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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsFacts about Libya under Gaddafi that you probably did not know about !
http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-884508
Here are some Facts you probably do not know about Libya under Muammar Gaddafi:
There was no electricity bills in Libya; electricity is free for all its citizens.
There was no interest on loans, banks in Libya are state-owned and loans given to all its citizens at 0% interest by law.
If a Libyan is unable to find employment after graduation, the state would pay the average salary of the profession as if he or she is employed until employment is found.
Should Libyans want to take up a farming career, they receive farm land, a house, equipment, seed and livestock to kick start their farms this was all for free.
Gaddafi carried out the worlds largest irrigation project, known as the Great Man-Made River project, to make water readily available throughout the desert country.
A home was considered a human right in Libya. (In Qaddafis Green Book it states: The house is a basic need of both the individual and the family, therefore it should not be owned by others.)
All newlyweds in Libya would receive 60,000 Dinar (US$ 50,000 ) by the government to buy their first apartment so to help start a family.
A portion of Libyan oil sales is or was credited directly to the bank accounts of all Libyan citizens.
A mother who gives birth to a child would receive US $5,000.
When a Libyan buys a car, the government would subsidizes 50% of the price.
The price of petrol in Libya was $0.14 per liter.
For $ 0.15, a Libyan local could purchase 40 loaves of bread.
Education and medical treatments was all free in Libya. Libya can boast one of the finest health care systems in the Arab and African World. All people have access to doctors, hospitals, clinics and medicines, completely free of charge.
If Libyans cannot find the education or medical facilities they need in Libya, the government would fund them to go abroad for it not only free but they get US $2,300/month accommodation and car allowance.
25% of Libyans have a university degree. Before Gaddafi only 25% of Libyans were literate. Today the figure is 87%.
Libya had no external debt and its reserves amount to $150 billion though much of this is now frozen globally.
Gaddafi wrote, They want to do to Libya what they did to Iraq and what they are itching to do to Iran. They want to take back the oil, which was nationalized by these countrys revolutions. They want to re-establish military bases that were shut down by the revolutions and to install client regimes that will subordinate the countrys wealth and labor to imperialist corporate interests. All else is lies and deception.
From wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Libya_under_Muammar_Gaddafi
Normalization of international relations (20032010)[edit]
In December 2003, Libya announced that it had agreed to reveal and end its programs to develop weapons of mass destruction and to renounce terrorism, and Gaddafi made significant strides in normalizing relations with western nations. He received various Western European leaders as well as many working-level and commercial delegations, and made his first trip to Western Europe in 15 years when he traveled to Brussels in April 2004. Libya responded in good faith to legal cases brought against it in U.S. courts for terrorist acts that predate its renunciation of violence. Claims for compensation in the Lockerbie bombing, LaBelle disco bombing, and UTA 772 bombing cases are ongoing. The U.S. rescinded Libya's designation as a state sponsor of terrorism in June 2006. In late 2007, Libya was elected by the General Assembly to a nonpermanent seat on the United Nations Security Council for the 20082009 term.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)"install client regimes that will subordinate the countrys wealth and labor to imperialist corporate interests"
That's all of American history, summed up in a single sentence.
PufPuf23
(8,859 posts)I do not support Gadaffi because of the cult of personality, history of terrorism, and family stranglehold on leadership.
That said, Gadaffi wanted what was best for Libya and wanted a fair place in the modern world for Libya and its people. The religionists in Islam were also his enemy and domestic threat.
The western leaders that destroyed Libya knew exactly what they were doing and planned for western trans-national corporations to benefit from the easy profit from disaster capitalism.
Nitram
(22,985 posts)He had dreams of ruling an empire. Libya was not his first concern.
SCantiGOP
(13,879 posts)Libya was a workers paradise.
What a load of crap.
CentralCoaster
(1,163 posts)We get sicker every day.
snort
(2,334 posts)pangaia
(24,324 posts)It is called that for a reason...
Was Naomi Klein the first to use that term?
puffy socks
(1,473 posts)Gaddafi is a prime example of a sociopath. Nobody loved Gaddafi more than Gaddafi.
PufPuf23
(8,859 posts)That is still no excuse for using covert funding and ops to destabilize a relatively stable and blessed country and then bombing the people and infrastructure and leaving the mess to radical Islamists and drooling trans-national corporations.
Many Libyans and other Africans thought highly of Gadaffi.
The Islamic radical rebels we supported used the opportunity to practice genocide on the black Libyans and black African guest workers.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)due to the "intervention" ; usually by many times over.
Nitram
(22,985 posts)...punish rebellious eastern cities with a column of tanks, and an air force? There was no perfect solution in Libya. The US did what it could, and continues to work to unify the country against a worse external force: ISIS.
frylock
(34,825 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"Funny how sufferring (sic) is actually much worse due to the "intervention" ; usually by many times over..."
You of course, have an objective and peer-reviewed source to support your allegation, yes? Or (and I find this a wee bit more likely), you don't have the source material, but felt compelled to state as much due to the bias you allow to control you anyways.
Try 'Utopia in Power' by Heller and 'Rise and Fall of the Great Powers' by Kennedy-- both (both being objective, relevant and citing source material) seem to undermine your unsupported allegation. Actually, I'd urge to read. Anything peer-reviewed and/or objective. It helps to learn doing do (though it also shatters the biases held by weak minds, so there may be a win/lose scenario approaching)
uhnope
(6,419 posts)R U effin kidding? Yr OP is a puff (or pufpuf) piece to Gadaffi & now you admit he's a sociopath?
WTF?
You might as well go Godwin and make a list of all the ways Hitler helped Germany--and Nazi supporters for years would say "he was good for the economy.
It's one thing to question the support for removing him as the dictator because of the instability, and another to post a stupid list of happy thoughts about Gaddafi's dictatorship.
MADem
(135,425 posts)awake, without anaesthesia, is not a nice guy.
Those gold revolvers were not decorative.
And the rapes and murders? How can anyone gloss over that with a "Hey, they got FREE ELECTRICITY!" argument?
Eman al-Obeidi was the first woman to announce to the press that she had been kidnapped and raped by the Gaddafi militia. In the wake of her confession, more stories emerged, stories of women who had been sexually assaulted throughout the mountain regions, especially in Zuwara, Misrata, Nafusa, and Bani Walid. Gaddafis strategy was to devalue and humiliate not only the women, but by extension, the tribes to which they belonged. In Libyan society, rape affects not only the victim, but also her family and community, triggering a violent retaliation based on family honor. This was a central argument for the ICC arrest warrants issued against Gaddafi and his second son, Saif al-Islam.
At the time, Mustapha Shalgam was Foreign Minister of Libya, and then became the Libyan ambassador to the U.N. After the death of Gaddafi, he was able to shed light on the crimes of the leaders family. Shalgam admitted to being a man of the regime in other words, Gaddafis personal spokesman on all fronts. He negotiated both with members of the revolutionary committee and the tribes, and had much interaction with Gaddafis sons.
When asked about systematic rape in the Gaddafi regime, he told with an emotional voice the story of Safiaya, a girl in her early 20s who, he says, was kidnapped and kept in a basement in a compound in Tripoli for five years. She was repeatedly raped and beaten by Muammar Gaddafi himself, who would urinate on her head and call her a whore. Indeed, Shalgam describes the Libyan leader as a tyrant who eliminated every political institution, ruled with an iron fist, and terrorized his people so completely that no one would dare to socially or politically oppose to him. Further, he says, Gaddafi was an egomaniac and a narcissist who saw himself as the leader not only of the Arab world but also of the entire African continentand a control freak who pitted his own family members against one other, casting them as actors in a dramatic narrative more convoluted than Richard III.
Gaddafi's son Saif had to play the moderate, Shalgam says, befriending such Western leaders as Tony Blair and Silvio Berlusconi. But Saifs true nature was revealed in a televised threat that blood would be running in the streets of Libya. Ambassador Shalgam recalled his longstanding conflict with Saif, who saw himself as a future leader of Libya and wanted to control the foreign ministry. Still today, Saif does not regret giving orders to slaughter protesters, Shalgam says.
Another son, Al Saadi Gaddafi, a supposedly conservative Islamist and a football fanatic, was accused of harassing and jailing a fellow football player who refused his carnal advances. Shalgam almost cried when remembering another Libyan football coach named Basheer Al-Rryani, who was murdered in the 1980s; Libyas interim leaders have approved an investigation into Saadis involvement in the case.
Then there was Hannibal, Gaddafis fourth son, whose violence was legendary. Hannibal was insane, complicated, Shalgam recounted. He tortured people. He had his own prison in Tripoli. Indeed, he was once arrested in Switzerland on suspicion of having beaten two of his maids. (Swiss authorities quickly dropped the charges and released Hannibal, sparking international outrage.) Muammar Gaddafi responded by shutting down the local subsidiaries of Swiss companies Nestle and ABB, withdrawing billions from Swiss banks, refusing visas to Swiss citizens and arresting two Swiss businessmen on trumped-up charges.....
Awwww, never mind these pesky details: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/02/15/libya-struggles-with-mass-gaddafi-era-rape-crimes.html
smh.
Glassunion
(10,201 posts)yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)the one-sentence American history!
Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)no alternative economic systems in her world! That is too complex for her Third-Wayed mind.
scscholar
(2,902 posts)to those poor people.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Wilms
(26,795 posts)PufPuf23
(8,859 posts)Gadaffi cooperated with GWB Administration regards to terrorism.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/sep/03/cia-libya-terror-suspect-renditions
The CIA worked closely with Muammar Gaddafi's intelligence services in the rendition of terrorist suspects including Abdel-Hakim Belhaj, the rebel commander in Tripoli, according to documents found in Tripoli.
The documents, found in the offices of the former head of Libyan intelligence Musa Kusa, also show that MI6 gave Gaddafi's regime information on Libyan dissidents living in the UK.
The files, uncovered by Human Rights Watch, provide details of the close relationship between western intelligence services, including MI6 and the CIA, and the ousted dictator's regime.
Two documents from March 2004 appear to be American correspondence to Libyan officials to arrange the rendition of Belhaj, the former leader of the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group, a now-dissolved militant group with links to al-Qaida.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Libya_under_Muammar_Gaddafi
In early 2011, a civil war broke out in the context of the wider "Arab Spring". The anti-Gaddafi forces formed a committee named the National Transitional Council, on 27 February 2011. It was meant to act as an interim authority in the rebel-controlled areas. After a number of atrocities were committed by the government,[5][6] with the threat of further bloodshed,[7] a multinational coalition led by NATO forces intervened on 21 March 2011 with the aim to protect civilians against attacks by the government's forces.[8] At the same time, the International Criminal Court issued an arrest warrant against Gaddafi and his entourage on 27 June 2011. Gaddafi was ousted from power in the wake of the fall of Tripoli to the rebel forces on 20 August 2011, although pockets of resistance held by forces loyal to Gaddafi's government held out for another two months, especially in Gaddafi's hometown of Sirte, which he declared the new capital of Libya on 1 September 2011.[9] The fall of the last remaining cities under pro-Gaddafi control and Sirte's capture on 20 October 2011, followed by the subsequent killing of Gaddafi, marked the end of the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya.
scscholar
(2,902 posts)started years before.
ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)SammyWinstonJack
(44,130 posts)1939
(1,683 posts)He quit trying to confront the US and started playing nice. One of the few good things about the Iraq invasion.
FLPanhandle
(7,107 posts)They must have had their reasons. It couldn't have been all rainbows and puppies there under Gaddafi.
TBF
(32,160 posts)primarily the ones who will benefit from the crumbs of imperialism (and the owners of course who call the shots).
brooklynite
(95,070 posts)Muammar Gaddafi was inside, sitting on a red massage chair, holding a remote control. He looked imperial. I took a step forward to kiss his hand, which he extended halfheartedly while looking away. Where are Faiza and Salma? he asked Mabrouka in an irritated voice. Theyre coming. I was dumbfounded. Not even a glance at me. I didnt exist. Several minutes went by; I didnt know what to do with myself. He finally stood up and asked: Where is your family from?
From Zliten.
His face remained expressionless. Get her ready! he commanded, and left the room. Mabrouka motioned for me to sit down on a bench in a corner of the room, which was set up to look like a living room. The other two women came in, at ease, as if they were at home. Faiza smiled at me, approached me, and unceremoniously held on to my chin. Dont you worry, little Soraya! she said, and then laughed and quickly left. Mabrouka was on the phone giving instructions for someones arrival, perhaps another girl like me, since I heard her say: Bring her here.
mainer
(12,038 posts)Because the mass rape reports, supposedly ordered by Gaddafi, turned out to be largely false, I wonder if the "Gaddafi raped girls" is another one of those false allegations.
Nato leaders, opposition groups and the media have produced a stream of stories since February 15 claiming the Gaddafi regime has ordered mass rapes, used foreign mercenaries and employed helicopters against civilian protesters.
An investigation by Amnesty International has failed to find evidence for these human rights violations and in many cases has discredited or cast doubt on them.
It also found indications that on several occasions Benghazi rebels appeared to have knowingly made false claims or manufactured evidence.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10734384
PufPuf23
(8,859 posts)Last edited Thu May 12, 2016, 07:02 PM - Edit history (1)
a hell on earth because of western intervention?
I did some quick research on that woman and book and it smells of an opportunistic piece of propaganda for the masses.
I believe that Libya would have been better off without Gadaffi, a dictator and head of a family cult of personality, who was not going to let go easily.
What occurred is afar worse case for Libya than if Gadaffi had remained in control for his natural life.
The women of Libya were far better off prior to the radical Islamists that now have violent control of Libya.
The social gains and benefits, no matter how incomplete, are gone.
IMO the western interventionists did not seriously have the good of Libya in mind when backing radical Islamists and then interventing by a bombing campaign to destroy the modernizing country for all intents and purposes.
Here is your hero:
Hillary Clinton 2016 - "We came we saw he died" Laughing About Gadhafi Libya
"
This video is unavailable.
Funny that and just today.
On Edit: Cool the video is back at the same youtube address. I was a paranoid CT. Oops.
arikara
(5,562 posts)We came
We saw
He died
hahahahaha
That video shows the true person, and it literally turns my stomach.
pangaia
(24,324 posts)What a disgrace.
I am ashamed.
On second thought, no I am not.
I have nothing to do with her.
Response to PufPuf23 (Reply #23)
Post removed
PufPuf23
(8,859 posts)Can you source more?
Hillary Emails Reveal True Motive for Libya Intervention
http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2016/01/06/new-hillary-emails-reveal-true-motive-for-libya-intervention/
PufPuf23
(8,859 posts)newthinking
(3,982 posts)We have abused our currency terribly.
robbob
(3,546 posts)I wrote in the "Michael Moore says he will vote for Hillary" thread that IMHO Hillary has a lot of blood on her hands. Next time I logged into DU I had a notification that "You have been unfriended by 4 people".
some pretty thin skinned worshipers out there.
Somebody replied "Well then I guess Obama does, too", to which I replied, yes, yes he does:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1944352
which I ended with "wouldn't it be nice if we could elect a president who would wage peace instead of war?"
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)It's the only time I've ever seen that. Maybe the world wasn't "unfriending"?
McKim
(2,412 posts)Thanks for this photo and thanks for this story and this thread. Americans sorely need realistic information like this to understand what the US is doing in Lybia and Syria and Iraq. This is why I cannot vote for her. I am eternally grateful for this story and for the solidarity on most of these posts. This is so important. Brown lives matter to me in the Middle East!
deathrind
(1,786 posts)We came.
We saw.
He died.
Laugh...
She really is a sociopath.
ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)FLPanhandle
(7,107 posts)Then bigger and bigger demonstrations of thousands of people before the government started firing on them.
Obviously a large number of Libyans wanted him gone.
ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)...and labor to imperialist corporate interests.
All else is lies and deception.
How do we know that it wasn't our own government who incited such protests and violence?
polly7
(20,582 posts)Numerous offers for peace and to prevent the carnage were made by Qaddafi and rejected. And yes, the west did fund and even train Libyan 'rebels' to 'protest' and force the Libyan gov't to react. Peaceful protesters with legitimate concerns were used as an excuse to introduce the barbarians who hung Qaddafi loyalists in the street, burned them alive, kidnap, rape and torture them along with Africans who'd been let in to Libya to work for decades.
Libya was one of the '7 countries in 5 years' on the hit-list.
I still remember the glee here when the 30 some billion he'd been using to support the independence of the rest of Africa and improve the lives of, was frozen by Obama. It was rah-rahed that his 'personal wealth' was being taken - complete bullshit just like the rest of it all.
FLPanhandle
(7,107 posts)"How do we know that it wasn't our own government who incited such protests and violence? " It's possible but not likely. Occam's Razor would conclude thousands of people didn't like Gaddafi without needing some secret Obama Administration paying thousands of people to demonstrate.
However, if you are one who sees the US government as the source of all things, I doubt logic will convince you otherwise.
I'll go with conclusion that hundreds of thousands of protesters had reasons beyond some Obama administration plot.
ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)newthinking
(3,982 posts)The more you dig into events in the middle east the more you learn that what we see is a narrative that engenders our interests, not really the facts.
http://www.ibtimes.com/who-are-real-libyan-opposition-277421
leveymg
(36,418 posts)provocateurs attacked police stations and government buildings. Cops shot some attackers. At funerals unidentified snipers killed some mourners who attacked cops again. Then gun battles and further sniper attacks on both sides. More agitation in the mosques next Friday. Instant civil war. Same concurrent chain of causation in Syria.
polly7
(20,582 posts)conforming to their radical goals. Of course, the west knew which ones of these to cultivate, fund and train for the 'protests'. In contrast to the hundreds of thousands who showed up to support him from the start, these western funded (bloodthirsty rebels) trickled in, as they bombed police headquarters and burned down gov't buildings. Yet the Libyan gov't was expected to do nothing.
yourpaljoey
(2,166 posts)newthinking
(3,982 posts)"organic" internal movements. They are agitated often from external groups who have time and again embraced some really bad guys in order to achieve their goals.
polly7
(20,582 posts)Wilms
(26,795 posts)FlatBaroque
(3,160 posts)FLPanhandle
(7,107 posts)Which is what some are doing.
FLPanhandle
(7,107 posts)Seventy-five percent of the people are against him, said one dissident, who was in the vanguard of the protest movement that was crushed in Tripoli last month and who agreed to a furtive meeting with journalists in a downtown cafe. But there are some people who really do love him.
I'm sure many people supported him, but it's obvious many people didn't like him. I'm saying it's not like he had some utopia there where the everyone wanted him. They had reasons beyond, Oh the CIA paid them not to like Gaddafi.
Wilms
(26,795 posts)At which point Hillary came, saw, and Ghaddafi died. Well, was sodomized with a bayonet according to reports. But we know all too well that arming militants can have consequences.
A lot of people don't like Obama and didn't like bush*. Maybe some country should arm our resident militants. What do you think??
FLPanhandle
(7,107 posts)If dictators provided a peaceful way to leave office, then the population wouldn't use non-peaceful methods. That's the fate of all Dictators and President's for Life. Their life can be short if that's the only way to remove them
BTW, we arm ourselves more than enough.
Wilms
(26,795 posts)You're forgetting France, Quater, UAE, NATO and the US.
How are things in Libya now?
FLPanhandle
(7,107 posts)However, no one has listed any reasons why thousands of people were quick to rise up against him if Libya was such a utopia. Instead of coming back with valid issues with his regime, it's a simplistic....oooo, it must have been Obama / Hillary / CIA. Which is music to those who see the US behind everything bad in the world, but not very convincing to anyone else logically looking at the situation.
Wilms
(26,795 posts)There's a concept. And the only ones saying the US is behind everything bad in the world is people claiming that others say that. I blame the US for everything bad in the world that the US has done. See the diff??
FLPanhandle
(7,107 posts)However, I don't believe that the US involvement was the primary reason hundreds of thousands of people rose up against the Libyan government. You give them far too much credit. If the US had that power, Reagan would have used it long ago.
Looking at the real factors is more work than saying CIA though.
Wilms
(26,795 posts)Regime change is not a good enterprise. And I am sure all the situations are complicated. But they were stable and prosperous and looking to some kind of a N. African banking system that pissed off TPTB. As happened in Iraq. As happened here, some argue, to Kennedy.
arikara
(5,562 posts)A lot of people here wanted to see Bush gone for 8 very long years. Before that, I remember how badly a lot of other people wanted Bill Clinton gone, bad enough to impeach him.
And we finally got rid of Harper here in Canada which we managed without blowing up the infrastructure of the country.
FLPanhandle
(7,107 posts)It's easier to say it was an Obama administration plot than to look at legitimate reasons why people demonstrated in the first place.
polly7
(20,582 posts)make them independent from predatory austerity and the IMF and keep out AFRICOM and the foreign military bases and their capability to do what they always do in countries they 'protect'. He'd also created the amazing Great Man-Made River Project, a fantastic water delivery system that had changed lives of Libyans all across the country. Bombed by NATO. https://humanrightsinvestigations.org/2011/07/27/great-man-made-river-nato-bombs/
U4ikLefty
(4,012 posts)We were wating for an excuse.
LonePirate
(13,448 posts)ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)(and even higher than Saudi Arabia, for example).
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)PufPuf23
(8,859 posts)and roll your eyes and one can assume giggle.
ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)KamaAina
(78,249 posts)in which someone claimed in all seriousness that Baltimore was just like North Korea. Srsly.
ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)polly7
(20,582 posts)Counterpunch
Saturday, Oct 24, 2015
In 1967 Colonel Gaddafi inherited one of the poorest nations in Africa; by the time he was assassinated, he had transformed Libya into Africas richest nation. Prior to the US-led bombing campaign in 2011, Libya had the highest Human Development Index, the lowest infant mortality and the highest life expectancy in all of Africa.
Today, Libya is a failed state. Western military intervention has caused all of the worst-scenarios: Western embassies have all left, the South of the country has become a haven for ISIS terrorists, and the Northern coast a center of migrant trafficking. Egypt, Algeria and Tunisia have all closed their borders with Libya. This all occurs amidst a backdrop of widespread rape, assassinations and torture that complete the picture of a state that is failed to the bone.
The Basic Peoples Congress (BPC), or Mutamar shaʿbi asāsi was essentially Libyas functional equivalent of the House of Commons in the United Kingdom or the House of Representatives in the United States. However, Libyas Peoples Congress was not comprised merely of elected representatives who discussed and proposed legislation on behalf of the people; rather, the Congress allowed all Libyans to directly participate in this process. Eight hundred Peoples Congresses were set up across the country and all Libyans were free to attend and shape national policy and make decisions over all major issues including budgets, education, industry, and the economy.
In 2009, Mr. Gaddafi invited the New York Times to Libya to spend two weeks observing the nations direct democracy. The New York Times, that has traditionally been highly critical of Colonel Gaddafis democratic experiment, conceded that in Libya, the intention was that everyone is involved in every decision Tens of thousands of people take part in local committee meetings to discuss issues and vote on everything from foreign treaties to building schools.
The fundamental difference between western democratic systems and the Libyan Jamahiriyas direct democracy is that in Libya all citizens were allowed to voice their views directly not in one parliament of only a few hundred wealthy politicians but in hundreds of committees attended by tens of thousands of ordinary citizens. Far from being a military dictatorship, Libya under Mr. Gaddafi was Africas most prosperous democracy.
Today, after US intervention, Libya is home to the worlds largest loose arms cache, and its porous borders are routinely transited by a host of heavily armed non-state actors including Tuareg separatists, jihadists who forced Malis national military from Timbuktu and increasingly ISIS militiamen led by former US ally Abdelhakim Belhadj.
http://axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/Article_71969.shtml
(The 'imminent genocide' was a bunch of made up lies, just as were the 'viagra for rape claims'.)
ieoeja
(9,748 posts)polly7
(20,582 posts)Libya Table of Contents
The remaking of Libyan society that Qadhafi envisioned and to which he devoted his energies after the early 1970s formally began in 1973 with a so-called cultural or popular revolution. The revolution was designed to combat bureaucratic inefficiency, lack of public interest and participation in the subnational governmental system, and problems of national political coordination. In an attempt to instill revolutionary fervor into his compatriots and to involve large numbers of them in political affairs, Qadhafi urged them to challenge traditional authority and to take over and run government organs themselves. The instrument for doing this was the "people's committee." Within a few months, such committees were found all across Libya. They were functionally and geographically based and eventually became responsible for local and regional administration.
People's committees were established in such widely divergent organizations as universities, private business firms, government bureaucracies, and the broadcast media. Geographically based committees were formed at the governorate, municipal, and zone (lowest) levels. Seats on the people's committees at the zone level were filled by direct popular election; members so elected could then be selected for service at higher levels. By mid-1973 estimates of the number of people's committees ranged above 2,000.
In the scope of their administrative and regulatory tasks and the method of their members' selection, the people's committees embodied the concept of direct democracy that Qadhafi propounded in the first volume of The Green Book, which appeared in 1976. The same concept lay behind proposals to create a new political structure composed of "people's congresses." The centerpiece of the new system was the General People's Congress (GPC), a national representative body intended to replace the RCC.
The new political order took shape in March 1977 when the GPC, at Qadhafi's behest, adopted the "Declaration of the Establishment of the People's Authority" and proclaimed the Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya. The term jamahiriya is difficult to translate, but American scholar Lisa Anderson has suggested "peopledom" or "state of the masses" as a reasonable approximation of Qadhafi's concept that the people should govern themselves free of any constraints, especially those of the modern bureaucratic state. The GPC also adopted resolutions designating Qadhafi as its general secretary and creating the General Secretariat of the GPC, comprising the remaining members of the defunct RCC. It also appointed the General People's Committee, which replaced the Council of Ministers, its members now called secretaries rather than ministers.
All legislative and executive authority was vested in the GPC. This body, however, delegated most of its important authority to its general secretary and General Secretariat and to the General People's Committee. Qadhafi, as general secretary of the GPC, remained the primary decision maker, just as he had been when chairman of the RCC. In turn, all adults had the right and duty to participate in the deliberation of their local Basic People's Congress (BPC), whose decisions were passed up to the GPC for consideration and implementation as national policy. The BPCs were in theory the repository of ultimate political authority and decision making, being the embodiment of what Qadhafi termed direct "people's power." The 1977 declaration and its accompanying resolutions amounted to a fundamental revision of the 1969 constitutional proclamation, especially with respect to the structure and organization of the government at both national and subnational levels.
Continuing to revamp Libya's political and administrative structure, Qadhafi introduced yet another element into the body politic. Beginning in 1977, "revolutionary committees" were organized and assigned the task of "absolute revolutionary supervision of people's power"; that is, they were to guide the people's committees, raise the general level of political consciousness and devotion to revolutionary ideals, and guard against deviation and opposition in the BPCs. Filled with politically astute zealots, the ubiquitous revolutionary committees in 1979 assumed control of BPC elections. Although they were not official government organs, the revolutionary committees became another mainstay of the domestic political scene. As with the people's committees and other administrative innovations since the revolution, the revolutionary committees fit the pattern of imposing a new element on the existing subnational system of government rather than eliminating or consolidating already existing structures. By the late 1970s, the result was an unnecessarily complex system of overlapping jurisdictions in which cooperation and coordination among different elements were compromised by ill-defined grants of authority and responsibility.
The changes in Libyan leadership since 1976 culminated in March 1979, when the GPC declared that the "vesting of power in the masses" and the "separation of the state from the revolution" were complete. Qadhafi relinquished his duties as general secretary of the GPC, being known thereafter as "the leader" or "Leader of the Revolution." He remained supreme commander of the armed forces. His replacement was Abdallah Ubaydi, who in effect had been prime minister since 1979. The RCC was formally dissolved and the government was again reorganized into people's committees. A new General People's Committee (cabinet) was selected, each of its "secretaries" becoming head of a specialized people's committee; the exceptions were the "secretariats" of petroleum, foreign affairs, and heavy industry, where there were no people's committees. A proposal was also made to establish a "people's army" by substituting a national militia, being formed in the late 1970s, for the national army. Although the idea surfaced again in early 1982, it did not appear to be close to implementation.
Remaking of the economy was parallel with the attempt to remold political and social institutions. Until the late 1970s, Libya's economy was mixed, with a large role for private enterprise except in the fields of oil production and distribution, banking, and insurance. But according to volume two of Qadhafi's Green Book, which appeared in 1978, private retail trade, rent, and wages were forms of "exploitation" that should be abolished. Instead, workers' self-management committees and profit participation partnerships were to function in public and private enterprises. A property law was passed that forbade ownership of more than one private dwelling, and Libyan workers took control of a large number of companies, turning them into state-run enterprises. Retail and wholesale trading operations were replaced by state-owned "people's supermarkets", where Libyans in theory could purchase whatever they needed at low prices. By 1981 the state had also restricted access to individual bank accounts to draw upon privately held funds for government projects.
http://countrystudies.us/libya/30.htm
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)runaway hero
(835 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)This isn't rocket science.
FlatBaroque
(3,160 posts)As a message to any leader who wants to introduce a currency not owned by a bankster family.
SammyWinstonJack
(44,130 posts)FlatBaroque
(3,160 posts)I believe she must face justice for her acts.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,235 posts)Anything anyone wants to say good about Mussolini? Pinochet? The Kims? Stalin?
arcane1
(38,613 posts)FlatBaroque
(3,160 posts)Bernardo de La Paz
(49,089 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)Something else that's never mentioned on television...
The author was a Chicago Boy helping implement the privatization scam for Pinochet, ITT and the globalist crowd:
President Clinton and the Chilean Model.
By José Piñera
Midnight at the House of Good and Evil
"It is 12:30 at night, and Bill Clinton asks me and Dottie: 'What do you know about the Chilean social-security system?' recounted Richard Lamm, the three-term former governor of Colorado. It was March 1995, and Lamm and his wife were staying that weekend in the Lincoln Bedroom of the White House.
I read about this surprising midnight conversation in an article by Jonathan Alter (Newsweek, May 13, 1996), as I was waiting at Dulles International Airport for a flight to Europe. The article also said that early the next morning, before he left to go jogging, President Bill Clinton arranged for a special report about the Chilean reform produced by his staff to be slipped under Lamm's door.
That news piqued my interest, so as soon as I came back to the United States, I went to visit Richard Lamm. I wanted to know the exact circumstances in which the president of the worlds superpower engages a fellow former governor in a Saturday night exchange about the system I had implemented 15 years earlier.
Lamn and I shared a coffee on the terrace of his house in Denver. He not only was the most genial host to this curious Chilean, but he also proved to be deeply motivated by the issues surrounding aging and the future of America. So we had an engaging conversation. At the conclusion, I ventured to ask him for a copy of the report that Clinton had given him. He agreed to give it to me on the condition that I do not make it public while Clinton was president. He also gave me a copy of the handwritten note on White House stationery, dated 3-21-95, which accompanied the report slipped under his door. It read:
[font color="red"]Dick,
Sorry I missed you this morning.
It was great to have you and Dottie here.
Here's the stuff on Chile I mentioned.
Best,
Bill.[/font color]
Three months before that Clinton-Lamm conversation about the Chilean system, I had a long lunch in Santiago with journalist Joe Klein of Newsweek magazine. A few weeks afterwards, he wrote a compelling article entitled,[font color="green"] "If Chile can do it...couldn´t North America privatize its social-security system?" [/font color]He concluded by stating that "the Chilean system is perhaps the first significant social-policy idea to emanate from the Southern Hemisphere." (Newsweek, December 12, 1994).
