General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsCaucuses are an elitist, anti-Democratic practice that should have ended long ago.
Last edited Mon Jun 22, 2015, 04:50 PM - Edit history (3)
They are the remnants of the old "smoke filled rooms" and should be replaced by primaries everywhere.
Some states have caucuses and some have primaries. Some appear to have both -- but the primary is really a "beauty contest" that allocates NO VOTES.
This is what we have in the State of Washington -- a primary that ultimately means nothing. So I went to a caucus. Once.
What a joke. The whole thing went on for several HOURS, and consisted of seemingly endless votes on minor and major platform issues. Fine -- if that's what you had come for. But if you came to give your vote to a Presidential nominee, then you still had to sit through hours of discussion on other issues. Some of which -- arcane party matters -- You Couldn't Care Less About.
There was a lot of consulting on rules. No one seemed to know them, so a lot of time was spent trying to figure them out. It seemed that most of the people running the show were first-timers, so it felt very slap-dash and haphazard. I'd say at least a quarter of the time I spent there was in waiting time -- waiting for someone to figure out some answer to something.
So we finally came to the Presidential vote -- after 3 or 4 hours of this fun -- and my guy actually won. A bunch of us had voted for him. Oh yeah -- there's no secret ballot in a caucus -- everyone knows who everyone votes for because you have to group together. And you can change your vote when you see your guy is losing. One woman, I'll call her "Fickle", moved over to our group because her group only had 3 people in it.
I thought that would be the end of that -- but I was wrong. Our winning votes wouldn't count unless we chose one of us to go for a day- long caucus in Olympia, a two or three hour drive -- on some date weeks or months in the future. And none of us "winners" wanted to commit to yet another caucus -- a day long caucus -- and who knows what after that!
Except for Fickle. She was happy to be our delegate. And we had no other choice, so we chose Fickle, the supporter of another candidate, to go represent us in Olympia. Because she was the only one who wanted to. And I have no idea who she actually voted for when she got there.
Now, in 2015, we have a primary, too, but it doesn't count for anything. The actual delegates are still chosen by the caucus system, cleverly designed to screen out all but the most heavily involved political types. So the winner of the popular vote -- the primary -- which would better reflect the popular vote in the general election -- doesn't count. Only the winner of the caucuses.
I don't know if I'll finally go back to the caucuses this year. All I know for sure is that the results won't be representative of the average WA voter, and of which candidate that voter would prefer in the general. The results will represent the views of the most avid political people -- those who are willing to spend hours and even days in caucuses across the state. And they won't include the views of anyone who has to work during those hours, or is homebound, or not in town that day, or in the military overseas.
Caucuses suck. They're unfair to busy people (i.e., those with jobs) who would like to take part in the electoral process but don't have the time for caucusing. And they're unfair to the voters of the state because the outcome doesn't reflect the preferences of a representative group of people.
Just the die-hards with a lot of time on their hands.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_primary
History
There is no provision for the role of political parties in the United States Constitution. Before 1820, Democratic-Republican members of Congress would nominate a single candidate from their party. That system collapsed in 1824, and since 1832 the preferred mechanism for nomination has been a national convention.[21]
Delegates to the national convention were usually selected at state conventions whose own delegates were chosen by district conventions. Sometimes they were dominated by intrigue between political bosses who controlled delegates; the national convention was far from democratic or transparent. Progressive Era reformers looked to the primary election as a way to measure popular opinion of candidates, as opposed to the opinion of the bosses. In 1910, Oregon became the first state to establish a presidential preference primary, which requires delegates to the National Convention to support the winner of the primary at the convention. By 1912, twelve states either selected delegates in primaries, used a preferential primary, or both. By 1920 there were 20 states with primaries, but some went back, and from 1936 to 1968, 12 states used them. (Ware p 248)
The primary received its first major test in the 1912 election pitting incumbent President William Howard Taft against challengers Theodore Roosevelt and Robert La Follette. Roosevelt proved the most popular candidate, but as most primaries were non-binding "preference" shows and held in only fourteen of the-then forty-eight states, the Republican nomination went to Taft, who controlled the convention.
Seeking to boost voter turnout, New Hampshire simplified its ballot access laws in 1949. In the ensuing "beauty contest" of 1952, Republican Dwight Eisenhower demonstrated his broad voter appeal by out-polling the favored Robert A. Taft, "Mr. Republican." Also, Democrat Estes Kefauver defeated incumbent President Harry S. Truman, leading the latter to decide not to run for another term.[22] The first-in-the-nation New Hampshire primary has since become a widely-observed test of candidates' viability.
The impetus for national adoption of the binding primary election was the chaotic 1968 Democratic National Convention. Vice President Hubert Humphrey secured the nomination despite primary victories and other shows of support for Senator Eugene McCarthy, running against Humphrey on a strong anti-Vietnam War platform. After this, a Democratic National Committee-commissioned panel led by Senator George McGovern the McGovernFraser Commission recommended that states adopt new rules to assure wider participation. A large number of states, faced with the need to conform to more detailed rules for the selection of national delegates, chose a presidential primary as an easier way to come into compliance with the new national Democratic Party rules. The result was that many more future delegates would be selected by a state presidential primary. The Republicans also adopted many more state presidential primaries.
bluestateguy
(44,173 posts)Namely, that her supporters were shift workers who were less likely to be able to get the time off work to go to these extended debating societies. While Obama voters were well-off college students and white collar employees with flexible work hours that could attend.
cyberswede
(26,117 posts)It's a much more engaged process than just pulling a lever.
pnwmom
(109,028 posts)-- to represent your winning candidate -- actually supported a different candidate?
