time. YOU go do it. YOU get your hands dirty. YOU get shot up. YOU go get your own legs blown off by some IED. Sign up, Suit up, and Ship Out!!!

YOU First! YOU put YOUR OWN skin in the game and YOUR OWN ass on the line. Then the rest of us might think about joining you. Maybe.

calimary

(81,612 posts)
34. Well, I would add that. But it's important THEY be forced to go, too.
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 06:11 PM
Jun 2015

AND their kids. THEY are the ones agitating for more war, more war, more war, and more, more, more, more. The vast majority of the chickenhawks have NEVER served. They've NEVER enlisted. NEVER wore their country's uniform. NEVER saw combat. NEVER got their hands dirty. NEVER had ANY skin in the game. All they've ever done is sit in their nice air-conditioned offices and broadcast studios and the "Meet the Press" set every Sunday and pontificate about how we need endless war! We need a war HERE. We need a war THERE. We need a war in THAT other place over there, TOO! john mccain in his convention speech endorsing mitt romney in 2012 cited FIVE different places where we oughta be putting a LOT of boots on the ground. FIVE separate war fronts. FIVE different countries! Iraq and Afghanistan, plus Syria, Iran, and I think he also included Yemen in that. But according to Mother Jones, it's far more than that, even!

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/09/john-mccain-world-attack-map-syria

And as for people like mccain - who actually ARE war veterans, I don't care! I'd say the same thing. You want that damn fucking war so bad - THEN GET YER ASS IN THERE AND GO HAVE YOURSELF SOME!!!!!! Knock yerself out! SHOW us how macho you are! Time to get some skin in the game! Same thing for YOU, TOO, Traitor-tom cotton. You DID serve. Okay, then I suppose you wouldn't mind leading our forces back there - YOUR boots back on the ground. Dayum - if I were able to, that's the kind of legislation I would either sponsor or introduce. And then do as much talk-show talking as I could. The Mandatory Skin-in-the-Game Act. If you're out there pushing for war in the public square, especially on the people's dime, marco rubio, then YOU FIRST. YOU suit up and lead the way, jeb bush. I don't care HOW far you tried to walk it back. Your FIRST INSTINCT, the FIRST thing off the tip of your tongue was YES you would have gone into Iraq. Knowing whatever you did or didn't, at whenever a time or era. That was your instant response, what was first on your mind, and first in your head and first from your lips. Besides, you've appointed and are keeping paul wolfowitz as one of your inner-circle advisors on foreign policy, plus your ding-dong dry-drunk miscreant worst-president-ever no-good idiot brother. So it's pretty doggone clear what you can be expected to do. And NONE of it's good, either.

And THEN (and ONLY THEN) come back and tell me all about it. And how damn glorious it was. And how macho you are NOW. Probably as much so as all those Iraqi troops whose modus operandi seems to be to turn tail and run when the heat turns up. Saddam Hussein's much-vaunted, feared, and PR-massaged Revolutionary Guard did the same thing when they realized all was lost in Kuwait. They grabbed what they could steal, turned tail, and ran - eventually leaving a broad trail of stolen loot and even weapons behind, on the ground as they fled back to Iraq through the desert. I remember seeing full-color full-page photos of it in the news magazines back during Operation Desert Storm - the one led by "Stormin' Norman" Schwarzkopf. I was still working full-time in news myself back then. Everything we'd been told about the fearsome Revolutionary Guard failed to materialize. They ran.

So perhaps it's time we ask ourselves, DO WE REALLY want to keep having these wars? THESE wars. In other places, where we're not under physical assault here on the terrestrial U.S.? Are we REALLY okay with having to prop up how many countries or areas of the world that can't seem to hold together on their own? Should we start considering letting nature take its course? Some of these parts of the world have been in turmoil for thousands of years! The problems there just might possibly NOT be fixable. Should we start leaning toward even considering that reality? What's the point - if the home team isn't motivated or interested? Maybe a country like Iraq, which was artificially crafted by others, isn't meant to be set up, the way it is at present. It's a mess at present. May be a lost cause. Why should we continue to throw away years, trillions of dollars, and most especially our precious children and other loved ones on a lost cause? We can't remake them into anything. THEY have to remake THEMSELVES!!! Perhaps it's time to recognize this? To speak of it openly? To introduce it in the public square? To broach the subject?

I'm even wondering if ALL warfare is eventually going to morph into some sort of cyber war. Hell, we've already seen hackings galore of BIG entities, from Sony to the U.S. government. Warfare of the bloodless kind. I'd rather it be that humankind finally matured a little and realized we have a lot more in common than we have differences and we really ought to work together - ALL of us planet-wide.

However, human nature being what it is, I doubt it. I imagine that's a little too much to expect of us humanoids, at least for the time being. It's expecting too many of us to evolve a little more. And some of us out there don't want to.

Calista241

(5,586 posts)
31. While in general I agree with you.
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 04:38 PM
Jun 2015

I will say that both John McCain and Lindsey Graham both served in the military and in combat theaters.