I have reasons to think that probably this piece got Clintons attention and, given his passion for policy issues, he became a quasi expert on Chiles Social Security reform. Clinton was familiar with Klein, as the journalist covered the 1992 presidential race and went on anonymously to write the bestseller Primary Colors, a thinly-veiled account of Clintons campaign.
The mother of all reforms
While studying for a Masters and a Ph.D. in economics at Harvard University, I became enamored with Americas unique experiment in liberty and limited government. In 1835 Alexis de Tocqueville wrote the first volume of Democracy in America hoping that many of the salutary aspects of American society might be exported to his native France. I dreamed with exporting them to my native Chile.
So, upon finishing my Ph.D. in 1974 and while fully enjoying my position as a Teaching Fellow at Harvard University and a professor at Boston University, I took on the most difficult decision in my life: to go back to help my country rebuild its destroyed economy and democracy along the lines of the principles and institutions created in America by the Founding Fathers. Soon after I became Secretary of Labor and Social Security, and in 1980 I was able to create a fully funded system of personal retirement accounts. Historian Niall Ferguson has stated that this reform was the most profound challenge to the welfare state in a generation. Thatcher and Reagan came later. The backlash against welfare started in Chile.
But while de Tocquevilles 1835 treatment contained largely effusive praise of American government, the second volume of Democracy in America, published five years later, strikes a more cautionary tone. He warned that the American Republic will endure, until politicians realize they can bribe the people with their own money. In fact at some point during the 20th century, the culture of self reliance and individual responsibility that had made America a great and free nation was diluted by the creation of [font color="green"] an Entitlement State,[/font color] reminiscent of the increasingly failed European welfare state. What America needed was a return to basics, to the founding tenets of limited government and personal responsibility.
[font color="green"]In a way, the principles America helped export so successfully to Chile through a group of free market economists needed to be reaffirmed through an emblematic reform. I felt that the Chilean solution to the impending Social Security crisis could be applied in the USA.[/font color]
CONTINUED...
http://www.josepinera.org/articles/articles_clinton_chilean_model.htm
These guys and gals just want to ride herd on humanity. What better way than controlling the money spigot?
PufPuf23
(8,859 posts)Gadaffi was a dictator.
Despite Gadaffi calling Libya a socialist democracy, Libya was for all intents and purposes a family-controlled dictatorship.
Regardless of those facts, what the western nations did to the country and common people was cold-heartedly malicious and the true goals and beneficiaries had nothing to do with the best interests of the Libyan people.
Look at the hell hole Libya has become and for the undetermined future.
That did not have to occur and was done willfully and with no responsibility taken in the aftermath save for "business opportunity".
cali
(114,904 posts)Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)It really is that simple and that shameful.
ieoeja
(9,748 posts)Stalin was one of the architects of victory in WW-II.
Pinochet honored the terms of the 1988 referendum and stepped down peacefully when he probably still possessed the power to not do so.
Al Capone setup soup kitchens during the Great Depression.
Genghis Khan was a prolific builder of libraries and schools.
None of these good deeds mean they were not monsters. But even bad people love puppies**.
Except the Khan. I think he gets a totally bad rap. When the Chinese killed Mongol traders, he was justified in punishing China. When they killed the ambassadors he left behind, he was justified in conquering China. If you kill ambassadors, how can you ever achieve peace? I consider that the greatest warcrime of all.
The Mongols, Napolean's defeat at Moscow before the first snows fell, the Germans defeat at Moscow before the first snows fell, every history ever written about the US Civil War by Confederate generals and politicians are examples where the history was written by the losers who got it mostly wrong.
History probably should be written by the winner. Napolean and the Chinese wanted to make themselves look better. The Nazis and Confederates did not know what they were talking about which may have played a factor in their losses.
[font size=1]**Except, of course, people who torture puppies. But I'm sure even those people have something good about them.[/font]
uhnope
(6,419 posts)that considers anything anti-American as good. Putin, Gaddafi, Chavez. And that if you question that, you're a neocon.
Enough of them here for 90+ recs. A DU embarrassment
polly7
(20,582 posts)If you think Clinton - well aware of PNAC, the 'seven countries in five years' plan didn't know exactly how Libya was long planned for 'regime change', you weren't paying attention.
Start here:
Exposed: The "Humanitarian" War In Libya
Check this out - 'The Humanitarian War' = http://www.laguerrehumanitaire.fr/english It's horrifying. (Videos now here - I watched them on the original site when all of it was happening and posted these here at DU) http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article29428.htm
Must watch videos, the western trained NTC 'Prime Minister' - 'word to ear!' was the source of the 'data (all unofficial and lies, of course) that led to the UN resolution.
A bunch of LIES submitted to the ICC ..... by the UN - who got their 'numbers and crimes' from the western trained NTC Prime Minister - 'word to ear'. Pages and pages redacted.
No Evidence? No Problem!!
How the CIA Used "Libyan Expatriates" To Engineer Consent For Regime Change
One of the main sources for the claim that Qaddafi was killing his own people is the Libyan League for Human Rights (LLHR), an organization linked to the International Federation of Human Rights (FIDH). On Feb. 21, 2011, LLHR General Secretary Dr. Sliman Bouchuiguir initiated a petition in collaboration with the organization U.N. Watch and the National Endowment for Democracy. This petition was signed by more than 70 NGOs.
Then a few days later, on Feb. 25, Dr. Bouchuiguir went to the U.N. Human Rights Council in order to expose the allegations concerning the crimes of Qaddafis government. In July 2011 we went to Geneva to interview Dr. Sliman Bouchuiguir.
"How to circumvent international law and justice 101." - originally published by http://laguerrehumanitaire.fr
A film by Julien Teil
Official Website:
http://laguerrehumanitaire.fr
Official web:
http://thehumanitarianwar.com
Official TV:
http://laguerrehumanitaire-film.rutube.ru/
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What you don't know about the Libyan crisis: (watch the timeline closely)
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The horror of Libya - to fulfill the PNAC objective of overthrowing yet another country. "7 countries in 5 years!" This was NO "Humanitarian Intervention", and certainly not for all those migrants Qaddafi had allowed in over decades, Qaddafi loyalists and others who were raped, tortured, mutilated, hung, burned to death .... all known of by the NATO 'humanitarian team'.
It was a bullshit, self-serving, western funded and backed coup against yet another sovereign nation not yet indebted to the IMF and controlling its own resources, not to mention not allowing U.S. bases 'Africom' into all of Africa.
Some of these links don't work anymore, but read and discover just what a sham this was and why. The video at the end is particularly interesting.
The Untold Story in Libya
Posted by polly7 in General Discussion
Tue Oct 18th 2011, 10:06 AM
In May 2010, Libya was voted on to the UN Human Rights Council by a huge majority. The UN Watch's campaign to remove Libya from the Human Rights Council began immediately.
In March, 2011, a report, containing positive quotes from UN diplomatic delegations in many countries, was due to be presented by the UN Human Rights Council, leading to a Resolution commending Libya's progress in a wide aspect of human rights (listed in the article). March 19, 2011, the attack on Libya began.
Libya was one of only five countries without a Rothschild model central bank, Quaddafi openly discussed, in 2009, the nationalization of US, UK, Germany, Spain, Norway, Canada and Italy's oil companies, switching to the gold dinar - a single African currency that would serve as an alternative to the U.S. dollar and allow African nations to share the wealth. Libya has an abundance of water - Gaddafis Great Man-Made River Project project offers limitless amounts of water for Libyans and would allow them to be totally self-sufficient. In the near-future, water will be the next resource equated with money and power, other countries may be dependent on its reserves. A self-sufficient, dictator-ruled nation with control over some of the worlds most precious resource waves a big red warning flag.
In 2010 Gaddafi made a motion to the UN General Assembly to investigate the circumstances of the invasion of Iraq. He was also wasting the west's ....... 'libya's' oil on free education, housing, tolerance of immigrants, raising the standard of living in Africa, lowering infant mortality while raising life expectancy.
Many of these things are completely similar to what we learned of Iraq.
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Global Civilians For Peace In Libya
Posted on November 9, 2011 by globalciviliansforpeace
When analysing the standard of living in Libya it is important to put the achievements into context. During the 1950s under the leadership of King Idris, Libya was among the poorest nations in the world with some of the lowest living standards. From the early 1980s until 2003 Libya were placed under crippling sanctions by the US and UN which had the result of strangling Libyas growing economy leading to an inevitable smothering of development projects and social welfare schemes. Despite this The Libyan Arab Jamahiriya had achieved the highest living standard in Africa. Libya has also invested heavily in African development initiatives. The funding of infrastructure projects as well as African political and financial institutions was aimed at developing Africa independently and combating the economic exploitation of African resources and labour by outside powers. On January 4th, 2011 just weeks before the conflict in Libya started UN members praised Libyas continued welfare provision and commitment to upholding human rights.
Public Health Care
Public Health Care in Libya prior to NATOs Humanitarian Intervention was the best in Africa. Health care is [was] available to all citizens free of charge by the public sector. The country boasts the highest literacy and educational enrolment rates in North Africa. The Government is [was] substantially increasing the development budget for health services . (WHO Libya Country Brief )
According to the World Health Organization (WHO): Life expectancy at birth was 72.3 years (2009), among the highest in the developing World.
Under 5 mortality rate per 1000 live births declined from 71 in 1991 to 14 in 2009
(http://www.who.int/countryfocus/cooperation_strategy/ccsbrief_lby_en.pdf)
Education
The adult literacy rate was of the order of 89%, (2009), (94% for males and 83% for females). 99.9% of youth are literate (UNESCO 2009 figures, See UNESCO, Libya Country Report)
Gross primary school enrolment ratio was 97% for boys and 97% for girls (2009) .
(see UNESCO tables at http://stats.uis.unesco.org/unesco/TableViewer/document.aspx?ReportId=121&IF_Language=eng&BR_Country=4340&BR_Region=40525
[Extract]
21 February 2011
During Muammar Gaddafis 42-year rule, Libya has made great strides socially and economically thanks to its vast oil income, but tribes and clans continue to be part of the demographic landscape.
Women in Libya are free to work and to dress as they like, subject to family constraints. Life expectancy is in the seventies. And per capita income while not as high as could be expected given Libyas oil wealth and relatively small population of 6.5m is estimated at $12,000 (£9,000), according to the World Bank.
Illiteracy has been almost wiped out, as has homelessness a chronic problem in the pre-Gaddafi era, where corrugated iron shacks dotted many urban centres around the country.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/mobile/world-middle-east-12528996
Proud nation
In August 1984, Muammar Al Qadhafi laid the foundation stone for the pipe production plant at Brega. The Great Man-Made River Project had begun.
Click here to see a map of the pipeline network
Libya had oil money to pay for the project, but it did not have the technical or engineering expertise for such a massive undertaking.
Foreign companies from South Korea, Turkey, Germany, Japan, the Philippines and the UK were invited to help.
Water is seen as key to the countrys future prosperity
It is hard to fault the Libyans on their commitment. They estimate that when the Great Man-Made River is completed, they will have spent almost $20bn. So far, that money has bought 5,000km of pipeline that can transport 6.5 million cubic metres of water a day from over 1,000 desert wells.
As a result, Libya is now a world leader in hydrological engineering, and it wants to export its expertise to other African and Middle-Eastern countries facing the same problems with their water.
Through its agriculture, Libya hopes to gain a foothold in Europes consumer market.
But the Great Man-Made River Project is much more than an extraordinary piece of engineering.
Adam Kuwairi argues that the success of the Great Man-Made River Project has increased Libyas standing in the world: Its another addition to our independence; it gives us the confidence to survive.
https://globalciviliansforpeace.wordpress.com/2011/11/09/the-standard-of-living-in-libya/
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Yes, simply put, Nato's member nations are trying to steer back Libya Central Bank into the mainstream financial structure, under the watching eyes of the World Bank and the International Monetary Funds, to provide (reconstruction) funds to Libya with hefty interests payments - and transform a country which was free of debts into a heavily indebted country - as done everywhere else in sub-Saharan African countries.
http://businessafrica.net/africabiz/graphs...
http://businessafrica.net/africabiz/arcvol...
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From a 'no fly zone to all out bombing of targets called out by rebels'. NATO's high-precision bombing preceeded 'rebel' incursions.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MH27Ak03.html
"It's now common knowledge that British SAS, French intelligence, US Central Intelligence Agency assets, Qatar special forces and mercenaries of all stripes were parachuted as boots on the ground for months, planning and training the "rebels" and in close coordination with that philanthropic prodigy, NATO.
That was never the UN mandate - but who cares? NATO/GCC paid the bills, NATO conducted the bombing and NATO/GCC will "stabilize" the mess, according to a 70-page plan leaked by the British to Rupert Murdoch'sz Times of London."
"Expect local - and global - fireworks as far as grabbing the loot is concerned. Without even considering the (still unexplored) oil and gas wealth, Libya's foreign assets are worth at least $150 billion. Libya's central bank, now about to be privatized, has no less than 143.8 tons of gold. Then there's at least a millennium supply of fresh water, which had started to be harnessed by Gaddafi via the spectacular, multibillion dollar Great Man-Made River (GMR) project."
Middle East
Aug 27, 2011
THE ROVING EYE
R2P is now Right 2 Plunder
By Pepe Escobar
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"Oil-rich but with a relatively small population of 6.6. million, Gadhafi's Libya welcomed hundreds of thousands of black Africans looking for work in recent decades. "
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/01/l...
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NATOs War on Libya is an Attack on African DevelopmentDan Glazebrook
6 09 2011
http://globalciviliansforpeace.com/tag/afr... /
To prevent this threat of African development, the Europeans and the USA have responded in the only way they know how militarily. Four years ago, the US set up a new command and control centre for the military subjugation of the Africa, called AFRICOM. The problem for the US was that no African country wanted to host them; indeed, until very recently, Africa was unique in being the only continent in the world without a US military base. And this fact is in no small part, thanks to the efforts of the Libyan government.
Before Gaddafis revolution deposed the British-backed King Idris in 1969, Libya had hosted one of the worlds biggest US airbases, the Wheelus Air Base; but within a year of the revolution, it had been closed down and all foreign military personnel expelled.
More recently, Gaddafi had been actively working to scupper AFRICOM. African governments that were offered money by the US to host a base were typically offered double by Gaddafi to refuse it, and in 2008 this ad-hoc opposition crystallised into a formal rejection of AFRICOM by the African Union.
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The force used by the occupier to displace the old regime always makes sure the new regime is supine and complaint. The National Transitional Council, made up of former Gadhafi loyalists, Islamists and tribal leaders, many of whom detest each other, will be the Wests vehicle for the reconfiguration of Libya. Libya will return to being the colony it was before Gadhafi and the other young officers in 1969 ousted King Idris, who among other concessions had let Standard Oil write Libyas petroleum laws. Gadhafis defiance of Western commercial interests, which saw the nationalization of foreign banks and foreign companies, along with the oil industry, as well as the closure of U.S. and British air bases, will be reversed. The despotic and collapsed or collapsing regimes in Tunisia, Libya, Egypt and Syria once found their revolutionary legitimacy in the pan-Arabism of Egypts Gamal Abdel Nasser. But these regimes fell victim to their own corruption, decay and brutality. None were worth defending. Their disintegration, however, heralds a return of the corporate and imperial power that spawned figures like Nasser and will spawn his radical 21st century counterparts.
Libya: Here We Go Again
Monday 5 September 2011
by: Chris Hedges, Truthdig | Op-Ed
http://www.truthout.com/libya-here-we-go-a...
