General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsDid you hate, fear or dislike gay people at one time?
Assuming you've gotten over it, what caused you to reexamine your beliefs?
When I was in high school, I made sure to make disparaging remarks against gays, mainly because I wanted to hide my own homosexuality.
I'm interested in compiling a few of the reasons or circumstances that helped people get over their fear/hate/dislike. Thoughts?
onecaliberal
(33,016 posts)It's their own business.
xfundy
(5,105 posts)Which is so mystifying. May I ask, are you a younger person?
onecaliberal
(33,016 posts)We are all people. Living, breathing, crying laughing, loving. We all bleed the same. We all hurt the same.
xfundy
(5,105 posts)I was hoping to find a common link between ex-haters that I could use to make more of them. I'm failing in that endeavor so far, but so glad to see so many tolerant people.
onecaliberal
(33,016 posts)One is 28 and the other 14. None of them are homophobic. I wasn't raised to hate or think differently of anyone because of who they are or what color they are, or who they love. My husband is the same. We have raised our children as compassionate, caring and tolerant people.
xfundy
(5,105 posts)I hope you say "no."
onecaliberal
(33,016 posts)Ex Lurker
(3,817 posts)Just going with the flow of my peers, but I honestly didn't give it much thought one way or the other. I didn't know anyone (that I knew of) who was gay, although of course some were, as I learned years later when they came out. Some it was a "yeah, that figures," and others it was a total surprise.
I continued on not giving it much thought for yearsafterward, and I guess I drifted from being casually homophobic to casually pro equality, again going with the flow without it ever being very high on my radar screen. Just being honest, here, since you asked.
I think what's made me more proactive recently is the birth of my nieces and nephews. No idea what their orientation is, they're still very young, but it occurred to me that if any of them were LGBT, I'd want them to have the same opportunities in life that anyone else has.
xfundy
(5,105 posts)But at least they'll have an aunt or uncle that isn't an asshole.
shraby
(21,946 posts)Agschmid
(28,749 posts)I got through it, but it wasn't easy.
xfundy
(5,105 posts)Agschmid
(28,749 posts)In Mass... everything is wicked
Did any of your friends when you were younger know it or figure it out?
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)In retrospect I hung out with very masculine girls (not sure where they all ended up) but it seems by association that some of us knew. Also I came out pretty early, I was out in 6th grade so people knew when I was pretty young.
It was really hard the first few years unfortunately I was "outed" by someone who I had told in confidence, they used it to get ahead socially and that was horrible.
xfundy
(5,105 posts)So I had to double-up on verbally attacking other gay guys.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Hating gay people and espousing anti-gay hate speech is a horrible thing for your parents and peers to do when you are 14 and confused as hell about it.
brooklynite
(95,070 posts)Seriously, as a liberal among conservatives and a atheist among Christians for most of my early years, I never felt the need to "conform".
xfundy
(5,105 posts)You were lucky.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)It was part of fitting in.
I don't know much about you, but if the moniker, "brooklynite', indicates that you are from New York originally, then as he said, you were lucky, because as a youngster who was gay in the middle of nowhere, it was always all about New York or San Francisco. That was, basically, IT for gay men. LA was debateably okay.
I've met so many gay men here in NYC who, like me, fled their places of origin, and state half-seriously that they'd rather DIE than return to those places. Obviously, I'm not a psychiatrist and so I don't delve into the why's with everyone who tells me that, but I intuitively know what they mean, and we typically chuckle about how grateful we are that we're here and not THERE, wherever there is.
brooklynite
(95,070 posts)Yes I'm from Brooklyn, but in my early years I was living in the ex-pat community in the Philippines. My best friends were the son of a Baptist missionary and the son of an Embassy official from the Nixon days. I did NOT fit in, but I was never willing to conform to the political and social sensibilities of the community.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)xfundy
(5,105 posts)I'd guess so.
cali
(114,904 posts)But my mother grew up in Europe, my dad's father was an artist and set designer and they hung with people like isherwood, auden, Huxley and Mann.
xfundy
(5,105 posts)Next to James Baldwin and Edmund White. What a great story you have. So were the people your parents knew relatively free to be themselves except in public?
cali
(114,904 posts)It was SoCal and this was a group of largely expats from England and Germany. My parents were the youngest people in that group. The center of the group was the woman I was named after (she was bi) who was a relative on my mother's side and an artist. That's how my parents came to know Chris Isherwood. I remember playing on the lawn at EMH's house up in the hills as the adults sat and drank and talked.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)EMH - do you mean Ernest Hemingway?
Oh, was your family part of that whole Moveable Feast bunch? (Great book, BTW.)
Don't answer if this is too personal, or if I'm prying.
cali
(114,904 posts)The initials of the woman I was named after. Not really the moveable feast crowd though there was overlap.
gratuitous
(82,849 posts)Maybe fear is accurate, as well. I think I started getting over it when a whole bunch of my best friends in high school and then in college came out as gay. This would have been in the 1970s into the early 1980s. I got to know my friends first as persons, then as gay persons, and it turned out that their being gay was just one more thing I knew about them. Knowledge and understanding replaced ignorance, and fear didn't stand a chance.
xfundy
(5,105 posts)Seems to be a common concern.
gratuitous
(82,849 posts)But that was pretty normal in my peer group. I don't recall being worried that a gay man would come on to me. It was a weird time to come of age, sexually. The women's liberation movement was moving from walk to run at that time, and many of the girls my age were getting used to the idea of sexual agency. Alan Alda and Phil Donahue, the quintessential sensitive guys, were personal role models. I had my share of incomplete passes, until someone I didn't much care for made an aggressive pass at me. That sort of turned me around, and I got a much fuller understanding of how my clumsy attempts were probably being perceived by the girls and women. In an odd way, it modeled the behavior I might need to turn down a sexual advance in a gentle way, regardless of whether the person making the advance was male or female.
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)xfundy
(5,105 posts)When I was growing up I heard how horrible it was every sunday and wednesday night.
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)High school in the late '70s and college in early '80s.
SU and WE night? Is that some sort of bar reference -- locals' night and ladies' night?
xfundy
(5,105 posts)Southern Batshit regimen. They served dinner on Wednesdays, it was good old southern lipids.
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)Can't help ya there. Was raised as a non-whacky Methodist just outside of DC. Of which I am thankful for everyday, especially as I get older.
xfundy
(5,105 posts)I am familiar with with DC/DELMARVA and have been to poodle beach.
Not familiar with Methodist teachings, but as they are constantly attacked by fundies, I guess they're alright.
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)MD, but lived in NOVA for over 20 years after college. How weird. Just thought of family vacations to Rehoboth back in the '70s, and none of us ever batted an eye. Quaint. Clean. Wonderful shops, restaurants and bars. And very gay.
Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)I mean, by comparison to some other denominations. I was raised Methodist, too, and although I don't attend church anymore, I always appreciated how nonjudgmental the Methodist church was, as a whole.
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)Unfortunately, I now live in NC, where we made the New York Times yet again:
North Carolina Allows Officials to Refuse to Perform Gay Marriages
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/12/us/north-carolina-allows-officials-to-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages.html?_r=0
I'd like to offer up a hearty *screw you* to the four Dems who voted with Rs to legalize discrimination:
http://www.bluenc.com/content/we-did-it
The Gang of Four:
Bring on the lawsuits. Or sort through the upcoming SCOTUS ruling. Something.
brewens
(13,682 posts)I did get over all that at a pretty young age. I was in high school in the late 70's. I think I was totally cool about it within five years or so.
One of my female beautician friends had a gay friend she worked with. Partying with them one night, she told me her friend said I had a nice ass! My only reaction was to say, "Damn! Why isn't the nice ass thing working with the women?" I never said so but I appreciated the compliment, guy or not.
It also didn't hurt that some time later, a real good friend of mine came out. Of a group of about 15 or so of us that I can think of offhand, only one guy disowned him. I was pretty impressed that about every one of us was pissed off at the asshole for the way he acted.
xfundy
(5,105 posts)instead of getting bowed up and want to kick some "fag's" ass.
brewens
(13,682 posts)be all pissed off about if you're straight?
xfundy
(5,105 posts)Which is kind of stupid, but little about gay-haters isn't.
Or maybe they want to show their wimmin they're butch. Same thing.
brewens
(13,682 posts)but...." It's like a disclaimer saying, "I'm not gay because that would be really bad, but I'm with you guys!"
