he has a valid opinion of the untalented Kanye and has the right to express it?

Especially considering the idiotic things Kayne has said about other artists?

and I won't tell you to keep your mouth shut.

...when they FIRED him, they put a HORSE on the next album cover in the spot where he WOULD HAVE BEEN standing.

I like him, he's kind of like Lou Reed...he says what he thinks without filtering.

Before starting my own business in 2001, I came up through the ranks in Silicon Valley. THOSE are the assholes you have to watch out for. The politically correct backstabbing weasels. I'd rather deal with a loudmouth like Crosby.

they were going through at the time, it's amazing.

and they won't grow up to be narcissistic bullies.

You have to let him talk shit, but you don't have to pay attention.


Carry on.

Sometimes the grumpy uncle shows up with the truth once in a while.

Eminem's lyrics are the most advanced of the artists included in the Hip Hop study.

A new study shows the lyrics used in popular Hip Hop songs should be legible to your average third grader.

SeatSmart published a ten-year analysis of lyric intelligence in popular music. The data for the study was collected by Andrew Powell-Morse. He used 225 songs that spent at least three-weeks at #1 on Billboard's Pop, Country, Rock and Hip Hop charts. Powell-Morse plugged the lyrics into Readability Score and received an average US reading level, word count and other metrics.

What Powell-Morse found was the overall reading level for hits released in the past decade have declined. In 2005, hit songs were being written at just above a third grade reading level and now, they are slightly below.



http://hiphopdx.com/news/id.33910/title.kanye-west-beyonce-chris-brown-hit-songs-below-third-grade-reading-level-study-shows

modern lyrics to lyrics of the 60s-90s. I suspect the difference would be more profound, depending on the genre of the music.

It's such a high-brow tune. Golly.

Only the arrogance of age will match the foolishness of youth.

Hope you didn't cut your knee with your teeth.

By a one hit wonder group.

Crosby is right, Kanye can't sing worth a shit, which is why he uses autotune, he "steals" all his melodies from legit classic RnB songs and his lyrics are so simplistic a child could write that crap.

awesome organ and a ten minute drum solo!

In an attempt to refute a generalization. That's just terrible logic. An argument could be made to explain the trend cited in the OP but... you didn't make it.

Derrp

The real question is just how false is the conjecture.

It is the nature of elderly people to glorify the expressions of their youth, often by degrading the expressions of the up-and-coming generation.

I recall when listening to Queen in the '70s, my father saying with dripping sarcasm, that song is nothing but "Pick your nose-pick your ass-pick your nose!" Then he would trot out "Sentimental Journey" as the epitome of musical expression. Bohemian Rhapsody deserved better consideration.

It's all subjective, and people with old brains (as opposed to old people's brains) are intolerant of subjective topics, which is why they always chase those damn kids off their lawns.

Never liked it, btw.

Overall the study determined that regardless of artist or genre, popular music is truly getting more simple in lyrical structure in the last 10 years.

The study also found no significant difference between the lyrics of male and female artists—they were all in decline.

As the author Andrew Powell-Morse points out though, the study

“doesn’t touch on the meaning of a song, the metaphors, how the words connect with the artist’s personal story, etc. to create deeper meaning,”

so just because a song uses big words, doesn’t mean it’s more intelligent or may have a deeper impact on the listener.

http://www.seatsmart.com/blog/lyric-intelligence/

I am the Walrus

Lennon received a letter from a pupil at Quarry Bank High School, which he had attended. The writer mentioned that the English master was making his class analyse Beatles' lyrics. (Lennon wrote an answer, dated 1 September 1967, which was auctioned by Christie's of London in 1992.) L

ennon, amused that a teacher was putting so much effort into understanding the Beatles' lyrics, decided to write in his next song the most confusing lyrics that he could.


The lyrics came from three song ideas that Lennon had been working on, the first of which was inspired by hearing a police siren at his home in Weybridge; Lennon wrote the lines "Mis-ter cit-y police-man" to the rhythm and melody of the siren.

The second idea was a short rhyme about Lennon sitting in his garden, while the third was a nonsense lyric about sitting on a corn flake.