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LIBYA: Rebels execute black immigrants while forces kidnap others
http://somalilandpress.com/libya-rebels-ex...
"Many Africans have virtually nothing after years in Libya, many have been looted, robbed, while others saw their living quarters and apartments go in flames. Now they are praying to God to send them home.
While the international leaders are busy drafting resolutions to dismantle Muammar Gaddafi, the African Union has not yet commented on the situation in Libya.
Meanwhile, the International Criminal Court is said to have started a formal inquiry into possible crimes against humanity in Libya that will investigate the Libyan regime."
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JohnPilger.com
8 September 2011
http://johnpilger.com/articles/hail-to-the...
..."I quote that not so much for its Orwellian quality but as a model of journalism's role in justifying "our" bloodbaths in advance.
This is Rupert's Revolution, after all. Gone from the Murdoch press are pejorative "insurgents". The action in Libya, says The Times, is "a revolution... as revolutions used to be". That it is a coup by a gang of Muammar Gaddafi's ex cronies and spooks in collusion with Nato is hardly news.
The self-appointed "rebel leader", Mustafa Abdul Jalil, was Gaddafi's feared justice minister. The CIA runs or bankrolls most of the rest, including America's old friends, the Mujadeen Islamists who spawned al-Qaeda.
They told journalists what they needed to know: that Gaddafi was about to commit "genocide", of which there was no evidence, unlike the abundant evidence of "rebel" massacres of black African workers falsely accused of being mercenaries. European bankers' secret transfer of the Central Bank of Libya from Tripoli to "rebel" Benghazi by European bankers in order to control the country's oil billions was an epic heist of little .
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Sirte a 'living hell,' says aid group
http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/news/co...
Tuesday 04 October 2011 by Our Foreign Desk Printable Email
A Red Cross team finally entered the besieged Libyan town of Sirte yesterday and delivered urgently needed surgical supplies to treat about 200 wounded people.
Nato has repeatedly targeted Sirte in its seven-month bombing campaign that enabled armed rebels to topple the government of Muammar Gadaffi and gain control of most of the oil-rich state.
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Absolutely horrible to use rape as a propaganda weapon for war, while ignoring the reality of it for all those brutalized, raped and some, murdered by the NATO supported 'rebels' - just one example of their many atrocities.
********* http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2174087 **********
http://andrewgavinmarshall.com/2011/08/26/lies-war-and-empire-natos-humanitarian-imperialism-in-libya
In early March of 2011, news headlines in Western nations reported that Gaddafi would kill half a million people.
<1> On March 18, as the UN agreed to launch air strikes on Libya, it was reported that Gaddafi had begun an assault against the rebel-held town of Benghazi. The Daily Mail reported that Gaddafi had threatened to send in his African mercenaries to crush the rebellion.<2> Reports of Libyan government tanks sitting outside Benghazi poised for an invasion were propagated in the Western media.<3> In the lead-up to the United Nations imposing a no-fly zone, reports spread rapidly through the media of Libyan government jets bombing the rebels.<4> Even in February, the New York Times the sacred temple for the stenographers of power we call journalists reported that Gaddafi was amassing thousands of mercenaries to defend Tripoli and crush the rebels.<5>
Italys Foreign Minister declared that over 1,000 people were killed in the fighting in February, citing the number as credible.<6> Even a top official with Human Rights Watch declared the rebels to be peaceful protesters who are nice, sincere people who want a better future for Libya.<7> The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights declared that thousands of people were likely killed by Gaddafi, and called for international intervention to protect civilians.<8> In April, reports spread near and far at lightning speed of Gaddafis forces using rape as a weapon of war, with the first sentence in a Daily Mail article declaring, Children as young as eight are being raped in front of their families by Gaddafis forces in Libya, with Gaddafi handing out Viagra to his troops in a planned and organized effort to promote rape.<9>
As it turned out, these claims as posterity notes turned out to be largely false and contrived. Doctors Without Borders and Amnesty International both investigated the claims of rape, and have found no first-hand evidence in Libya that rapes are systematic and being used as part of war strategy, and their investigations in Eastern Libya have not turned up significant hard evidence supporting allegations of rapes by Qaddafis forces. Yet, just as these reports came out, Hillary Clinton declared that the U.S. is deeply concerned by reports of wide-scale rape in Libya.<10> Even U.S. military and intelligence officials had to admit that, there is no evidence that Libyan military forces are being given Viagra and engaging in systematic rape against women in rebel areas; at the same time Susan Rice, U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations, told a closed-door meeting of officials at the UN that the Libyan military is using rape as a weapon in the war with the rebels and some had been issued the anti-impotency drug. She reportedly offered no evidence to backup the claim.<
Untrue, says US
US says Gadhafi troops issued Viagra, raping victims
Allegation suggests troops encouraged to turn to sexual violence, envoys say
By Louis Charbonneau
updated 4/28/2011 9:31:26 PM ET
UNITED NATIONS The U.S. envoy to the United Nations told the Security Council Thursday that troops loyal to Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi were increasingly engaging in sexual violence and some had been issued the impotency drug Viagra, diplomats said.
Several U.N. diplomats who attended a closed-door Security Council meeting on Libya told Reuters that U.S. Ambassador Susan Rice raised the Viagra issue in the context of increasing reports of sexual violence by Gadhafi's troops.
"Rice raised that in the meeting but no one responded," a diplomat said on condition of anonymity. The allegation was first reported by a British newspaper.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42809612/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa#.TqXeG96ImU8
US intel: No evidence of Viagra as weapon in Libya
http://www.msnbc .msn.com/id/42824884/ns/world_news-mide...
UN Ambassador Rice reportedly had said drug was being used in systematic rapes
NBC News and news services updated 4/29/2011 1:52:00 PM ET
UNITED NATIONS There is no evidence that Libyan military forces are being given Viagra and engaging in systematic rape against women in rebel areas, US military and intelligence officials told NBC News on Friday.
Diplomats said Thursday that US Ambassador Susan Rice told a closed-door meeting of officials at the UN that the Libyan military is using rape as a weapon in the war with the rebels and some had been issued the anti- impotency drug. She reportedly offered no evidence to backup the claim.
While rape has been a weapon of choice in many other African conflicts, the US officials say they've seen no such reports out of Libya.
[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]
The gap between Hillary Rodham Clinton's rhetoric warning of a Rwanda-like slaughter of civilians in Libya and the facts gathered by career intelligence staff is taking on significance as the former secretary of state prepares another bid for the White House and her national security credentials are re-examined. (Associated Press)
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http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...
bvar22:
The Untold Story in Libya:
How The West Cooked Up The People's Uprising
http://whowhatwhy.com/2011/08/31/now-that-... ... /
The Global Disaster Capitalists never let a good disaster go to waste.
In the case of Libya, they used their Enforcement Arm (NATO & The US Military) to CREATE a disaster where there was none.
For all his dictatorial megalomania, Gaddafi is a committed pan-African - a fierce defender of African unity. Libya was not in debt to international bankers. It did not borrow cash from the International Monetary Fund for any "structural adjustment". It used oil money for social services - including the Great Man Made River project, and investment/aid to sub-Saharan countries. Its independent central bank was not manipulated by the Western financial system. All in all a very bad example for the developing world.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/M...
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Libya: Oil, Banks, Water, the United Nations, and Americas Holy Crusade by Felicity Arbuthnot
Posted on April 5, 2011 by dandelionsalad
.."The country was commended: for the progress made in the achievement of the Millennium Development Goals, namely universal primary education (and) firm commitment (to) health care. There was praise for cooperation with international organizations in combating human trafficking and corruption .. and for cooperation with the International Organization for Migration.
Progress in enjoyment of economic and social rights, including in the areas of education, health care, poverty reduction and social welfare with measures taken to promote transparency, were also cited. Malaysia: Commended the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya for being party to a significant number of international and regional human rights instruments. Promotion: of the rights of persons with disabilities and praise for measures taken with regard to low income families, were cited...
.."So how does the all tie together? Libya, in March being praised by the Majority of the UN., for human rights progress across the board, to being the latest, bombarded international pariah? A nations destruction enshrined in a UN., Resolution?
The answer lies in part with the Geneva based UN Watch.(vii) UN Watch is : a non-governmental organization whose mandate is to monitor the performance of the United Nations. With Consultative Status to the UN Economic and Social Council, with ties to the UN Department of Public Information, UN Watch is affiliated with the American Jewish Committee. (AJC.)"
http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2011/0... /
Interesting ..... the involvement in HR Watch of persons whose core values include securing energy resources.
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leveymg (34,352 posts)
9. Evidence State Dept was involved in organizing the rebellion from early April '11
This latest tranche of withheld and redacted "personal" emails from Sidney Blumenthal to Secretary Clinton shows he was part of efforts to overthrow the Ghadaffi regime from nearly the beginning, working as a liaison between the USG, western corporations, and Blackwater-type mercenaries to train and coordinate the uprising. The NYT summarizes some of his April 2011 email to Clinton this way:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/19/us/politics/what-sidney-blumenthals-memos-to-hillary-clinton-said-and-how-they-were-handled.html
Clinton Says Idea on Rebels Should Be Considered
In April 2011, Mr. Blumenthal sent Mrs. Clinton a memo about the rebel forces fighting the regime of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi. The rebels, Mr. Blumenthal wrote, were considering hiring security contractors to train their forces. Mrs. Clinton forwarded the memo to her aide, Jake Sullivan, and said that the idea should be considered. (Pages 1-3)
In 2011 and 2012, Mrs. Clinton forwarded 18 memos to Mr. Sullivan, who in turn circulated them to senior State Department officials, including Ambassador J. Christopher Stevens, who was killed in the 2012 attacks in Benghazi, and Ambassador Gene A. Cretz, who preceded him.
Doesn't sound comical or non-lethal to me. But, what it shows is that by early April, the State Dept. had already taken the lead, at least publicly, in aiding the Libyan opposition. The President didn't authorize "non-lethal" aid until April 26th, and that, we were told at the time, did not include training the rebels: http://foreignpolicy.com/2011/05/11/libyan-rebels-get-first-tranche-of-u-s-aid-10000-mres/
"This shipment, authorized under the Presidents April 26th drawdown, consisted of more than 10,000 halal meals ready to eat, so-called MREs, that were transferred from Department of Defense stocks in support of the s efforts to protect civilians and civilian-populated areas under the threat of attack," State Department spokesman Mark Toner told reporters at Tuesdays briefing.
The meals are part of the $25 million in non-lethal aid to the Libyan rebels the White House approved on April 26. That approval came 11 days after the State Department notified Congress that it wanted to spend the funds to help the Libyan rebel army fight off the forces of Col. Muammar al-Qaddafi.
"One of the reasons why I announced $25 million in non-lethal aid yesterday, why many of our partners both in NATO and in the broader Contact Group are providing assistance to the opposition, is to enable them to defend themselves and to repulse the attacks by Qaddafi forces," Clinton said April 21.
But while the State Departments notification said the money would go to things like "vehicles, fuel trucks and fuel bladders, ambulances, medical equipment, protective vests, binoculars, and non-secure radios" all items identified by the Libyan oppositions Transitional National Council (TNC) as urgently needed now the list is much more weighted to humanitarian goods.
Toner said Tuesday that the shipments were meant to be in "support of the TNCs efforts to protect civilians and civilian-populated areas under the threat of attack." More items are en route to Benghazi, including medical supplies, uniforms, boots, tents, and personal protective gear, he said.
"We continue to work with the TNC to determine what additional assistance requirements we might be able to support in the coming weeks," said Toner.
In fact, by the time the State Department acknowledged the delivery of "non-lethal" US aid to Libya, special emissary Chris Stevens had already settled in in Benghazi, where he immediately commenced coordination of US assistance to rebel groups. Plans were clearly afoot by April 1 to send Stevens to Eastern Libya, and the danger posed by by US aid to Jihadist extremist groups being doled out by arriving State Dept. personnel. The Department briefing ended on this ominous note: http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/2011/04/159596.htm
MR. TONER: Im not sure I know how to answer that question. I mean, look, these are professional diplomats who are conducting these kinds of outreaches, and so these are theyre used to assessing political environments and political opposition groups, and their judgment is sound. Is that it?
QUESTION: Is the State Department envoys already on ground in the eastern part of (inaudible)?
MR. TONER: Im sorry, the State Department?
QUESTION: (Inaudible).
MR. TONER: Not yet.
QUESTION: Not yet.
Three weeks later, at a April 21 press briefing, State Dept. spokesman Mark Toner alluded to the release of the $25 tranche of US aid to opposition groups in that eastern Libyan city: http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/2011/04/161440.htm#LIBYA
A few questions later, Toner responded to a second question about Stevens and the State Department team that had arrived in Benghazi:
MR. TONER: Thats a good question. Im not sure how big the DART team is there. Is that what youre talking about in addition to Chris Stevens?
QUESTION: Yeah.
MR. TONER: Ill have to confirm that figure. Sorry, Ill get back to you, Josh.
Note that, as the NYT reported, Blumenthal's emails to Clinton were routed to Stevens, among other Department officials assigned to Libya. This would indicate that both Clinton and Stevens were aware of private contractor plans to train opposition militias.
In addition, Blumenthal's emails to Hillary confirm what he had learned about the activities of the military and intelligence services of Egypt, Qatar, Britain and France in providing direct military assistance to the rebels, and MI6's ongoing mechanizations to replace the regime with figures backed by London.
In an April 8 email to Clinton, titled in part, "Egypt moves in", Blumenthal describes the intervention of Egyptian special forces in the civil war, and the their training and equipping of the opposition. He also explicitly warned about the danger in Libya of the rise of the very same al-Qaeda groups that would later coalesce into ISIS: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/05/19/us/politics/libya-related-messages-hillary-clinton-email-account.html?action=click&contentCollection=Politics&module=RelatedCoverage®ion=Marginalia&pgtype=article
Here, Sid references a meeting he had earlier that day with a member of the opposition:
According the UK Telegraph, Blumenthal had an active line of information into "UK game playing" in the uprising and plans to "break up" Libya, news that he passed on to Secretary Clinton. Not surprisingly, this email was also withheld: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/hillary-clinton/11616018/Britain-hid-secret-MI6-plan-to-break-up-Libya-from-US-Hillary-Clinton-told-by-confidante.html
Sidney Blumenthal, a long-time friend of the Clintons, emailed Mrs Clinton on her personal account to warn her that Britain was "game playing" in Libya.
Mr Blumenthal had no formal role in the US State Department and his memos to Mrs Clinton were sourced to his own personal contacts in the Middle East and Europe.
Nevertheless, Mrs Clinton seems to have taken some of his reports seriously and forwarded them on to senior diplomats working at the highest levels of American foreign policy.
The first of Mr Blumenthal's Libya memos - which were leaked to the New York Times - was sent on April 8, 2011, as rebel forces struggled to make gains against Gaddafi's troops, and had "UK game playing" in the subject line.
On April 21, the first known report of intervention on the side of the rebels by foreign "mercenary" forces from Egypt was published: http://www.eurasiareview.com/21022011-civil-war-in-libya-gaddafi-uses-pak-and-bd-mercenaries/ Three weeks later, the Washington Post reported that Qatar was training and equipping the rebellion's militias in Eastern Libya, as well as conducting airstrikes. http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle-east/qatari-military-advisers-on-the-ground-helping-libyan-rebels-get-into-shape/2011/05/11/AFZsPV1G_story.html
Why wouldn't Hillary want to withhold this and related email? Think about it.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=1128037
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Two Nato missiles forced the group to leave the cars and escape on foot, seeking shelter in a drainage ditch. A bodyguard hurled grenades at approaching militiamen but one grenade "hit the concrete wall and bounced back to fall between Muammar Gaddafi and Abu Bakr Younis", Younis junior said.