If I'm really cool with all that, why should I give a shit if someone thinks I'm gay?
xfundy
(5,105 posts)I do take umbrage when some differentiate me as opposed to "normal people." WTF?
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)early on.
You know it was a gay disease, and working in health care I was one of the few people who went against the stream. In my mind my gay patients were just as much patients as my straight patients. My AIDS patients were people I had to fight for a few times though. It was hard to advocate for people who were indeed feared.
xfundy
(5,105 posts)Fallwell and Robertson went out of their way to blame the disease as "god's wrath," and Raygun said nada about it for seven years. Good on ya for treating the patients like people.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)xfundy
(5,105 posts)Did you move to a city? Did you know before you left that you were gay?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Just getting out of that culture did it. Even the 'liberals' there would tell really horrid homophobic jokes.
uppityperson
(115,681 posts)I moved away as soon as I could, from Fargo to NW.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)uppityperson
(115,681 posts)stage left
(2,967 posts)I've worked with several gay men over the years and most of them were very nice. When I was young I had another woman make a pass. I was so shy I was a little embarrassed, but I was flattered, too. She was very pretty.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)He had a really cool purple Dodge Charger. He taught me how to drive in it.
xfundy
(5,105 posts)Charger could be either old or new. I'm figuring the younger folks had less of an atmosphere of hatred/ignorance to deal with, but am finding out I could be wrong.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)My grandma was born in 1924
xfundy
(5,105 posts)but my mom was born the same year as your grandma. I bet that had something to do with my upbringing re: repression.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)xfundy
(5,105 posts)Which explains why I still have to deal with fundamentalist thoughts inside my own head. Parents/church taught me to be ashamed of my body. As you can probably imagine, that had (still does) a negative effect on my love life.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)My grandma was a hell raiser, but my mom went fundy nut for a while.
I was raised with a dear friend who is gay so I've always been sensitive to their plight.
xfundy
(5,105 posts)Or was s/he closeted?
madokie
(51,076 posts)Like me he is getting old and I guess he feels there is no advantage in coming out. We've talked about it some though. You have to realize we live in a extremely redneck part of the state.
I'm sad that he feels he can't come out, for whatever reason, and enjoy life to it fullest. I'm sure pretending one is something they aren't takes its toll on a person. I know that is true from this relationship I have with him. I don't want to come out for him so I must only talk in generalities just in case.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)My juvenile reaction to learning that some guys would grow up to like guys was pretty much just to shrug and think "Well, that leaves more women to go around" if I gave it a second thought at all.
I never understood the hostility or why it should bother me what other people did. I tended not to think well of people who had problems like that. Of course that kind of attitude gets the epithet thrown at you, I guess to get you on "their side", but more often than not my reaction would be "So what if I was?" I couldn't figure out how calling me something I wasn't was supposed to get me upset, or why it would bother me if I were.
I went through a "born again Christian" thing for a while as a teenager, but among the things that eventually convinced me I didn't belong was their obsession with it. Again, I just continued to find the hatred puzzling, and it still surprises me that there are otherwise grown adults who can't stand the thought that other people's business is up to them.
xfundy
(5,105 posts)When I was a kid, being a "N****R lover" was almost as bad, but being gay was even worse.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Taunting me was not a good course of action, though, because I could say very cruel things in return. I couldn't fight, but I had the second fastest 220 yard time in junior high.
More often than not, I would drop a line like "Oh, you're just jealous that your dad loves me and not you."
In retrospect, and I can think of two in particular, had parental issues, so that sort of thing was really much more mean spirited than macho chest thumping.
I had friends who were. It just didn't bother me. I also has a cousin who was out to everyone BUT his parents, and that was always a sad situation. When he was old enough to move out, he and his friend would stay with our family on visits. The first time I was maybe 11 or 12 and I was like "But where is Jim going to sleep? On the couch?"
(Brief interlude of smiles and glances around the dinner table...)
"Ohhhhh! Okay."
TlalocW
(15,394 posts)When you're young and stupid and living in a small Kansas farming community, you make the disparaging remarks, but I also remember being taken aback when a classmate said something about homosexuality is an abomination in just a very venomous voice and thinking what an asshole he was. At a ballgame, I was talking to someone who was telling me about one of the players on the field, and he slipped and called him good looking then backtracked, making embarrassed jokes about it, and I thought, "Well, the guy is good-looking from what I know about what girls my age are looking for. What's the deal?"
Then my freshman year in college, I worked as an office assistant in the foreign language department with a guy who was, I think, a junior. My gaydar is horrible so you can literally be completely "flaming" (if I may use that term), and it's going to go right over my head, but he was pretty theatrical... Literally. I think he was a theater major. Anyway, the school paper and he got together to run an article about homosexuality, wherein he officially came out. Later that week, I was at a party and was sitting on a large ottoman talking to people and realized he was seated on the other end next to me, and I thought to myself, "Huh. For the first time I know 100% that someone is gay, and he's sitting next to me. How does that make me feel about him?" I thought about it and decided, "Doesn't change my opinion about him. He's still an asshole, but I don't care about who he fucks/loves." This was in 1991 by the way.
Later on in the decade, I was a co-worker and friend with a guy who while heterosexual had a lot of gay friends - he sets off their gaydar and usually becomes friends with guys who hit on him after telling them, "Sorry, I'm straight." Once we went over to the house of one of his gay friends. He had just moved in, and when we arrived he hooked his arm in mine and led me around showing me everything. I thought nothing of it, but my friend remarked to me later how surprised he was at my (non)reaction because he admitted to me that he probably would have freaked or shaken loose. I told him that either his friend was comfortable being who he was with me, or he was comfortable enough with me to do it to me as a joke so either way, I was flattered. (And if he was doing it as a joke, no way was I going to let him "win."
TlalocW
TlalocW
(15,394 posts)That apparently some people thought my best friend in high school and I were gay and in a relationship because we tended not to go to parties, but we would do weird things like climb up on his roof or go out into the country and lay on the hood of a car, look up at the stars, and just talk, so when a classmate happened upon us, it looked kind of weird. I wasn't popular (in fact, I cultivated unpopularity because I couldn't stand most of my classmates), but my friend was very popular and very good looking - he was pretty much an Adonis because while we both lifted weights, he was just more genetically gifted I guess. But he didn't date much (although I often had to memorize phone numbers of girls we didn't know who would come up to him in a mall wanting to get to know him) because he also didn't care much for a lot of our classmates. He was just better at hiding it. In fact, he was the one that told me (after we had graduated) about our rep with some people, and we just laughed because we didn't care what anyone in our town thought about us.
TlalocW
xfundy
(5,105 posts)Thanks for the great input.
NanceGreggs
(27,821 posts)... who, although a Democrat, could be quite "conservative" in her thinking.
My mom started working in one of many aerospace-related industries in the early '60s. She and my dad had split, and she had to start a career in order to support herself and us kids.
Many of her coworkers were lesbians and gay men - and she quickly bonded with them, just as she did with many coworkers. They came to the house for BBQs and drink-'n'-gabs - just my "mom's friends", like all of her other friends.
It was never discussed - I was quite young at the time. My mom just assumed that as I got a bit older, I would understand that "Connie and Fran" were a couple, that Juan and Julio were "together".
And she was right - I did come to understand that. And it never struck me as odd in any way. They were just people - like all of my mom's other friends.
xfundy
(5,105 posts)but it sure wasn't for me.
Thanks for the input!
Grey
(1,581 posts)When I was a junior in highschool I used to hang out with a bunch of other kids that were aggressively homophobic. Fortunately I was never with them when they actually encountered a gay person so I was never a part of any violence. It is entirely possible that I said things that hurt gay people around me that I didn't know were gay I hope not but it is entirely possible.
For me the change was moving from Oklahoma to San Fransisco and being thrown into the middle of what at the time was one of the few places in a
America you could be openly gay. I remember very clearly seeing my first gay couple holding hands on the beach. It happened quite soon after the move and that was the beginning of the end of my fear and hatred for gay people.
Oddly enough there was a time later in my life where I got a lot of grief from people for being unafraid to hang out in gay bars with my gay friends. Such a long way and time from Oklahoma.
Funny how life works.
xfundy
(5,105 posts)So actually seeing gay people in the flesh was enough to show you that they're just people. Thanks for your input.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)It went much further than just seeing them though. I was unable to avoid them once I got to San Francisco.
The attitude there towards gays was much different in San Francisco they were not reviled like they were in Oklahoma . it was such a difference in attitude that it forced me to question my own feelings.