Unable to finish the three different songs, he combined them into one. The lyrics also included the phrase "Lucy in the sky," a reference to the Beatles' earlier song "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds."


The walrus refers to Lewis Carroll's poem "The Walrus and the Carpenter" (from the book Through the Looking-Glass). Lennon expressed dismay upon belatedly realising that the walrus was a villain in the poem.

[1]
The final piece of the song came together when Lennon's friend and former fellow member of the Quarrymen, Peter Shotton, visited and Lennon asked him about a playground nursery rhyme they sang as children. Shotton recalled the rhyme as follows:

"Yellow matter custard, green slop pie,
All mixed together with a dead dog's eye,
Slap it on a butty, ten foot thick,
Then wash it all down with a cup of cold sick."[2]

Lennon borrowed a couple of images from the first two lines. Shotton was also responsible for suggesting to Lennon to change the lyric "waiting for the man to come" to "waiting for the van to come."

The Beatles' official biographer Hunter Davies was present while the song was being written and wrote an account in his 1968 biography of the Beatles. According to this biography, Lennon remarked to Shotton, "Let the fuckers work that one out."


Lennon claimed he wrote the first two lines on separate acid trips; he explained much of the song to Playboy in 1980:[3]

"The first line was written on one acid trip one weekend. The second line was written on the next acid trip the next weekend, and it was filled in after I met Yoko... I'd seen Allen Ginsberg and some other people who liked Dylan and Jesus going on about Hare Krishna. It was Ginsberg, in particular, I was referring to. The words 'Element'ry penguin' meant that it's naïve to just go around chanting Hare Krishna or putting all your faith in one idol. In those days I was writing obscurely, à la Dylan."

"It never dawned on me that Lewis Carroll was commenting on the capitalist system. I never went into that bit about what he really meant, like people are doing with the Beatles' work.

Later, I went back and looked at it and realized that the walrus was the bad guy in the story and the carpenter was the good guy. I thought, Oh, shit, I picked the wrong guy. I should have said, 'I am the carpenter.' But that wouldn't have been the same, would it? Sings, laughingly 'I am the carpenter....'"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_the_Walrus

just the number of syllables; certainly every era of modern music has it share of "erm, okay . . ." songs. Case in point: "Mairzy Doats" in 1944 (a song I love, but not exactly a blindingly deep bit of sentiment). Or "They're Coming to Take Me Away, Hahha" . . . or "Sugar Sugar", which doesn't even have the excuse of being a novelty song. Or yes, "In A Gadda Da Vida" (let's face it; many of the lyrics written between the mid-60s and the mid-80s were courtesy of drugs).

That said, I don't think that trying to give deep meaning to a song that uses the same dozen words over and over (whether it is older or newer) or relies on repetitive slang that amounts to "get money, have sex, rinse and repeat" is terribly useful, either.

Because the study was using a simple tool - readability indexing - I thought it would be interesting to see a comparison of older music to the last decade.

and introduced me to a few of his songs I might like and I did..

They also like my old school music

That being said I do wonder about the reading level or the dumbing down, or maybe saying less is more is really better some times.

Its a whiter shade of pale I guess

I don't see many Rap artists alluding to Chaucer.

in the last decade, but you know all things are a conformal cyclic cosmology and hopefully the last cycle is ending............ my kids have shown me many new indie artists that are writing good lyrics again they just like the real news doesn't get airtime .......... they listen to the new music on the web.

... about some drunken grain-grinder.

No-talent old dead english guy Geoffrey.



But it is possible that the Miller's tale foretold DU's very own "don't tuch the butt" meme. Literature endures.

(this is what happens when a bozo posts under the influence, much like the miller)

The marching band in school and they played this to a crowd that stayed silent throughout, they were amazing and when the last note was played a stunned crowd slowly came to life again and gave these young people a standing ovation that lasted longer than I had ever witnessed,

Our team lost that night, the game was one of those where both sides hollered loudly at each other with insults, but the marching band of a small town high school brought them unity for a time, I'll never forget that haunting melody and how it united angry opposing sides....