"The shrapnel hit my father and he fell down to the ground. Muammar Gaddafi was also injured by the grenade, on the left side of his head," he said.
New York-based Human Rights Watch said Gaddafi was already bleeding from head wounds caused by blast shrapnel as he tried to flee Sirte, his hometown.
The charity obtained unedited mobile footage that showed militia fighters abusing Gaddafi as they took him into custody in October 2011.
"As he was being led on to the main road, a militiaman stabbed him in his anus with what appears to have been a bayonet, causing another rapidly bleeding wound," the report said.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/gaddafi-killed-bayonet-stab-anus-libya-395224
The Grand finale - sodomized with a bayonet, beaten, tortured and murdered in the street - "We came, we saw ....... he died, lol".
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Horace Campbell and Maximilian Forte have written two solid accounts describing the reality versus myths of regime change in Libya. Clintons characterization of accelerating the fall of Qaddafi is a cynical understatement, like her self congratulatory comment that we came, we saw, he died after rebels killed Qaddafi on the street. Many of the refugees drowning in the Mediterannean Sea or reaching the shores of Italy today are a direct consequence of that operation. Yet who has been held to account?
Full article: http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/09/the-wicked-war-on-syria/
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Britain, Libya and the Mediterranean - The Creation of a Humanitarian Emergency
by Dan Glazebrook / May 1st, 2015
NATOs war of aggression against Libya in 2011 turned the country over to racist death squads, with hundreds of sub-Saharan migrant workers and black Libyans beaten and burnt to death by the revolutionaries and tens of thousands illegally detained and tortured by the militias. Tawergha, the only black African town on the Mediterranean, and formerly home to around 30,000 people, is now a ghost town after NATOs shock troops militias with names like the Brigades for the purging of black skins ethnically cleansed the region. Last weeks butchering of 30 Ethiopian workers by ISIS is but the latest chapter in the anti-African pogroms that have characterised the Libyan insurgency from the very start. This is the reality of NATOs Libyan revolution (led by AbdulHakim BelHaj, now leader of ISIS in Libya) and it is precisely this from which black Africans in Libya are now fleeing. As Italian Prime Minister Matteo Renzi put it, a person has to risk his life because he needs to escape from a situation where they are chopping off the heads of those near him.
And this head-chopping has not been restricted to Libyas borders. NATOs war has boosted head-choppers across the entire region, from Tunisia and Algeria to Mali, Nigeria and Cameroon. Before 2011, Boko Haram barely existed. Today, thanks to NATO opening up Libyas arsenals to them and their friends, they are killing hundreds every week, often burning them alive in churches and mosques. As one Nigerian told a reporter last week, We prefer to die trying (to migrate) than stay back there and die .Stay at home and get shot dead or maybe burnt to death; I just prefer to die while trying or survive.
Yet the Libyan war itself is only the latest in a long series of acts of aggression launched by the British state and its allies, all of which continue to have disastrous consequences across the entire Middle East and North Africa region. A look at the list of where the migrants come from makes this devastatingly clear. The majority of the worlds refugees come from one of three countries: Afghanistan, Somalia and Syria. What all have in common is that they have all been subject to vicious terror campaigns by Britain, the USA and their allies: whether directly, as in Afghanistan; through allied states, as with the US-backed Ethiopian invasion of Somalia in 2006 (which toppled the first stable government the country had had in decades); or through the provision of cash, weapons and diplomatic cover to sectarian death squads, as in the case of Syria. Yemen is the latest additional source of refugees, with the Saudi bombing campaign bringing new arrivals to almost 10,000 per week.
Full article: http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/05/britain-libya-and-the-mediterranean/
Behind Every Refugee Stands an Arms Trader
http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/04/behind-every-refugee-stands-an-arms-trader/
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Trapped in Libya: the flotsam of the Wests wars
By Vijay Prashad
Source: al-Araby
May 14, 2015
European ambassadors have drafted a UN resolution, under chapter VII (which allows use of force), to tackle the crisis. For them the military option is the brightest light. As Mogherini said, the EU wants the authority to use all necessary means to seize and dispose of the [smugglers] vessels.
Thus far in 2015, over 60,000 people have tried to cross from Libya to Europe. Of them, close to two thousand have died a death toll 20 times higher than in 2014, it continues.
The threat to the refugees is a direct outcome of UN Security Council Resolution 1973, ironically under the Responsibility to Protect (R2P) banner. A new UNSC resolution is not going to be about the protection of the refugees, but to use force to destroy their lifeline. R2P has been ground under by the Wests behavior in Libya.
Full article: https://zcomm.org/znetarticle/trapped-in-libya-the-flotsam-of-the-wests-wars/
On Monday, a New York Times story demonstrated more specifically why Clinton's interactions with Blumenthal may have been a bad idea. Blumenthal, the Times reports via solid sources, was advising the Secretary of State both before and after former Libyan autocrat Muammar Qaddafi's death while also advising a group of private individuals who hoped to make money by obtaining reconstruction-type contracts in a post-Qaddafi Libya.
Much of the Libya intelligence that Mr. Blumenthal passed on to Mrs. Clinton appears to have come from a group of business associates he was advising as they sought to win contracts from the Libyan transitional government. The venture, which was ultimately unsuccessful, involved other Clinton friends, a private military contractor and one former C.I.A. spy seeking to get in on the ground floor of the new Libyan economy ...
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/05/18/hillary_clinton_sidney_blumenthal_libya_unofficial_adviser_represented_business.html
The detritus of regime change in Libya
By Vijay Prashad
Source: al-Araby
November 1, 2015
Much the same story is being repeated with the emergence of IS in Libya. Adversaries of Gaddafi in the 1990s took refuge in the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group; one of whose strongholds was the town of Derna.
These fighters fled the country to join the Jihad International in Afghanistan, Chechnya, Iraq, Yemen and Syria.
It had become a familiar matter to meet an al-Libi in the redoubts of the jihadis. Studies show that Libya provided per capita the highest number of jihadis to this global campaign.
Full article: https://zcomm.org/znetarticle/the-detritus-of-regime-change-in-libya/
Deadliest Terror in the World: The Wests Latest Gift to Africa
by Dan Glazebrook / November 30th, 2015
The earliest casualty of NATOs war outside Libya was Mali. Taureg fighters who had worked in Gaddafis security forces fled Libya soon after Gaddafis government was overthrown, and mounted an insurgency in Northern Mali. They, in turn, were overthrown, however, by Al Qaedas regional affiliates flush with Libyan weaponry who then turned Northern Mali into another base from which to train and launch attacks. Boko Haram was a key beneficiary. As Brendan O Neill wrote in an excellent 2014 article worth quoting at length:
Boko Haram benefited enormously from the vacuum created in once-peaceful northern Mali following the Wests ousting of Gaddafi. In two ways: first, it honed its guerrilla skills by fighting alongside more practised Islamists in Mali, such as AQIM; and second, it accumulated some of the estimated 15,000 pieces of Libyan military hardware and weaponry that leaked across the countrys borders following the sweeping aside of Gaddafi. In April 2012, Agence France France Presse reported that dozens of Boko Haram fighters were assisting AQIM and others in northern Mali. This had a devastating knock-on effect in Nigeria. As the Washington Post reported in early 2013, The Islamist insurgency in northern Nigeria has entered a more violent phase as militants return to the fight with sophisticated weaponry and tactics learned on the battlefields of nearby Mali. A Nigerian analyst said Boko Harams level of audacity was high [in late 2012], immediately following the movement of some of its militants to the Mali region.
Full article: http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/11/deadliest-terror-in-the-world-the-wests-latest-gift-to-africa/
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/05/the-problem-with-hillarys-friends/393635/
The memos covered everything from warnings about possible terrorist attacks and the rise of the Muslim Brotherhood within Libya to the potential training of Libyan rebels and the hiring of new economic advisers by the Libyan premier. As the National Journal reports, the House Benghazi Committee is already seeking Blumenthals testimony.
WE CAME, WE SAW, HE DIED 10.20.15 6:00 PM ET
Hillarys Libya Post-War Plan Was Play It by Ear, Gates Says
She still defends the invasion as smart power at its best. But war backers like Clinton had no plan for securing the country, says ex-Pentagon chief Bob Gates.
As secretary of state, it was Clintons job to ask questions about the state of Libya, both before the intervention and after. She was secretary when the intervention beganand when the U.S. presence in Benghazi ended with a deadly attack. And while she held talks in the early months after Gaddafis death, Libya became largely a public afterthought. In the email caches released so far from her personal account, former adviser Sidney Blumenthal repeatedly kept Libya before Clinton, sharing his views of the situation, at the time contradicting the diplomats working for Clinton. Blumenthal, a longtime adviser to both Clinton and President Clinton, was not an expert on the region.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/20/hillary-s-libya-post-war-plan-was-play-it-by-ear-gates-says.html
Hillary's record as Secretary of State is among the most militaristic, and disastrous, of modern US history. Some experience. Hilary was a staunch defender of the military-industrial-intelligence complex at every turn, helping to spread the Iraq mayhem over a swath of violence that now stretches from Mali to Afghanistan. Two disasters loom largest: Libya and Syria.
Hillary has been much attacked for the deaths of US diplomats in Benghazi, but her tireless promotion of the overthrow Muammar Qaddafi by NATO bombing is the far graver disaster. Hillary strongly promoted NATO-led regime change in Libya, not only in violation of international law but counter to the most basic good judgment. After the NATO bombing, Libya descended into civil war while the paramilitaries and unsecured arms stashes in Libya quickly spread west across the African Sahel and east to Syria. The Libyan disaster has spawned war in Mali, fed weapons to Boko Haram in Nigeria, and fueled ISIS in Syria and Iraq. In the meantime, Hillary found it hilarious to declare of Qaddafi: "We came, we saw, he died."
Perhaps the crowning disaster of this long list of disasters has been Hillary's relentless promotion of CIA-led regime change in Syria. Once again Hillary bought into the CIA propaganda that regime change to remove Bashir al-Assad would be quick, costless, and surely successful. In August 2011, Hillary led the US into disaster with her declaration Assad must "get out of the way," backed by secret CIA operations.
http://www.commondreams.org/views/2016/02/05/hillary-candidate-war-machine
Just as much a sham as Iraq, with the exact same results. And on ........ to Syria.
Cheese Sandwich (8,079 posts)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511413353#post13
PufPuf23
(8,859 posts)polly7
(20,582 posts)It's just articles and links (many quite old, the links may not work right - sorry) that some of us collected while it was all happening, and afterwords. There are so many more I'd like to add, but it's pretty long as it is.
PufPuf23
(8,859 posts)if there was any good at all in the actions, it was no more than a convenient excuse for over reach.
In the media build up and when Libya was going down, I found obvious that the military intervention was cruel and senseless and for some to extend their power, feed their vanity, and make a buck.
It is disgusting and repulsive that anyone can excuse the outcome.
polly7
(20,582 posts)There was thread after thread even here at the time celebrating each bombing and attack - ignoring the subsequent horror and suffering - daily actual celebration and glee. Those of us who knew exactly what was going on were tried to be banned for posting - and many were. 'Funny' little cartoons were included in these mile-long daily threads week after week. It was disgusting and repulsive, yet the majority here enjoyed them very much. Reminded me exactly of the board I was on trying to protest the invasion of Iraq. I was beyond sad to see it here.
nationalize the fed
(2,169 posts)This ONE article, written in 1999, sums it up perfectly.
If there is only ONE article that should be mandatory for everyone it's this
Backing up Globalization with Military Might
New World Order Onslaught
by Karen Talbot
Covert Action Quarterly, Issue 68, Fall 1999
McDonald's Needs McDonnell Douglas to Flourish
An article by Thomas Friedman in the New York Times entitled "What the World Needs Now" tells it all. Illustrated by an American Flag on a fist it said, among other things: "For globalism to work, America can't be afraid to act like the almighty superpower that it is....The hidden hand of the market will never work without a hidden fist-McDonald's cannot flourish without McDonnell Douglas, the designer of the F-15. And the hidden fist that keeps the world safe for Silicon Valley's technologies is called the United States Army, Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps...snip
http://www.globalissues.org/article/448/backing-up-globalization-with-military-might
Oh LOOKIE HERE
There's a Cinnabon in Tripoli! Quelle Suprise
If you read this article carefully, "Backing Up Globalization with Military Might" makes EVEN MORE SENSE
Cinnabon in Tripoli as Libya Opens Up to Foreign Business
Bloomberg Business
After 42 years, the country formerly known as the Great Socialist Peoples Libyan Arab Jamahiriya is getting its first taste of consumer capitalism in an unlikely form: sweet, sticky cinnamon rolls. Cinnabon, the Atlanta-based bakery chain, is at the vanguard of a potential business boom in the North African country, which deposed dictator Muammar Qaddafi last year in a bloody civil war. In July the unit of Focus Brands became the first U.S. franchise to open since the revolution, with a two-level Tripoli outlet. Its become a popular destination in a city with few diversions for residents...snip
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-12-13/cinnabon-in-tripoli-as-libya-opens-up-to-foreign-business
ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)zeemike
(18,998 posts)You did it Polly7
Could not read it in one siting so bookmarked it.
FlatBaroque
(3,160 posts)being able to pick up a comprehensive research piece like that is what is right with DU.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)But the resident morans would probably vote to hide it within mere seconds, too quickly for any of them to actually read it
SammyWinstonJack
(44,130 posts)FighttheFuture
(1,313 posts)thereismore
(13,326 posts)lakeguy
(1,640 posts)Martin Eden
(12,888 posts)bookmarked to read later
spanone
(135,958 posts)CNN PRODUCER NOTE The opinions expressed in this piece are solely those of the iReporter. CNN cannot confirm all of the claims in this iReport and has been unable to reach the original submitter. Share your thoughts on this story in the comments below or upload your view to iReport.
- zdan, CNN iReport producer
Octafish
(55,745 posts)-- http://www.reunionblackfamily.com/apps/blog/show/7869956-war-on-libya-is-war-on-entire-africa-
Wonder what Qaddafi did to piss off Washington? He shared.
PufPuf23
(8,859 posts)FlatBaroque
(3,160 posts)Whereas we like to ally with countries where King's wipe their asses with $100 bills.
SunSeeker
(51,824 posts)He murdered an American passenger jet full of innocents over Lockerbie Scotland, for starters.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/feb/23/gaddafi-lockerbie-bombing-minister-libya
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Revenge for the US Navy shoot-down of the Iranian jet.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/10688412/Lockerbie-bombing-CIA-believes-to-a-man-that-Iran-carried-out-attack-on-Pan-Am-Flight-103-says-former-agent.html
There also are allegations rogue agents of the US secret state did it to silence an investigation implicating drug running.
http://aangirfan.blogspot.com/2010/08/lockerbie-is-about-heroin.html?m=1
I wish we knew the complete story.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)The profit opportunity for capitalism was enormous.
uhnope
(6,419 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)<snip>
Clinton's correspondence reveals that Blumenthal regularly sent her intelligence-cable-style updates on Libya that cited anonymous sources who claimed to be close to the country's political elites.
These briefs were prepared by Blumenthal's business partner and former CIA operative Tyler Drumheller, a consultant with plans to take advantage of economic opportunities in a post-war Libya. Both Drumheller and Blumenthal worked with a Libyan company called Osprey, a start-up that hoped to profit off medical and military contracts in the chaos after the war.
Though those contracts may have eventually needed the approval of Clinton's State Department, Blumenthal has repeatedly denied he intended to use his connections to the Secretary of State to further his business interests. Since Libya fractured after the NATO-led intervention in 2011, the lucrative business opportunities didn't materialize, and Osprey never really got off the ground.