After that it was actually meeting outwardly gay people and realizing there was nothing to be afraid of that did it for me . I quickly realized that not only where they perfectly normal but that being around them had no effect on me whatsoever, I didn't turn gay just because I was around them or even when I was hit on by gay guys . in fact I found out it was quite the compliment with no ill effects whatsoever.
After figuring that out, the mystery and fear was gone, and at that point I started making real friends that were gay.
I will forever be grateful for that move it got me out of a state full of hate and judgement and opened my eyes to a lot of great friends over the years.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)day they were born. And very few honest answers.
Near everyone who responds will act as though the grew up on board of Star Trek The Next Generation.
As for me? I was accused, regularly, of being a dyke when I was in middle and high school. And I didn't protest against it because it was untrue. I protested against it because it was considered a bad thing to be.
xfundy
(5,105 posts)So far, I've figured that respondents grew up in an admirable environment very different from mine.
"Different" is always a bad thing to be among kids. But I have hope that many don't care if the difference is in orientation.
Thanks for your input!
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)You don't waste time hating on people you never run into. Hatred of 'others' is very much tied to wanting someone to scapegoat for bad things. If you never see 'others', it's hard to ascribe evil to them. I might have grown up in a more homophobic environment if there were any homosexuals around who were 'out'. So it's not so much being 'saintly' as simply having no real contact that we knew about. It's kind of like asking us if we grew up hating, fearing, or disliking penguins. We never really saw any, so why should we have any particular feelings toward them at all? While I'm sure I met and maybe even knew homosexuals when I was young, the first time I knew for sure I'd met any was in my sophomore year of college, by which time I was already considering myself a liberal, so it would have made no sense to start hating or fearing them at that point in time.
xfundy
(5,105 posts)from portraying us as boogeymen, especially in the last 30 years. I recall books in the house warning against us when I was a kid. I figured since I didn't fit the stereotypes (limp wrist, etc) that I wasn't one of "them" and would grow out of it, as the books geared toward kids always claimed.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)hand me downs from my older sister when she moved from reading sci-fi and fantasy on to romances. Duane had gay or bi protagonists, as well as entire cultures that were far more open to any orientation, so my written introduction to gay folks was positive, but as I said, I still never knew if I met any in real life til college, so I didn't spend much time thinking about them as a class of people with specific societal problems to overcome til my early 20s.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)On the internet, you're flawless, your kids are straight-A, insightful and enlightened, you grow perfect tomatoes, and no one knows you unashamedly watch honey Boo-Boo
Skittles
(153,321 posts)it's the absolute truth
romanic
(2,841 posts)you sure do cut to the chase. lol
But I do think some of the responses on here are genuine.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)AS I noted in my original comment, everyone in school casually used the word 'gay' as a substitute for saying something was lame. We just didn't really give it any thought as to what it really meant, or spend any time thinking about gay people.
sakabatou
(42,207 posts)My memory is hazy.
hunter
(38,354 posts)But we were taught from an early age "don't ask, don't tell," and that really was important for the safety of some friends and family.
Three of my grandparents were fully accepting, one was of the opinion it was a disorder, but not a sin. He's also the one who was upset I was marrying, in his words, "a Mexican girl" and he didn't attend our wedding. But he got over that.
Karia
(176 posts)I remember being cautioned not to gossip because my parents' friends might "lose their jobs...or worse."
JI7
(89,290 posts)Skittles
(153,321 posts)or brown people or black people or Jewish people, etc......that is the absolute truth
I am a boomer
xfundy
(5,105 posts)I was raised to be a redneck. It took at first, when I was in high school. I recall the KKK even had their flyers passed out in my school. But when I actually knew black guys and Jewish guys, (and asians and greeks, etc) they were just like me, and I learned to be less judgmental as a result.
My family was disappointed.
Skittles
(153,321 posts)so the minority kids I knew, their dads were enlisted like mine, so we were truly "equals" - although we were all suspicious of the officer's kids
I spent some time in England growing up, and gay folk were not nearly as demonized there as they were here.
I never knew any Jewish folk back then, but my parents didn't hate anyone so neither did I.
shanti
(21,675 posts)AF boomer brat, and yes, my NCO dad had coworkers of all kinds, black, jewish, asian, etc. us kids were raised to be no better than anyone else. being a military brat exposed us to many things most kids weren't, and i think i'm better for it.
Skittles
(153,321 posts)Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)and her husband absolutely detested Japanese people (his brother was killed at Pearl Harbor), but those were things that just made you squirm as a kid, in total embarrassment, when you visited them in the summer.
stage left
(2,967 posts)But I was raised to think of them as inferior to whites. I grew up in SC in the days of separate water fountains for blacks and whites. Separate water fountains, separate schools, separate seating areas in the theaters, separate everything. It was like something bad would happen to you if you came to close to black people, but I didn't know what it was that would happen. I think I began to feel that this thing just wasn't right when I saw photos of protesters being hit with fire hoses and attacked by dogs. By the time George Wallace stood in the doorway of the University of Alabama, I was pretty well convinced I didn't want to be on any side he or his kind was on. I married in !967 and was able to be with my Air Force husband at his postings. During that time i met and worked with people of color and hispanic people, some of the most fun people to work with ever. So I think I've evolved beyond my racist upbringing. I certainly hope I have.
But then, many decades ago when I was a young girl I lost a beloved aunt to suicide...because she couldn't face being gay but not being accepted by the world. I've grieved, I've missed her my whole life, and I grew up knowing that sexual orientation does not determine one's value as a human.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Not out of fear, hate, or the like, but just ebcause that was one of the insults we used to rib each other. No thought to it, because, well i can't claim to have been any sort of enlightened wunderkind. but once i did get around to thinking about it, I realized how fucking dumb it was - I knew people who wee gay, it didn't bother me at all, but i was using it as an insult?
Stupid Shit Teenagers Do.
But mainly as a tool to deflect from discovery.
cemaphonic
(4,138 posts)Middle school, with all of it's weird social rules, hormonal and sexual confusion (even for us straight folks), and insecurity is a pretty ripe breeding ground for lashing out on anyone that is seen as different. Plus, it was the 80s and homophobic jokes were all over the place in movies and comedy. By the time I hit high school though, I thought it was pretty immature, and by the time I finished high school, I had a couple of gay friends, and at least one teacher, so homophobic jokes and insults pissed me off at that point.
From a very early age I knew that I myself was different than most other people (or at least I felt that way). I think I reasoned early on how hypocritical it would be to make fun of people that were 'different'. This was in the late 70s.
Also, both my parents were liberal teachers their entire lives and placed a lot of value on embracing diversity and tolerance.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)My oldest friend from HS is gay, he was out in the 80's. Most of my other HS friends are also gay, though they came out in college.
I was in a Rocky Horror cast senior year, and being hetero was seen as kind of odd.
I lived 20 minutes away from San Francisco though, and it was considered gauche and stupid to be a homophobe.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)Because I was afraid that maybe I was gay and I grew up in a family and culture where being gay wasn't acceptable. When I was in college a guy wrote a really nice poem and shared it with me by reading it to me. He was gay. I was afraid that he was coming on to me and I was dismissive toward him and basically avoided him for the remainder of my time there.
How did this change? I became more comfortable with my own sexuality. I didn't feel that having a gay friend or having a guy share a poem or his feelings meant that he was coming on to me. I began minimizing in my mind the stupid slurs that people make like 'fag' or 'homo' or whatever. I also began seeing how those slurs are often advanced by guys who fear, like me, their own sexuality in some ways. It became kind of funny to me, as I began seeing the loudest homophobes as truly gay. My deepest advancement, I feel, developed years later, when a gay friend invited me to an annual gay art show.
At first I tried thinking up excuses not to go: I'm too busy with work, I could catch up on sleep on a Friday evening, all that kind of stuff. I had to confront within myself that the real reasons had to do with all that fear from the past, of being thought of as a homo or fag or effeminate or any of those awful slurs. I decided to go thinking it would just be a brief appearance there. I wound up having an fantastic wonderful time and stayed till the very end.
A few weeks later I talked with my gay buddy about it. Told him that I'm so glad that I've matured a bit as a person, and told about all my fears going into the party - that 'someone from the business community would see me there and think I was gay' all that kind of stuff. And how my fears were so silly and they were put to rest there at the art show. My buddy said 'Yeah, that's why we hold that event, it's for you!' That really made me laugh at myself and feel much more comfortable around others of different sexual orientation than myself.