I know my son's taste in music (he's 35) is very broad, as is mine. Though I love poetry, I've never been a fan of "spoken word" music, so rap has never appealed on that level, regardless of what is being said. In the end, if I don't care for the music, the quality of the lyrics is moot.

Is your mouth a little weak?
When you open it to speak
Are you smart?"

talent show, but I love this woman's rendition.

I think he was once in a life time. Of course, he was deeply disturbed.

He's a rapper and a producer.

I'm not a fan of Beyonce or Kanye but that is a matter of opinion.

Eminem is a homophobic asshole, too, but you say nothing about him.

Bey, Kanye are strong supporters of gay rights.

if you follow my thread on this, pop, country and rap all took a hit........ its not my study, no where did I say anything about race....... I also said I liked a couple of his songs, my adult kids like him.

This opinion is spot on.

Just like they're convinced his implanted, injected, lasered, waxed and suctioned wife is one of the world's great natural beauties.

Couldn't agree more.

Way to ruin a festival.

Crosby is 100% correct. When you eliminate melody and harmony, all that is left is talking over a beat.

Whatever that is, it is assuredly not music.

I am both grumpy and pedantic on this point.

I am not a stick in the mud, though. I am very fond of a lot of EDM, chill and techno, where those elements are still very much a part of the equation. Viz

"sounds in time". It is a good definition since it covers pretty much all genres. Someone just beating on a tin drum with a stick can make music and we recognize it as such. We now have atonal music as well.

The higher level techniques you describe--melody, harmony, etc. are perhaps what you appreciate, but they don't define what music is. Even ideas of melody and harmony vary by culture.

So, it assuredly is music--just not music you appreciate.

Whats expressed is definitely worth listening. West sure nailed george bush after Katrina.

If you look at musical cultures worldwide, and through history, music that lacks harmony is a lot more common than music that lacks rhythm.

Plus, in contemporary hip-hop, there is almost always lots of melodic and harmonic content in the arrangements. Even back in the 80s it wasn't all rapping over a Casio beat.

I was raised mostly with classical music, then the Beatles and Motown on the radio and eventually progressive rock. Then the Grateful Dead, Joni Mitchell, jazz-rock fusion, electric English folk and other genres.

Discovered acoustic (real) jazz on my own, then with the guidance of a jazz-head friend.

Cannot abide hip-hop. Again, just my personal aesthetic preferences and nothing more. Few things are more subjective than musical taste.

Although I was born in 74, so I found my way to stuff like the Beatles and Motown long after their heyday.

But I'm fond of a lot of weird experimental music (and some hip-hop too, for that matter), so it's always been one of my pet peeves when people say that music has to have melody, rhythm, and harmony to count as music.

you're eliminating what a lot of people enjoy in music. There's no right or wrong to an opinion about taste. I love beats & rhythm. Going back to early blues, early rock & roll, beats that came from Africa. Crosby is wrong in that he's not the arbiter of what's good in music and bad in music. What someone else might hate, I love. What someone else might love, I don't. I love the beat. Louie Louie. Keith Moon. The Go Go's. That's why Dick Clark would say 'It's got a great beat, you can dance to it!' Or why the headphones are called Beats by Dre. I'm am always looking for a perfect one. A song with great rhythm & a great beat is a thrill and a rush.

Listen to what you dig, and enjoy.

With a side schadenfreude.

These threads make me laugh my ass off at all the foolishness. People posting Crosby songs as though Kanye will be listening to them.

It's unnecessary. Music stands or falls on its own merits, and at the end of the day what people like or don't like is subjective and personal anyway.

He also may not really understand how music is put together these days.

(get off my lawn!!!!) are just, literally obsessed with bands, singers, guitars and whatnot... And I find I just can barely tolerate any of it. It's like this glob of sound, this wall of noise that means.... well... nothing. It's an industry now... it's not about genuine artistry and talent, it's about singles and sales and festivals and tours and concerts and which chick is wearing the least amount of clothes and which teenage bad boy threw eggs at his neighbor. And it's all so effing pointless! And yet, it's a massive, massive industry.

I was in the music industry for decades from when I was a teen, but in production. I started touring when I was about 19 doing lights and sound, worked my way up from bar bands to the headline arena acts, touring all over the world, the biggest in the business... And it was nothing more than that, business.

