General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsAnd people wonder why I have deep concerns about MDs & their drugs
Pick up a copy of this month's edition of Consumer Reports.
What you don't know about your doctor could hurt you
Botched surgeries, substance abuse, sexual misconduct, doctors on probation who are still allowed to practice medicine (and who do not need to tell you).
Kinda helps a gal or guy figure out why their are regularly scheduled Inet attacks on non-toxic health alternatives which might compete against the gross profiteering of the Medical-Pharmaceutical Industrial Complex, Inc.
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)AxionExcel
(755 posts)The OP is not about angels, but rather about MDs and their often toxic, usually overpriced pills -- and the shocking state of the profession, and the damage they do to patients.
You'll have to check with Consumer Reports on the angels thingy you are concerned about.
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)I'm all for non-toxic solutions to health problems including chiropractic care, certain herbs, and regular meditation, but your phrasing of "non-toxic health alternatives" seems to indicate support for snake oil rather than rigorously tested health solutions or lifestyles that support health.
forest444
(5,902 posts)Like they rigorously tested Vioxx, Celebrex, Crestor, Xarelto, Oxycontin, and so many other drugs that we now know to be more harmful than the condition they were approved to treat?
This isn't to say that all prescription medicine is a problem. But if the FDA approved it from 1990 onward, it's definitely worth taking with a grain of salt - if not avoiding outright.
Because frankly the only thing those FDA grease monkeys are good at testing, is the revolving door into a seven-figure plum job at Big Phama.
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)Without the FDA you get thalidomide babies.
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Everything is worth a grain of salt, especially with the side effects of modern medications, but to dismiss government testing of medication in favor of chakra aligning reiki monkeys armed with magic stones and magnets in their stylish anti-vaxxer spirit bracelets is a travesty.
forest444
(5,902 posts)Because over the past 25 years, other than rubber-stamping Big Pharma's snake oil in hopes of landing a plum job for themselves as a reward, they really haven't done much for us have they now.
Teddy Roosevelt would certainly be disappointed - outraged, actually - at seeing that his once magnificent FDA (the model for such agencies around the world) has basically now become a third world-style influence peddling racket.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)I don't think criticism of A implies acceptance of B. Inferring as such seems irrational.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)HuckleB
(35,773 posts)No matter how much he/she/they deny it.
And I think you know that, too.
Response to AxionExcel (Original post)
rjsquirrel This message was self-deleted by its author.
AxionExcel
(755 posts)I've only noted that there are systematic regularly scheduled attacks on non-toxic health alternatives (and also, it's worth noting, regular attacks on clean, non-toxic food).
For me that systemic pattern of attack raises questions. It should raise questions for others as well.
Viva_La_Revolution
(28,791 posts)No worries
PatSeg
(47,770 posts)in any thread regarding GMOs or Monsanto as well. It tends to be consistent and very predictable. Must be a playbook somewhere, "How to provoke and paint everything in black and white terms, while denigrating the poster's intelligence".
progressoid
(50,020 posts)MisterP
(23,730 posts)longship
(40,416 posts)What's the alternative?
Chiropractic? Homeopathy? Reiki? Acupuncture? Or maybe fucking faith healing! They are all the same! Useless and harmful. None of them do any good whatsoever.
Medicine is based on science, not wishes and hopes. It isn't perfect, but it is the only thing that has evidence that it actually works. Try curing your malaria or your cancer with homeopathy and you will tragically learn the truth, and the lies of the homeopaths, just like all the rest of alternative medicine.
There is no alternative medicine. There is only medicine, based on science.
TheDormouse
(1,168 posts)Placebos can be pretty powerful.
longship
(40,416 posts)There are no placebo effects beyond non-specific symptoms. Placebos do not, and cannot, cure disease. Any argument to the contrary is abject rubbish.
So take your placebo medicine when you are dying. It may help your perception of pain, but it will not stop the progress of your disease.