I appreciate your thread.
xfundy
(5,105 posts)rufus dog
(8,419 posts)For sure as a Senior, that the guys making comments in gym were either like you or just assholes. The ones like you obviously figured out that by me not joining in that I had no interest in disparaging others. The assholes just continued to be assholes.
It is amazing what a well placed "whatever" or "so" can do to a seventeen year old who insists on picking on a kid.
As a teenager in the 60s, personal experiences were already leading me to the conclusion that sexual orientation is determined by genetic composition.
aint_no_life_nowhere
(21,925 posts)Last edited Fri Jun 12, 2015, 01:58 AM - Edit history (1)
(that I was aware of). I remember all the disparaging gay references high school boys would use to put down other boys even though the latter were probably not gay. I guess I had a fear of gays, of being seen with them (if I had known any) and of being suspected of being gay myself. Then in about 1973 I became the new guitarist in a band that backed a soul singer named Nancy Hyde. Unknown to me at the time was that Nancy's manager had booked her into a chain of large gay clubs which we toured. Nancy's sound was very popular in these clubs and she'd already developed a following. The first club we played in was one in San Francisco called the Cabaret Club, a three story building with a couple of restaurants, an enormous dance floor, and a theater with a stage where our group appeared. The first few nights I felt pretty uncomfortable and spent most of my time between sets in the dressing room. I was afraid that if I circulated in the club I might be thought of as gay and maybe get hit on. But to my own surprise it stopped bothering me. It really was like any other club except for the fact almost everyone was male...and there were hundreds and hundreds of people who went through that gigantic club. Nancy told us that she'd seen John Lennon in the audience one night. As a musician, that really freaked me out to think he was listening to my playing. The club owners housed our band in a large apartment in downtown San Francisco during out stay. Lots of gay people went in and out of that apartment to meet with the club owners, who lived in another part of the apartment. Everyone was extremely nice, polite, and attentive to our every need. It was a pleasant change for club owners to treat us musicians like human beings who mattered. Some of the gay men I saw were very effeminate, something I couldn't help noticing. Some showed nothing that indicated their sexual preference that I could discern. Anyway, it was in living for weeks with all the people of this gay club, at the other Cabaret club where we played in West Hollywood, and at others that caused me to stop caring about sexual preference. They were people like any other. Most of all, they were all uniformly kind, polite, and very nice to us musicians which left a lasting impression on me.
Response to xfundy (Original post)
LostOne4Ever This message was self-deleted by its author.
xfundy
(5,105 posts)This thread is moving so fast I haven't had time to thank everyone individually. I'm heartened by the responses and wish I'd been in one of those families that would have accepted rather than shaming me.
Thank you all.
akbacchus_BC
(5,704 posts)It makes a better world to be accepting rather than being judgemental.
olddots
(10,237 posts)human rights are for everyone period end of conversation .
xfundy
(5,105 posts)I've found no uproar around her sex change in the 50s. The thing that changed is politics, mostly in the last 20 or so years.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)No. Two at most, but not all three at once. Didn't have the energy.
gwheezie
(3,580 posts)Although my gay friends did change my parents minds. Which turned to be a good thing since one grandchild is gay, at least that we know of. We were talking about him one day and dad said I've thought he was gay since he was a little boy. My parents love him unconditionally. But I think me having so many gay friends helped them get over any stereotypes they held.
I consciously raised my daughter to know people of all kinds of backgrounds, so literally from birth she has strong adult gay folks in her life. In fact she married a great guy and credits our friend Jack as an example of what a good man is, I was a single parent and jack helped raise her.
calimary
(81,612 posts)I remember meeting a kid who soon became a good friend - he was gay, we were both 16. He was just fun to hang with, yak on the phone with, friendly, razor-sharp sense of humor, and even at that young age a gay activist - he worked with AmFAR. By the time I started developing opinions about this stuff, I had too many friends and colleagues and neighbors who were gay even to think it was that big a deal anymore.
As far as hate, fear, or dislike, no. Nothing like that ever came up.
riversedge
(70,482 posts)to 'know' of gay people. I saw your post a while ago and have been thinking about your question. Perhaps I wondered about them but really can not recall. Guess it was not a big deal to me.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)He came out my sophomore year of college, and actually became a decent guy. I'd always thought he was a bit of an ass, mean to his girlfriends, and so it made sense. He simply wasn't happy being in relationships with women. He became a lot happier with his life after he stopped dating women and started dating guys, and a lot nicer in general when he wasn't being miserable living a lie. I went with him to the campus LGBT meetings off and on in support, and a few of the parties (and damn did that group throw good parties.)
DemocraticWing
(1,290 posts)Somewhat similar to your experience, I just wanted to hide the feelings I had. I was hoping my "problem" would just go away, but eventually I realized it never would.
xfundy
(5,105 posts)That was hard for me, I imagine for you as well. I convinced myself there was probably a "brotherhood" or something that would accept me as-is. Boy, was I wrong. They''re as vapid as anyone else.
DemocraticWing
(1,290 posts)It's helped that my family is very accepting. I'm fortunate enough to have very liberal parents and relatives, and I can supplement that with friends.
Too many people lack that luxury.
SamKnause
(13,114 posts)I have been approached on two occasions by gay ladies.
I thanked them for the compliment and their interest and explained I was straight.
We remained friends.
It did not effect our friendships in any way.
My best friend is a gay man.
I did not know any gay people when I attended school.
I did not know anyone in school who made fun of gay people.
I am a 61 year old female.
Hope that helps.
Ghost in the Machine
(14,912 posts)a "homo" or a "fag". I never really thought of it in terms of homophobia, as a 15 - 16 year old mind back then didn't really think about things like that. I don't even think I ever heard the word "homophobic" or "homophobia" until I was in my late 30's, and still didn't quite grasp it due to thinking of "phobia" as fear and I wasn't afraid of gay people. I had gay and lesbian friends and never thought of them as anything other than normal people. I used to tell a couple of gay guys "you swing your way and I'll swing mine, just don't swing your thing at me and we'll be fine". They actually got a good laugh out of that.
Funny story here... my ex brother-in-law had gotten remarried, and he bugged his wife for about 3 years to do a 3-way with another girl. Knowing him, I know he wanted it more for himself just to be able to be with another woman without feeling guilty or like he was cheating. After a couple of times, his wife decided she liked women better and left him for another woman! That sure backfired on him!! They were still married, and remained friends after that. When I first moved back to TN, I rented a basement apartment from him, as he only lived less than a mile from where I had gone into business with my uncle in a flooring shop. We sold and installed ceramic tile, marble tile, carpet and hardwood floors. "Becca" used to come over every morning and take my kids to school along with the kids she was watching. She was staying with another single father about 2 blocks from where we lived and was basically a live-in babysitter and house keeper. She also picked my kids up from school and watched them until I got off work. She would never allow me to pay her any money for watching my kids. Instead, since I didn't drink, I had to be her designated driver every Friday or Saturday night and drive her to a gay bar in Chattanooga where they had Drag Queen competitions.
I was kind of nervous at first, thinking "what if someone tries to hit on me?" I mentioned it to her and her reply was "you'll be with me, no one will think you are gay anyways, you don't set off any "gaydars"." I was 39 at the time, and that was the first time I had heard that term! We used to sit with a group of her friends all the time and there was this one guy I'll just call "Jim", who was a very nice guy, kind of quite and reserved, not too effeminate and very intelligent. I used to talk to him all the time because I enjoyed the intelligent conversations. After several weeks of going, and "Jim" getting to know me better, he started asking me "are you *sure* you're not gay?" I would always tell him "yes, I am 100% sure that I am straight."
One night, we picked up one of her friends who also didn't drink, and I decided to try their Long Island Iced Tea because I had seen them so much and everyone raved about how good they were. I bought a whole pitcher and shared a few with "Jim". He asked me again "are you *sure* you're not gay?" I was feeling pretty good because it was the first time I had touched any alcohol in 7 years. I looked at "Jim" and said "yes I am sure, but you know what? *if* I was gay, I would want someone like you. You are a very smart man, always a gentleman and you aren't bad looking at all!!" He got the biggest smile on his face and said "well thank you!". I don't mind saying that I shocked at myself by even saying that to him, but I wasn't ashamed of saying it and was glad that it made him feel good. I've known most of my life that being gay isn't a choice, it's just how you are born. You can't help who you are attracted to, it's a natural instinct, just like breathing. I didn't *choose* to be straight either, I'm just attracted to women. I think a person should be able to love whoever they are attracted to, and should be able to marry the person they love, without any persecution or bias. It's a shame that people feel like they have to hide who they really are and try to be someone else. I have been "ME" for 52 years and don't know how to be anyone else. I have undergone some pretty radical changes in my life, but I've always been "ME".
