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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsAnimal activists face 'domestic terrorism' charge in freeing 5,740 minks
Source: Associated Press
Associated Press in Oakland, California
Saturday 25 July 2015 14.41 BST
Two animal rights activists have been charged with terrorizing the fur industry during cross-country road trips in which they released about 5,740 mink from farms and vandalized the homes and businesses of industry members, the FBI said on Friday.
The FBIs Joint Terrorism Task Force arrested Joseph Brian Buddenberg, 31, and Nicole Juanita Kissane, 28, both of Oakland, California, and federal prosecutors charged them with conspiracy to violate the Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act.
A federal grand jury indictment unsealed on Friday said the two caused hundreds of thousands of dollars in damages during 40,000 miles of cross-country trips over the summer and into the fall of 2013.
Whatever your feelings about the fur industry, there are legal ways to make your opinions known, US attorney Laura Duffy said in a statement. The conduct alleged here, sneaking around at night, stealing property and vandalizing homes and businesses with acid, glue, and chemicals, is a form of domestic terrorism and cant be permitted to continue.
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Read more: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jul/25/animal-activists-minks-domestic-terrorism-charges
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)I used to live in an apt complex a few years back. One day in received a notice ( more like a warning ) that I am not to feed the stray cats in our complex any longer (they listed some bs reasons, that the food would attract wild animals, etc ). That same day I gave them my 30 day notice.
Fuck animal haters. It's disgusting what they are doing, only because they're incapable to feel for anyone other than themselves. Fuck them.
And those who think killing animals for fur is OK, fuck you too! We have developed enough technologically, there is synthetic fur out there. No one needs to kill a perfectly healthy and happy living being for "fur". Screw this shit.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)After 20 years in jail what was accomplished?
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Would sitting quietly and let abuse go on be a better answer?
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)They saved the lives of over 5000 innocent animals in the process. Well worth it, I say.
Kali
(55,032 posts)releasing captive bred animals to the wild is not the feel-good action idiots imagine it is
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Prove the animals saved ended up in "worse death".
I'm waiting.
Kali
(55,032 posts)what do you think the carrying capacity of small predators in that area is? and that would be for wild animals that KNOW what and how to hunt. these are captive bred that have been fed prepared commercial food all their lives.
most of them would be run over (ok, those would probably be fast and relatively painless), eaten by larger predators, and die of starvation. how humane.
edit, reread the article. not all released in the same area. point stands, releasing unadapted animals to the wild is still a death sentence for the vast majority of them.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Maybe most of them survived and are living happily ever after.
The ones who are the problem are the money greedy animal abusers, not the minks or the ones who fought to release and save them.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Just sayin'
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)You don't consider that abuse???
Jeebus Christ!
Boudica the Lyoness
(2,899 posts)Some people think killing an animal is not abusive.
It's like people saying they are animal lovers and then it turns out they are hunters or eat meat.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Then again I never really understood how an animal has more rights the cuter it is.
melman
(7,681 posts)All animal abuse is wrong.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Probably because defining that as abuse is a ridiculous notion. Are all omnivores and carnivores animal abusers as well, or just homo sapiens?
How many helpless animals do you think are murdered during field crop production? Do you think rodents are allowed to munch on crops to their heart's content? How about all those other little critters that are chewed up by farm machinery? Is this wrong? And if so what are you prepared to do in order to prevent yourself from contributing to it?
Food for thought.
Orrex
(63,287 posts)BudahBelly
(3 posts)My day is made!!
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)by spritzing your ground beef with a little ammonia before making patties, and then topping hte cooked burger with a whole tin of anchovies.
weasels are not food. For anyone. Ever. except hawks, because birds don't have much by way of taste buds or a sense of smell.
Orrex
(63,287 posts)Why do you hate freedom?!?!?
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)NickB79
(19,301 posts)It would be akin to releasing house cats into the wild; some will survive and turn feral, but many will die.
And even in mild environments where they have the best ability to survive, that survival typically endangers the local wildlife: http://www.snopes.com/critters/crusader/minks.asp
But the illegal act has backfired as few British animal-liberation missions ever have. Released into the rich countryside of England's southern coast, the thousands of minks have gone on a rampage driven by insatiable hunger and equally insatiable mink-like curiosity.
