The old woman proudly stood there with a "Keep Government out of my medicare" sign.

I can't post the photo but you can look that one up.

Classic

I would think...the largest portion who don't acknowledge their govt checks are white southern conservatives...

Sheesh!

There are plenty of red states that aren't in the south. Starting with Idaho and Alaska.

Point it out and they scream and curse.

Things they reference include student loans, social security, mortgage deductions, etc. And those are some of the items at the top of the list.

I would argue those are not a government 'handout'. At all.

Wealthy people with large mortgages get the most from this deduction, especially considering that if you don't itemize you can't use it.

that anytime someone receives any kind benefit or advantage that is paid for with public renenue, it is a "handout" (if that's the way you want to characterize social services).

Those are not paid for with public revenues. Taxes simply reduce the amount you pay into the public revenue pool. Social Security is returning money you already paid in. Students loans have to be repaid in full, with interest, actually adding to the pool.

But with student loans, the public in general is assuming risk.

And can't students take advantage of cost deductions and other benefits that are paid for by the public?

And I have to agree that Social Security and Mortgage deductions aren't government handouts any more than those of us who buy sales tax-free groceries.

In my view, anytime someone takes advantage of the benefits of shared risk associated with social organization, they are receiving a "handout".

Your use of the word is incorrect, and quotation marks don't change that fact.

Any loan carries the risk of default. By your reasoning, banks are giving 'handouts' every time they grant someone a loan.

mitigate the risk. Student loans do not have an equivalent mechanism.

I am not saying it should be this way, but one approach that involved banks would be maintain the difficulty of discharging the debt while not actually guaranteeing the loan amount to the banks. The banks have the additional collection rights, but can decide who gets loans and at what interest rate.

That doesn't make in an entitlement. Now grants are different.

Next weekend in Texas it's a sales-tax-free holiday for anything remotely school-related. That's the state declining to collect taxes.

Is that a subsidy? If you think what you earn is first and foremost yours and the state takes what's yours in taxes, no. If you think that the claim of the state to your income is first and foremost, then it's the state giving you money.

And that's the disagreement many would have--a principled one--with including mortgage interest deductions, education savings, possibly the child tax credit, and other such things. To the extent the child tax credit exceeds taxes owed, it's clearly a subsidy. But it's a credit against government's taking. And notice that the education expense 529 funds are in many ways like IRAs, pre-tax election of insurance payments, or being permitted by a generous government to deduct health expenses or if self-employed what's usually the employer's half of FICA.

Heck, I take the standard deduction. That means the government's giving me money, but only if I assume it's all the government's money to give. I've heard this exact argument made, btw, in lowering tax rates, but only for the rich--when the tax rate went to zero for a higher level of income nobody argued it was a government subsidy--even most progressives said it was just letting the hard-working poor keep more of what they earned.

So that's a real difference in worldview and definitions, not just denial of a simple truth. And that's the top 5.

I'd point out my econ prof way back when had this attitude: The national debt is backed by the total value of all assets in the US, public or private. In other words, before the US declares bankruptcy it can seize and sell off your house and computer, because we all are allowed to keep our earnings and property because the government allows it.

Making it harder to keep everything straight is Congressional budget talk. They speak of "buying out" a tax decrease and make changes not against reality but against a proposed budget. It's confusing not just with who owns pre-tax income, but also in discussions of programmatic budget increases or decreases. "They're cutting the budget by 5%" can mean a "they're increasing the budget by 5%" if the original proposed budget had a 10% increase over the current budget.


Social security is included in this assessment, and properly so. It's an entitlement. But even here a lot of people assume that it's a kind of retirement savings plan. It is government assistance. But it's also dedicated, meaning that it's harder to be clear. What is clear is to accept its inclusion means saying it's an entitlement; to say it's not an entitlement means to exclude it from this assessment.

It is not government assistance in any way. My paycheck clearly shows that.

And they will deny it even when confronted.

hearing aids, scooter chairs, home access ramps and other home improvements,

It's almost an unlimited list, what our government does for us. And I think that's as it should be.

Most people have no idea what their government does for them, they just take everything for granted. When Obama said “if you've got a business, you didn't build that”, rightwing heads exploded. They truly don't comprehend how government funded policies helped build the very infrastructure that supports business and makes our whole country function.

It is not government "aid".

not all of it.

It wouldn't even exist without government. And stop for a minute and consider all the other ancillary services that have evolved around the initial founding of Medicare. Every hospital in this country is accredited to comply with Medicare standards, as are prescription drug formularies, patient privacy rights, medical and surgical practices, nutrition, and how we care for the elderly and the disabled. The associated modalities are massive and complex, and extend far beyond that throw away line.

Farmers.

I know them, hear them, and watch them cash their subsidy checks.

Most don't have much nice to say about Democrats.

He was telling me once that when he was a farmer that he and other farmers would "Farm The Programs". He would also lease more land, farm it for 3 years and then enroll that land into farm aid programs. Clean and Green is another aid program to help farmers. Did I say my neighbor is a Republican? He didn't see that as welfare.

They hate it when you call them on it, too.

I received a lot of government Pell grants to go to university. Since then I have paid it back many times over in tax revenue. When our government invests in our people, it works.

My taxes have and continue to pay for a lot of the subsidies that many others enjoy. So I REALLY resent RW morons who bitch about government "handouts" who are actually receiving them.

That all of those people who went to college on loans or their own dime have also paid a ton of taxes since graduation. But they also had to pay for their entire education.

I'm guessing you didn't graduate with 50K in loans like a lot of kids do. They are at a financial disadvantage from day one. Be glad you weren't.

Most of the adults are on SS disability, all with the same ailment, their backs.