<snip>
https://news.vice.com/article/libyan-oil-gold-and-qaddafi-the-strange-email-sidney-blumenthal-sent-hillary-clinton-in-2011
uhnope
(6,419 posts)You actually think that the US supported the removal of Gaddafi just so that a company that makes field hospitals could get rich (which it did not btw). Wow.
Oh while you're at it why don't you go & answer my question from the last thread where you stuck yr neck out so erroneously
cali
(114,904 posts)That government is influenced by these interests is fact. Think Iraq and Halliburton. Think Schlumberger. Let me put it simply just for you: Money=Access. Access all too frequently equals influence. Hardly a a novel theory. Simply fact.
Do I think disaster capitalism was the proximate cause of the bombing of Libya? It's complicated, but it was obviously a piece of it. There is strong evidence that France was motivated, in part, by Libyan oil.
https://wikileaks.org/clinton-emails/emailid/12900#share
You simply are not well enough informed to engage in a thoughtful discussion of this issue.
And I've answered your inane questions.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)I forget you are here to enforce the status meme...what ever it might be.
cali
(114,904 posts)Maedhros
(10,007 posts)polly7
(20,582 posts)PufPuf23
(8,859 posts)Last edited Fri May 13, 2016, 03:10 PM - Edit history (1)
Counterpunch can be a good source for other than common wisdom.
There is also a fair proportion of absolute crap.
It is a forum for various views one does not need to accept, but there is good meat there with discretion.
Counterpunch's home is in Humboldt county, CA, my home.
Cockburn was a good if not always politically correct journalist, deliberately a muckraker.
We need more well placed muckrakers not less.
I first met Jeff St. Clair when he was an environmentalist who targeted the US Forest Service prior to being with Counterpunch
I was a USFS employee from 1969 to 1985 and did not always agree with St. Clair then nor now.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)iReport facts posted by mystery2323 not verified by CNN!
- zdan, CNN iReport producer
.
PufPuf23
(8,859 posts)One can find other sources to verify parts.
I am not so naïve to think the document absolute.
Regardless, look at the hellhole created in Libya and tell us why the intervention was good for the common people of Libya or even was a positive move for the "War on Terror".
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)The Libyans who took out Gadhafi thought it was good!
snort
(2,334 posts)Why has he suddenly been turned into a super bad guy? Who's interests were really being supported? Who masterminded the plan?
tarheelsunc
(2,117 posts)that people on this site are lauding the perceived "good" things about a dictator known for human rights violations against his own people and supporting terrorists, all out of hatred and contempt for the Democratic President and the candidate leading the Democratic primary. Good job, guys. Keep it up, really.
PufPuf23
(8,859 posts)put Gadaffi's history in the OP.
Gadaffi was not taken out until after he had renounced terrorism, was paying damage for terrorism, and tried to play nioce with the western powers regards radical Islamic terrorism.
There is no way that Gadaffi's crimes against the common Libyan people approaches the cold-hearted destruction and hell hole created by western military intervention in what had been one of Africa's most affluent and modernizing countries despite Gadaffi.
I don't have contempt for POTUS Obama. I think he did well considering the initial cards he was dealt. I gave him $1000 in 2008 and cried when he won the election. I wish POTUS Obama wasn't a neo-liberal.
I admit I am deeply repulsed by the video of Hillary Clinton gloating over the action in Libya.
I also question the agenda that set the intervention in action.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)It's all a simplistic good/evil false dichotomy, for people who don't know how to think objectively. And since your OP might have a slightly negative implication for Her Majesty, ridiculous, child-like tantrums are the result.
PufPuf23
(8,859 posts)I am surprised by the positive interest in this OP.
My core is an anti-war liberal.
joshcryer
(62,287 posts)That doesn't substantiate any of its claims.
joshcryer
(62,287 posts)As it stands now it's doing better than many Latin American states.
Most of the "facts" you post about Gaddafi's style of "socialism" are unsubstantiated BS I spent months debunking. It's made up crap with little academic backing. Just bigoted bloggers telling the world how Libya should be, while smearing them as a people.
PufPuf23
(8,859 posts)would have been far better off had Gadaffi remained in place and there was no western intervention.
The intervention was under false pretenses as was Iraq and Syria.
No way am I a supporter of Gadaffi. Plus I can never get straight the correct spelling of the dictator's name.
That said Libya had one of the highest and best distributed per capita incomes in Africa.
The intervention would not have occurred had Libya not had wealth to loot.
The idea that Libya would look like present Syria without intervention is a pants load.
The line items I quoted are a "perfected" slice of Libya and there is no doubt that the profile is correct, the line items are former Libyan initiatives that can be substantiated.
We handed over Libya to the radical Islamists whereby the older Gadaffi was making an attempt to better the country and cooperate with the west.
Latin America has been messed with for decades by the USA for business interests and to favor the white colonialists over the mixed, black, and native populations.
No where in Latin America now is the violent hell hole ran by radical Islamists or the like found in present day Libya.
Most common people in Libya just wanted to live secure lives in peace. I had Irish relatives that traveled there for years for employment.
You are not as smart nor clever as you present yourself at DU.
joshcryer
(62,287 posts)Back Gaddafi like we did the Bahrain or Yemen crackdowns, or back the rebels who were an unknown.
What happened was we went with the rebels. After Gaddafi's ouster, the Muslim Brotherhood lost, and moderate Libyans won. It seemed to be working out OK.
But after that there were still special interests that wanted something. Oil, land, territory. Gaddafi was right about the migrants / human trafficking but only because he was a racist bigot and acted as a wall to EU.
And of course in the meantime, ISIS grew in Iraq, and Syria became a dead zone. Which is what happens when you don't act. Civil war.
Latin America is more deadly than warzones, don't even kid yourself. ISIS executes a hundred Iraqi's. That's a hot weekend in Caracas.
murielm99
(30,790 posts)I never thought I would see such propaganda here. Baghdad Bob is alive and well.
EX500rider
(10,893 posts)greatauntoftriplets
(175,776 posts)Can't believe what I'm reading here.
oasis
(49,499 posts)What a great guy.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)"we came, we saw, he died", and what does that say about that candidate?
moondust
(20,030 posts)somebody was in a sensitive position they did not belong in, and very likely was not the best candidate for that position in the first place. Political theater/global name recognition/resume padding.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Militaristic group think is apparently a prerequisite for the post.
dubyadiprecession
(5,740 posts)Why didn't the people of libya take up arms with his military and crush the Uprising there? Benevolent leaders don't usually get bayoneted up the Butt for nothing.
puffy socks
(1,473 posts)He left Libya in a horrific state of poverty. This was all because he wanted wealth and he wanted power.
Gaddafi was ruled Libya with an iron fist, eliminating all political opposition and greatly restricting the lives of Libyans
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1bytzx_mad-dog-inside-the-secret-world-of-muammar-gaddafi-part-i_shortfilms
He killed his foreign secretary, then kept him in a deep-freeze in his palace so that he could regularly have a gloat over the body
Visited classrooms of 15- and 16-year-old girls, patting the ones he fancied on their heads, then having them dragged off by his security, gynecologically inspected and shown pornographic videos (to educate them in his expectations) before raping them and then having them put away in asylums.
"The macabre sex chamber of Libya's Colonel Gaddafi where he raped girls - and boys - as young as 14 Colonel Muhammar Gaddafi kept several 'sex dungeons' at his palaces Libyan tyrant forced hundreds of young girls to become his sex slaves Gaddafi also had a 'harem' of young men called 'the services group'"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2545819/Uncovered-The-macabre-sex-chamber-Libyas-Colonel-Gaddafi-raped-girls-boys-young-14.html
He deliberately shot down one of his own domestic airliners, partly for the sheer terror of it, partly as a ruse to show the West that its sanctions were hurting Libya so badly that it couldnt afford to maintain its own aircraft.
Former prison inmates of the Gaddafi regime have testified that Mr Koussa, who was previously head of external intelligence, interviewed them after they were tortured and in at least one case carried out an assault himself with an electric rod.
One also said that he was present at the notorious Abu Salim Prison massacre, when 1,200 inmates were killed after staging a protest in 1996. http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2011/09/20119223521462487.html
Peace Patriot
(24,010 posts)It was pretty obvious to me that there was an internal war between the CIA and the Neo-Cons during the Bush junta, circa 2003-2006, with one of the visible parts being Cheney-Rumsfeld's outing of the CIA's worldwide WMD counter-proliferation project and its head, Valerie Plame. Another visible part was Patrick Fitzgerald (DoJ special prosecutor) and his investigation of Cheney for the CIA outings (in which he netted "Scooter" Libby who fell on his sword). And a third, and very important, visible (but not well known) part was Bush Sr.'s convening of his "Iraq Study Group" (read Iran Study Group) in spring '06 and the subsequent resignation (force out?) of Rumsfeld from the Pentagon later in that year.
Following these events, all talk of nuking Iran (which was big in 2006) went away, Nancy Pelosi announced that "impeachment is off the table" (what table, Nancy?) and Barack Obama, when he entered the scene, said, "We need to look forward not backward" on the war crimes and grand theft of the Bush junta. (They teach that at Harvard Law School: The crimes of the rich & powerful don't happen in the past, like other crimes, but are a special category of crime that occurs in a parallel universe on a different time-line altogether.)
Summary of this theory: Bush Sr. intervened to save Bush Jr.'s presidency, and perhaps his sorry ass, from the CIA, which was mightily pissed off about the outings of its agents. Also, the Bush cartel has interests in China and didn't want Iran nuked, cuz China gets a lot of its oil from Iran. (Bush and CIA are more inclined to subvert than to nuke.)
Fast forward to today:
Please see this thread on former NSA Director/former CIA Director Michael Hayden's remarks, yesterday, at a Tech conference, regarding Hillary Clinton's actions as Sec of State:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511946508
I think there is an on-going internal war, or a second internal war, within our governing elite, between the Neo-Cons and the CIA. Michael Hayden would NEVER do what he did yesterday entirely on his own initiative. He would not go rogue, or even hint of rogue.
What Hayden said, basically, was that it is absurd to think that the Chinese and other foreign governments didn't hack Clinton's private server, and that her "original sin" was setting up the private, insecure server in the first place. That Hayden would say this--thus intervening, publicly, in the FBI investigation--means, in all probability, that the CIA is extremely concerned about Neo-Con influence on Clinton. They don't want a repeat of the Cheney-Rumsfeld attack on the CIA. They are likely also concerned simply about leaks of their own or other agencies' secret machinations for whatever purposes.
I'm no fan of the CIA. I'd like to see the CIA abolished (or restored to the original purpose intended by Harry Truman--gathering intelligence, not intervening in this or any other country). But I do think, in these recent internal struggles, they are more inclined to subvert than to wreak other kinds of havoc on foreign lands. (They likely opposed the war on Iraq, for instance, and got into a bloody fight with Cheney-Rumsfeld about it; opposed nuking Iran, and were part of Bush Sr.'s coalition to stop it; maybe opposed the NATO war on Libya that Clinton was an engineer of).
I suspect that the CIA is in a dilemma, as to our political scene. They don't want Clinton (rogue leaks, rogue policies uninformed by CIA wisdom). They don't want Trump either (too unpredictable). It would be ...well, interesting, to say the least... if who they really want is Sanders, who will keep the domestic scene calmed down, while they play their games abroad.
But I think it's more likely that Hayden's purpose is to extract rock-solid guarantees from Clinton, via threat of a DoJ indictment, that there will be no private servers in the White House, and that someone like Leon Panetta (member of Bush Sr.'s "Iraq Study Group," chief of staff to Bill, later CIA Director under (over?) Obama then Pentagon chief) will be present as a check on Hillary and her new Neo-Con pals (and maybe on Bill as well).
My guess would be that AG Lynch (a Clinton supporter) is trying to block an indictment or a threat of indictment (re: CIA purpose as a check on Clinton and on leaks). The CIA/NSA are pushing the FBI to recommend indictment or threaten to. The FBI is caught in the middle (and that may be the reason for their delayed report).
Last week, President Obama stated to a reporter in a special White House interview that "there has been NO political influence on the FBI investigation. Full stop." He repeated this many times, provoked only by sputtering half-questions from the reporter. "Full stop."
Of course there is political influence! What do we think 'the Beltway' is but a viper's nest of political influence (and almost none of it in our interest, We the People)? What's being considered by all agencies and entities touched in any way by the FBI investigation is whether or not Clinton should be president.
If yes, how to cover up what Michael Hayden said she did (exposed U.S. national security secrets to the Chinese and other foreign governments)? If no (she shouldn't be president), how to let the public know what she did and how serious it was (enter Michael Hayden), and/or take other measures to defeat her, which at this point could be done without risking Trump as president (because Sanders is still a viable candidate, is still winning primaries, refuses to drop out and has great numbers against Trump).
What's going to happen that would affect us and our primary and the GE? Damned if I know. And I don't even have a strong guess among the many possibilities. I'm just trying to bring some perspective and some history to this highly unusual situation.
I imagine the FBI is trying to maintain some integrity and neutrality in what threatens to be an explosive political scandal like the original Watergate. But, of course, the FBI likes to be perceived as having integrity and neutrality. It's their thing (or at least Comey's). Is it true? Will they do what's right and just, according to the law? And if that is to recommend indictment of Clinton, will AG Lynch act on it, or will she protect her political ally? Or will all of this just remain a colossal muddle, like most Clinton business?
We don't have any say in these matters. All we can do is rally, and organize and vote, and pull off a decisive victory for Bernie Sanders in California and the remaining primary states. That will settle the matter. No more Clinton "baggage" to worry about.
PufPuf23
(8,859 posts)LongTomH
(8,636 posts)Most of history gets written 'in the dark.' Our history books only scratch the surface!
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,235 posts)Gadaffi love or Putin love.
Throd
(7,208 posts)PufPuf23
(8,859 posts)What I don't like is that we destroyed Libya under the rubric of protecting the Libyan people from the dictator Gadaffi.
Now Libya for the foreseeable future is a hellhole dominated by radical Islamists and open to exploitation by trans-national corporations.
The intervention happened to loot a relatively stable and prosperous country's wealth.
Albertoo
(2,016 posts)Other than that, I am sure he was a perfectly honest and honorable man.
He wanted to obliterate the population of rebellious provinces, but that was nothing.
Juvenile whim.
PufPuf23
(8,859 posts)Last edited Fri May 13, 2016, 03:14 PM - Edit history (1)
Gadaffi certainly lived lavish and bought anything he and his wanted but $150 Billion of "his" supposed fortune was the foreign accounts of the nation of Libya held in western banks.
As part of the military intervention, the western powers seized and have never released the moneys that belong to Libya.
Gadaffi spent Libyan money generously for water projects, education, housing, medical, and other social issues domestically.
Gadaffi was also paying reparations for victims of the period when Libya was active as a terrorist nation.
The west armed and made promises to the rebels and watched them die and bombed Libya deliberately taking out critical infrastructure.
Libya was left unstable and in the hands of radical Islamists. Subsequently Libya was used as an ISIS staging area for weapons and fighters transferred to Syria.
Albertoo
(2,016 posts)Libya = small population, huge oil reserves of high quality. Anyone, from Rodney Dangerfield to Angus Oblong, would have been able to offer the population decent living conditions.
What you do not mention is that
1- qaddafi got fabulously wealthy, appropriating the riches of the masses
2- opponents were savagely repressed
3- in his prime, qaddafi found it funny to finance terrorism
all in all, i'd say not a very nice guy.
PufPuf23
(8,859 posts)Western intervention encouraged the radical Islamists that were Gadaffi's internal enemy and allegedly our enemy in the "War on Terror".
The we bombed the country in the name of protecting the common Libyan.
The radical Islamists meanwhile were practicing genocide on black Libyans and black Libyan guest workers that had been specifically protected by Gadaffi.