Domestic pets and farm animals including cats, hamsters, chickens, guinea pigs and hens have been pursued and killed. Wild animals including the endangered water vole, a type of water rat are under attack. Local fisheries are threatened.
And local residents, including the owners of a wild bird sanctuary where three birds were killed in mink attacks Sunday and Monday, have taken up arms. One of the dead birds was a beloved, 14-year-old kestrel named Spitfire who made countless educational trips to local schools.
Orrex
(63,287 posts)Telcontar
(660 posts)Wow
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Feral mink populations undermine native species requiring animal control to trap and destroy them. So not only were they creating a hazard for the mink, they were creating a hazard for other native species.
I'm sure these so-called activists think they are doing a good thing, but their stupidity betrays their actions regardless of intent.
Orrex
(63,287 posts)They're all wearing mink coats, after all.
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)They released domesticated animals to a slow death rather than a quick one.
If a few of them somehow survive to mate and breed they have loosed an animal into an environment unsuited to it.
If that happens, Yes, I would put the little shmucks in prison for life for environmental terrorism.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)weasels in wild are also mostly nocturnal and eat all kinds of small things, bugs and such.
If they're released in 'the wild', they will go totally feral, wild, really fast, and never will show up at dinnertime at the 'weasel-farm' looking for their chow.
most of those fur farms look similar to the crappy worse puppy mills. They're also hidden in rural/wooded areas so the general public doesn't have to see the cruelty and filith and smell the stink of those "farms"
rows and rows of wire cages, suspended over bare ground. covered by some sort of crappy roof to keep the elements from 'damaging the live-fur. To release them just open the cage door and off they run.
The claim of 'millions in damages' is probably, mostly the loss of 3,000s? skins. full retail loss cost of course, so the Feds can lock up the "terrorists" for 40 years.
I am not defending the practice of fur farms, just pointing out that releasing captive bred animals is not the happy ending fantasy that animal rights fools think it is.
someone mentioned Disney - that about sums up the reality some of these fanatics inhabit.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)many people don't like it that laboratory animals suffer like they do.
*I bet they ran off into the wild and happy to be free at last and already met-up with all the other weasels that escaped from the fur farm over the past many years.
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)cuz that's one way they kill them
drowning is another
they are better off takin their chances for a life.
better yet, don't allow this fur breeding for fashion shit to happen in the first place.
Kali
(55,032 posts)animals aren't homophobic so the horror of "anal" is likely anthropomorphizing something to create disgust in humans.
I suspect how ever they are dispatched is fast and hope that there is some regulation/knowledge of what is a best-practice, humane way of doing so. if not, that would be a better avenue to pursue than vandalism.
disclaimer: I don't have any real knowledge on the subject, I don't raise fur animals.
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)and they don t even try to make it less horrid cuz you know...just animals.
being out as previously captive animals is not good...ideally they would have been taken to sanctuary
Kali
(55,032 posts)like I said - if it is fast, then it is not
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)that the people who work at those "farms" are not animal lovers. they are sloppy and some are sadistic.
besides this is all for fashion. completely insane and should be illegal imo.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)'alone' terrifies all wild animals and is not humane.
Like I said in another post, they don't shock them anyway, they do it cheaper with no handling of a fierce animal, plus no risk of damage to the precious fur from restraint and electricity. they drown them or use old dog pound-nazi 'trick', car exhaust.
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)some of these poor things i would imagine could be quite docile if they trusted humans.
big mistake.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)and no wild animal wants a electric wire shoved in their rectum.
And one can bet money that these filthy fur farms would never spend a dime to say.., spike their last supper with an anesthetic so the probe shove is 'humane'.
although some of the fur farms don't drown to kill, they do the -old dog pound nazi 'trick'-- they run truck exhaust to a sealed box full of their little wire cages for 20 minuets. to kill them.
I can totally understand why some people are passionately driven to try to save some animals. And I think to use Federal Terror Laws to lock them away for decades is wrong, bad law.
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)Starvation is not Happily Ever After.
On edit one of the replies actually used that exact phrase.
Absolute clueless skipping woowoo children.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)They were released from many different locations, in 4-5 states. What proof do you have those animals starved?? You don't have any proof, you just chime in to throw some silly insults.
