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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsHow Police and Traffic Light Companies Are Conspiring to Give You More Tickets
http://www.alternet.org/rights/155751/how_police_and_traffic_light_companies_are_conspiring_to_give_you_more_tickets/_640x471_310x220
Many areas of the country are experiencing a sudden rise in the number of speed and traffic cameras installed near roads. While some cameras have been a welcome development in curbing dangerous driving, many motorists have complained about what they perceive as an effort by authorities to simply extract revenue without community input on such policies. Growing evidence that many privatized traffic companies use faulty information, including right-hand turns, to assign red light tickets has only added to the anger. As legislators confront the backlash, a self-interested partnership has formed to lobby against accountability methods for these cameras: police unions and for-profit red-light camera companies.
In state after state, police unions and for-profit traffic camera companies have teamed up to defeat laws proposed to ensure that traffic policies are designed for public safety rather than to collect revenue. In Connecticut, police unions and traffic light companies opposed efforts to simply expand the length of yellow lights despite studies showing that doing so would reduce red light violations by 90 percent in favor of increased for-profit red light cameras. In Florida last year, American Traffic Solutions, one of the largest for-profit camera corporations, hired 17 lobbyists to defeat a similar bill. The company circulated a letter signed by police chiefs, and worked closely with officials from the Florida Sheriffs Association, a labor group, to pressure legislators. In California, a bill by State Sen. Joseph Simitian (D-Palo Alto) to ensure that traffic cameras can only be set up to promote public safety rather than collect revenue was opposed by the California Police Chiefs, a law enforcement labor union group.
The media is beginning to take note of the collusion between police unions and for-profit camera companies. In Texas, a high ranking police union official was reportedly paid simultaneously by American Traffic Solutions to lobby against legislation to limit the use of these cameras, according to an investigation by a local ABC News affiliate. Across the country, for-profit traffic light companies have hid behind a front group they set up called the National Coalition for Safer Roads to defeat efforts to ensure traffic lights are only set up for public safety reasons. Police union representatives have appeared with the group.
BeyondGeography
(39,400 posts)Another savvy PR move by police unions.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)PR indicates 'public relations' and I'm not thinking the public is the reason for the support, rather donations to political campaigns by the big business with profit motive to the detriment of the public.
BeyondGeography
(39,400 posts)no_hypocrisy
(46,332 posts)More cameras and less time to clear an intersection between yellow and red. So little time to "beat the light" that you might as well hit the brakes when you see yellow. The lights have been re-calibrated to turn red within 5 seconds.
exboyfil
(17,867 posts)decel? Are you talking about a panic stop on yellow? Unless you are anticipating light change how is your reaction really? I don't think we want cars stopping on a dime at intersections (rear enders anyone?). It would be curious to see how driving simulators do with these shortened yellow lights (especially older drivers).
Reducing time on yellow is a bad idea. I know some of yellows in our area are less than 5 seconds (I was only about 10 feet from one going 35 mph when it turned - I started to decel but would have been in the intersection on stop so I proceeded ahead and caught the front end of a red - I was expecting to see a ticket but did not). It was a really quick yellow.
no_hypocrisy
(46,332 posts)Let's say you are hip to the scam and you hit the brakes on the threshold of the intersection when you see that yellow light. You risk getting rear-ended if you stop as the driver behind you doesn't possess such superior knowledge and intends to "beat the light" and doesn't notice your brake lights. You don't want to be rear-ended? Then you get a ticket for running a red light as I promise you the light will go from yellow to red in less than 5 seconds. Or another scenario: you begin to negotiate the intersection (drive into it), the light turns yellow but traffic doesn't move and you're now in the middle of the intersection with the now red light. Smile, you're on Traffic Camera and you can expect a ticket in the mail. You can go to court of course to argue your situation, but these cameras are like laser/radar devices measuring your speed: hard to argue without an expertise in their technology.
exboyfil
(17,867 posts)and the University of Iowa has the National Advanced Driving Simulator. Standards for intersections could be developed using that technology.
You are right about trapping motorists - it is unsafe and unfair and you are going to get many Republicans and Libertarians to agree as well.
rbixby
(1,140 posts)You didn't run the red light if your car is fully inside the boundaries of the intersection when the light changes to red. So as long as you're in the 'box' that's outlined by the crosswalks before it turns, you're not running it. That's kind of neither here nor there, but I wonder if the law is like that in other states.