What passes today for music just amazes me. Yeah, the lyrics suck. I find it laughable that it took someone like Lennon so long to write simple lyrics! Hopefully it only takes Taylor Swift about 5 minutes to write her stuff, although she is adorable.

I think Adele is a genuine musician and lyricist and all these angst chicks trying to copy her... well off ye go to karaoke please, don't try to make a living by expressing your deepest emotions, just be productive.

I still like music, and I can appreciate someone's gifts and talent without liking their music all the time (Prince still rules). I find myself appreciating more the people that changed the musical landscape of generations, and you don't even know their name, like Nile Rogers.... he's a music god, for sure. I like Madonna; she changed everything too. These teen queens and boy bands just irritate the shit out of me.

I'll still take Mozart and Puccini and Bocelli. Music that stands the test of time.

BTW Crosby is an asshole. Firsthand on that one.

Last edited Sat Jun 27, 2015, 05:07 PM - Edit history (1)

And had the credits for all the songs co-written by he and John Lennon changed so his name was first, and tried to have the giant ferris wheel in London to promote one of his albums.

I wouldn't use him as a barometer for much of anything.

That you wouldn't use him as a barometer for much of anything.

Of course, we both know he doesn't. And why should they?

I don't like much of Wings but I'd wager PM doesn't care.

about Kanye West's talent or Paul McCartney's for that matter.

I don't expect either of them care what I think. But I'm not posting in an attempt to get their validation, or frankly yours. I post because I find something interesting enough to comment on.

But I do find it amusingly ironic that you seem to think that lecturing me that other people might not care what I think, as though I'm then supposed to care what you think about my posts.

Thank you!

B-side: "I'm Down" (other side of the 45 "Help&quot :

that's all i have to say about that! oh, and I agree with David Crosby.

People get so jealous of Kanye... He is handsome, wealthy, talented, and honest. He knew george bush didn't like black people. I've always wanted to thank him for that bit of wisdom he tossed out.
Have you heard New Slaves? Song of the damn decade!
If you ever want to relate to black millennials, the best way is to start with music. Kanye is a part of black culture; he's pretty much a superstar in our community.


I love how DU trashes the fuck out of Kanye if some white person says something basty about him. Racism is alive and well. Now, who the fuck is David Crosby?

I can't believe this thread. I'm not really a fan of Kanye's music but I do recognize that he has a lot of talent as do Beyonce and other artists derided above. Many people love his music. The level of venom is puzzling to me, why the hatred towards someone just because their music isn't what they prefer??

He scares them. The world has changed, music has changed, pop culture has changed, and they think their way was best, their music was best, and he's so black. Popular culture left their things behind and they are scared. They talked about him so bad here one day, called him all types of cunts, pieces of shit, less than a shit from Beck's ass...

It does seem racist, even if those who are saying those things aren't aware of it.

I bet they would never go to the hood and start that shit.

"called him all types of cunts, pieces of shit, less than a shit from Beck's ass" and you reported them and nothing happened? If that is the case I want to know because I also want to report them. If the the posts were deleted then something happened.

I was pissed and frustrated but I have come to expect it. After Trayvon, Mike Brown, etc, I know how it is around here. I once wrote an op in the AA forum called 'You can say anything you want about a black person, and get away with it'. It was about DU and it was certainly true.

The cunt thing; a brittish singer in a band, feminist, well known to many here, decided that Kanye was a cunt and wrote a screed about him. DU decided to join the fun and call him every name in the book because Kanye said that; once again, Beyonce should have won, or somebody else should have won besides Beck. Then some people on DU decided Kanye was a piece of shit, less than one of Beck's shits, and both he and Beyonce are talentless hacks and that becks hip hop rip off was the best music ever to behold. It was really eye opening and I could see clearly what was going on. White musician critisizes black; perfectly fine, fine with me as well. Black musician critisizes White? Piece of shit, cunt, asshole, talentless, less than shit; obviously not okay to critisize white musicians if you are a black one; not fine with me at all.