The alternative for the minks would have been a certain death.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)Almost certainly much more slowly.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Killing perfectly healthy wild animals for fur is unnatural and its abuse. No matter how many are try to paint it as.
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)Starvation is an awful way to die.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)All wild animals face starvation. Should we just kill them to prevent them "the suffering"??
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)That one where animals are kind to each other,
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Maybe you would grow a heart.
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)Nature is brutal.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Nature doesn't kill to make fur ornaments. Ignorant humans do.
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)Grow up.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)See ya in the lounge!
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)davepc
(3,936 posts)REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
How many time-outs does Darkangel need to before she realizes that insulting other people who disagree with her (as she's been doing throughout this thread) will get her additional time outs? Please hide this. Someone disagreeing does not equal not having a heart. She is over the top and makes DU suck.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Jul 26, 2015, 05:45 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Rude and snarky, but does not merit a hide. There is no constitutional right to not have your feelings hurt.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This is an abuse of the alert system. This is a fairly mild exchange of give and take. Telling us that the poster has a history of "time-outs" is inappropriate, and should have nothing to do with this alert. No violation of CS.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It was mutual and the alert sounds like a vendetta
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Oh get over yourself.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This post is no worse than several others in this subthread. While somewhat childish, I don't think it rises to the level of a hide.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)What proof do you have those animals survived?? You don't have any proof, you just chime in to throw some silly insults.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Do you know what a mink is, what their habits, diet, and lifestyle are?
'Cause this is need-to-know stuff, in the context of the argument.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Not killed and turned into fur.
Is that too much for you to absorb?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)The wild is where wild animals belong, not dead around a human's neck, Scootaloo.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Should we take shark out of the water for being "hyperactive"???
Minks are wild animals, not domesticated. They belong in the wild. Too bad you have a problem with that.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)I have nothing left to say to you.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)1) Mink are indeed an invasive species in many parts of the country because of their being farmed. Escapes and releases have resulted in ecologically destructive feral populations. it's an even bigger problem in Europe and south america, where they're completely non-native (in Europe, American mink outcompete and hunt the native European mink, even)
2) This means that mink - whether native wild populations or introduced feral populations - are not rare. They aren't even close to endangered. So anywhere that you are dumping "liberated" mink, is pretty much guaranteed to have mink populartions already there, if it's at all suitable habitat for the animals.
3) Which it might not be. Mink are semi-aquatic and dependent on flowing waterways. if this habitat is not available, you might as well toss them in the ocean and hope they become sea otters. What this specialized habitat dependency means... is that mink are also territorial. I don't think I need to explain to you how a medium-sized weasel might settle territorial disputes?
4) While the local mink and the introduced mink are tearing each other to shreds over living space, both groups are eating (or trying to eat - captive breeding isn't conducive to hunting ability.) Now you've put pressure on the prey animals of the locality. And that pressure and resultant scarcity is going to drive the mink towards non-regular prey. Which by definition has not evolved with mink predation as a feature.
5) Those mink are also being eaten. Foxes, hawks, and owls dine on mink. and you've just thrown a lot of food into the faces of these higher-tier predators. This is going to result in a population bulge for these guys, which is going to result in more pressure on their prey, including whatever mink survived the initial onslaught.
6) The expanded population of mink causes another problem - disease. Captive mink aren't famed for their immune systems (there is no breeding pressure for good immunity in captivity, after all) and minks, as all mustelids, are vulnerable to diseases like rabies, distemper, influenza, and parvoviruses. otters, those foxes, raccoon, etc are all also vulnerable to these diseases.
You seem to have this fantasy of kyoot widdle fwiffy-wuffy schnukkums frolicking freely in meadows and having adventures with its widdle buddies. What you're actually doing is endangering an entire fucking ecosystem by throwing gobs and gobs of new predators into the mix and walking away.
You don't like the fur industry? That's fine, neither do I. But given the choice between a fur farm and widespread ecological harm, i'll take the fur farm. Now if you have an option C, let's have a look at that.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Are you advocating we kill cats too? Just curious.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)You can't equate dumping cats in the woods with dumping minks in the woods, since cats are domesticated animals. I only want to know your opinion as far as them being "an ecological problem" , since that is what you are focusing your statement on.