NNN0LHI
(67,190 posts)Even when I am waiting at a red light and it turns green I still don't pull out into the intersection without looking to my left and right first in case someone is about to blow their red light. I check for this before continuing through a green light even when I have the right of way.
But now when I am about to pass through an intersection while under a green light I no longer check for oncoming traffic from the left or right. I just keep my eyes glued to the green light in case it turns yellow.
I think these cameras make driving more dangerous.
Don
On the few that I must transit in my area (I normally take routes to avoid them) I watch the crosswalk signals to help anticipate just when the lights will be changing. I should be watching traffic, but one does what one has to do to avoid getting a ticket.
rbixby
(1,140 posts)BadgerKid
(4,564 posts)pipoman
(16,038 posts)of the public should force the US DOT to adopt minimum recommended yellow light times, then if states or municipalities reduce the times it would give ammunition to a defense case. Also any public official taking money from one of these companies should be outed and/or prosecuted.
mopinko
(70,395 posts)as long as there is a fact based and agreed upon standard for the timing of these things i am all for extra "taxes" on jerks and idiots. if a good driver occasionally blows a light, well, it is only one ticket. if i blow a light, i expect a ticket.
there are many of them in chicago and have led to safer streets. all for them.
truebrit71
(20,805 posts)mopinko
(70,395 posts)seems to me that that would be the real issue. your link admits that the most dangerous accidents were reduced. t-bone accidents dropped precipitously. rear end crashes increased to make it look like it might be a wash. but there is no data on the severity of those crashes, or of injuries. hmm. i wonder why.
sorry, but i support asshole taxes. more cameras please.
ieoeja
(9,748 posts)I absolutely love intersections with timers. I remember a lot of people predicting they would cause people to speed up to beat the clock. I have observed and experienced just the opposite.
When a light turns yellow without timers I have to make a snap judgement on whether to brake hard or speed up. If I believe the braking will be too sudden, I go with speed up as the safer choice. At intersections with timers that problem only occurs if I'm not paying attention (in which case it is my own damn fault).
As to the cameras ... I don't see much of a problem. And I'm an aggressive driver. I know exactly one guy who complained about getting unfairly ticketed. But he also believes that his license plate indicating he is a veteran means he is exempt from all parking regulations and frequently gets upset over having to pay a parking ticket. In other words, he's an idiot.
I got a parking ticket once for not having a residential zone City Sticker. The officer placed the ticket on my front window directly over ... my residential zone City Sticker. I wrote on a piece of paper, "this ticket was placed right over my correct city sticker. The officer must have spaced out." I put the paper in the ticket, mailed it back, and that was that. I didn't offer any further evidence because they already have me in their computers as having the correct sticker.
I see people get so bent out of shape over this type of thing. I literally laughed it off. Chicago is incredibly reasonable when it comes to ticketing.
The 'burbs on the other hand....
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,370 posts)I remember when Daley put these things in. You could see the dollar signs in his eyes.
Half the people in my office have received one of these bullshit "asshole taxes".... I must work in a den of dangerous drivers.
Nah. They're just tax payers. Assholes to you.
mopinko
(70,395 posts)bitch about their tickets.
don't run red lights, don't get tickets. simple.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,370 posts)... for revenue generation and you prefer to call people assholes who get caught in the scam?
I have a different opinion of what is an asshole...
mopinko
(70,395 posts)i think there should be national standards. i said that in an earlier post. but there is no evidence that there is anything funky here in chicago, and evidence that it is making driving safer. the linked study merely counts accidents, without counting severity or injury, then meekly admits that it should be counted. but i find it convincing that t-bone accidents are way down even if rear-end accidents are up. these are far less damaging and dangerous. perhaps a little farther down the learning curve everyone will start being more careful at intersections.
when i get a ticket for something, i take the blame. i'm a grown up. if your coworkers are blaming the camera for their tickets, they aren't.
please don't take it personally. just my opinion.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)driving your typical Lexus land yacht pays no more than a driver driving a Nissan Sentra or Toyota Tercel? That's what makes these types of fines a 'regressive tax,' i.e., drivers pay the same amount, regardless of the driver's ability to pay.
I believe justice should be blind, but I also believe the tax system should be progressive. Not sure how you balance those two ideals.
If you don't think this ticket is a tax, then consider vehicle registration fees. Everyone pays the same amount to register the same vehicle, regardless of the person's ability to pay. That, by definition, is a regressive tax.. Calling it a 'fee' is mere window dressing for the naive and uninformed.
