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Green_Lantern

(2,423 posts)
Sat Jun 30, 2012, 02:42 PM Jun 2012

Obama never flip flopped on same sex marriage

That is just another GOP talking point.

In 2004 running for Senate:


WCT: Do you have a position on marriage vs. civil unions?

Obama: I am a fierce supporter of domestic-partnership and civil-union laws. I am not a supporter of gay marriage as it has been thrown about, primarily just as a strategic issue. I think that marriage, in the minds of a lot of voters, has a religious connotation. I know that's true in the African-American community, for example. And if you asked people, 'should gay and lesbian people have the same rights to transfer property, and visit hospitals, and et cetera,' they would say, 'absolutely.' And then if you talk about, 'should they get married?', then suddenly ...

WCT: There are more than 1,000 federal benefits that come with marriage. Looking back in the 1960s and inter-racial marriage, the polls showed people against that as well.

Obama: Since I'm a product of an interracial marriage, I'm very keenly aware of ...

WCT: But you think, strategically, gay marriage isn't going to happen so you won't support it at this time?

Obama: What I'm saying is that strategically, I think we can get civil unions passed. I think we can get SB 101 passed. I think that to the extent that we can get the rights, I'm less concerned about the name. And I think that is my No. 1 priority, is an environment in which the Republicans are going to use a particular language that has all sorts of connotations in the broader culture as a wedge issue, to prevent us moving forward, in securing those rights, then I don't want to play their game.



He didn't buy into how the issue was being framed at that time. The only thing that has changed is that applying the word marriage doesn't seem to produce much opposition now.
32 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Obama never flip flopped on same sex marriage (Original Post) Green_Lantern Jun 2012 OP
How do you interpret this video? ZombieHorde Jun 2012 #1
Much like the text.... Wounded Bear Jun 2012 #3
He was treading water until he could know whether there was enough of a constituency on the patrice Jun 2012 #29
he essentially said the same thing... Green_Lantern Jun 2012 #4
He did not support it politically. Then he did. DirkGently Jun 2012 #2
he didn't change policy positions Green_Lantern Jun 2012 #6
That is not true. His official policy position was non-support for gay marriage. DirkGently Jun 2012 #9
what part of same sex marriage did he oppose legally? Green_Lantern Jun 2012 #12
What do you mean "legally?" He stated his opposition to the concept. DirkGently Jun 2012 #14
by legally oppose it I meant... Green_Lantern Jun 2012 #18
I don't think you can make that the standard for "opposed." DirkGently Jun 2012 #20
no...he just refused to argue a position using words the way the right defined them... Green_Lantern Jun 2012 #23
"What I believe is that marriage is between a man and a woman." DirkGently Jun 2012 #26
that must have been before he became a Christian Enrique Jun 2012 #5
as a legal standard Green_Lantern Jun 2012 #10
no, he said he personally did not like gay marriage Enrique Jun 2012 #13
that isn't a policy change Green_Lantern Jun 2012 #15
He said he did. DirkGently Jun 2012 #16
I agree, he did the right thing in reversing himself Enrique Jun 2012 #19
I'd agree it's not a political weakness that he did the right thing. DirkGently Jun 2012 #22
he deserves great credit for promoting gay issues often stigmatized in communities he represented Green_Lantern Jun 2012 #21
Answer Herlong Jun 2012 #7
Not long ago I thought civil unions were good enough johnnie Jun 2012 #8
A lot people were in that boat, along with Obama DirkGently Jun 2012 #24
you can't just ignore social mores when passing laws though... Green_Lantern Jun 2012 #28
Don't agree. I don't think legal marriage and raising kids has to be promoted. DirkGently Jul 2012 #31
I'm not saying we should promote having more kids but stable environment for children people do have Green_Lantern Jul 2012 #32
Obama 1996,“I favor legalizing same-sex marriage, and would fight efforts to prohibit such marriage" Luminous Animal Jun 2012 #11
He publicly disavowed that statement; claimed someone else said it. DirkGently Jun 2012 #17
yep, and he also never pursued a bi-partisan approach with the republicans quinnox Jun 2012 #25
"... in securing those rights ..." It always has been and still is about CIVIL RIGHTS. patrice Jun 2012 #27
Someone who goes from saying "marriage is between a man and a woman... God is in the mix" Nye Bevan Jun 2012 #30

Wounded Bear

(58,797 posts)
3. Much like the text....
Sat Jun 30, 2012, 03:28 PM
Jun 2012

the video explains that he supports the extension of rights to gay couples, though not necessarily the word "marriage."

