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Recursion

(56,582 posts)
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 10:23 PM Jun 2015

How would country of origin have gone better without NAFTA?

Can somebody blaming NAFTA give me something semi-coherent here?

In the actual history, Congress passes the law in 2002, Canada sues, the US appeals, and 13 years later Canada is allowed to raise tariffs to a lower level than they asked for. Congress gets scared of these tariffs and folds.

In a hypothetical world without NAFTA, Canada just raises the tariffs to pressure Congress immediately, and Congress folds.

How does anybody see the second outcome as better?

24 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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How would country of origin have gone better without NAFTA? (Original Post) Recursion Jun 2015 OP
I thought NAFTA went into effect in 1994. House of Roberts Jun 2015 #1
It did. Recursion Jun 2015 #2
Oh, and the backstory Recursion Jun 2015 #3
NAFTA was a corporate insider trade deal Joe Turner Jun 2015 #4
So, again, how would the country of origin labelling law have gone better without it? (nt) Recursion Jun 2015 #5
We never had a problem with country of origin labeling prior to NAFTA Joe Turner Jun 2015 #8
What? Sure we did. We did for decades Recursion Jun 2015 #9
You don't understand trade Joe Turner Jun 2015 #10
I see a country better off than it was 25 years ago. If you don't it's because of ideology Recursion Jun 2015 #11
That's complete nonsense. Joe Turner Jun 2015 #12
ahem Recursion Jun 2015 #13
Well that didn't take long Joe Turner Jun 2015 #16
Black income growth has exceeded white income growth over the past 30 years Recursion Jun 2015 #17
This may come as news to you Joe Turner Jun 2015 #21
+million. Poster just pushing cheap, tarriff-free propaganda Katashi_itto Jun 2015 #24
NAFTA had nothing to do with the Canadian challenge against 'COOL'. COOL was part of Smoot Hawley pampango Jun 2015 #20
It may please you to know... RobertEarl Jun 2015 #6
Why would that please me? I'm pro-labelling and I think the WTO got this one wrong Recursion Jun 2015 #7
Former Japanese minister of agriculture says TPP may prohibit COOL Art_from_Ark Jun 2015 #14
Well, if it goes farther than ARO that's a reason I'd be against TPP (nt) Recursion Jun 2015 #15
I think many people dislike trade pacts for what they haven't done bhikkhu Jun 2015 #18
Technological advances have little bearing Joe Turner Jun 2015 #22
Which would be plausible, if US manufacturing wasn't at an all-time high bhikkhu Jun 2015 #23
This message was self-deleted by its author Rex Jun 2015 #19

House of Roberts

(5,200 posts)
1. I thought NAFTA went into effect in 1994.
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 10:30 PM
Jun 2015

As far as this dispute with Canada, I don't recall the particulars. A link would be helpful.

 

Joe Turner

(930 posts)
4. NAFTA was a corporate insider trade deal
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 10:55 PM
Jun 2015

That resulted in 1 million net U.S. jobs losses, a staggering $181 billion U.S. trade deficit with NAFTA partners and served as a blueprint for other corporate trade deals that have eviscerated the middle class and destroyed over half our manufacturing. This is what happens when a government gets taken over by the corporate class.

 

Joe Turner

(930 posts)
8. We never had a problem with country of origin labeling prior to NAFTA
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 11:29 PM
Jun 2015

so I really don't know what you are driving at. I am surprised though by your nonchalant attitude about the harm NAFTA has caused this country. I guess it's no big deal to you.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
9. What? Sure we did. We did for decades
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 11:31 PM
Jun 2015

But we were immediately confronted with tariff threats every time. This is something US cattlemen have wanted for decades (though US packers have opposed it). After NAFTA and GATT we could finally produce some meat labeling requirements without an immediate tariff spike in retaliation.

 

Joe Turner

(930 posts)
10. You don't understand trade
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 11:47 PM
Jun 2015

When a country like America is running perennial trade deficits with every single country on earth it means we are importing way more of the their products than they are buying from us. That means when another country threatens tariffs with how they want our products labeled or any other trade dispute for that matter "we hold the cards", not them. When they talk about raising tariffs it is a bluff because they don't buy much from us anyway. But when we say, if you do that "we will raise tariffs on your products" you get their attention. This country has suffered from the worst sellout trade representatives going back more than 30 years because the corporate class wants it that way. You seemed lost in minutia. America has been on the losing side of a trade war for decades and the result is everywhere to see in America today.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
11. I see a country better off than it was 25 years ago. If you don't it's because of ideology
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 11:56 PM
Jun 2015

Every quintile is better off in 2015 than in 1993. Unemployment is lower. Discouraged worker rates are lower. Wages are up. Incomes are up. The bill of goods you're being sold that things are worse now than before is just false.

Politicians are very good at invoking nostalgic mostly-mythical golden ages in the past, but that doesn't mean you have to fall for it.