?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)And they should no more be dumped by the dozen in the woods than mink, because of this.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Thank you for clarifying. I know where you are coming from now.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)We don't know if they lived happily ever after. There are no guarantees in life. Not even for humans.
The only thing we kniw is that they were saved from a certain death, and given a chance to life. And that is good enough for me.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)They're far from rare, as I said. Everywhere that can sustain a functional mink population in the wild already does. Anywhere that doesn't have a mink population either can't support a mink population, or is an environment outside of their natural range.
If you throw gobs of farm mink into a place already populated with mink, you're creating an ecological disaster through the introduction of a new population of an already-maximized predator.
If you throw those mink into an environment that is bad for mink, they'll just die. They're picky about their habitats after all, and can only successfully live in certain environments.
If you throw them into a place that they can survive, but that does not have a mink population, you are introducing an alien, invasive predator that will undoubtedly cause vast harm to that ecosystem.
Simply put, this action shows an astounding lack of foresight - and a lack of awareness of the impact other, prior mink releases have had on environments (and ht mink themselves). All you have in this story is a bunch of ignorant humans wasting animals' lives - and possibly an entire ecosystem - in order to make themselves feel good.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)What do you mean by "there is no shortage of minks in the wild"??
Should we save only endangered animals???
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Adding more mink to these maximized populations can only cause problems, for both the local mink, the introduced mink, and the surrounding ecology.
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)Euthanasia doesn't work because even if you kill off a colony it creates a vacuum that other ferals fill.
The best way to help reduce the number of strays and ferals is a TNR program. I participate in TNR program and I make regular donations to a low cost spay & nuter clinic.
As much as I love animals, I do realize releasing animals that are not prepared into the wild is cruel, especially a highly territorial animal like a mink.
Kali
(55,032 posts)I hope others read and gain a little new information. the person you are talking too, though? waste of breath, as you can see by the deflection about cats instead of any acknowledgement of your clearly stated points.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)though I doubt we have to worry about weasels uprooting lawns or "sky cowboys machine gunning weasels from the chopper like they do with feral hogs, or dog packs tearing up a captured weasel for sport, like some 'hunters' do with coyotes for fun.
Kali
(55,032 posts)much missing knowledge there
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Telcontar
(660 posts)Pee Wee Herman's School of I Know You Are?
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Archae
(46,376 posts)I call them "Bambi animal activists."
They learned about nature by watching Disney's "Bambi."
Real fur is on it's way out, same way hats made from beaver pelts are.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Lol
Archae
(46,376 posts)But like I said, it's on it's way out.
Even if it takes another 20 years, it's still a far better way to phase out fur farms, than destruction, vandalism and cruelty to the "released" minks.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Since tens of thousands, if not millions of animals are killed for their fur every year.
Those animals have teh right to a chance to live out in the wild where they belong. They have the right to life and freedom, just like we do. They are not domesticated animals, they are wild animals.
hunter
(38,353 posts)They did not do these animals or the natural environment any favors.
I"m not ever going to buy a fur coat, but I've also eaten animals I've seen alive and do not expect our family dogs to be vegetarians.
Dr Hobbitstein
(6,568 posts)AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service
On Sun Jul 26, 2015, 03:40 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
I agree. These idiots need a long "time out."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7012819
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
Calling posters who disagree "idiots". Name calling is not OK. Hide it.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Jul 26, 2015, 03:46 PM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The post is rude but appears to be in keeping with many of the others. I think you'd have to censor more than just this one to be consistent.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I believe he's talking about the people who did it, not anyone on du. Relax.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The alerted post refers to the people that released the mink.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Calling the activists idiots =\= calling posters idiots. Try reading AND comprehending before alerting.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Do not agree with alert
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Looks like the poster is calling the eco-terrorists idiots. Is releasing 5K domesticated predators, raised in captivity into the wild some how more noble that the people that dumped pythons and anacondas into the everglades?
If they cared about the animals well being, why didn't the take them home, or foster them until a more humane solution could be found?
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)Someone can't alert for 24 hours now.
reading comprehension FAIL
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)Hate much?
Try transferring your love of worthless, feral animals to human beings.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Wow, now you did it.
Bookmarked.
It's obviously not me who's "hating".