Peace,
Ghost
xfundy
(5,105 posts)Just kidding. Thanks for your input.
mvd
(65,187 posts)never felt anything other than GLBT people should have equal rights. Hate often has to be taught.
undeterred
(34,658 posts)That was when I used a religious interpretation for everything.
The thing that made me change was getting to know real people who were gay. People who were astonishingly patient and kind with someone who didn't get it. Being confronted with real human beings enables you to drop the stereotypes you have learned. Seeing gay couples in love and raising children made me realize that gay people are just people. Listening to gay people helped me understand. I realized I was homophobic and wanted to change. I opened my eyes.
I credit the gays I have known with extraordinary patience in dealing with the rest of us.
If your religion makes you unethical - makes you hateful, racist, or homophobic - then your beliefs have to change. I was never extreme, but I had some wrong thinking.
xfundy
(5,105 posts)I'm gay, but I don't understand the whole Trans thing. It's not my place to understand or to hold someone else to a standard I don't adhere to. It just is, and if someone experiences it, my understanding or not is of no consequence. I'm just glad Caitlin had a chance to be herself. Which is mildly off topic, but still.
PeteSelman
(1,508 posts)Racism and homophobia were very casual in the 70's in inner city Philadelphia. Hell, it still is. In my teens I might have been compared with the protagonist from American History X, except with long hair.
As I got older, life's experience taught me that all that shit was wrong and that there were really only two kinds of people. Cool people and assholes. Racists and homophobes fit into the asshole catagory. Mean people are also assholes.
I resolved to not be an asshole and I became a liberal. That was always my true nature. I mostly said and did all the shit that I did for shock value and acceptance. I wish I had known better. But you only get experience with experience, you know?
CBGLuthier
(12,723 posts)I am 53 years old and starting around the age of 12 or so I was called the common vulgarities associated with gay men. Oddly enough, I am not gay, just odd, so somehow I grew up not having that prejudice.
patricia92243
(12,607 posts)are born that way - not a "choice." Gay people actually love each other - it is not just all about sex. These are real people with real feelings.
Like 99% of people, I was woefully ignorant about such matters until the internet educated us all.
Prism
(5,815 posts)When the LGBT community went after the Obama administration in the first term.
Now that we're all chill, this never happened.
It never happened.
Everyone was awesome to gay people always.
That's our official story, and no one shall say otherwise.
I just roll my eyes.
xfundy
(5,105 posts)I know that in Obama's first term he didn't much support us for marriage, like all other politicians, but he supposedly evolved.
On the other hand, he should have stood up for what's right.
bananas
(27,509 posts)http://firedoglake.com/2009/05/04/democratic-underground-purging-uppity-gay-people/
http://www.oldelmtree.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=48
Posting a Seven
On democraticunderground.com, during the summer of 2009, Seven Gay posters were banned within a 24 hour period for the crime of disagreeing with Obama administration policies. One member (after the original 7 were banned) got banned for just posting the number 7. This time has been called the Great Gay Purge of 2009. As a result, at least 23 long time members were banned from the site.
Posting a Seven is posting something deliberately to be banned from a message board.
"I don't blame you for not posting a seven, since you have a huge target on your back.
by KitchenWitch August 25, 2010
Mon Mar-14-11 07:19 AM
skinner is giving amnesty to any DUers banned during the gay purge
Note: There are other topics where similar abuses have occurred.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)I never knew about that history here.
To the seven or eight or whoever stood up for gay rights here - thank you!
Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)Frankly, I didn't even realize there was such a thing as "gay" until I was an adult, and by that time I was living in San Francisco where gay people were known as "people." When I was a teenager in Texas in the early '60s, my friends never talked about such things and I never really thought about it one way or the other. I am basically a hetero female, but I am "experienced."
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Maybe I'm just so heterosexual that I don't care and never did. What people do with regard to sex is their business.
I had a "boyfriend" and a would-be suitor in the third grade already. So . . . . maybe my own sexual and gender orientation was just so clear that I didn't care. I knew lesbians, especially in college because I went to a music school. I liked pretty much everybody regardless of sexual orientation or gender identification and always have. It's just not an issue for me.
romanic
(2,841 posts)hit me hard. I too was like that in a way. I always knew I was gay but I hurled out "faggot" casually just to get any accusing eyes off of me. I was ashamed in the 9th and 10th grade and even made up an excuse to get out of gym class so I wouldn't be in that awkward situation in the locker room. By the time I became a senior, I was slowly getting out of the closet to family and by college I was out in the open. High school (and middle school) was hell on Earth for me, not only because of my shame but my desire to fit in.
Now a days, I don't give a fuck what anyone thinks about my homosexuality. I'm happy and no one can take that away from me.
Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)Then I read the Bible, and I understood that those who preached against gays had not done the same.
Also, my own family was so accepting of it that I finally gave in and accepted myself.
B Calm
(28,762 posts)Brickbat
(19,339 posts)College helped. Making GLBT friends helped. I try to be an ally.
Vinca
(50,342 posts)I've known gay people for as long as I can remember, but I truly never gave any consideration to it. Someone's sexual orientation makes zero difference in my life one way or the other. And it's none of my business, just as my heterosexuality is none of theirs.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)Although not too much as I had a close gay friend in high school. And then a very close cousin came out and I lost what discomfort I had before that. Still, it was the 1980s and on the whole, society (and I was a part of that) was not supportive.
Oddly, my discomfort seemed to be limited to gay kids. I had a couple of teachers who were openly gay (at least my teacher parents knew they were gay and I knew as well - not sure if other kids knew) and I don't remember any discomfort around them, just kids. It might have been partly just a discomfort with youthful sexuality or something. I was a late bloomer so maybe it was more other kids being sexual at all than specifically gay.
I think a lot of people get past this because people they love and care for are gay. And I think part of why homosexuality is so much more accepted now than it was in the 80s is because so many more gay people are open about their sexuality, so most people do have someone they love whom they know is gay.
I hope as transgender people come out of the closet more and more that the same happens for them. I have several transgender people in my life and I know how difficult things can be for them.
ProfessorGAC
(65,466 posts)What a waste of energy it would be to hate or fear because of a person's choice with whom to have sex.
Never cared about that. If they're happy, it's no skin off my nose.
MoonRiver
(36,926 posts)TexasProgresive
(12,165 posts)My high school years I lived in a neighborhood that was a combination of elderly people and a kind of artsy crowd. I knew about gay people but I wasn't aware that I knew any and one was a great friend. He was fighting admitting he was homosexual - you know the shtick - dating girls, making out and maybe a little groping. He came out around our junior year of college. He lives in Australia now.
I can understand his fear at coming to terms with his homosexuality. Boys I went to high school with would brag about going to Westheimer (in Houston, TX) and "roll queers". For those who don't know what that means they would assault them and take their money. The men would fear reporting it to the police because they would get worst treatment from them, plus jail time. This was prior to the S.C. striking down the Texas anti-sodomy law.
xfundy
(5,105 posts)Some things haven't changed, unfortunately.
Thanks for your contribution! My eyes are opening onto a different world than the judgmental one I grew up in.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)Or to feel that doing so might be pointless. I got robbed in college, police were useless. Had break-in attempts at my current home, police were useless. And police all over the country are shooting too many dogs at people's homes for me to be that comfortable with calling them out unless I've got my dogs next door at my parents when they show up.
TexasProgresive
(12,165 posts)"We are finally in a post-hate society" (he said with a wry smile)
This illustration may seem off-topic but here goes. Do you remember the winter XIV Olympic Winter Games in Sarajevo, Yugoslavia 1984? Sarajevo has a beautiful history of cultural and religious diversity with Muslims, Orthodox, Jews and Catholics living and being friends side be side. This went on for centuries. After WW II Yugoslovia was created under the strong man Tito.
When Tito was gone Serbia started flexing its muscles and the lovely city of Sarajevo became a battle ground where Serbs killed Croats, Croats killed Serbs and everybody killed Bosnian Muslims. These were neighbors and friends who suddenly turned on each other in a rage that caused the streets to run red mixing the blood of all the victims.
My point is that tolerance of those who are different is sometimes only skin deep. I worry for all people with a history of intolerance. I pray, "Never again!"