The country of Libya has been left hell on earth for the common Libyan and the likely true western motivation and final outcome is western trans-nationals stealing the wealth of the peoples of Libya.
Gadaffi had renounced terrorism in 2003 and cooperated with the USA in the War on (some) Terror including renditions of supposed radical Islamists. Libya was paying reparations to some of the victims of some past terror events such as Lockerbie (whose beneficiaries sare now out of luck).
When will the common Libyans have "decent living conditions" again?
Albertoo
(2,016 posts)The wrong lessons were learnt from Iraq
it was dumb to attack Iraq, notably because any stay would have been unwelcome
it might have been OK to attack Qaddafi, provided there some UN+NATO force stayed to back a civil government in the interest of the Libyans.
PufPuf23
(8,859 posts)the common Libyan by western covert actions followed by bombing and leaving Libya in the hands of radical Islamists.
Oh yeah and then weapons and fighters from Libya then went to Syria.
In the initial aftermath of Iraq, I was flabbergasted that so little planning went into the aftermath of the initial invasion to stabilize.
With time, I have come to the conclusion that the continued instability and the perpetual sectarian strife induced by the invasion was deliberate.
Same is true in Libya and Syria.
Albertoo
(2,016 posts)So deplorably 'thought' out that leaders became panicky not to repeat the same mess.
TacoD
(581 posts)Any other source besides a CNN "iReport?"
PufPuf23
(8,859 posts)The general gist of the line items can be found in various places online and on links others have provided in this thread.
Here is one example: http://www.counterpunch.org/2011/08/31/the-top-ten-myths-in-the-war-against-libya/
Speaking of the breadth of Gaddafis record, that ought to resist simplistic, revisionist reduction, some might care to note that even now, the U.S. State Departments webpage on Libya still points to a Library of Congress Country Study on Libya that features some of the Gaddafi governments many social welfare achievements over the years in the areas of medical care, public housing, and education. In addition, Libyans have the highest literacy rate in Africa (see UNDP, p. 171) and Libya is the only continental African nation to rank high in the UNDPs Human Development Index. Even the BBC recognized these achievements:
Women in Libya are free to work and to dress as they like, subject to family constraints. Life expectancy is in the seventies. And per capita incomewhile not as high as could be expected given Libyas oil wealth and relatively small population of 6.5mis estimated at $12,000 (£9,000), according to the World Bank. Illiteracy has been almost wiped out, as has homelessnessa chronic problem in the pre-Gaddafi era, where corrugated iron shacks dotted many urban centres around the country.
Here is another interesting link: http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2016/01/06/new-hillary-emails-reveal-true-motive-for-libya-intervention/
The New Years Eve release of over 3,000 new Hillary Clinton emails from the State Department has CNN abuzz over gossipy text messages, the who gets to ride with Hillary selection process set up by her staff, and how a cute Hillary photo fared on Facebook.
But historians of the 2011 NATO war in Libya will be sure to notice a few of the truly explosive confirmations contained in the new emails: admissions of rebel war crimes, special ops trainers inside Libya from nearly the start of protests, Al Qaeda embedded in the U.S. backed opposition, Western nations jockeying for access to Libyan oil, the nefarious origins of the absurd Viagra mass rape claim, and concern over Gaddafis gold and silver reserves threatening European currency
valerief
(53,235 posts)PufPuf23
(8,859 posts)the destruction of the country and lives of the common Libyan was warranted and they deserved life in a hell hole.
valerief
(53,235 posts)PufPuf23
(8,859 posts)valerief
(53,235 posts)Mosby
(16,424 posts)the average Libyan makes 17O dollars a month but when they get married the government gives them 50K for housing. That's 24.5 years on family income, how awesome is that!
30% of Libyans are unemployed.
everything in your post is a lie.
PufPuf23
(8,859 posts)Explain this then:
Speaking of the breadth of Gaddafis record, that ought to resist simplistic, revisionist reduction, some might care to note that even now, the U.S. State Departments webpage on Libya still points to a Library of Congress Country Study on Libya that features some of the Gaddafi governments many social welfare achievements over the years in the areas of medical care, public housing, and education. In addition, Libyans have the highest literacy rate in Africa (see UNDP, p. 171) and Libya is the only continental African nation to rank high in the UNDPs Human Development Index. Even the BBC recognized these achievements:
Women in Libya are free to work and to dress as they like, subject to family constraints. Life expectancy is in the seventies. And per capita incomewhile not as high as could be expected given Libyas oil wealth and relatively small population of 6.5mis estimated at $12,000 (£9,000), according to the World Bank. Illiteracy has been almost wiped out, as has homelessnessa chronic problem in the pre-Gaddafi era, where corrugated iron shacks dotted many urban centres around the country.
------------
My post was to rattle a cage and is anti-intervention not pro-Gadaffi. There is a difference.
Good Democrats at DU have posted many links and opinions in this thread making the issue less black and white.
Aside because of your avatar:
I made a beagle post yesterday and do on occasion as I have had 5 beagles in my life.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7823087
Kaleva
(36,409 posts)The West is very tolerant of despots who stay within their own borders.
Zynx
(21,328 posts)oil revenues, but if you stepped out of line he killed you. Same thing is true in Kuwait or Saudi Arabia, largely.
He also bombed protesters and either brutalized or killed dissidents. You seem to be leaving that part out.
PufPuf23
(8,859 posts)that the harm done to the common Libyan people by the covert support given the Islamic radicals to destabilize Libya followed by a bombing campaign supposed to protect the Libyan people instead destroyed their country and made them less well off than with Gadaffi.
I do not support Gadaffi nor do I make Libya under Gadaffi a black and white issue as I have repeated said when folks want to make this thread about Gadaffi rather than the harm done to the people of Libya almost surely under false pretenses to steal their wealth.
Libya was far from perfect but was one of the more successful countries in Africa for its people.
The intervention left Libya devastated and under the influence of radical Islamists and then Libya served as a staging area for ISIS fighters and equipment into Syria,
Prior to the covert ops and bombing, the intervention by western powers, Libya enjoyed a much freer society with fairer wealth distribution than the monarchies of the Persian Gulf such as our allies Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, and Qatar, Conditions in particular much better for women and blacks.
Many good Democrats and DUers provided links regarding some nuance on what occurred in this thread.
Note what the State Department's own webpage said about Libya.:
Speaking of the breadth of Gaddafis record, that ought to resist simplistic, revisionist reduction, some might care to note that even now, the U.S. State Departments webpage on Libya still points to a Library of Congress Country Study on Libya that features some of the Gaddafi governments many social welfare achievements over the years in the areas of medical care, public housing, and education. In addition, Libyans have the highest literacy rate in Africa (see UNDP, p. 171) and Libya is the only continental African nation to rank high in the UNDPs Human Development Index. Even the BBC recognized these achievements:
Women in Libya are free to work and to dress as they like, subject to family constraints. Life expectancy is in the seventies. And per capita incomewhile not as high as could be expected given Libyas oil wealth and relatively small population of 6.5mis estimated at $12,000 (£9,000), according to the World Bank. Illiteracy has been almost wiped out, as has homelessnessa chronic problem in the pre-Gaddafi era, where corrugated iron shacks dotted many urban centres around the country.
bhikkhu
(10,728 posts)Mao, Pol Pot, Mussolini, Mugabe, Hitler, etc, etc. For the most part, every military dictator or absolute ruler has the best intentions of the populace at heart, and has a head full of wonderful ideas about how to make things perfect for everybody. Its not the policies and the good intentions that matter, its how they are put into practice. Its easy to say that Qadafi (and any other dictator among those mentioned) would have succeeded and delivered the general prosperity he planned to implement, if only the rest of the world let him. In practice, his reign was a long descent, and he clung to power for so long by violence and fear of violence. So it goes.
Its absurd to find him idealized here, for the sake of criticizing Hillary Clinton for supporting the revolution that brought him down.
PufPuf23
(8,859 posts)the military intervention in Libya and the poor results for the common Libyan people and questionable motives of the western powers that destabilized by covert means and then bombed Libya into a hell hole.
I do not and never have idolized Gadaffi and, if you bother to read, I certainly do not in this thread.
Gadaffi was a dictator and he and his family were unlikely to take leave quietly.
I agree with what you say about military dictators and lump Gadaffi in your club.
To repeat, here is what was destroyed in order to loot one of the most prosperous and free counties in Africa, especially for woman and blacks in a majority Arab country.
Note what the State Department's own webpage said about Libya.:
Speaking of the breadth of Gaddafis record, that ought to resist simplistic, revisionist reduction, some might care to note that even now, the U.S. State Departments webpage on Libya still points to a Library of Congress Country Study on Libya that features some of the Gaddafi governments many social welfare achievements over the years in the areas of medical care, public housing, and education. In addition, Libyans have the highest literacy rate in Africa (see UNDP, p. 171) and Libya is the only continental African nation to rank high in the UNDPs Human Development Index. Even the BBC recognized these achievements:
Women in Libya are free to work and to dress as they like, subject to family constraints. Life expectancy is in the seventies. And per capita incomewhile not as high as could be expected given Libyas oil wealth and relatively small population of 6.5mis estimated at $12,000 (£9,000), according to the World Bank. Illiteracy has been almost wiped out, as has homelessnessa chronic problem in the pre-Gaddafi era, where corrugated iron shacks dotted many urban centers around the country.
bhikkhu
(10,728 posts)though revolutions seldom go as planned, looking at history. Our own was looking like a failure for the first few years, perhaps it was more accident than fate that it turned out well enough, eventually.
PufPuf23
(8,859 posts)Who said anything about the intent of the revolution?
I said intent of the intervention.
There was no "revolution" in Libya.
The radical Islamic rebels were armed and aided with covert ops and Libya was destabilized and bombed.
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)one who is not a Christian, that is still up in the air.
And it is on top of the bones of tens of millions of native victims, the destruction of their culture, and their imprisonment on lands they live on, in poverty, today.
But, we got cable, so perhaps you are correct.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,235 posts).....can you really blame the pushback for us reading it like a glowing endorsement of the man?
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)Nobody cares how much you know, until they know how much you care.
Theodore Roosevelt
about what they care about, that is.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,235 posts)Trump says he wants to "Make America Great Again".
On the surface, that sounds like a good thing, right?
(We're smart enough to know that either it's not, or he's just full of shit.)
Alkene
(752 posts)Gadhafis plan to quit selling Libyan oil in U.S. dollars demanding payment instead in gold-backed dinars, was probably an animated topic between the Owners and their Jackals.
Feeling the Bern
(3,839 posts)Pan Am over Lockerbie, his prison system, his nepotism, his slaughtering of opposition.
When did dictators become heroes here?
Lodestar
(2,388 posts)in Venezuela, and one reason Russia kicked out the oligarchs and reclaimed
their oil. So regardless of what one thinks about Gaddafi, he certainly had
our number on that score.
Jitter65
(3,089 posts)President. Problem is no one wanted to talk about it UNTIL now. Probably because they can trash talk about Hillary. No one seemed to care about the good that Gaddafi had done or that he was in fact trying to establish good relations with the world community after being set up by the Reagan administration as part of the evil empire. No one wanted to talk about how the Israelis helped Reagan with a false-flag operation that made it look like Gaddafi blew up a site and how the Lockerbie incident was planned and carried out by an Israeli-US operation.
People coming out now, trashing Hillary about Libya, with their fake compassion ignored ALL the signs that Libya was being set up..just like Iraq for hits under the PNAC agenda.
So yes, all that info is true. So what? The situation is what it is now. Hillary as SOS was following orders land giving her best advice on how to meet the trumped up threat of Libya. Didn't hear your voices then, don't want to hear them now. Deal with the present. Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton. Your choice!
hueymahl
(2,515 posts)What the fuck is wrong with you people who rec'd this 83 times (and counting)?
From your same wikipedia link:
In 1971 Gaddafi warned that if France opposes Libyan military occupation of Chad, he will use all weapons in the war against France including the "revolutionary weapon".[47] On 11 June 1972, Gaddafi announced that any Arab wishing to volunteer for Palestinian terrorist groups "can register his name at any Libyan embassy will be given adequate training for combat". He also promised financial support for attacks.[68] On 7 October 1972, Gaddafi praised the Lod Airport massacre, executed by the communist Japanese Red Army, and demanded Palestinian terrorist groups to carry out similar attacks.[68]
Reportedly, Gaddafi was a major financier of the "Black September Movement" which perpetrated the Munich massacre at the 1972 Summer Olympics.[2] In 1973 the Irish Naval Service intercepted the vessel Claudia in Irish territorial waters, which carried Soviet arms from Libya to the Provisional IRA.[69][70] In 1976 after a series of terror activities by the Provisional IRA, Gaddafi announced that "the bombs which are convulsing Britain and breaking its spirit are the bombs of Libyan people. We have sent them to the Irish revolutionaries so that the British will pay the price for their past deeds".[68]
In the Philippines, Libya backed the Moro Islamic Liberation Front, which continues to carry out acts of violence in an effort to establish a separatist Islamic state in the southern Philippines.[71] Libya has also supported the New People's Army[72] and Libyan agents were seen meeting with the Communist Party of the Philippines.[73] Islamist terrorist group Abu Sayyaf has also been suspected of receiving Libyan funding.[74]
Gaddafi also became a strong supporter of the Palestine Liberation Organization, which support ultimately harmed Libya's relations with Egypt, when in 1979 Egypt pursued a peace agreement with Israel. As Libya's relations with Egypt worsened, Gaddafi sought closer relations with the Soviet Union. Libya became the first country outside the Soviet bloc to receive the supersonic MiG-25 combat fighters, but Soviet-Libyan relations remained relatively distant. Gaddafi also sought to increase Libyan influence, especially in states with an Islamic population, by calling for the creation of a Saharan Islamic state and supporting anti-government forces in sub-Saharan Africa.
In the 1970s and the 1980s, this support was sometimes so freely given that even the most unsympathetic groups could obtain Libyan support; often the groups represented ideologies far removed from Gaddafi's own. Gaddafi's approach often tended to confuse international opinion.
In October 1981 Egypt's President Anwar Sadat was assassinated. Gaddafi applauded the murder and remarked that it was a "punishment".[75]
In December 1981, the US State Department invalidated US passports for travel to Libya, and in March 1982, the U.S. declared a ban on the import of Libyan oil.[76]
Gaddafi reportedly spent hundreds of millions of the government's money on training and arming Sandinistas in Nicaragua.[77] Daniel Ortega, the President of Nicaragua, was his ally.