KansDem
(28,498 posts)That suggests there was a "problem."
RC
(25,592 posts)kentuck
(111,111 posts)...that the average driver wastes about 1 quart of gas per day at unnecessary stop lights, and considering there are a hundred million cars on the road at any time, this amounts to about 25,000,000 gallons of gas per day, or 5,000,000 barrels of refined oil, which is wasted.
edited my arithmetic
Hubert Flottz
(37,726 posts)the Middle Eastern oil merchants, who help fund terrorists and terrorist organizations out to hurt Europe, the USA and Israel?
lonestarnot
(77,097 posts)ieoeja
(9,748 posts)Chicago has gotten into the habit of speed bumping side streets. If I have to go more than a couple of blocks, I find that I start doing rapid accelerations between the bumps. And everyone else I've talked to about this say the same thing. Aside from the fact that it would seem that they are making things more dangerous, we wonder just how much gas is wasted because of these.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,370 posts)My buddy was for the one they placed in front of his house. Now he has to listen to the thump-thump and cars accelerating all day. He says it's like living on an on-ramp.
NJCher
(35,843 posts)But I didn't know what it was.
They do that around here, too, with the speed bumps. Very freaking annoying. I use my GPS to go around those streets. I have even seen drivers going down them verrrry slow while they talk on the phone or read a book.
Cher
p.s. agree with your posts upthread. You said what I wanted to say.
marmar
(77,131 posts).......we wouldn't have much of an economy these days?
Sometimes.
Strelnikov_
(7,772 posts)All the time.
Without Living Wage Jobs, we have to have something has to give the illusion the economy is still limping along.
Tom Ripley
(4,945 posts)BlueJazz
(25,348 posts)...sometimes scared to slam on you brakes ESPECIALLY if theres a tractor Trailer or large truck behind you.
A policeman would probably give you a break on such actions. A traffic light camera says "Fuck you. Tough Shit."
CanOfWhoopAss
(841 posts)You have one drink and whether your blood alcohol is at legal limits doesn't matter. They just declare you DUI-Safe because you can't hold your liquor and charge you anyway. Who is going to argue against zero tolerance for alcohol? Who is going to argue in behalf of someone charged with DUI? It's literally a racket in some areas.
ieoeja
(9,748 posts)... everyone would have called me nuts and exclaimed that the American people would never put up with that shit.
Obviously, everyone would have been wrong. And Reagan's War On Alcohol is fully supported by many DUers. This old school Liberal does not recognized the modern brand.
Actually, I do recognize it. It's what we called "Radical Right" back in the '70s.
obamanut2012
(26,201 posts)And guess what? The tickets were for other cities were they hadn't even been, and the photo of the car was obviously NOT there car -- different color, make and model. Because the tags were read wrong.
They got the tickets cleared, but it took a lot of time and hassle, and both were called liars when they first called. Well, one was told, literally, "Surrrrre it wasn't you," and the other was told something along the times of, if I had a dollar every time one of you told me that.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)I had to call and explain that:
1. the last time he was in Orange County was to take me to Disney Land for my tenth birthday and
2. the car in question had been destroyed in a fire years ago.
Turned out they had a blurry picture and sent a ticket to their best guess at what the plate number was. I'm sure a lot of people would have sent them the $30 to avoid the hassle.
obamanut2012
(26,201 posts)SecurityManager
(124 posts)Car t boned me and claimed I ran the red, traffic cam images showed he ran the red.
We have them on every pole in my city I am sure there are some people who have issues with them, I do not really think of them that much.
RitchieRich
(292 posts)and just yesterday I commented on how level minded the D's are, for not calling emergency services on conservative bloggers. I guess now I'd be a hypocrite if i mentioned how quickly a well armed nation could make a sport of correcting this problem. Oh well. Just leave it to our friends across the isle.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)No ideology is. But on the balance Conservatism is HELL on Earth.
Javaman
(62,540 posts)a simple google search will bring up dozens of articles from around the US regarding how yellow lights were shortened once red light cams were installed.
Recently however, this happened...
Florida Judge Ruling Finds Red Light Cameras Unconstitutional
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/florida-judge-ruling-finds-red-light-cameras-unconstitutional/
A man from Pasco County, Fla., who got nabbed by a traffic camera to catch red light runners believes the camera was wrong both in snapping his license plate and constitutionally. On the constitutional front, Thomas Filippone now has a county judges ruling to back him up.