AngryOldDem
(14,061 posts)bemildred
(90,061 posts)You are supposed to like girls, right, but I didn't have any inculcated attitude about gays at all, I don't think anybody ever tried to talk to me about it, it was taboo, they were worried I'd be jerking off and get hair on my palms and everybody would know.
But I knew it was taboo, from the conversation of my peers who were much taken with the subject and would use it as a pejorative (I'm sure you know what I mean.) But it was also clear they had no idea what they were talking about, the ones that were talking.
What started me on the road to reform was a friend I had back then who was straight but had a gay friend, who (Gasp!) he allowed to ride behind him on his motorcycle. And a gay salesman who gave me a ride at 3:00 AM in Oxnard when i was 18 and wanted to get friendly but took my "I'm sorry, I don't feel that way" kindly and took me home anyway. And a gay lawyer with a butch boyfriend who was a neighbor and a real mensch, a great guy. And then I read some gay authors like Rechy, he particularly affected me. And then after a while it sinks in and you realize it's just irrelevant to the question of whether you should hang out with people or like them.
But I think the changes in social attitudes that emanated from the 60s has a lot to do with it too, it's a lot safer these days to have opinions about gender, and not just for LGBT people. So I don't take a lot of credit for it.
BlueJazz
(25,348 posts)...on the subject. I was pretty much "on the fence" even at a young age. You hear a lot of disparaging remarks but something inside still doesn't agree with what's being said. As I got a little older, I came to realize that it was just not that big a deal. I also came to the conclusion that it was too much trouble trying to figure out who to be nice to or not...so I'm just nice to everyone.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)when I was in grade school 'gay' was a general term used to indicate something that was considered lame, and I probably used it along with anyone else. We didn't really think about homosexuals when using it, though.
TexasBushwhacker
(20,257 posts)that the milk cartons at lunchtime had "homo" printed on them. I'm 58 and grew up in a pretty progressive home. I would have gotten in more trouble for saying the N-word than the F-word. We went to a Unitarian church, and when I was in 7th grade they had a sex education course. Yup, fact based sex education at church in 1970! They covered homosexuality briefly in a non-judgemental way.
I was in the junior choir and our choir director seemed kind of different from the other men at church. It didn't bother me and at 12, I didn't have much understanding of homosexuality having never been around someone who was out and proud. Many years later, in 1997, my mother and I were watching the evening news. They were talking about the Heavens Gate cult and their leader, Herff Applewhite. We looked at each other and said "Herff Applewhite? OMG, HERFF APPLEWHITE!" Herff had been that choir director that I thought was a little different.
So I was 40 in 1997 and asked my mother if he was gay. She said "OMG, he was flaming!" So that was my earliest memory of a gay person, in a round about way. My uncle's best friend was gay, although closeted for many years.
xfundy
(5,105 posts)What an amazing story. Applewhite set off my gaydar, too, and as I understand it they all castrated themselves before tying on their stylish Nikes and covering themselves with the purple scarves. Probably partially, at least, due to the persecution gay people went through up to that time.
Thanks for the amazing input!
TexasBushwhacker
(20,257 posts)It's his middle name. He met his partner, Bonnie Nettles, at our church. She left her family, including 2 special needs sons, to join him on their spiritual quest. She went by Ti and he went by Do (as in Do Ray Me ...).
I followed a True Crime newsgroup at the time and posted about it. I was contacted from someone at NBC! She was just looking for as much background as possible.
I told her "Not that it really matters, but he was gay. She said "He was gay !!!!" I don't think the castrations of Herff and the other males had been reported. It turned out that he was raised in a religious home and had always been conflicted about his homosexuality. He did briefly live as an openly gay man for a while and even lived in the "gay" part of town (Montrose).
xfundy
(5,105 posts)The castration bit was probably an effort to remove sexuality entirely. YUK.
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)Although at the time my Grandmother quipped it was more of adoption. Which, looking back, was actually true.
Living with G. and C. was the first time I lived with people who were interested in what I was interested in, who understood me, who valued me. It was the first time I felt like I belonged.
*** I knew they were a gay couple. We married for legal reasons that are increasingly no longer necessary in the USA.
xfundy
(5,105 posts)I hope since then you've found someone who valued you and could satisfy you sexually, if that's what you want/need.
Thanks for the input!
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)a reason which is increasingly no longer necessary in the USA.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Also interesting how most of us gay folks are willing to admit we had some internalized homophobia at some point.
I see the motivation of the thread... I also wonder if everyone is really being up front about their real feelings it's a hard thing to admit.
xfundy
(5,105 posts)I think the internalized homophobia never really goes away but must be fought against, just like the racism I was taught. It's a battle that's gotten easier over the years but it's still always there.
Thanks for your thoughts!
underpants
(183,070 posts)I wasn't sure what to make of him but I knew he was ....um.... unique in some way.
xfundy
(5,105 posts)there's no way Queen is gay! F*gs can't rock like that.
Person 2713
(3,263 posts)couple. My cousins best friend growing up all through youth was gay , he is not and at 50 with two kids and wife I am guessing not working through confusion. His friend was gay at 12 and he was straight at 12 end of that labeling so continued to be friends and they still keep in contact
Don't get me wrong I know the hate everywhere is out there and hope it will change but when I look at racism misogyny etc. I just don't know.
unblock
(52,515 posts)vinegar is not for me, but why on earth should i be bothered if others enjoy it?
i've always been baffled why other peoples' sexual preference isn't seen similarly.
hating gays, discriminating against them in the workplace, denying them marriage, and being violent against them makes about as much sense to me as doing the same things to vinegar eaters.
it just makes no sense whatsoever.
xfundy
(5,105 posts)just kidding. Thanks for your input and rational thinking!
qwlauren35
(6,154 posts)There have been gay people in my family for my entire life and I was always taught to accept them. So I did. When my great uncle died, his partner was given complete respect. And that was 40 years ago.
My mom (89) had an unpleasant incident when she was young and never got over her aversion to lesbians. When she found out that one of her friends was a lesbian, I had to get very stern with her. Eventually, she invited the woman and her partner over for dinner. I was very proud of her. But I can't get her to accept same-sex marriage.
I think it's how you're brought up, and changing what you've been taught is very hard. Please don't beat yourself up over the paradigm shift you have to experience to go against what you're taught.
There are some black people who never learn to stop hating themselves because we are surrounded with hatred. And the suicide rate in the LGBTQ community is frighteningly high. Learning to love yourself when you are surrounded with hatred takes great courage. I wish you all the best.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I have edited the post after reading through and realized that when I was in elementary school, the word "fag" was tossed around constantly. Being the dummy I was, instead of asking my parents, I looked it up in the dictionary and was told that it was a British word for cigarette. So then I was TRULY confused. Why would you call someone a cigarette. Eventually, I found out that it meant "gay" which I still didn't understand because I didn't understand sexuality. When people were "couples", I knew about love, but not sex. That came MUCH later, and it wasn't until high school that I could imagine that people actually LIKED sex! I remember that there were homophobic jokes, and I may have gone along with them out of ignorance, but I also remember seeing La Cage aux Folles, and getting the message. Sometimes men loved men. And it didn't go over well with everyone.
So, that's some more. Again, I am sorry for what you went through because it must have hurt deep.
xfundy
(5,105 posts)It's amazing how different my upbringing was from so many here -- and my parents thought it would make sure the kids would turn out "holy" and not, you know, gay like me.
Thanks for expressing your wisdom in this thread.
qwlauren35
(6,154 posts)it may be more insightful.
I still feel great sadness for your experience. I can't imagine how hard it must be to go through what you did.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)most people knew gay people, but it wasn't talked about. Everyone knew my cousin was a lesbian, but NO ONE talked about it. She was loved and welcome, and so was her partner.
I definitely lived in a "don't ask," don't tell" culture.
Whiskeytide
(4,463 posts)... "the gay", but my friends and I used homophobic slurs often. I don't recall ever directing it at someone I knew or suspected was actually gay, but I may have. We were teenaged assholes, and "fag" was probably our most commonly used put down.
When I started college, I worked in a campus bookstore. A co-worker had come out to his wife late - he was mid 30s I think - and had returned to school to get his Masters. He was a pretty cool guy, and we became friends. I didn't understand homosexuality since I was straight, so I asked him a lot of questions, and we talked about it quite a bit. I learned a lot about people in general from him. Eventually - in my eyes - he stopped being "this queer guy I work with", morphed into "this guy I work with who happens to be gay", and then into just "Bill".