In April 1984, Libyan refugees in London protested against execution of two dissidents. Communications intercepted by MI5 show that Tripoli ordered its diplomats to direct violence against the demonstrators. Libyan diplomats shot at 11 people and killed British policewoman Yvonne Fletcher. The incident led to the breaking off of diplomatic relations between the United Kingdom and Libya for over a decade.[78]
After December 1985 Rome and Vienna airport attacks, which killed 19 and wounded around 140, Gaddafi indicated that he would continue to support the Red Army Faction, the Red Brigades, and the Irish Republican Army as long as European countries support anti-Gaddafi Libyans.[79] The Foreign Minister of Libya also called the massacres "heroic acts".[80]
In 1986, Libyan state television announced that Libya was training suicide squads to attack American and European interests.[81]
On 5 April 1986, Libyan agents were alleged with bombing the "La Belle" nightclub in West Berlin, killing three people and injuring 229 people who were spending evening there. Gaddafi's plan was intercepted by Western intelligence. More-detailed information was retrieved years later when Stasi archives were investigated by the reunited Germany. Libyan agents who had carried out the operation from the Libyan embassy in East Germany were prosecuted by reunited Germany in the 1990s.[82]
In May 1987, Australia broke off relations with Libya because of its role in fueling violence in Oceania.[72][83][84]
Under Gaddafi, Libya had a long history of supporting the Irish Republican Army. In late 1987 French authorities stopped a merchant vessel, the MV Eksund, which was delivering a 150-ton Libyan arms shipment to the IRA.[85] In Britain, Gaddafi's best-known political subsidiary is the Workers Revolutionary Party.[84][86]
Gaddafi fueled a number of Islamist and communist groups in the Philippines, including the New People's Army of the Communist Party of the Philippines and the Moro Islamic Liberation Front.[25][71][72][74][79]
In Indonesia, the Free Aceh Movement was a Libyan-backed militant group.[87] Vanuatu's ruling party enjoyed Libyan support.[72]
In New Zealand, Libya attempted to radicalize Māoris.[72]
In Australia, there were several cases of attempted radicalisation of Australian Aborigines, with individuals receiving paramilitary training in Libya. Libya put several left-wing unions on the Libyan payroll, such as the Food Preservers Union (FPU) and the Federated Confectioners Association of Australia (FCA). Labour Party politician Bill Hartley, the secretary of Libya-Australia friendship society, was long-term supporter of Gaddafi and Saddam Hussein.[72][83][84]
In the 1980s, the Libyan government purchased advertisements in Arabic-language newspapers in Australia asking for Australian Arabs to join the military units of his worldwide struggle against imperialism. In part, because of this, Australia banned recruitment of foreign mercenaries in Australia.[84]
Gaddafi developed a relationship with the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, becoming acquainted with its leaders in meetings of revolutionary groups regularly hosted in Libya.[51][58]
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,235 posts)"X criticized US policy, so let's get behind X."
Very few people, if any, here at DU believe the US and US foreign policy is beyond reproach or criticism. I certainly don't. However, can we please not hop onto the bandwagon of anyone who might have stood in the way of US foreign policy is automatically a good authority or sainted or what have you?
It's Catherina nonsense and it's embarrassing.
PufPuf23
(8,859 posts)work with the nations of NATO but wanted to retain the wealth of Libyans for Libya and further the interests of Africa concurrently.
Most certain Gadaffi remained a vain glorious man.
The PO and thread is about the deliberate destabilization of Libya and subsequent military intervention and specifically not Gadaffi.
hueymahl
(2,515 posts)But go ahead and prop him up. Put Trump in charge of Libya and, other than the fake tan, it would be hard to tell them apart.
angrychair
(8,759 posts)It housed our largest military base outside the US, Wheelus Air Force Base, until oil was discovered in 1959 and in the subsequent 10 years we catered to and fostered a money grab and ensured US oil interest dominated the situation in the country. These situations lead to the coup and the problems some here are complaining about. We created the problems in 2011 that we are now complaining about.
PufPuf23
(8,859 posts)The Russian navy could significantly expand its presence in the Mediterranean after it emerged yesterday that Libya's leader, Muammar Gadafy, has offered Moscow the chance to open a base on its coastline.
Gadafy flew into Russia for his first visit since 1985 last night, meeting President Dmitry Medvedev for dinner ahead of talks on more than a billion pounds worth of arms purchases for Libya and cooperation over nuclear energy.
Citing a source involved in organising the visit, the business daily Kommersant said the Libyan leader wanted to offer the Kremlin a naval base in the port of Benghazi in order for Russia to establish a permanent base on the north African coast.
"In line with the Libyan leader's plan, Russia's military presence will become a guarantee of non-aggression from the United States which, despite numerous conciliatory gestures, is not in a hurry to embrace Col Gadafy," the paper said.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/nov/01/libya-russia-gadafy-united-states
IronLionZion
(45,680 posts)and often believe they are doing good things for their people and it's always those evil foreigners who are ruining their country.
Maybe you can post something like this about Trump soon.
bhikkhu
(10,728 posts)Libya was much closer to North Korea. Why idealize Qadafi?
Hillary Clinton and the Democratic party platform she has always supported and worked toward would nudge the country more along the path to the northern European model. The narrative in the OP is pure RW BS, under the guise of advocating for socialism.
uhnope
(6,419 posts)put out by white supremacists.
Just as insane, ridiculous, cruel and stupid.
MrScorpio
(73,631 posts)Ghaddafi, friend of the proletariat.
LiberalLovinLug
(14,180 posts)It should be obvious that Western nations adopt Western values and ways to define other countries states of being. They are a different culture. Even if you don't agree with the draconian dictatorship and the abuse of power and humanitarian crimes that go with it, the West seem to have zero knowledge about just what happens when you removes the "best of all evils". In Iran decades ago, in Iraq, and in Libya. There has to be, dare I say, a third way. To slowly encourage democratic boosters within their countries. Because even the concept of democracy is foreign to them. At least as far as fair elections, and the rights of press and opposition parties.
I think Afghanistan could have been a city on the hill. Once they invaded anyways, then every nation should have contibuted more troops. And secure the entire nation, not just Kabul. Have secure elections all over the country for at least one cycle. Let them get to understand what democracy entails. Get used to it a bit. These countries have no mental concept of actually having the responsibility individually to effect who leads them.
Bombing the hell out of their countries, leaving them in ruins, and then hightailing it out of there is a recipe for disaster.
PufPuf23
(8,859 posts)niyad
(114,007 posts)videohead5
(2,196 posts)189 Americans died on that flight.Gaddafi had blood on his hands...I can't believe people on here talking about Hillary has blood on her hands it's just bunk.Gaddafi was torturing and killing unarmed people.
Lady_Chat
(561 posts)December 21, 1988 All 243 passengers and 16 crew members were killed, as were eleven residents of Lockerbie on the ground. Of the 270 total fatalities, 189 were American citizens and 43 were British citizens.
Thirty-five of the passengers were students from Syracuse University returning home for Christmas following a semester studying in London at Syracuse's London campus.
"As Libya takes stock, Moammar Kadafi's hidden riches astound"
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/oct/21/world/la-fg-kadafi-money-20111022
"Officials of the transitional government point to the secret transfer of so much wealth as proof that Kadafi, who once gave himself the title "King of Kings," had imperial ambitions for himself but little concern for most Libyans".
"Kadafi was sending vast sums abroad "at a time when Libyans were struggling for the money they needed for schools, hospitals and all sorts of infrastructure"
"King of Kings"? More like "King of Thugs" He's dead...no great loss.
PufPuf23
(8,859 posts)It is questionable as to Gadaffi's personal prior knowledge of the terrorism event.
No one in their right mind would support this form of terrorism.
How many days have a like number of innocents been killed by our bombs bringing "freedom" or fighting "terrorism"?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_103
Pan Am Flight 103 was a regularly scheduled Pan Am transatlantic flight from Frankfurt to Detroit, via London and New York. On 21 December 1988, N739PA, the aircraft operating the transatlantic leg of the route, was destroyed by a terrorist bomb, killing all 243 passengers and 16 crew, in what became known as the Lockerbie bombing.[3] Large sections of the aircraft crashed onto residential areas of Lockerbie, Scotland, killing 11 more people on the ground.
Following a three-year joint investigation by Dumfries and Galloway Constabulary and the US Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), arrest warrants were issued for two Libyan nationals in November 1991. In 1999, Libyan leader Colonel Muammar Gaddafi handed over the two men for trial at Camp Zeist, Netherlands after protracted negotiations and UN sanctions. In 2001, Libyan intelligence officer Abdelbaset al-Megrahi was jailed for life after being found guilty of 270 counts of murder in connection with the bombing. In August 2009, he was released by the Scottish Government on compassionate grounds after being diagnosed with prostate cancer. He died in May 2012, the only person to be convicted for the attack. He had continually asserted his innocence.
In 2003, Gaddafi accepted responsibility for the Lockerbie bombing and paid compensation to the families of the victims, although he maintained that he had never given the order for the attack.[4] During the Libyan Civil War in 2011, a former government official claimed that the Libyan leader had personally ordered the bombing.[4]
6chars
(3,967 posts)awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)that now we have to make a case for Ghaddaffi sainthood? I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue.
PufPuf23
(8,859 posts)I and others in this thread had made strong case for the wrongness of the intervention in Libya nothing more.
Who said anything about Hillary Clinton? I didn't.
Clinton may have been involved but at worst Clinton was along for the neo-liberal and neo-conservative ride.
Support neo-liberals and neo-conservatives if you desire.
Go back to your glue.
PufPuf23
(8,859 posts)It has seemed to me, for as long as Ive been watching Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama make foreign and national-security policy, that the differences in outlook and approach between the two of them are fundamental and dramatic. I would call these differences profound, but I dont want to be accused of hyperbole. It is not just that Clinton has a bias toward action in the international arena, and that Obama is far more hesitant, far more aware (too aware, in the eyes of critics) of the downside of action; it is that there are basic differences in the way they understand Americas role in the world, and the qualities that make America exceptional. They also differ, to my eye, in their understanding of American indispensability, and of the relationship between power and diplomacy.
The only person I know who spends more time thinking about the dispositional and ideological differences between Obama and Clinton than I do is Mark Landler, the New York Times reporter who has covered the Obama White House and the Clinton State Department and who recently published a book, Alter Egos (its very long and serious subtitle: Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, and the Twilight Struggle Over American Power), that explores these differences through the prism, mainly, of the Middle East crises that have consumed the Obama administration. Landler has written an excellent book, the definitive examination to date of, among other things, a president who has tried to extract the U.S. from the Middle East (without much success, it goes almost without saying). Alter Egos is also the most authoritative attempt to explain Obamas complicated relationship with his first-term secretary of state, a thwarted competitor-turned-staffer who, if she wins the presidency this year, will inherit a world that is in some ways as messy as the one Obama himself inherited from George W. Bush.
Hillary Clinton: 'Failure' to Help Syrian Rebels Led to the Rise of ISIS
Landler and I dont see eye-to-eye on the differences between Obama and Clinton; he thinks that she will make foreign policy in a more cautious manner than I believe she will. I tend to think, most of the time, at least, that her Libya experience did not diminish her ardor for the arena. On Ukraine and Syria, for instance, she thinks in more overtly interventionist terms than does Obama. In an interview I conducted with Clinton two summers ago (one that drew attention for her implicit criticism of Obamas unofficial foreign-policy slogan, Dont do stupid shit), she convinced me that she, unlike Obama, has the heart of a Cold Warrior. In what I took to be another shot at Obama, she said, You know, when youre down on yourself, and when you are hunkering down and pulling back, youre not going to make any better decisions than when you were aggressively, belligerently putting yourself forward. One issue is that we dont even tell our own story very well these days.
I didnt have much doubt about the identity of the we in her statement. I responded to her assertion by saying something I believe deeply, which is that America, in the last century, saved civilization. I thought, I told Clinton, that, defeating fascism and communism is a pretty big deal.
more at link.
SunSeeker
(51,824 posts)They are why DU is not taken seriously.
Libya was not a Swedish-style socialist paradise. It was a dictatorship run by a murderous deranged lunatic who included among his credits bringing down a whole passenger jet full of innocents. http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/feb/23/gaddafi-lockerbie-bombing-minister-libya
PufPuf23
(8,859 posts)Good long term Democrats and members of DU added meat to this thread regards the military intervention in Libya and the consequences.
I am sorry you do not care to read or that the content you read is not that comfortable to be read and accepted.
Read your own link and what you describe is not so black and white.
Gadaffi had renounced terrorism in general, delivered two perps who were convicted, paid out more than $1billion in claims (according to your link), and been in cooperation with the USA regards the War on Terror and renditions.
Twenty-three years after the Lockerbie event an enemy of Gadaffi blames Gadaffi personally in the propaganda run-up to the bombing of Libya for "humanitarian" reasons.
Whoever said this, "Libya was a Swedish-style socialist paradise."?
SunSeeker
(51,824 posts)I won't waste any more of my time on it nor give this dreck any more kicks than I already did.
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)greatauntoftriplets
(175,776 posts)I've been there. You can still see the scars on the land where 270 people died. Killed by Gadaffi.
PufPuf23
(8,859 posts)justified by "humanitarian" intervention?
Gadaffi later renounced terrorism, provided perps that were successfully prosecuted, and paid reparations to families of victims, reportedly over $1 billion according to a link provided by a poster that did not like the OP and thread.
What does Lockerbie have to do with the USA and allies backing and providing arms and covert ops to destabilize Libya and then destroying Libya by bombing, stealing foreign accounts, and leaving the nation at the mercy of radical Islamists?
What about the innocent people of Libya?
treestar
(82,383 posts)and freedom to change their government.
PufPuf23
(8,859 posts)If one reads the thread, one can readily see that I do not hold Gadaffi and in high regard.
However much an asshole, the common Libyan people, especially woman and blacks, would have been far better off had Gadaffi lived a natural life.
The USA and allies armed and provided covert ops to our supposed enemies in the War on Terror (because they were also enemies of Gadaffi) who destabilized the country and were conducting genocide on black Libyans and black guest workers in Libya.
We then enacted a "no fly zone" for "humanitarian" reasons and bomber the innocent Libyan population and civilian infrastructure and left the nation to the mercy of radical and violent Islamists.
One has to question the true motivation for the intervention in Libya.
Good Democrats and long term DUers added much good background to this thread if one takes the time to read.
From the State Department website:
Speaking of the breadth of Gaddafis record, that ought to resist simplistic, revisionist reduction, some might care to note that even now, the U.S. State Departments webpage on Libya still points to a Library of Congress Country Study on Libya that features some of the Gaddafi governments many social welfare achievements over the years in the areas of medical care, public housing, and education. In addition, Libyans have the highest literacy rate in Africa (see UNDP, p. 171) and Libya is the only continental African nation to rank high in the UNDPs Human Development Index. Even the BBC recognized these achievements:
Women in Libya are free to work and to dress as they like, subject to family constraints. Life expectancy is in the seventies. And per capita incomewhile not as high as could be expected given Libyas oil wealth and relatively small population of 6.5mis estimated at $12,000 (£9,000), according to the World Bank. Illiteracy has been almost wiped out, as has homelessnessa chronic problem in the pre-Gaddafi era, where corrugated iron shacks dotted many urban centres around the country.
I had deliberately avoided mentioning Hillary Clinton's role in Libya previously in this thread.
So here is another interesting link: http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2016/01/06/new-hillary-emails-reveal-true-motive-for-libya-intervention/
The New Years Eve release of over 3,000 new Hillary Clinton emails from the State Department has CNN abuzz over gossipy text messages, the who gets to ride with Hillary selection process set up by her staff, and how a cute Hillary photo fared on Facebook.
But historians of the 2011 NATO war in Libya will be sure to notice a few of the truly explosive confirmations contained in the new emails: admissions of rebel war crimes, special ops trainers inside Libya from nearly the start of protests, Al Qaeda embedded in the U.S. backed opposition, Western nations jockeying for access to Libyan oil, the nefarious origins of the absurd Viagra mass rape claim, and concern over Gaddafis gold and silver reserves threatening European currency
treestar
(82,383 posts)Then there would not have been a revolt.
Also from there:
The country was wealthy from oil, which involves those big old corrupt oil companies - how come they allowed Libya of all places to pay women to have children and couples to get married? And buy farms for anyone who wants them?
Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)edgineered
(2,101 posts)jamzrockz
(1,333 posts)Funny how there is very little mention of the very glorious freeing of another MENA country from a monstrous dictator to the point where they are free of their natural resources and slavery is back in the country on this website.
The fantastic thing about this one successful Obama intervention is that the country was made to pay for the cost(according to Rachel Maddow). Slavery in North Africa brought about by the actions of the west. You cannot make this shit up.
But lets waste our time discussing the so called Trump and Russia connection and how he is capitulating to the Russians on Syria (which he did not do). He is still funding the Kurdish and Arab destabilizing forces not unlike the sort of forces used to turn Libya into a slave trading haven.