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backscatter712

(26,355 posts)
Thu Jun 28, 2012, 11:24 AM Jun 2012

While I'm happy the ACA was upheld, I'm unhappy that it wasn't upheld with the Commerce Clause.

Why? Because there's lots of other legislation that use the commerce clause, most notable off the top of my head: the Civil Rights Act, which states that even if a restaurant doesn't directly affect interstate commerce because it's in the middle of nowhere and only locals eat there, because some of the foodstocks it orders from the distributors come from out of state, Congress can mandate they do not exclude black people.

Well, Roberts made it clear he wasn't going to uphold the ACA with the Commerce Clause, choosing instead to call the mandate a tax.

Which means the Civil Rights Act could be in danger. In fact, every act of Congress that used Wickard v. Filburn about everything from civil rights to child labor to workplace safety may get struck down or narrowed, based on how Roberts telegraphed how he would rule in the future...

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While I'm happy the ACA was upheld, I'm unhappy that it wasn't upheld with the Commerce Clause. (Original Post) backscatter712 Jun 2012 OP
Because that is the same reason social security and medicare are allowed, because they are taxes still_one Jun 2012 #1
It's not social security and Medicare I'm worried about. backscatter712 Jun 2012 #5
I believe those are different issues, though I can see it argued other ways /nt still_one Jun 2012 #9
I Do Not Like Weaseling At The Commerce Clause Either, Sir The Magistrate Jun 2012 #2
This is the best possible outcome Harmony Blue Jun 2012 #3
Not necessarily treestar Jun 2012 #4
+1 mac56 Jun 2012 #6
by sane Constitutional interpretation, yes. According the Roberts Court of Batshit, not so sure... n backscatter712 Jun 2012 #7
Sort of Agree Iggy Jun 2012 #8
Insurance companies want to cross state lines to avoid regulation mmonk Jun 2012 #13
And the second they do that Pab Sungenis Jun 2012 #29
Deeming that it is basically a tax is very problematic. Puzzledtraveller Jun 2012 #23
Yeah, but in my own mind the issues are different, since the restaurants already enter into commerce hlthe2b Jun 2012 #10
That is right. The insurance companies were limited to operating in states treestar Jun 2012 #15
Being defined as a tax michreject Jun 2012 #11
51 votes, where are you getting that? treestar Jun 2012 #16
Congress can annul any tax michreject Jun 2012 #21
Huh? treestar Jun 2012 #27
"Presidential signature not needed" - What? NYC Liberal Jun 2012 #28
On the contrary. Pab Sungenis Jun 2012 #30
The whole purpose of this court is to negate the commerce clause. mmonk Jun 2012 #12
They are so far from negating the Commerce Clause treestar Jun 2012 #17
They have the court. They can just rule on it. mmonk Jun 2012 #25
I agree Gothmog Jun 2012 #14
But the opinion explicitly accepts the "inactivity" rationale Shrek Jun 2012 #18
I didn't see your post before I posted this. NCTraveler Jun 2012 #19
Because he used precedent nadinbrzezinski Jun 2012 #20
Roberts WilliamPitt Jun 2012 #22
This in no way endangers the Civil Rights Act. Bake Jun 2012 #24
I am no lawyer, I have no idea, but Inuca Jun 2012 #26

backscatter712

(26,355 posts)
5. It's not social security and Medicare I'm worried about.
Thu Jun 28, 2012, 11:28 AM
Jun 2012

At least because of this ruling.

It's the Civil Rights Act. It's the prohibitions on child labor, regulation of workplace safety, environmental regulations - the SCOTUS could strike them all.

The Magistrate

(95,270 posts)
2. I Do Not Like Weaseling At The Commerce Clause Either, Sir
Thu Jun 28, 2012, 11:27 AM
Jun 2012

These people cannot be trusted further than they can be thrown.

 

Iggy

(1,418 posts)
8. Sort of Agree
Thu Jun 28, 2012, 11:31 AM
Jun 2012

the commerce smack down could be a problem.

not sure of the current laws, but it's clear to me we need more competition in the health insurance
industry-- thus is the ruling today going to stop people from crossing state lines to consider
insurance in other states?

mmonk

(52,589 posts)
13. Insurance companies want to cross state lines to avoid regulation
Thu Jun 28, 2012, 11:45 AM
Jun 2012

such as paying claims and such.

Puzzledtraveller

(5,937 posts)
23. Deeming that it is basically a tax is very problematic.
Thu Jun 28, 2012, 01:03 PM
Jun 2012

One would think that this would make it's removal a matter of procedure by congress, basically putting it to a vote and just saying "we are not going to implement this tax" end of discussion.

hlthe2b

(102,577 posts)
10. Yeah, but in my own mind the issues are different, since the restaurants already enter into commerce
Thu Jun 28, 2012, 11:33 AM
Jun 2012

with distributors that are likely doing business across state lines. So there is a business (commerce) relationship already. But, to require someone to enter into a commerce relationship, as would be the case with uninsured individuals is quite an extension from that. I can see where (legally) this (tax) might be a more appropriate justification for the mandate and I don't think (at least in my own mind) that the civil rights decision would be logically in question based on commerce clause.