I think it also helped me that another co-worker was a total asshole to the guy, and verbally berated him on a daily basis. I was able to watch the cruelty and ignorance of homophobia play out right in front of me, and decided I didn't want to be like that. It wasn't an overnight transformation, not a sudden epiphany kind of thing. It took a while. But I look back on it now - 35 years ago - as an incredibly influential experience.
I didn't get interested in politics until some years later, but I credit those couple of years - and Bill - with bending me toward the progressive on LGBT issues.
Great question. Thanks for the post.
xfundy
(5,105 posts)I'm hearing all kinds of acceptance I never knew existed way back when.
Whiskeytide
(4,463 posts)... those who are intolerant are just louder and more noticable. I suspect (hope) that for every loud mouthed, bigoted asshole you might have run across back in the day, there were 10 people who quietly thought "that other guy's an asshole" to themselves.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)The wrong people get all of the attention.
For every kid that gave you a hard time when you were young, there were a dozen others who didn't know, didn't care, and didn't do it.
Bradical79
(4,490 posts)I was casualy homophobic as a young teen, though pretty ignorant of actual homosexual issues. It came down to an odd combination of thinking homosexual behavior was gross, but being on the fence as to how I should feel about that in regards to rights. Eventually I ended up going to church with a friend and my anti-gay stance became more defined as a weird hybrid of what the Bible and church had taught me, and the empathy I felt after seeing how homosexuals were treated.
Trying to make biblical teachings on sex, Jesus's teaching of the golden rule and judgement, what I'd learned of the constitution, and my own empathy all work together as a cohesive whole with this book I believed was holy leads to some strange conclusions. By the time I was in my early 20's I think I ended up with some kind of tenuous balance:
1. Felt it was an issue for the stares to decide, and supported civil unions myself (marriage was strictly a religious thing in my mind) since our constitution offered freedom of religion.
2. Marriage was only referred to as being between a man and woman as far as I could tell, and sexual activity outside of marriage was still considered a sin. Since homosexuals could not get married I felt it was wrong.
3. I also recognized being homosexual did not seem to be a concious choice, but God was all powerful, so I was one of those people who thought you could "pray the gay away". The idea of it being "gross" gradually went away and was replaced with sympathy. I also stopped feeling comfortable at church with my peers because of the casual ridicule of gay people among other things (like strong support for Bush for example). Leading up to this time awful words like "fag" and using "gay" to describe something bad or stupid were dropped from my everyday vocabulary.
Not entirely sure when I dropped all of that, but at some point in my late 20's after a lot of reading and studying in school (and independantly), I became more liberal before I dropped religion entirely.
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)I only met him a couple of times (this was my mom's brother) and he seemed pretty cool. After he died I felt bad that I never got to know him very well (this wasn't my choice, but my mom's). He came and stayed with us when I was around 16. One of the things i remember is my mom talking to me about being gay and very forcefully and asking me if I was. It was very unpleasant and honestly I have no idea why. That probably did have an effect on how I looked at things at least until I was a young adult.
RobinA
(9,915 posts)about it.
I'm 57. My parents were professional friends with several men who were gay way back in the day and they did not make an issue of it either way. Probably because they knew, but the guys weren't officially out as it probably would have hurt them professionaly back in the '60's. My grandfather's brother was also gay, and again, it was open knowledge among the "grown-ups," but he was supported and as far as I can tell it was just a fact of life.
In college in the '70's I was annoyed by some lesbians who recruited by telling girls that life as a lesbian was so much more drama-free than life with men. No broken hearts, etc. This annoyed me because these girls were major drama queens (hypocrites) with chairs thrown out windows, fist fights, screaming in dorm hallways, etc. They tried to recruit my friend and she ended up with a broken arm and broken glasses. So much for less drama. My friend they were recruiting went to one of their parties one time and invited me to come along. I went out of curiosity and threw the whole place for a loop. What was I doing there, blah, blah, blah. Not too much tolerance there. They did have better beer than your average frat party and the music was good, but no cute guys to stare at.
After college I went into retail, where gay is a dime a dozen. I gotta say that the NYC retail scene in the '80's was a bit over the top for me, but that was more a personal taste thing. I think the only negative judgement I ever think concerning gay is, "Jeez, can we turn it down a bit?" when in the presence of someone who is really putting on the flamboyance. But then, I think that about anyone who's really in-your-face with their personality.
So fear, hate, dislike, no. To me it was just never that big a deal, although I do understand why it's a big deal to the actual gay individual. I should add that I am not a theist, so I never learned to connect sex with morality except when it involves hurting other people.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)And when I did it struck me that they were some of my favorite adults.
leftyladyfrommo
(18,874 posts)I've always liked gay guys.
Except for my roommates ex but it had nothing to do with being gay. He was just a jerk.
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)Though Fox turned dad into a frightened racist at the end of his life, he raised me well, and ethnic and other slurs were verboten. I also grew up in a diverse community and had a diverse set of friends, classmates, teammates, etc.
The only subculture I dislike is conservatives
Paladin
(28,290 posts)Whatever anti-gay prejudices I might have had were thankfully prevented by a decent upbringing and some life-long gay friends and family members.
treestar
(82,383 posts)I think my parents, schools, religion managed to hide it from me. So I was quite older by the time I knew there was such a thing. We had sex ed in 10th grade, no inclusion of the matter there. This was the 70s, so still back in the dark ages - at least, in the school district where I was. Heavily Catholic, might have had its effect.
Throd
(7,208 posts)hamsterjill
(15,224 posts)I grew up in a small Texas redneck town and gays were definitely looked up on as "weird". I'm certain that I was shaped by that atmosphere. I'm in my fifties now, so that will give you a context as to the time frame.
It was not until I moved away and actually met and became great friends with a gay couple that I examined my thinking and changed my thinking.
I think we are all shaped by our life experiences. Anyone who says differently is a fool. But I also believe that we have the ability to open our minds and understand things, and see things differently. I'm glad that I did.
For many years now, I can honestly say that I have absolutely NO issue with anyone living his/her life the way that he/she deems fit. We all go around this life only once and we each need the freedom to live to our fullest potential and seek the most happiness.
evirus
(852 posts)Needless to say I can't help but find homophobia absurd
xfundy
(5,105 posts)Thanks for your thoughts & input.
dorkzilla
(5,141 posts)till I was in my mid teens. I was a tomboy and when I got to be about 12-13, a punk so I always sported a funky short haircut (usually died bright pink). Little did I realize that everyone assumed I was a lesbian, which I had ZERO idea of what it meant when someone first called me that at age 13. The whole school thought I was. I am most decidedly, tragically heterosexual (thrice married and promiscuous as all hell when I was younger), and I have a LOT of gay friends. The epithet of queer means as little to me now as it did then although I do know it it intended to hurt and label the target as other or different.
I know from friends who have attended HS reunions (were all in our late 40s/early 50s now) that there are still many out there who think I am gay, but I dont care. I actually I find it kind of funny that anyone would care in this day and age - we are from suburban NYC, not the deep south. It doesnt matter to me, and if people want to lump me into a group with those same wonderful gay friends I have then I am honored to join their ranks.
Edited to add - when I was a NYC club kid back in the early 80s AIDS was in full swing and it was blamed entirely on gay men. I had, and still have, a lot of gay male friends I met whilst on the club scene, some of whom were HIV positive. I still loved the hell out of them naturally and I remember people avoiding me because - ready for this? - I HUGGED AND KISSED MY GAY MALE FRIENDS. I was told quite a few times that I would catch it from them. Holy shit were people fucking stupid and I think homophobia was at an all-time high at that point.
xfundy
(5,105 posts)Not AIDS, but teh gay. When I was in college Jerry Farthole was blaming AIDS on "god's retribution for the homosexuals." I was sure I had it, as I still hadn't cleared my mind of the religious self-hatred I was taught-- even though I'd never done anything that would have exposed me to it. AT the time, the gov't health materials didn't say exactly how it was spread, thanks in large part to bigot Jesse Helms.
Thanks for your input!
dorkzilla
(5,141 posts)Im glad youre out, and I am sure that you know you are as perfect and wonderful as anyone on the planet. I can only imagine what it must feel like to deny who you are in your heart.
Just be glad you couldnt catch the real disease fundies have - hatred.
Avalux
(35,015 posts)We were in college, and he was a great guy....I was extremely naive and he had spent years developing a mask he presented to the world. So everything appeared to be great on the surface.
