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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsDid France pull Greece back from brink of Grexit?
How do you say 'austerity' in German?
President François Hollande described the Greek proposals as "serious and credible", saying Athens had "shown a determination to stay in the eurozone. He also said the governments decision to submit the proposals to Greek lawmakers showed "power, commitment and I would also say, courage.
According to several media, French officials have at least one good reason to hail Greeces proposals: they helped draft them.
On Thursday, several media including Le Figaro, the Guardian and the Wall Street Journal reported that France had dispatched a team of experts to Athens to ensure the Greek reform package was creditor-compatible.
Quoting unnamed sources at the French Finance Ministry, Le Monde said Friday that French experts had been working hand in hand with Greek negotiators for several days. The Greeks hold the pen, but theyre using us as sparring-partners, said one source. Were not telling them what to write, but advising them about which measures would be acceptable to the creditors, added another.
One does not leave Plato waiting at the door of Europe, former French President Valery Giscard d'Estaing famously said when the question of Greeces membership of the EU first came up in the 1970s. On Thursday, EU Economy Commissioner Pierre Moscovici echoed that view by stating: One does not expel Plato from Europe.
http://www.france24.com/en/20150710-france-pull-greece-back-brink-grexit-hollande-tsipras
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Excellent read about France's crucial behind-the-scenes role in the Greek drama.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)Hollande flew out to Germany the next day to meet with Merkel.
Schauble is on record as wanting to force Greece out of the EU for years.
And Merkel refused any debt write-down, despite the 2010 IMF report that it was necessary. Varoufakis wouldn't agree to any austerity plan that lacked debt write down -- that was the sole reason Greece rejected the latest plan.
Greece has already instituted the prior austerity plans and cracked down on tax cheats. Unfortunately, their largest industry -- they are international leaders in shipping -- continues to be tax exempt. For some reason, the Troika hasn't required them to tax international shipping. Some have speculated that could be because they deliver their benzes, audis and VWs worldwide via Greek shipping lines.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)http://www.france24.com/en/20150710-live-liveblog-greece-tsipras-faces-tough-vote-reform-plan-eurozone
In the latest proposals, Greece has asked for 53.5 billion euros ($59 billion) to help cover its debts until 2018, a review of primary surplus targets and reprofiling the countrys long-term debt.
In turn, Athens bowed to demands to phase out tax breaks for its islandscash cows for the tourism industryand to hike VAT rates and taxes on shipping companies.
The question on everyones lips is: has Tsipras caved in? The answer is: yes and no. Heres why:
Yes: Greece has agreed to raise taxes on shipping companies, unify VAT rates at a standard 23%, phase out solidarity grants for pensioners by 2019, slash 300m from the defence budget, privatise seaports, and scrap a 30% tax break for wealthiest islands. Thats a lot of concessions, crossing a number of Syrizas red lines.
No: In return, the government is asking for a lot more money (53.5 billion) than was previously the case. It also wants some form of commitment to provide debt relief.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)or at least not making it a requirement, so didn't realize that it was Greece refusing that.
Tough break for the shipping magnates, and about time. The Onassis's of the world have taken too much for too long.
On a personal note, my grandparents apparently were of the 1%. According to my mother, her father inherited a shipping fortune and refused to take it. Don't know what the family fallout was way back then, but my grandparents moved to the US post-WW1 and chose to be working poor instead of lazy rich.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)So, but for a twist of fate, you could've been part of the 1% elite. Ah, the vagaries of destiny.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)My mother would have married better the 1st time around, and she hated kids so with her own money wouldn't have needed any, let alone 3, to seal the deal.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)grandmother and her daughter, my mother, as well.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)there was a time when I pined for them. I look back on those days and laugh
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)ananda
(28,909 posts)Nothing as far as I can tell.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)and they don't need more austerity. Pensions already were cut 44%.
They need to tax the shipping industry, but Germany probably won't allow that because it might hurt German profits.
They need the same sort of debt write off that Germany got post WW2 -- 50%.
The current deal I read has 13% write-down. Just will drag out the suffering longer. I wonder if Syriza will survive this. They were voted in to end austerity/depression economics.