I'd much rather fill out my primary ballot over the kitchen table, and know my vote was going to the person I voted for.
MineralMan
(146,354 posts)our precinct caucuses in Minnesota. We also hold a straw poll near the beginning of the caucus meeting. All the other business takes place after that, so many people attend, cast their vote, and then leave.
In my precinct, we qualify to send 12 delegates to the next level, the state senate district convention. The other precincts have the same or greater number of delegates. So far, we've never had enough people when delegates were selected to fill our list, so everyone who is there can be a delegate.
The answer, if your caucus needs delegates is to offer to be a delegate. Those other conventions are more interesting, I think. I generally am a delegate to the state senate district convention, our congressional district convention, and the citywide convention, if one is being held. At those, I can get elected to be a delegate to the state convention. I haven't done that, yet, due to schedule and distance constraints. I'll probably try this year to go to the state convention as a delegate.
You appear to be complaining about the only person who was willing to be a delegate at the next level. Why did you not put your name forward? Those conventions are really interesting and you have an opportunity to make a real difference. The caucus system works, but only if people are willing to become delegates to the levels above the precinct level. If they're not, then their voice ends with their vote.
I'm sorry, but politics takes time and dedication.
pnwmom
(109,028 posts)I didn't put my name forward because I worked on Saturdays -- and I was totally disgusted with the Mickey Mouse process at that point. And I don't think that someone should have to take a day off from work in order to vote, or to have their vote count.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)And like you, I support it.
MineralMan
(146,354 posts)at the precinct caucus level. It was high in 2008, but most people just voted in the straw vote and left. Still, it was good to see so much support for Obama that evening.
Snobblevitch
(1,958 posts)"the world of state politics is run by those who show up."
MineralMan
(146,354 posts)Even in non-caucus states, the local organizations and conventions are who decides who is on the primary ballot, for the most part, and endorse candidates. It's extremely important in state races, for sure.
Those who show up and participate decide. That's true in both caucus and primary states. The process just isn't as publicly announced in states where only primaries take place. In Minnesota, the caucus system is just how the local party organization makes its decisions. Anyone is free to participate, but most people just don't bother. They're too busy or something, and don't think it's important enough for them to take the time. More's the pity.
cyberswede
(26,117 posts)The purpose of the caucus, after all, is to identify delegates to the county, then state, then national convention.
Choosing a "winner" isn't really the point.
I've caucused for a candidate who didn't receive enough support to have a delegate, so the groups supporting the other candidates had a chance to persuade us to move over to their candidate, or we could remain uncommitted. It's actually a cool thing to hear other members of my community elucidate why they support their candidate - lots of positive energy and enthusiasm.
We're choosing from among Democrats, and every D is exponentially better than any R.
pnwmom
(109,028 posts)1939
(1,683 posts)Hubert Humphrey--25.77%
George McGovern--25.34%
George Wallace--23.48%
Ed Muskie--11.51%
Scoop Jackson--3.16%
Shirley Chisholm--2.69%
McGovern won over half the delegates.
pnwmom
(109,028 posts)Scary to see that George Wallace number. Those must have turned into "Reagan Democrats."
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)pnwmom
(109,028 posts)of the average voter in Iowa.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)I don't get the advantage over allowing people to vote quickly.I can't imagine a lot of people ever having the time or childcare options for a drawn out process.
pnwmom
(109,028 posts)The primary system is a relatively recent invention because voters got tired of having the decisions made in secret by party insiders.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)Our primaries are like any other election,by vote. I was a single mom and worked afternoons for a long time,I would have never had time for all that.
dsc
(52,175 posts)In our 15th year of war none of our soldiers who are serving oversees or even out of state, can vote in them.
pnwmom
(109,028 posts)JI7
(89,289 posts)Is it the state parties or state itself ? Or the natIonal party ?
pnwmom
(109,028 posts)JI7
(89,289 posts)pnwmom
(109,028 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Primaries are better because they are secret ballot and they are open for longer hours.
It excludes people who can't make it at the appointed time for a caucus.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)CAUCUS, a face-to-face meeting of party members in any community or members of a legislative body for the purpose of discussing and promoting the affairs of their particular political party.
That does indeed, sound elitist. Or sounds like something that sounds like elitist.
pnwmom
(109,028 posts)or out of the country (in the military, for example), or who -- for whatever reason -- don't have the time to spend several hours or longer trying to get their vote recorded.
For the party regulars, no problem -- this is part of the job.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Exactly. Face to face meetings within a community are terrible.
pnwmom
(109,028 posts)People who require absentee ballots can't participate in caucuses, but they're not excluded from primaries.
sadoldgirl
(3,431 posts)primaries, but decided against it. I suppose that a primary
is far more expensive than the caucuses.
Generally I prefer a primary because of a far larger
voting group, and I like more people to vote.
tritsofme
(17,449 posts)and much less representative than primary elections.
Small groups can hijack these events and thwart the will of a majority of voters who simply do not have the time or resources to help participate in these cumbersome events.
A secret ballot and the principle of one man one vote should be enshrined in our nominating process.
UTUSN
(70,810 posts)(like bookends over my voting life, one when I was young, one/old), were populated by political-extrovert types, who were all running their own individual mini-campaigns to get themselves elected as delegates to go to the county and maybe state conventions (the nationals are for the big-wigs, no?). Like, do these people need a structure to go on a Vegas vacation?
But, really, the more serious criticisms of the caucuses are more important.
pnwmom
(109,028 posts)you mentioned. And when she realized she had picked the wrong team, she simply switched. To those of us who had thought our votes meant something, it was disconcerting, to say the least.