He was tap dancing a bit there, because he was in a fundie stronghold for that interview.

In the past, the RW has won the battle of semantics, and that sucks. The important thing to me is to grant that the rights that any hetero couple have should not be taken from GLBT couples.

patrice

(47,992 posts)
29. He was treading water until he could know whether there was enough of a constituency on the
Sat Jun 30, 2012, 04:50 PM
Jun 2012

issue that he in fact could help it happen. Failing that vital information about support on the issue, he didn't want to project un-realistic expectations that were not grounded in a significantly wide and deep enough base amongst Americans. Since then, he found out what he needed to know so he's going all of the way on the legal issues, which IS the most appropriate approach for government.

DirkGently

(12,151 posts)
2. He did not support it politically. Then he did.
Sat Jun 30, 2012, 03:12 PM
Jun 2012

Call it what you want, but he reversed himself. That can be seen as a good thing, but it's not helpful to anyone to try to rewrite history

DirkGently

(12,151 posts)
9. That is not true. His official policy position was non-support for gay marriage.
Sat Jun 30, 2012, 03:38 PM
Jun 2012

He did not say he supported gay marriage "but." He said he did not support it. That's not framing that's the policy itself.

DirkGently

(12,151 posts)
14. What do you mean "legally?" He stated his opposition to the concept.
Sat Jun 30, 2012, 03:56 PM
Jun 2012

If you're taking the position that a political leader who says he opposes something doesn't really oppose it if he doesn't actively try to destroy it in court, I don't think that's a definition anyone is going to accept. Mitt Romney once was okay with gay marriage and abortion. Now he SAYS he's not. As far as I know, he's never opposed either of those things "legally." Does that mean that Mitt Romney still supports abortion rights and gay marriage?

I'll give you that Obama has spoken in ways that suggest his opposition to gay marriage was more about political expedience than deeply held beliefs, but that requires a level of reading between the lines that doesn't count when we're talking about policy issues.

OCTOBER 2004: “What I believe is that marriage is between a man and a woman … What I believe, in my faith, is that a man and a woman, when they get married, are performing something before God, and it’s not simply the two persons who are meeting,” then-U.S. Senate candidate Obama said in an interview with WTTW Chicago public television.


OCTOBER 2010: “I have been to this point unwilling to sign on to same-sex marriage primarily because of my understandings of the traditional definitions of marriage,” President Obama said during an interview with liberal bloggers. “But I also think you’re right that attitudes evolve, including mine. And I think that it is an issue that I wrestle with and think about because I have a whole host of friends who are in gay partnerships.”



http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/05/timeline-of-obamas-evolving-on-same-sex-marriage/

But, see

FEBRUARY 1996: “I favor legalizing same-sex marriages, and would fight efforts to prohibit such marriages,” reads a typed, signed statement from then-Illinois state senate candidate Obama in response to a questionnaire by the Chicago LGBT newspaper “Outlines.” White House Communications Director Dan Pfeiffer later publicly disavowed the statement, claiming in June 2011 that the questionnaire was “actually filled out by someone else.”


DirkGently

(12,151 posts)
20. I don't think you can make that the standard for "opposed."
Sat Jun 30, 2012, 04:14 PM
Jun 2012

Politicians frequently make policy statements outside the concept of supporting specific legislation. And, as far as that goes, Obama said that marriage was between a man and a woman, and was not a civil right.

“I don’t think marriage is a civil right,” Obama said when asked whether there’s an inherent right to marry.