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)but this is a bullshit use of "terrorism" laws. Which is to be expected.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Which were about to be turned into ornaments.
They surely didn't deserve the "terrorism" charges.
Kaleva
(36,404 posts)in a fight over territory.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)What is certain is that they would have been executed in cold blood , skinned, and their fur turned into coats.
Thank god they were released and had a chance to living free and happily ever after.
Kaleva
(36,404 posts)It is also known that the average lifespan of a mink in the wild is about 3 years and most succumb to disease, starvation and predators. A large influx of hungry minks into a habitat could have a major impact on the local upland bird, rabbit and waterfowl populations.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)And they can't ever take it back.
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)Aim your weapon at uniformed officers...
but that is different, he is not a Lefty so gets treated as someone above the law.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)It's sickening.
Rex
(65,616 posts)Authoritarians hate Lefty. The pretend to hate Righty too, but you never see them outraged at Righty...just the people in their own party. They didn't make a peep about the LA shooter being a tea party fanatic or the fact that it was a crime again women.
They are why we cannot have nice things on DU.
Only that they are so transparent, they can't hide anymore.
Rex
(65,616 posts)It's like they just don't want to talk about the double standard. No, this is all about minks doncha-know. Sure it is. Yep.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)That I why I don't care about their nonsense anymore lol.
It's soemewhat amusing seeing what they come up with, to defend a non existing theory.
Out of here, to more exciting topics, than hearing wild animal lives don't matter.
Good to see you!
Kali
(55,032 posts)that had so much outrage potential for you!
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Lately, not so much.
Kali
(55,032 posts)Well, in all modesty they aren't hard to miss. Lots of people DUers have seen your schtick.
TheBlackAdder
(28,261 posts).
While I like minks and other animals and once owned a farm that cared for rescue and elderly animals...
Releasing an animal into unknown surroundings might introduce a threat to local fauna. Such as the introduction of Asian Carp into the Mississippi, people releasing fish from Asian Food markets into the Hudson, bugs in furniture, foreign bugs and animals to control other bugs and animals. There might be no natural predators for the minks in the areas where they are released, causing a threat of overpopulation and risks to local wildlife.
Having owned hedgehogs, the African Hedgehog is allowed here, but not the European one. The European Hedgehog can hibernate while the African hedgehog goes into thermal shock under 70 degrees and nature acts as it's own control.
The American Mink is an invasive species which can easily catch and spread the CDV (Canine Distemper Virus), a virus that threatens all wild and domestic canine.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24604545
===
The gist is: Thought must be given to what is released and where they would be released.
.
kcr
(15,329 posts)I think the point in such actions is to damage the farms themselves and put them out of business. The argument that the minks will die misses the point because I don't think the primary intent is to rescue the actual minks themselves. It's shutting down the mink farms. Pointing out that it harms other wildlife might get at least some to reconsider. I hope it does, because the only thing that really makes a difference is systemic change. As long as there is a market and a system that tolerates that market, there will be mink farms.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)The Feds also send in a bunch of Lawyers to make sure that property wrecker 'tree hugger' gets 40 years in the Federal Pen., mandatory sentences for Federal 'anti-terror Laws'
'Crimes' that would, in civil court be massive fines and probably, maybe? a little jail time and years and years of probation.
Those Federal new anti-terror laws are IMO, not used appropriately and are not good laws.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Why are not more people outraged bout this??
KT2000
(20,605 posts)It was all the rage to raise minks and everyone thought they would get rich. Of course that did not happen so they were released by people who gave up on the enterprise. They killed pets and other animals.
Using chemicals as a weapon should be prosecuted to the full extent. I have a feeling the people doing this do not consider the consequences of their actions. Their field of vision is very narrow.
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)the Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act was passed in 2006 by unanimous consent rules, Dennis Kucinich having walked off the floor after delivering his speech charging that the bill would have a chilling affect on free speech.
So in those days of terrah, congress introduced the word terrorism into an act which amended the Animal Enterprise Protection Act of 1992.
Putting the welfare of the released animals and the affected environment aside for a moment, is the outrage at the incendiary language of the bill (Terrorism), or the bill itself? Because I don't recall any discussion of it on DU at the time. I may have missed it or it may have been just one more outrage in a time of never ending outrage, but I don't remember it.