General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsNice Attacker Spent Years in Therapy, Was No Islamist...uninterested in religion.
Family speaks of violent nervous breakdowns as a result of psychological problems, but neighbors and other relatives say Mohamed Lahouaiej Bouhlel most often seemed unassuming, sporty and uninterested in religion.
"My brother had psychological problems, and we have given the police documents showing that he had been seeing psychologists for several years," Rabeb Bouhlel, Mohamed Lahouaiej Bouhlel's sister, told Reuters.
Bouhlel's father told French television that the family had sought medical treatment after his son had a breakdown.
Silver_Witch
(1,820 posts)we must stop the fearmonging.
6chars
(3,967 posts)Cirque du So-What
(26,042 posts)Her Sister
(6,444 posts)PersonNumber503602
(1,134 posts)Cirque du So-What
(26,042 posts)is choc-abloc with assurances that the attacker underwent a 'last-minute' radicalization. Sure would like to see that meme put to rest.
6chars
(3,967 posts)It remained unclear whether the Islamic State had directed the attack, was taking responsibility for an assault it inspired or was simply seeking publicity from an event in which it had no direct hand. But no matter the exact connection to organized groups, investigators appear to believe that Mohamed Lahouaiej Bouhlel, 31, was taking his cues from their message.
The link underscores the difficulty of preventing the spread of extremist ideology in a world where even people like Bouhlel whose family and neighbors portray him as a troubled loner can be spurred to attack without training, resources or connections.
It seems that he radicalized his views very rapidly. These are the first elements that our investigation has come up with through interviews with his acquaintances, Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve said Saturday, without offering details. Five people have been detained for questioning in the case.
We are now facing individuals who are responding positively to the messages issued by the Islamic State without having had any special training and without having access to weapons that allow them to commit mass murder, Cazeneuve said.
One interpretation is that ISIS has a way to get its message to unstable people who will very quickly take it up and act on it.
Igel
(35,393 posts)Because it's politically better to blame the mentally ill than Muslims?
If he was radicalized at the last minute, then he was. If he was mentally ill, then he was. If he was both, then he was both. Rather than seeing "memes" put to rest, I'd rather have something like a fact that's not considered unspeakable just because it's offensive.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)840high
(17,196 posts)MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)bdwker
(435 posts)vkkv
(3,384 posts)MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)MH1
(17,635 posts)appears in fiction books and video games.
Probably didn't have to get the idea from ISIS.
That's not saying he didn't. Just that it isn't the only place he could have gotten it.
dlwickham
(3,316 posts)okay then...
MH1
(17,635 posts)of sources for ideas as to techniques.
The poster I was responding to, seemed to be suggesting that he copied ISIS techniques. That is no more a logical inference than to assume he saw it in a video game or a book. (Did you think I was blaming books, too?)
mwrguy
(3,245 posts)among others
Nevernose
(13,081 posts)But blame video games now. Not his mental health or what the French authorities are calling a rapid radicalization. Perfect sense
MH1
(17,635 posts)So I wouldn't know that. But somehow I'd heard of killing people by plowing into them with a car or truck before.*
Also you didn't bother to read to my reply to the first poster who's hot button was "video games" as if I had suggested confiscating gunz to a gun lover. (which was not at all the point of my post, but apparently the use of certain words has a trigger effect on some people)
Sheesh, just fucking sheesh.
*Someone mentioned it's in the Grand Theft Auto game. If that is true, then WHY would you assume the guy got it from "Al Qaeda Magazine" and not "Grand Theft Auto"?
MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)throw us off his true motives
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)invented mass murder?
840high
(17,196 posts)MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)in their murders.
melman
(7,681 posts)Where did he get the money?
Albertoo
(2,016 posts)Terrorists are often 'bad' Muslims (petty criminals who do booze and drugs) who seize the offer of redemption fanatic islamists sell them.
An ex-Muslim posted a thread on that very point here yesterday, explaining why the non-observant Muslims can be recruited by being offered 'redemption' in jihad.
YOHABLO
(7,358 posts)Albertoo
(2,016 posts)Response to Albertoo (Reply #16)
Post removed
840high
(17,196 posts)backwards to deny what investigators said.