OCTOBER 2004: “What I believe is that marriage is between a man and a woman … What I believe, in my faith, is that a man and a woman, when they get married, are performing something before God,


http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/05/timeline-of-obamas-evolving-on-same-sex-marriage/

What he did do was say that he was struggling with it:

OCTOBER 2010: “I have been to this point unwilling to sign on to same-sex marriage primarily because of my understandings of the traditional definitions of marriage,” President Obama said during an interview with liberal bloggers. “But I also think you’re right that attitudes evolve, including mine. And I think that it is an issue that I wrestle with and think about because I have a whole host of friends who are in gay partnerships.”


But that's not the same as supporting gay marriage all along. What he signaled was that he was sympathetic to religious and traditionalist views, but wanted gay couples treated fairly ... somehow, without the right to marry.

That's not the same thing. Best you can say here is that he was never virulently anti-gay, and has supported civil unions consistently, while bowing to religious views stating that "marriage" was only for a man and a woman.

DirkGently

(12,151 posts)
26. "What I believe is that marriage is between a man and a woman."
Sat Jun 30, 2012, 04:31 PM
Jun 2012

Can't encapsulate the right's position much better than that, can you? He parroted their exact position, and the precise language of the anti-gay marriage laws they have proposed.

We can speculate that there was some inward intellectual dodge going on, but you can't give him political credit for being on the right side when expressly took the wrong side.

What I'm wondering is whether you think the right has some kind of great cudgel to beat Obama with on the basis of "flip-flopping."

Do you think changing positions on an issue like this (and from a bad position to a good one) undermines a leader's credibility?

I don't. I am a frequent critic of Obama, but I give him credit for shifting in the right direction here. I'd give him a lot less if he tried to pretend it had always been his position, ala Romney claiming to have been a staunch social conservative all along, when we all know he wasn't.

Enrique

(27,461 posts)
5. that must have been before he became a Christian
Sat Jun 30, 2012, 03:33 PM
Jun 2012

because he said his Christian faith cause him to believe marriage was defined as man-woman.

And actually the GOP propaganda on Obama ignored his anti-gay-marriage position. His agreement with them on that issue was very inconvenient for them, so they ignored it. Same on other issues as well, like free trade and school reform. "Shhh, don't let the rubes know that Obama agrees with us!"

DirkGently

(12,151 posts)
16. He said he did.
Sat Jun 30, 2012, 04:01 PM
Jun 2012
OCTOBER 2004: “What I believe is that marriage is between a man and a woman … What I believe, in my faith, is that a man and a woman, when they get married, are performing something before God, and it’s not simply the two persons who are meeting,” then-U.S. Senate candidate Obama said in an interview with WTTW Chicago public television.


http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/05/timeline-of-obamas-evolving-on-same-sex-marriage/

Look, he did the right thing reversing himself. And for what it's worth, I don't think he's personally anti-gay rights. But he was willing to support anti-equality positions publicly when it suited his purposes. He doesn't deserve the kind of credit people who have always supported full legal equality for gay people do.

Enrique

(27,461 posts)
19. I agree, he did the right thing in reversing himself
Sat Jun 30, 2012, 04:10 PM
Jun 2012

I don't see the point in talking about whether he flip-flopped, and I don't think many people are making an issue out of that.

Support for gay marriage is increasing dramatically in the country, millions of people have "flip-flopped". Who cares?

DirkGently

(12,151 posts)
22. I'd agree it's not a political weakness that he did the right thing.
Sat Jun 30, 2012, 04:16 PM
Jun 2012

I don't support hammering any political leader for openly changing their mind to favor better policy over worse. Obama deserves credit for what he actually did, which was to quit going along with drawing the line at "marriage" as he once did. He wasn't right before, but he improved. That's good.

But we don't do ourselves any good rewriting history and pretending Obama has been solidly behind gay marriage when he at first, for whatever reason, was not.

johnnie

(23,616 posts)
8. Not long ago I thought civil unions were good enough
Sat Jun 30, 2012, 03:35 PM
Jun 2012

As time went on and I finally got it, I realized that they should get the term marriage just the same as a straight couple. Some may say I flip flopped, but I would say I just became enlightened to what was really important.