The Tampa Bay Tribune reports that Filippone received a $158 traffic ticket, but he wasnt about to pay up and be more careful with the reds next time:
If they are going to prove I was driving the car, its their duty under the law to prove the identity of the driver, said Filippone, 45, who maintains his 2002 Nissan Altima crossed the intersection a split second before the light turned red on April 15. It unjustly shifts burden to me and makes me shoulder the burden of having to prove their case.
Pasco County Judge Anne Wansboro was in agreement and dismissed the case Filippone brought before her stating that use of the cameras impermissibly shifts the burden of proof to the Defendant and therefore does not afford due process, and is unconstitutional to the extent due process is not provided.
more at link...
Major Nikon
(36,828 posts)They call it an "administrative" fine, which means they aren't alleging you broke any laws, just that your vehicle did, and since you are responsible for your vehicle, they don't have to prove you were driving it. If you don't pay, you don't get a warrant issued, but you do get turned over to a collection agency.
Scurrilous
(38,687 posts)NJCher
(35,843 posts)I didn't know the police unions were colluding with the red light camera companies to get more of these setups at intersections. One would think the officers would oppose it, yes? More tickets for them to deliver manually?
The subject of red light cameras was a topic I offered my public speaking and writing/research students during this last semester. I had approximately three students do their speeches or research papers on it. From their research I learned there is research that shows accidents increase at intersections with red light cameras.
Also that many places have gotten rid of them for just that reason.
I offered this as a topic because the county or town put a red light camera at a major intersection near my university. I saw many students were getting tickets from it, and the tickets are not inexpensive--$80 for a right on red at this intersection.
Despite being aware of it, I almost got caught in it, due to the short yellow. I stopped outside the white line in the crosswalk and I saw the light of the camera go off. I stopped. Later I asked a student who had several of these tickets if she thought I would get the ticket and she said no because the camera takes three shots as the driver goes through the intersection. She said I would know in about a month as that is how long it takes to get the ticket out.
Want to know where these cameras are in your state? There's a web site that will produce a map of them in your area.
NJ residents opposed to these cameras should sign a petition. A legislator has come out against them.
Cher
dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)tho it is surprising, if the map is correct, that a couple of cameras are in small towns, yet none in Mobile.
Essentially only in the Montgomery and Birmingham area.
cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)and I clearly stopped in the video for 1/10th of a second and turned.
Now I have to go in to court and take an hour off work to try to avoid the $100 fine. I heard 90% of red light cameras get right turn on red people.
raouldukelives
(5,178 posts)Many things are done under the guise of public safety but with the end concern to be maximizing profit, as always. How can we frame an idea as a better way serve you but with our end concern only being increasing our revenue stream?
Day after day the drivers I encounter on our highways are almost suicidal maniacs. They tailgate you at 65 mph. Something I recall police stopping people for and warning for in my younger days. Same goes with headlights. When I was a kid we got pulled over once and the officer checked the calibration on the headlights saying they may have been adjusted too high and we should fix it. Now people come at me with tiny suns for headlights. I've nearly had to come to a stop sometimes.
I've had people start passing me on the shoulder the last few years. It just happened the other day by some asshole in a black Mercedes that passed me and the big rig in front of me on the right hand shoulder doing easily twice my speed in a school zone.
I watch people rage, speed, tailgate and weave like drunken boxers all in full view of police cars and with nary a notice from them. Heck, half the police cars I see look like they don't have a clue how to drive as well.
Toss in climate change concerns and watching the way people drive today makes you feel sick for the defenseless creatures of this planet. Nothing sadly funnier than a giant SUV with a "Keep Tahoe Blue" sticker on it that guns it at every light. Fat, clueless, angry and only concerned with themselves. Just the way we raise em to be.
Major Nikon
(36,828 posts)Such companies will inevitably lobby against the public's interest. The same thing happens with private prisons.
So not only does the public pay more for less, they get a quasi-government 3rd party that works against the public's interest. Only a repug could love shit like this.
Blue Owl
(50,609 posts)n/t
Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)Ask Norm Stamper.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)We have had two company cars written off at the same Calgary intersection after being tail-ended stopping on yellow. The ones here also ticket for speed on green - which causes even more tail-end accidents because drivers are looking at their speedometer and not the car ahead of them as they enter the intersection.