But after a few years he could no longer live in denial and our marriage fell apart. I hated him...and I hated myself thinking it was my fault, that I had made him that way. I understood nothing.
Then a strange thing happened. I got a job in HIV research - my patients were gay men and what I learned from them allowed me to heal myself and forgive my ex-husband.
The universe is tricky like that sometimes.
xfundy
(5,105 posts)Thankfully I realized what a hell I'd end up putting a woman and possibly children through and didn't go through with it.
Thanks so much for your input!
LynneSin
(95,337 posts)The LGBT community was probably one of the last groups that I finally realized I need to figure out what it was about them that I didn't like because it made no sense. Other minorities that I did not grow up around in Rural PA I was perfectly fine and accepting, but just not the LGBT community.
But I really think Harvey Milk said it best that when us straights actually new people who were a part of the LGBT community it would be harder for us to hate on them. When I start to work in a neighboring county that was a bit more sophisticated than my backwards place was the first time I worked with 2 men who were gay. Didn't realize it at first (it was the 80s so obviously they didn't tell people up front - especially new hires). But they did befriend me, treat me like like an equal, invited me to Happy Hours with the rest of the group and showed me how things worked on the job. It was only a few weeks in that I found out they were gay, a female co-worker told me. Of course I was like 'ewww no way, they're too cute, it's disgusting, I don't want to be around them anymore blah blah blah'. That woman schooled me in a way I will never forget. Because she asked me what changed in the last 5 minutes after I knew that made these men any less friendly, nice, helpful co-workers that they were other than I now knew they were gay. She also said I was entitled to my opinion but it wouldn't be very popular around the workplace if that got around quickly and said she'd give me a chance if I would just keep an open mind and realize those 2 gay guys - still the same 2 great guys who I thought were awesome co-workers. To this day I am glad she did.
xfundy
(5,105 posts)Unfortunately, some will experience similar but hold on to their ignorance. Glad you finally grew out of yours.
Thanks!
IVoteDFL
(417 posts)I was raised by conservative Catholics and I went to a catholic elementary school. Around Junior High (7-8 grade) I started to meet different kinds of people and have different experiences and soon began to realize that what I had been taught was bullshit. I'm very ashamed of it, I can remember a couple different times when I might have hurt someone's feelings. One time a gay man called me out on it in borders book store and explained it in a way that 12 year old me understood. I don't think I've used a gay slur ever since that day.
xfundy
(5,105 posts)Words can hurt. That man did you a great favor.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Please bear in mind I didn't encounter an open gay person till I was about 19 and was aware of it, if that makes sense.
But, one of my friends growing up had two moms, I had to be reminded of this fact by my mother almost 15 years later. Everyone in the neighborhood were aware of their living situation, and the parents decided to not make an issue of it. I slept over there, playing video games, etc. The fact that he had two moms just didn't register with me, I was more interested in playing with Lego, or the NES he got first, or with his Foosball table downstairs. His parents served the same role they did for the rest of my group of friends, told us when we had to go to bed, cooked breakfast in the morning, and were generally just invisible otherwise.
ileus
(15,396 posts)closeupready
(29,503 posts)it reveals that this person subscribes to the idea, popular in the US, that there is something bad or objectionable about gay people.
When I assume someone is straight, I never get the righteous indignation about that which I get when I state that I believe someone is gay, or that someone sets off my gaydar.
This is not an overt example of homophobia, but it is a lingering relic of a time when even the presumption was offensive.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)... to the fact that gay rights are human rights.
I am not proud of it, but I was ignorant and did not pay attention to the struggles of the LGBT community. In doing so I did not stand up for what is tight ... basic equal human rights for all people. That changed
jwirr
(39,215 posts)their time hating anyone.
When I was about 10 years old I worked with a young man a little older than myself. Saw not difference. Then when I was about 12 years old I worked as a maid in his mother's home. Still did not see anything different. Except that he was my friend and he never hit on me. If I had thought about it then I might have realized.
Then years later he came out and we remained friends. Lost contact though. If there had been any hate, fear or dislike the idea that we got to know each other much earlier would have made a big difference.
Since then I don't pay much attention to gender preferences.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)I've always felt that what consenting adults do in their bedrooms is up to them. Nothing is more boring or uncomfortable for me than criticizing the sexual practices of others .
uppityperson
(115,681 posts)I got into an argument with an acquaintance as a young adult who strongly believes we were all bi when I have been attracted to men, turned out he wanted to watch me with another woman as was a voyeur. First openly gay man I knew was a brother of a friend. I was visiting the friend when his brother and another young man came through hand in hand. Friend said "yes, he's gay", I thought " huh" and that was about that.
I credit my parents with the wonderful job they did raising us to accept others for who they are, except for jerks of course. Those we were supposed to try and educate, be a good example, and help protect your who needed it. As I told my kid, I don't care who you are with so long as they are good for you and you are good for them.
xfundy
(5,105 posts)They used to take me out to the girls' bar and I felt unwelcome till they explained to me that lots of men come in there expecting to find a 3-way partner. I made sure they all knew I was fal-aming, even though I wasn't.
Accepting others unconditionally seems to be a lost art nowadays.
Thanks for your input.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)my liking. I played "smear the queer" in elementary school, before I really knew what gay or queer meant. I knew a couple of effeminate and flamboyant gay students who just sort of bugged me for what I thought was their exaggerated and dramatic mannerisms.
I was kind of an idiot. I wasn't exactly anti-gay, I just grew up in an intolerant community and learned a bit of intolerance that I wasn't unable to shake until I left that community and realized the error of my ways.
liberal N proud
(60,352 posts)My mother would never admit that her brother was gay. All of us kids knew but never made a big deal about it.
xfundy
(5,105 posts)That still goes on.
Thanks for your reply.
peacebird
(14,195 posts)Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)A good friend of mine brought it up. She was involved in theater, and said that she didn't know why gay people weren't liked because she knew lots of gay guys and they were all super nice. I decided, well, I like gay people too. To be perfectly honest, although I was generally enthralled with gay guys after that, and loved having them as friends, I was a little uncomfortable with the idea of "butch" lesbians. When I was a teenager I felt a bit threatened by (my idea) of them ... until I got to know a few, and my unease gradually went away by the time I was in my late 20s.
we can do it
(12,224 posts)Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)My parents never spoke of the issue in any way but a humanely understanding way.
My family is religiously conservative in background, but so religiously conservative that many would consider it liberal. Both my parents had friends in college who were same-sex oriented.
Therefore I cannot help you - I don't understand people who experience fear, disturbance or perturbation over the issue.
RebelOne
(30,947 posts)I also had a few gay friends, both male and female.
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)I went to school down the street from the Stonewall when they still painted their windows black so nobody, including the police, could see inside. Macho teen boys would try "prove" manhood by beating up gays. Once as a preteen, I ratted them out when they told me what they had done.
My own parents were very much matter of fact. My Aunt divorced her husband and raised her son with her female partner in the 60's. My family just shrugged. As long as they both love him and he is being raised to be a responsible adult.
I cat sit at 10 years old (50's) for the gay couple upstairs when they went on vacation. My Mom brought leftover food to the older gay man who was grief stricken over the loss of his partner, his partner's family cruelty, and who locked himself in his apartment and would not leave it.
A gay professional photographer, who lived upstairs, took my Prom pictures for free. I remember he said it was because we were his neighbors, and he very much liked our family.
Everyone was not like this in the Village back in those days, as they still aren't in 2015. I was very fortunate to have parents like mine.
Today I consider myself just as fortunate, blessed if you will, to have a wonderful, happily married lesbian daughter, and an absolutely great DIL.
One_Life_To_Give
(6,036 posts)While I never Hated nor Feared LGBT people, it may well have looked that way. Growing up we would hurl insults that we had no idea what they really meant. By the time we learned what those words meant it was so ingrained that IMO the fear of being called those terms was what we feared, not the definition of those terms. That is I feared not LGBT people, but being called the insulting words and the torment that represented. One thing that promoted change was meeting my first openly gay acquaintance. It put an association to someone being hurt by the use of such terms.
Initech
(100,155 posts)I left for two reasons. The first was that I was tired of being told that I was going to hell, and then I got really tired of the things that my church was saying about LGBT people. I just couldn't take it. I left and never looked back.
nolabear
(42,009 posts)It's interesting to remember that "gay" is "them" to so many people. I have many friends who are LGBTQ, live in one of the most gay-friendly neighborhoods in the country, and it's gotten actually jarring to really see how segregated people are from one another in many places. To me they're my friends and neighbors.