The others are buffoons that don't know shit about shit.

calimary

(81,612 posts)
35. They certainly did. Therefore it would stand to reason that they'd be EXTRA cautious
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 06:21 PM
Jun 2015

and even hesitant about getting this country mired in another war. They actually know better!

sarisataka

(18,942 posts)
10. It should be required reading
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 02:24 PM
Jun 2015

for anyone who thinks they know how to conduct a war.

Yes I'm looking at you asswipes-

 

sulphurdunn

(6,891 posts)
11. "The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting."
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 02:33 PM
Jun 2015

Sun-Tzu

That would some kinda skill.

sarisataka

(18,942 posts)
16. It happens
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 03:00 PM
Jun 2015

The Cold War and the Nazi occupation of Czechoslovakia are arguable examples that come to mind.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
12. But then, Sun Tzu wasn't much for ...
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 02:41 PM
Jun 2015

Rules of engagement. SI'm Tzu's dispassionate counsel would no doubt be, nuke the region and provide gifts to any survivors.

demigoddess

(6,645 posts)
13. anybody living through the vietnam era would
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 02:44 PM
Jun 2015

know this. Years of war accomplishing nothing. Iraq, years of war accomplishing nothing worth accomplishing. Korea, war accomplishing nothing.

 

Snow Leopard

(348 posts)
15. the south Koreans might beg to differ
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 02:53 PM
Jun 2015

with you on that one. I'm sure they are much happier that they don't live in the Peoples Paradise up north.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
28. That was the last war in which the US was involved
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 03:57 PM
Jun 2015

that accomplished anything worthwhile. But we have been at war nearly constantly since to accomplish nothing save enriching the merchants of death.

demigoddess

(6,645 posts)
33. and americans have been standing guard on that border for
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 06:10 PM
Jun 2015

over 60 years. My father and step father who fought there have both died since. Their whole lives have not seen an end to the Korean WAr. We stood guard over West Berlin for over 40 years? How long do you want americans to stand guard between Sunnis and Shias?

erronis

(15,481 posts)
24. "When you engage in actual fighting" - the generals/commanders are not fighting at all
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 03:26 PM
Jun 2015
... When you engage in actual fighting ...

It seems to me that the model of the "cold war" has permeated the brains of the armchair class. You can fight a war through proxies (other small nations, young people from your country who have not other options - thanks.)

In the old days we'd see these masters of the universe sitting in front of a nice fire with a brandy and telling the young servant corporal to dispatch 10,000 more troops to the forests of Verdun, the shores of Gallipoli, the death-fields of Korea.

In the new days you won't find many warriors that have actually fought in battle wanting to send others to their death for causes that won't be causes in another 20 years.

kentuck

(111,111 posts)
19. Why not declare victory and get the hell out??
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 03:08 PM
Jun 2015

We gave them their country back and without a lot of hostilities. We trained their soldiers. We gave them billions of dollars of weapons. They blew it.

There is nothing more we can do. Let them work it out. Obama was right the first time. He is wrong now.

kentuck

(111,111 posts)
29. Yes. I wrote it.
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 04:17 PM
Jun 2015

But I have never supported the war in Iraq, so I might be biased a bit?

Yes, we gave their country back to them... after about a million deaths and untold destruction.

What would be your solution? Should we stay there forever? Should we attempt to re-build in the middle of a civil war, also, probably brought about by the initial invasion and the inability of the Iraqi government in Baghdad to govern their country, after the Sunni Baathist Army of Saddam was scattered far and wide.
What would you do?

kentuck

(111,111 posts)
32. Who's the victim?
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 05:21 PM
Jun 2015

I think we are all victims, in one manner or other. Of course, it is the Iraqis that have physically suffered more than anyone.

I'm not sure our presence in their country is going to help anyone? But that is what I said in 2003...

delrem

(9,688 posts)
36. You've got to be joking!
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 08:49 PM
Jun 2015

No, Kentuck, the USA is not a victim of the US war on Iraq.
The USA is the perpetrator of the war crime.





kentuck

(111,111 posts)
41. Yes, the USA is a "victim" also...
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 09:46 AM
Jun 2015

We have suffered a lot from this blunder and will continue to suffer in the future, not just the families of those killed and wounded, but the psyche of our entire nation. We are still paying the price.

Mustellus

(328 posts)
21. with apologies to Sherri Lewis and Lambchop.....
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 03:18 PM
Jun 2015

This is the war that doesn't end
It just goes on and on my friend.
Some people started fighting it
not knowing what it was.
And they'll keep right on fighting it
forever, just because .....

This is the war that doesn't end....

repeat ad infinitum

 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
40. sun Tzu didn't know that war would eventually become a cash cow for the ruling class
Wed Jun 10, 2015, 10:18 PM
Jun 2015

Our perpetual war will end when the Bush family and their friends stop getting rich from it.

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