DirkGently

(12,151 posts)
24. A lot people were in that boat, along with Obama
Sat Jun 30, 2012, 04:24 PM
Jun 2012

My personal position is that "marriage" is a horrible mess the way we currently treat it -- as some kind of unholy amalgam between religious traditions and legal rights.

My support for gay marriage ultimately comes from the fact "marriage" in the legal sense is such a complicated tangle of rights, benefits and responsibilities, that there's no way to guarantee equal rights if everyone can't participate.

But I'd much rather see government get out of the business of giving and withholding rights on the basis of a murky, quasi-contractual bonding ceremony. If there was no legal component, I'd be fine with leaving it to religion to call whatever it wants "marriage," provided other people can also use the word to mean whatever they want it to.

Rather than just offering gay people "civil unions," we should apply that notion to the whole scheme, and stop entangling people in an opaque legal mishmash altogether. Two people should be able to declare each other dependents or co-owners of property or guardians of children or whatever other legal relationship they want in any way they choose.

Green_Lantern

(2,423 posts)
28. you can't just ignore social mores when passing laws though...
Sat Jun 30, 2012, 04:44 PM
Jun 2012

Legal marriage and raising kids has to be promoted by society as more than just a simple property contract.

Just like economic activity has to consider the common good too.

DirkGently

(12,151 posts)
31. Don't agree. I don't think legal marriage and raising kids has to be promoted.
Sun Jul 1, 2012, 12:07 AM
Jul 2012

I don't see either of those as important societal goals. We have enough people, and couples are capable of deciding what kind of commitments they want to enter into without the input of religion or traditional notions of what a family should look like.

I think that's exactly the kind of logic we've had to overcome to make social progress.

Green_Lantern

(2,423 posts)
32. I'm not saying we should promote having more kids but stable environment for children people do have
Sun Jul 1, 2012, 05:27 PM
Jul 2012

I'm not saying to restrict marriage for same sex couples.

DirkGently

(12,151 posts)
17. He publicly disavowed that statement; claimed someone else said it.
Sat Jun 30, 2012, 04:02 PM
Jun 2012
FEBRUARY 1996: “I favor legalizing same-sex marriages, and would fight efforts to prohibit such marriages,” reads a typed, signed statement from then-Illinois state senate candidate Obama in response to a questionnaire by the Chicago LGBT newspaper “Outlines.” White House Communications Director Dan Pfeiffer later publicly disavowed the statement, claiming in June 2011 that the questionnaire was “actually filled out by someone else.”


http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/05/timeline-of-obamas-evolving-on-same-sex-marriage/
 

quinnox

(20,600 posts)
25. yep, and he also never pursued a bi-partisan approach with the republicans
Sat Jun 30, 2012, 04:27 PM
Jun 2012

for years after becoming president, and his administration got the response to the BP oil spill perfectly, never low-balling the real damage being done to the environment, and he vigorously campaigned for the public option in the health care reform, and never backed down to calls by the GOP to drop it, etc.

I understand the desire to myth make for people you admire, but it does seem a bit silly.

patrice

(47,992 posts)
27. "... in securing those rights ..." It always has been and still is about CIVIL RIGHTS.
Sat Jun 30, 2012, 04:44 PM
Jun 2012

What has changed is his perception of what constituency there is out here to accomplish the protection of LGBT Civil Rights. He has moved from lower expectations about what was possible to higher expectations about what IS possible.

And because this is about government, I don't want him or anyone else with civil power to be addressing this as anything other than a LEGAL matter, i.e. Civil Rights for ALL Americans.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
30. Someone who goes from saying "marriage is between a man and a woman... God is in the mix"
Sat Jun 30, 2012, 06:44 PM
Jun 2012

to favoring marriage equality, has most certainly "flipped".

The good thing is, he flipped in the right direction. Rather than being snarky, I'm happy to welcome him aboard on this issue.

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