It comes off as incredibly racist and while I know lots of older African Americans who believe rap "isn't music" they wouldn't dismiss one of this generation's most prominent black artists in such derisive terms.

You should report them. Those are not the kinds of things anyone should be saying about people on here.

You should go back to the OP and report them now. I'd like to see who said those things. Link to the thread. If not, then I think you might be exaggerating. and those are some extreme exaggerations.

I do not need to exaggerate. Lol! It was after the grammys last time. Thread after thread trashing Kanye; it's a regular thing around here.

If people reported it and it was taken down I guess that's all you can do. I did a search. There is no use of cunt in any thread about Kanye. There is still lots of use of the word shit and shitty but that's a bit different to me.

Kanye on the other hand has no problem whatsoever using misogynist language.

“We got this bitch shaking like Parkinson’s.”
“I know she like chocolate men / She got more n*ggas off than Cochran.”
“Took her to the 'Bleau, she tried to sip the fountain/ That when David Grutman kicked her out/ But I got her back in and put my dick in her mouth.”

What do you call this? Irony? Tell me he's only kidding. Tell me it's unintentional or doesn't really mean it. I'm surprised you are offended by disgusting racism and misogyny on DU but it's totally OK from him.

If you kicked it with me you might be disturbed by all the niggas I use. The hood in me slips out all the time. I call people all type of things, breezys, sligadells, all types of shit.

Here on DU, I refrain from such and speak proper english. And the line about chocolate men is hella funny.
And oral sex is a real thing. Most of us do it. I know I do. To me sex is not offensive. The reason I don't care what he says in his songs is the beat. And he's not on DU. If he was on DU calling people bitches lik they were calling him cunts, it would be hidden. Besides, they only do this tar and feathering with black artists. I see it all the time. I know DU. They cannot help themselves but to try to do all they can to trash a black man.

I respect that. I'm glad you feel like you can express it here. It says something about how you feel about at least some people here or you wouldn't waste your time. I would not be disturbed by your language. I would be sad. Internalized Racism is a real thing. Why would a smart clever funny beautiful resilient person like you who obviously cares deeply about human beings feel the need to talk about other people that way. Sex is not offensive to me either. Sex is great. Sex between any number of consenting adults is fine and ok with me. Saying something is shaking like a bitch with parkinson's is not ok with me. Saying that you dragged someone into your car and stuck your dick in his/her mouth does not sound consentual to me. It sounds like rape. Making allusions about one's wife is not at all nice and reduces her to an object that is owned. Although Kim K might be OK with that if the price is right.

So now all you have left is the beat. There are lots of beats out there. Try Santigold. Try MIA. Try Michael Franti. Try Mos Def. Try Talib Kweli. There are lots of good political hip-hop artists. They don't pack stadiums because they don't make money off of white kids like Kanye.

seriously, I hadn't really thought about it like that. thanks for sharing your point of view. But damn, those dudes really need to bring it down a notch when it comes to women. I think the storytelling aspect is very true. Tupac can make me cry and he certainly did not have it together when it comes to women. But Kanye makes me crazy because people like you who care about black culture and black people defend him while he sells out black culture every chance he can get. I don't hate hip-hop. I'm cool with it. I like lots of music too. But I will go to the wall against any music that is shitty toward women and people outside of their demographic (hates-guns and roses, eminem, nickelback, maroon 5, kid rock, etc). But Kanye seems to have an army of people on all sides who ought to know better. I guess I just don't get it.

Yeah, he sold out, but everyone does. All of them. If they don't they dissappear or kill themselves like Kurt Cobain. Kanye is a revolutionary producer of music. He was making beats for everybody before he finally dropped his first album. Jesus Walks was pretty awesome.
Yeah, Kanye is sexist. The world is sexist. I would never try to date him, but I'll can love his music.
Ever since his mama died he's been shittier towards women, like he needed her to keep him straight. Now he has Kim.... Not really helpful. My husband better no run around calling women names, I'll kick his ass.

But hell, John Lennon hit his wife. Bob Marley was a horndog. So many great artist are shitty people. Kanye is no where near the worst of the lot. America take black stuff and investigates it to the fullest and always declares is faulty or terrible or wrong. Try to ban black stuff. They don't do this with white music.