That's why there is always a placebo arm in drug trials. One wants to factor out those factors which have no contribution to a cure.
So stop ringing that cockamamie placebo bell. Placebos do not work against any disease.
Here: https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-placebo-effect/
TheDormouse
(1,168 posts)That's the very reason why placebos are included in controlled trials!
A Simple Game
(9,214 posts)Why do you assume everything people go to a doctor for is a disease? Placebos are the most common cure for depression in use today. As for chiropractic and acupuncture, I know many people have had very good results with for various maladies. Placebo effect? Maybe, but it works for them so why should you care? How about diet and exercise? Are they completely useless for high cholesterol and obesity not to mention many other things? How about something as simple as using aloe on a burn?
Don't be so short sighted, drugs are prescribed for much more that just diseases and often unnecessarily.
longship
(40,416 posts)That would be called anecdotal evidence, which in medicine is no evidence whatsoever.
It is like the rain dance fallacy. I danced and I danced. And eventually the rains came.Of course, the rains eventually would come whether one dances or not.
It is science that informs medicine, not lunatic magical thinking. What in the Sam Hell are subluxations (chiropractic)? Is there any science behind such a thing?
So how does acupuncture work? Simple. It doesn't. That is other than the fact that one is sticking needles into ones flesh. And how does that do anything other than inflict more pain? Oh! That's right. There's Qi (spelt backwards is "crap" .
And, oh fucking dear! Then there's homeopathy, which is as close to doing nothing as one can get. You are going to travel to a place where there is malaria? Here, let me give you nothing for it. You have cancer? Don't bother with that doctor. Let me give you nothing. Homeopathy is nothing. I cannot see any rational person supporting such a ridiculous concept.
Science informs medicine. Get used to that.
A Simple Game
(9,214 posts)Again you seem fixed on disease, what disease does a chiropractor claim to be able to cure? Ever hear of massage therapy? Think it works for it's intended purpose? As for acupuncture, I don't know if it inflicts more pain or not, never tried it. But others have for centuries and seem to have positive results for what ails them.
I noticed you ignored my reference to placebos being the go to cure for depression, why is that?
From your "You know people?" I see from your insult you know you have already lost the argument and have nothing left to contribute, thanks for the acknowledgment.
longship
(40,416 posts)And again, placebo is, by definition, a null effect. That is why all medical studies include a placebo branch. Because placebos do nothing whatsoever, beyond the intervention of the doctor, who if they do nothing, leaves the intervention as the only variable. That means that the actual intervention can be measured against the null hypothesis -- that the intervention does no better than doing nothing.
Medical research is not easy. It certainly must ignore anecdotal evidence because biology is a very messy affair. The placebo effect is important enough (and yet impotent) that it is the measure by which advances in medicine rise to being useful.
Placebo medicine is, by definition, useless.
longship
(40,416 posts)What are subluxations?
And why do people think that folks thousands of years in the past knew more about biology and medicine than today's scientists. Could it be: Ancient Chinese secrets! How is that a rational argument?
Pray tell!
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)If they know it's a sugar pill, it does nothing. So technically Longships claim is correct.
TheDormouse
(1,168 posts)by definition
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I'll try to stop doing it too.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)PatSeg
(47,770 posts)that we are now dealing with "Medicine based on profit" more than "science" these days, which can be very harmful to one's health. The Hippocratic Oath, "First do no harm" seems to have been replaced with excessive drugs and invasive treatments that profit providers, medical equipment companies, and pharmaceutical companies.
When the treatment is more harmful than the disease, that is not science OR it is really bad science.
longship
(40,416 posts)I'll wait patiently for your list. BTW, do not dare cite cancer.
That is too personal for me and I feel like I'm being baited. There is plenty of documented evidence out there if you are really interested, which I don't think you are.
Do not feel that it is necessary to respond.
longship
(40,416 posts)I apologize if I offended you personally. If you are a cancer survivor, I assure you that I have no intention to offend.