But, I could never claim to be a constitutional lawyer...

treestar

(82,383 posts)
15. That is right. The insurance companies were limited to operating in states
Thu Jun 28, 2012, 12:21 PM
Jun 2012

and not across state lines, so the Commerce Clause would be tougher to apply (though the Commerce Clause now reaches to the ends of the earth, and even in state activities can affect commerce outside the state).

michreject

(4,378 posts)
11. Being defined as a tax
Thu Jun 28, 2012, 11:41 AM
Jun 2012

means it only takes 51 votes to rescind it, throwing it out the window.

Single payer is also out of the realm of possibilities now. This is law. Anything else would have to start from square one.

The law mandates everyone have health insurance. The ability to afford it or not is irrelevant as it's a tax.

I don't think that this is the win we think it is. Roberts is way too sneaky.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
16. 51 votes, where are you getting that?
Thu Jun 28, 2012, 12:22 PM
Jun 2012

Reconciliation?

A House majority and a willing POTUS are also required. As would be the case with any law.

michreject

(4,378 posts)
21. Congress can annul any tax
Thu Jun 28, 2012, 12:57 PM
Jun 2012

With a simple majority. Senate levies taxes and the House controls the purse strings.

Presidential signature not needed.

NYC Liberal

(20,139 posts)
28. "Presidential signature not needed" - What?
Thu Jun 28, 2012, 02:22 PM
Jun 2012

Any law requires the signature of the president.

The entire ACA could also be repealed by Congress in exactly the same way - with a simple majority. So could the Civil Rights Act or the Voting Rights Act, or any other law. But again, that would require both chambers and the president's signature.

Every Order, Resolution, or Vote to which the Concurrence of the Senate and House of Representatives may be necessary (except on a question of Adjournment) shall be presented to the President of the United States

U.S. Constitution, Article I Section 7
 

Pab Sungenis

(9,612 posts)
30. On the contrary.
Thu Jun 28, 2012, 02:31 PM
Jun 2012

Roberts upholding a tax for health care hands us the mechanism for single payer.

We open up Medicare Part E like Kucinich called for, paid for by a tax (i.e. premiums).

mmonk

(52,589 posts)
12. The whole purpose of this court is to negate the commerce clause.
Thu Jun 28, 2012, 11:43 AM
Jun 2012

That is the nature of corporate dictatorship.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
17. They are so far from negating the Commerce Clause
Thu Jun 28, 2012, 12:23 PM
Jun 2012

that goal would be nothing to worry about. Some wing nuts would overturn Marbury v. Madison, not going to happen. It's been 80 years or more since the wing nuts lost the Commerce Clause battle. It now extends far beyond what they would have wanted.

They could never negate it (Constituional Amendment to remove it? Not happening in this millennium).

mmonk

(52,589 posts)
25. They have the court. They can just rule on it.
Thu Jun 28, 2012, 02:06 PM
Jun 2012

Those of us who believe in self governmenet now have to consider a Constitutional amendment to negate Citizens United. The difficult challenge of changing a bad ruling lies with us.

Shrek

(3,986 posts)
18. But the opinion explicitly accepts the "inactivity" rationale
Thu Jun 28, 2012, 12:23 PM
Jun 2012

So I don't think existing commerce clause precedents will be affected.

The individual mandate, however, does not regulate existing commercial activity. It instead compels individuals to become active in commerce by purchasing a product,on the ground that their failure to do so affects interstate commerce. Construing the Commerce Clause to permit Congress to regulate individuals precisely because they are doing nothing would open a new and potentially vast domain to congressional authority. Every day individuals do not do an infinite number of things. In some cases they decide not to do something; in others they simply fail to do it. Allowing Congress to justify federal regulation by pointing to the effect of inaction on commerce would bring countless decisions an individual could potentially make within the scope of federal regulation, and—under the Government’s theory—empower Congress to make those decisions for him.

Bake

(21,977 posts)
24. This in no way endangers the Civil Rights Act.
Thu Jun 28, 2012, 01:26 PM
Jun 2012

The Court has upheld a variety of legislation, including the Civil Rights Act, on Commerce Clause grounds. This is a narrow decision which does not affect other legislation.

Bake, Esq.

Inuca

(8,945 posts)
26. I am no lawyer, I have no idea, but
Thu Jun 28, 2012, 02:10 PM
Jun 2012

have a look at this http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/post/broccoli-tyranny-lives/2012/06/28/gJQAwxRQ9V_blog.html

From teh linked article

Friedman suggests that this ratifies the power to tax to regulate inactivity. He acknowledged that the justices put a stop to the use of the commerce clause to do this but added: “I don’t see them as withdrawing power. The chief justice validated taxing to do exactly the same thing.”

Friedman added that the inability to regulate inactivity via the commerce clause isn’t any great loss — since it’s unclear how much of this we would have wanted to do in the future in any case. The more important point, he said, is that the decision upheld the right of the government to regulate via taxation.

“This is far more devastating to federalism and the balance of power between states and the national government,” he says. “You can now tax pretty much anything.”
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