But my point is that Kanye is not investigated or considered faulty or wrong by (I assume you mean white) america. Just the opposite. to tell an almost completely white audience that it is OK this one time to use the n-word then have thousands of white posers screaming it just because it's in his song is just too fucked up on so many levels for me. I saw it. I was there and he has done this more than once. Like the beat if you will. I liked his very first album but now he's too much for me.

I watch the kids from the Middle school do it in the parking lot next door. They're skateboarders. Cute little white kids. They always end up saying it over and over to each other, a litany. Come on nigga, lets go nigga, hell no nigga, it was that nigga. I try to get mad but I just laugh at the stupid. I'm sure it's a banned word at home so they go out and about just using it on each other. The asians and hispanic and native kids do it too. The more we frown at them the more they do it.
I just smile and wave, hey y'all! They shut up for a while, but then they go back to it.

Bu white America, I do not mean the youngsters. Young white always do what their parents are unaccustomed to. Boomers were like that too. Their parents hated rock and free love. They did it more and better. Lots of interracial babies came from boomers. They did not care what their parents said.

I personally don't see those little white kids as racist for yelling it out in concerts or singing along. They don't wanna be left out of the culture. I understand it's a big issue for some people, but I try to keep things in perspective and try to figure out the intentions behind the use of the words before I get all upset. In my day the white kids used to skip that word in the song. But the songs these days leave that option a hard choice. They be skipping three words in a row on a Nikki Minaj song. Look up the song 'Lookin ass Nigga' by Nikki Minaj, and you'll see why it's so hard to do.

In the interests of full disclosure.

Setting classical music aside, my iTunes playlist is comprised of music dating back to the 1940s, along with a lot of new stuff I hear online or from local college radio stations.

You seem not to recognize that "them" grew up listening to some really great black artists -- from all genres -- and reject the "Kayne is a god" way of thinking. Trust me, "them" is not afraid of Kanye.

Jay-Z doesn't get bashed the way Kanye does. Why is that?

and my goodness do people rush to her defense.

We have a 10-minute random-black-person hate here in GD every so often. I've seen Oprah get it too. But I usually see Beyonce as the target.

Oh wait, it usually lasts longer than 10 minutes. I guess it's usually between one and three threads.

I dislike a huge amount of today's music. I also recognize that the music I listened to in the 80s wasn't objectively any better. It's just taste and generational stuff.

if you don't know who Crosby is - look him up.

Back in the 60s, Crosby, Stills, Nash, and Young were a huge and relevant group.

It's like if some ragtime musician started trash talking the beatles in the 60s is what this feels like.
He and they may have been relevant back then, but Kanye is relevant NOW. I don't like it when a bunch of folks who cannot relate to the music I listen to to sit around and trash talk Yeezy. He raps about the black experience in America. I posted one down thread. I still hear black people bumpin New Slaves when I'm driving around town. Music is subjective. He may not like it, but he should set a good example of magnanimity for younger artist to dollow, not act like an old Hater.

but I grew up with Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young.

Do not worry yourself that some 70 plus musician is now dissing a relevant musician. This happens all the time as the old roll over to the young.

It's all just the way of the world.

But dayum, I wish he had not married that Kardashian! I lost a lot of respect for him there.

I try to like her for his sake. So I stopped saying mean things about her and I feel better about myself for doing it. That's something at least.

And I think she hitched herself to his star for a reason.

He is talented, but she is not.

Sure is a pretty wee baby they had though.

I just hope he gets out of this unscathed. He was so close with his momma, and I just wonder what she is thinking.

If his mamma hadn't have died, he may have made a better decision regarding his choice if spouse. But, like you say, they have that beautiful baby... He absolutely lights up when he is with that baby girl. Kim helped give him that piece of joy, so i try like all hell to be kind. It's hard, cause I do not like her. I'm glad they both have money, so they don't end up fighting over child support.

Been a fan of his from way back...when she was alive.

He was so close with her, and he would have listened.

Disappointed in Crosby.

If Kanye wasn't such a hater of his peers at award shows.