However, it is my position that placebo medicine -- and I use that terminology loosely -- is abject quackery.
Chiropractic, acupuncture, reiki and other healing non-touches, Qi (which when spelled backwards is "crap" , and fucking homeopathy which by their own definition is nothing whatsoever, are not medicine. And don't get me started about so-called "energy medicine" (that lunatic Depak Chopra!).
Medicine works because it is based on science and biology. Any counter arguments should be dismissed. There is no magic medicine. And sometimes real medicine involves invasive and uncomfortable procedures. It is only a fool who would think that physicians routinely do such things merely to fill their bank accounts.
If you are a cancer survivor, you should know that.
My best to you.
ProfessorGAC
(65,427 posts)And wholly unnecessary
AxionExcel
(755 posts)...and so I am providing much-needed balance. The Medical-Pharmaceutical Industry's relentless attacks to try and stomp out competition are indeed "willfully provocative" and "wholly unnecessary."
As Consumer Reports makes plain, they really should clean up their own house.
Iggo
(47,597 posts)TheDormouse
(1,168 posts)Somehow I have missed out on all these regularly scheduled systematic attacks.
Maybe I spend too much time on DU.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)And doesn't appreciate DUers who want to regulate things so people are protected from them.
AxionExcel
(755 posts)And so you imagine that you know what I think, even though I have not said it?
Get a clue: Woo is Taboo on DU. Please try to control your psychic ideation.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)It's why you've been banned from DU under previous usernames.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)HuckleB
(35,773 posts)TheDormouse
(1,168 posts)Fantastic read that I heartily recommend.
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)And this wasn't just a DDS - this fella was board certified and had extra training to be a dr death.
"Patients of a dentists office in Oklahoma have been warned that they may have been exposed to HIV and hepatitis B and C, thanks to the faulty sterilization practices of Dr. W. Scott Harrington. Officials from the Tulsa Health Department warned 7,000 patients that they may have contracted the viruses.
One of Harringtons patients tested positive for both HIV and hepatitis C after a having a dental procedure done , prompting the Oklahoma Board of Dentistry to conduct a surprise inspection of the practice, earlier in the month."
...
- See more at: http://hiphopwired.com/2013/03/29/oklahoma-dentist-exposed-7000-patients-to-hiv-hepatitis-by-using-dirty-instruments/#sthash.7nJYtcG9.dpuf
Iggo
(47,597 posts)Homeopathy, not so much.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)I have an example of a dentist harming people. That means that ALL of the "medical-industrial complex" is trying to kill us. It's only logical!!
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)The most monstrous monster is the monster with noble feelings
― Fyodor Dostoyevsky
And the self-righteous and all-knowing have brought us so much...
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)My handler forgot to provide me a copy, and he's late on my paycheck too.
Moostache
(9,897 posts)The old phrase "can't see the forest for the trees" is apt throughout our pathetic society these days.
Military-Industrial Complex
Medical-Industrial Complex
Prison-Industrial Complex
Agro-Industrial Complex
The problem is not a "complex", nor is it the leading hyphenation term du jour, the real issue is Industrial societal organization on unrestrained capitalist terms. Greed, pure and simple. Greed, Gordon Gecko notwithstanding, is definitely NOT good. Not good for the poor. Not good for the existence of a middle class. Not good for the powerless. Not good for life not called "human". Not good for 99.9% of actual human life. Greed is the inevitable driver of unrestrained capitalism.
This is not coincidence, nor was it unpredictable. Its certainly no mystery to anyone older than 3.
What we are seeing in the 21st century is the logical and ONLY outcome possible when industry is allowed free reign over all facets of life on this planet during the twilight of the 20th century.
Corporate externalization.
Repeal of Glass-Steagall.
NAFTA.
World Bank.
G8.
Practical de-funding of SEC.
Revolving door at Treasury from Wall Street.
Obfuscation on climate change.
And on and on and on and on...
There are people here who care.
There are even some on the opposition party side who understand and care as well.