 

Joe Turner

(930 posts)
12. That's complete nonsense.
Fri Jun 12, 2015, 12:11 AM
Jun 2015

America's real standard of living has been on the decline for more than 25 years. You obviously don't travel much around the country or perhaps are too young to understand. Citing massaged statistics from think tanks that have a vested interest in corporate trade policies is pure propaganda. There was a time when a regular worker could support a family without having the spouse work, buy a home, put the kids through school, buy a car, take a family vacation, help put the kids through college, afford health care without going into massive debt. Do you think this describes the average worker today? That is REAL standard of living, not B/S propaganda to make people feel good while they are being robbed. And that was not some mythical golden age, it described America prior to 1980.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
13. ahem
Fri Jun 12, 2015, 12:14 AM
Jun 2015
There was a time when a white, male regular worker could support a family without having the spouse work

I fixed that for you

I'm talking about the country as a whole. White working class men have been treading water for 25 years, but there's a lot more to the country than that group.

The "massaged numbers" you're complaining about are the absolutely astounding gains minorities and single women have made in the US over that period.
 

Joe Turner

(930 posts)
16. Well that didn't take long
Fri Jun 12, 2015, 12:30 AM
Jun 2015

Mixing race with trade policies is last refuge I suppose. From what I see today our trade policies have absolutely devastated minorities while impacting white males to lesser extent. So, I really don't know what you are talking about. You need get out more and see what's going on in our cities and countryside. Maybe talk with real people. Might help ya.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
17. Black income growth has exceeded white income growth over the past 30 years
Fri Jun 12, 2015, 12:45 AM
Jun 2015

As has Hispanic income growth. Black and Hispanic incomes are still lower than white incomes by a good deal, but the gap has been closing, and this has caused significant resentment among working class whites, which gets exploited by politicians.

Similarly, world incomes are way, way up over that period (the past 30 years have seen the greatest reduction in world inequality, ever), and this has caused significant resentment among working class whites in industrialized nations, who are basically the only group that hasn't shared in this increase, which, again, gets exploited by politicians.

 

Joe Turner

(930 posts)
21. This may come as news to you
Fri Jun 12, 2015, 12:35 PM
Jun 2015

but Our elected officials are tasked to represent the interests of the American people, not the rest of the world. It is exactly that wealth transfer from the U.S. to other nations that has caused the standard of living in the U.S. to decline. Perhaps you don't care but most Americans do. #2, I don't know where you are getting your numbers on Black income growth but they certainly aren't tuned to young blacks today where unemployment ranges 25- 50%.
You obviously like selected stats from dubious sources.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
20. NAFTA had nothing to do with the Canadian challenge against 'COOL'. COOL was part of Smoot Hawley
Fri Jun 12, 2015, 07:10 AM
Jun 2015

in 1930 to restrict imports. It was signed by Herbert Hoover and has been amended several times since then.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Country_of_Origin_Labeling

"Under §304 of the Tariff Act of 1930 as amended (19 U.S.C. § 1304), every imported item must be conspicuously and indelibly marked in English to indicate to the “ultimate purchaser” its country of origin."

In 2009, the Canadian government launched a challenge to COOL at the World Trade Organization (WTO).

The challenge filed by Canada was not handled by a NAFTA panel at all. It was resolved at the WTO and would have been handled by the WTO without NAFTA.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
7. Why would that please me? I'm pro-labelling and I think the WTO got this one wrong
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 11:10 PM
Jun 2015

Though if TPP or TTIP has any addendums to GATT/ARO on origin labelling nobody's said anything about that.

It looks pretty clearly like NAFTA was a buffer against Canadian influence for the better part of a decade in this case, though.

Art_from_Ark

(27,247 posts)
14. Former Japanese minister of agriculture says TPP may prohibit COOL
Fri Jun 12, 2015, 12:20 AM
Jun 2015

It's just one of the less egregious aspects of TPP.

bhikkhu

(10,728 posts)
18. I think many people dislike trade pacts for what they haven't done
Fri Jun 12, 2015, 01:54 AM
Jun 2015

much more than for what they have done. For instance, most job losses in the past 100 years have been due to technological advances, new machines and automation that allows fewer people to do jobs that used to require many people. Trade pacts have had no effect.

Most trade pacts involve regulatory apparatus that allows disputes to be resolved. Disputes existed before trade pacts, but then the trade pacts get blamed for the resolutions, which are unlikely to have been handled better without regulatory apparatus...and so forth.

General malaise with the way things have happened flourishes best when it has an acronym to build a narrative around. Yet theoretical alternatives, paths not taken, are unlikely to have led to less general malaise.

 

Joe Turner

(930 posts)
22. Technological advances have little bearing
Fri Jun 12, 2015, 12:46 PM
Jun 2015

You are mixing causes up. America has been thrown out of scores of industries from consumer electronic to furniture and the surviving manufacturing industries have seen large market share declines. That has nothing to due with tecnological innovation which is both good and unavoidable. It has to do with whole sale offshoring of industrial capacity. And speaking of automation, America is an also ran to the likes of Japan and Germany.

bhikkhu

(10,728 posts)
23. Which would be plausible, if US manufacturing wasn't at an all-time high
Fri Jun 12, 2015, 11:54 PM
Jun 2015


Being thrown out of the toaster business has no net effect if we make microwaves instead, for example. US manufacturing is doing fine, and better since the recession as a percentage of GDP than before it.

Response to Recursion (Original post)

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