Albertoo
(2,016 posts)Democat
(11,617 posts)As long as it's non-white non-Christian people, they are always innocent.
MH1
(17,635 posts)I'm not denying the possibility that this guy was motivated by ISIS.
However, the fact that he used a tactic that ISIS uses (which I'm not aware of an actual case, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen), which happens to be a tactic that has been used by others, is in fiction books, news and (OMG I don't believe I'm going to type it and bring down The Wrath) ... video games.
It's intellectually lazy, or just plain stupid, or even bigoted, to automatically attach a cause based on a spurious association like that.
Now if there is more, actual evidence, fine, show it. I'm quite open to it. I happen to believe in my gut that he very well may have been radicalized by ISIS. But the guy was apparently mentally flipped out. So maybe that was a bigger cause than anything, you know?
And when I hear people drawing conclusions based on bigoted non-evidence, I'll call bullshit. Which is what I'm doing upthread. And I don't like the insinuations in this subthread that anyone who challenges the flimsy non-evidence being presented here, actually tries to discuss on (gasp) a discussion board, is somehow an apologist for ISIS or Islam.
scscholar
(2,902 posts)awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)scscholar
(2,902 posts)awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)Are they pronouncing it Nice rhyming with ice, or rhyming with niece?
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)Golly...wonder why...hmm.
Oh, wait. I know.
vkkv
(3,384 posts)Yes, Haaretz would definitely have a bias against tagging him as a Muslim terrorist, right?
Haaretz.
840high
(17,196 posts)MH1
(17,635 posts)Funny, I remembered how that was mocked here during the Bush years.
You know, MAYBE, just MAYBE, somebody just wants to discuss the possibility of other factors?
Okay, naw, that can't be it. I guess the reason is whatever you "know" that you're not saying.
Democat
(11,617 posts)except what is probably was.
Joe the Revelator
(14,915 posts)This guy was radicalized. Don't make excuses for him.
840high
(17,196 posts)pkdu
(3,977 posts)" he wasnt a muslim , he didnt go to the mosque , he ate pork , he drank , he was a shit
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Tweeted a bunch of anti gay hate material himself as the graves were being dug, DUers endorsed that hate monger father in their rush to sell the narrative they desired to speak.
In what other cases of mass murder have we turned to the families of the killer to ask them why it happened? Is that the usual method? No, it is not because family always has their own objectives. I mean, Donald Trump's family all claim Trump is a brilliant genius. Does that make it so? They actually know him!!!!
pkdu
(3,977 posts)sometimes a sick self-loathing "shit" is just a sick self-loathing "shit"
GummyBearz
(2,931 posts)melman
(7,681 posts)"He was no Muslim" is meant as an insult.
JI7
(89,290 posts)MowCowWhoHow III
(2,103 posts)https://twitter.com/AFP/status/754583464544829440
malaise
(269,365 posts)full of people.
Just a lone wolf. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141521528
Her Sister
(6,444 posts)Last edited Sun Jul 17, 2016, 08:42 AM - Edit history (1)
Think it could be either way!
Person has mental breakdown and then chooses any rationale (ISIS) to pull off something-something (Some form of terrorist attack)
Person joins ISIS which then leads to mental breakdown & therefore some form of terrorist attack.
MH1
(17,635 posts)what a horrible person you are for not blindly accepting the dominant narrative.
Intellectual curiosity is not always favored by some here, apparently.
Her Sister
(6,444 posts)Seems a bit MUCH! Ridiculous in a way!
and getting OUTRAGED! Wondering what that's about....Hmmmmm...!!!!
&
You do a fantastic Sarah Palin immitation! And I DO mean that as a compliment.
Her Sister
51. Yes I see that! People misunderstanding your meaning above! LOL!
"""""""
Seems a bit MUCH! Ridiculous in a way!
and getting OUTRAGED! Wondering what that's about....Hmmmmm...!!!! """""
Her Sister
(6,444 posts)63. Wow...
View profile
You do a fantastic Sarah Palin immitation! And I DO mean that as a compliment.