There just don't seem to be enough to stop the wheel at this point...every day starts to feel like getting up after beating beaten down further than the day before.
Its depressing on a global scale.
tkmorris
(11,138 posts)There are always those who put profit above principle, are incompetent, or the rare few who are outright malevalent. That is unfortunate but it is a part of life. Caveat emptor, and all that.
The trouble is that if you need the service they provide, there is no superior alternative. If you need your car repaired you might quite rightly worry about the competence and/or honesty of a mechanic picked sight unseen from the phone book, but choosing instead to have a random person off the local street corner do the work instead is pure folly. A competent mechanic is ALWAYS going to be better than some clown with automobile healing crystal pyramids. Medicine is no different in this regard. The trick is to find the right doctor, not to dismiss all medicine and look for answers elsewhere.
And no, it is not fair to compare criticism of conventional medicine here with the scrutiny given to homeopathy or the like. Say what you will about conventional medicine; the fact remains that it DOES work. Perhaps not as well as you would like, and it is not without nefarious individuals practicing it, but it DOES work. Homeopathy does not. It CANNOT. The two things are not comparable, and it is absurd to claim that they are. The same goes for the vast majority of "alternative" therapies. There may well be a few (out of tens of thousands) that have some positive benefit but I can assure you that if they do they will not remain alternative for long. That's how science works.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Not
Madmiddle
(459 posts)Doctors would rather write perscriptions versus advicing you on your diet and exercise.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)chlamydia away.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Obviously this is when its appropriate, I don't know of any doctor who would recommend you run track on bad knees, etc. But every doctor that I've seen tries everything they can to avoid writing prescriptions if they feel they shouldn't be necessary.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)HuckleB
(35,773 posts)TexasBushwhacker
(20,256 posts)There is a big problems with doctors are unwilling to testify against each other. Nevertheless, we live longer now than we lived decades ago . Poor people without good medical care die younger. Our healthcare system may not be perfect, but for the people with insurance it's pretty good.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)of the overall health care system.
Yeah, there's things that could be done even better. More humanely.
There's a shitload of people working on that right now, as well.
And society needs a little wrenching-on too. This country has yet to have a meaningful dialog on end of life care, quality of life, etc. It's apparently a thing that just scares the shit out of us, and induces very real human and capital costs for just the last two months of life for an enormous number of people.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)I prefer real medicine over the bullshit you fawn over.
Iggo
(47,597 posts)Woo-juice is science because a doctor killed somebody that time.
It has to be true because I want it to be true.
AxionExcel
(755 posts)I'm by no means opposed to medical science, and have both seen and experienced tremendous good come from it. Likewise I have seen tremendous good come from non-toxic alternative health approaches.
But as Consumer Reports makes plain this month, there are widespread serious problems in the Medical Industrial Complex, Inc. Beyond the statistics and stories of caution the magazine presents, I should add that I personally have witnessed friends and family not only enjoy great blessings but also suffer horrible debiltating health consequences because of botched medical industrial systems and personnel.
So it's a mixed bag out there. In my view, health is a personal responsibility, and that extends beyond diet and exercise to wise selection of health practitioners.
Regular bashing of non-toxic forms of health care is a staple on the Net. That regular bashing or bullying - I feel - must be regarded in the light of Corporate Competition for Money Bucks. Because that is, alas, the driving engine of the Medical-Pharmaceutical Industrial Complex.
That's why I start these threads. To tell the other side of the story, and to put the bashing or non-toxic health care and non-toxic food in the proper context of competition for consumer mediBucks.
Iggo
(47,597 posts)...doesn't mean that homeopathy isn't complete bullshit.
Because it is.
Complete bullshit.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)arikara
(5,562 posts)We used to be able to talk about stuff without all this. I'm going to go through this thread, put a bunch on ignore then post something about energy healing.
dembotoz
(16,866 posts)GeorgeGist
(25,327 posts)and doesn't cure meningitis.