Or if they're still just buying time to figure out a way out of the eurozone, which is what really needs to happen.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)http://www.france24.com/en/20150710-live-liveblog-greece-tsipras-faces-tough-vote-reform-plan-eurozone
The question on everyones lips is: has Tsipras caved in? The answer is: yes and no. Heres why:
Yes: Greece has agreed to raise taxes on shipping companies, unify VAT rates at a standard 23%, phase out solidarity grants for pensioners by 2019, slash 300m from the defence budget, privatise seaports, and scrap a 30% tax break for wealthiest islands. Thats a lot of concessions, crossing a number of Syrizas red lines.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)which would be "crashing" out of the Euro-zone with no safety net, no preparations for any other currency, their banks virtually bankrupt, etc.
Unfortunate, that for the last five months, Tsipras and his "Minister of Awesome" as DUer Geek Tragedy so aptly called him, did nothing but bluster and posture from their ideological highhorse.
Instead of negotiating in good faith, they squandered all the credibility and trust they had with their negotiating partners.
Their untimely, rash, and futile referendum stunt was the expensive ( 120m) frosting on that shit-cake, and now, this is the best they're likely to get--if they can even get this.
To bad they refused to consider the offer that was on the table two weeks ago and instead stalked out calling their interlocutors "terrorists".
We'll see...
Taitertots
(7,745 posts)Everyone knew austerity would cause a depression.
What type of "good faith" negotiations do you have with someone who is intentionally destroying your economy as a tactic to maximize profits?
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)Their economies are on the mend and growing.
Italy has tightened some nuts and bolts and is growing as well.
They, like Greece, all want to remain in the euro-zone, for the trading facility it provides.
The euro has been a major boon to intra-European trade and tourism.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1016126972#post9
Thanks to accounting slight-of-hand, aided and abetted by Goldman Sachs, Greece was admitted to the euro-zone in 2001, under the fraudulent pretext that their tax code/collection system and pension structure were viable.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1016126972#top
From central European minnows such as Slovakia to Baltic eurozone republics such as Latvia and Lithuania, hard-pressed pensioners and workers earning barely 500 a month are at a loss as to why Greece should qualify for more largesse.
Taitertots
(7,745 posts)Do you believe in expansionary austerity?
The preponderance of economic research indicated that austerity would cause a depression in Greece.
Start reading Paul Krugman's blog. He went through why all those cases are different.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)It is proof that austerity isn't the inevitable catastrophe that it's billed to be.
We remember the correct predictions, and take Greece as proof that austerity = disaster.
The incorrect predictions, the counterexamples, the data that falsify our beliefs and the theories we nurture and adore, we simply forget ever happened. That cuts both ways: There are good examples where austerity did work; there are good examples where Keynesian theory flopped miserably.
Taitertots
(7,745 posts)With Greece it was and everyone knew it.
All the other cases were different for obvious reasons. I'm not going to walk you through the differences between every country in Europe.
PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)speech to the National Assembly, pleading in favor of French support for the "cradle of democracy" and reaffirming France's "firm" commitment to Greece remaining in the Euro-zone.
marmar
(77,124 posts)http://greece.greekreporter.com/2015/05/05/poll-66-5-of-greeks-prefer-the-euro-over-drachma/
Not to mention that Greece would fall completely over the cliff in a Grexit, being totally unprepared for a reversion to the drachma which experts estimate would take at least 6 months.
Also, their membership in and use of the euro is a major boost to their N°2 industry, tourism. They would be dying right now without tourism. Even the tiniest land-poor, poverty-striken island can now count on those euro-spending tourists to improve their lot.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)Quite a few countries don't want to slap down another Euro cent on this particular table.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)with her partners, that finding a way back across the yawning abyss will be VERY difficult.
roamer65
(36,748 posts)The Germans are bound and determined to turn the Euro into a revived DM. The countries I have listed simply cannot sustain the Bundesbank flavor of monetary policy and come out of it with a functioning economy.
It is time for these countries to leave the Eurozone.
Schauble is at it again this morning trashing Greece. Keep it up. The more you bully Greece, the more people see the old German "attitude".
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)Their economies are on the mend and growing.
Italy has tightened some nuts and bolts and is growing as well.
They, like Greece, all want to remain in the euro-zone, for the trading facility it provides.
The euro has been a major boon to intra-European tourism.
Being a dollar user, you have no idea what it means to be able to travel from Helsinki to Malaga without having a ton of currency chicken-feed in your wallet.