Her Sister
51. Yes I see that! People misunderstanding your meaning above! LOL!
"""""""
Seems a bit MUCH! Ridiculous in a way!
and getting OUTRAGED! Wondering what that's about....Hmmmmm...!!!! """""
vkkv
(3,384 posts)are 'mixed', hybrids are formed and evolution takes place. For example: FrankenFish ( the new hybrid salmon)
Next point - It is my and others' opinion that anyone who believes in a great, all-powerful sky-fairy who created each life on earth individually and is granting our after-lives to heaven or a "hell" or Valhalla or Elysian Fields or Happy Hunting Ground even Stovokor -are already mentally ill...
ISIS > Mentally Ill.. Mentally ill > ISIS.. pretty equal in my book.
Just because one read it in a book (the Bible), doesn't make it true. One ( not you) would have to be nuts to think so. Wouldn't you agree?
Her Sister
(6,444 posts)Mental continuum & illness can come from any religion or non-religion. BTW am atheist.
vkkv
(3,384 posts)The parameter you set was: which came first, mental illness or a devotion to ISIS.
Her Sister
(6,444 posts)Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)What the man was in 2005 and 2007 and 2009 and even 2011 is not material to this act.
FAZ has an article summing up what the French are saying:
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/kampf-gegen-den-terror/attentat-in-nizza-sehr-radikal-in-sehr-kurzer-zeit-14344366.html
Unfortunately in German, so here is the Google translate version:
https://translate.google.de/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.faz.net%2Faktuell%2Fpolitik%2Fkampf-gegen-den-terror%2Fattentat-in-nizza-sehr-radikal-in-sehr-kurzer-zeit-14344366.html&edit-text=
The attack was planned. Several witnesses have told the French that, at least recently, the man had become religious in some form. His wife and family probably would not know this, due to not being with him.
The perp had done two drive-throughs before the attack in the rented truck. He asked by text for more weapons before the final attack. The recipient is one of those arrested by the French police after the attack.
Add to that the large amount of money dispatched to family in Tunisia. The money was dispatched through unofficial channels. Who would send all that cash by individuals? How would you know it would get there? Some sort of network was used to do this.
Further, the constant calls to the family in the last month were probably made with the purpose of confirming that the money did get there.
The man did not act alone. It appears he was paid to do it, and his state of mind probably had a lot to do with why he did it, and why he was vulnerable to the teachings of these people.
What confounds me about your reasoning is that most of the terror attackers, esp. in France, have not been conventionally observant of Islam. They have instead been secular criminals who apparently "got religion" in the worst way before their deaths.
Guilt and the desire to cleanse oneself of sins may have a lot to do with these actions. The desire to go out as a "hero" may have something to do with it.
If you looked at the profile of most of the "homegrown" attackers in Europe, it looks very like this man's.
The guy they were hunting for due to the Paris attacks? Never known to be religious; worked in his brother's bar for time; criminal.
The kosher market/Hebdo attackers? Career criminals.
The Morrocan who wanted to whack the train but was taken down by passengers? Dealt drugs in Spain, was wandering around Europe, then "finds" a bag full of heavy weaponry in a park in Belgium and takes the train.
You are not dealing with reality here at all. All the EVIDENCE is that most of the homegrown ones are not the devout ones leading the life they are told to live to go to heaven.
There seems to be a Muslim criminal infrastructure throughout large portions of Europe that probably justifies its deeds on the grounds that they are fighting the infidels and funneling money to Muslim causes; this group appears to be able to draw on its internal resources to find individuals predisposed to die and then draws on its resources to help them die in the "right way".
Albertoo
(2,016 posts)TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)This scumbag was a loser in life, and sees a great reward in a very sensual paradise. (72 virgins or not, there's going to be lots of sex.) He's of an age where his libido is probably quite high, so he buys a ticket to everlasting sex. It sounds too simplistic to be real, but it's not a coincidence that most of the terrorists and supporters of ISIS are male of a certain age. (And ISIS promises them sex with slaves in the ME, too. )
MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)JI7
(89,290 posts)They redeem themselves by going after gays.
At the very least it provides them an excuse.
Quantess
(27,630 posts)Whew!