General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsObama never flip flopped on same sex marriage
That is just another GOP talking point.
In 2004 running for Senate:
Obama: I am a fierce supporter of domestic-partnership and civil-union laws. I am not a supporter of gay marriage as it has been thrown about, primarily just as a strategic issue. I think that marriage, in the minds of a lot of voters, has a religious connotation. I know that's true in the African-American community, for example. And if you asked people, 'should gay and lesbian people have the same rights to transfer property, and visit hospitals, and et cetera,' they would say, 'absolutely.' And then if you talk about, 'should they get married?', then suddenly ...
WCT: There are more than 1,000 federal benefits that come with marriage. Looking back in the 1960s and inter-racial marriage, the polls showed people against that as well.
Obama: Since I'm a product of an interracial marriage, I'm very keenly aware of ...
WCT: But you think, strategically, gay marriage isn't going to happen so you won't support it at this time?
Obama: What I'm saying is that strategically, I think we can get civil unions passed. I think we can get SB 101 passed. I think that to the extent that we can get the rights, I'm less concerned about the name. And I think that is my No. 1 priority, is an environment in which the Republicans are going to use a particular language that has all sorts of connotations in the broader culture as a wedge issue, to prevent us moving forward, in securing those rights, then I don't want to play their game.
He didn't buy into how the issue was being framed at that time. The only thing that has changed is that applying the word marriage doesn't seem to produce much opposition now.
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)Wounded Bear
(58,797 posts)the video explains that he supports the extension of rights to gay couples, though not necessarily the word "marriage."
He was tap dancing a bit there, because he was in a fundie stronghold for that interview.
In the past, the RW has won the battle of semantics, and that sucks. The important thing to me is to grant that the rights that any hetero couple have should not be taken from GLBT couples.
patrice
(47,992 posts)issue that he in fact could help it happen. Failing that vital information about support on the issue, he didn't want to project un-realistic expectations that were not grounded in a significantly wide and deep enough base amongst Americans. Since then, he found out what he needed to know so he's going all of the way on the legal issues, which IS the most appropriate approach for government.
Green_Lantern
(2,423 posts)He wasn't defining marriage by a legal standard.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)Call it what you want, but he reversed himself. That can be seen as a good thing, but it's not helpful to anyone to try to rewrite history
Green_Lantern
(2,423 posts)He changed how he framed the issue.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)He did not say he supported gay marriage "but." He said he did not support it. That's not framing that's the policy itself.
Green_Lantern
(2,423 posts)Nothing.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)If you're taking the position that a political leader who says he opposes something doesn't really oppose it if he doesn't actively try to destroy it in court, I don't think that's a definition anyone is going to accept. Mitt Romney once was okay with gay marriage and abortion. Now he SAYS he's not. As far as I know, he's never opposed either of those things "legally." Does that mean that Mitt Romney still supports abortion rights and gay marriage?
I'll give you that Obama has spoken in ways that suggest his opposition to gay marriage was more about political expedience than deeply held beliefs, but that requires a level of reading between the lines that doesn't count when we're talking about policy issues.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/05/timeline-of-obamas-evolving-on-same-sex-marriage/
But, see
Green_Lantern
(2,423 posts)Support passing a law to define marriage as man-woman.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)Politicians frequently make policy statements outside the concept of supporting specific legislation. And, as far as that goes, Obama said that marriage was between a man and a woman, and was not a civil right.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/05/timeline-of-obamas-evolving-on-same-sex-marriage/
What he did do was say that he was struggling with it:
But that's not the same as supporting gay marriage all along. What he signaled was that he was sympathetic to religious and traditionalist views, but wanted gay couples treated fairly ... somehow, without the right to marry.
That's not the same thing. Best you can say here is that he was never virulently anti-gay, and has supported civil unions consistently, while bowing to religious views stating that "marriage" was only for a man and a woman.
Green_Lantern
(2,423 posts)DirkGently
(12,151 posts)Can't encapsulate the right's position much better than that, can you? He parroted their exact position, and the precise language of the anti-gay marriage laws they have proposed.
We can speculate that there was some inward intellectual dodge going on, but you can't give him political credit for being on the right side when expressly took the wrong side.
What I'm wondering is whether you think the right has some kind of great cudgel to beat Obama with on the basis of "flip-flopping."
Do you think changing positions on an issue like this (and from a bad position to a good one) undermines a leader's credibility?
I don't. I am a frequent critic of Obama, but I give him credit for shifting in the right direction here. I'd give him a lot less if he tried to pretend it had always been his position, ala Romney claiming to have been a staunch social conservative all along, when we all know he wasn't.
Enrique
(27,461 posts)because he said his Christian faith cause him to believe marriage was defined as man-woman.
And actually the GOP propaganda on Obama ignored his anti-gay-marriage position. His agreement with them on that issue was very inconvenient for them, so they ignored it. Same on other issues as well, like free trade and school reform. "Shhh, don't let the rubes know that Obama agrees with us!"
Green_Lantern
(2,423 posts)He didn't want marriage defined as man-woman.
Enrique
(27,461 posts)now he is ok with it.
Green_Lantern
(2,423 posts)DirkGently
(12,151 posts)http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/05/timeline-of-obamas-evolving-on-same-sex-marriage/
Look, he did the right thing reversing himself. And for what it's worth, I don't think he's personally anti-gay rights. But he was willing to support anti-equality positions publicly when it suited his purposes. He doesn't deserve the kind of credit people who have always supported full legal equality for gay people do.
Enrique
(27,461 posts)I don't see the point in talking about whether he flip-flopped, and I don't think many people are making an issue out of that.
Support for gay marriage is increasing dramatically in the country, millions of people have "flip-flopped". Who cares?
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)I don't support hammering any political leader for openly changing their mind to favor better policy over worse. Obama deserves credit for what he actually did, which was to quit going along with drawing the line at "marriage" as he once did. He wasn't right before, but he improved. That's good.
But we don't do ourselves any good rewriting history and pretending Obama has been solidly behind gay marriage when he at first, for whatever reason, was not.
Green_Lantern
(2,423 posts)Herlong
(649 posts)He's running against Mitt Romney.
johnnie
(23,616 posts)As time went on and I finally got it, I realized that they should get the term marriage just the same as a straight couple. Some may say I flip flopped, but I would say I just became enlightened to what was really important.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)My personal position is that "marriage" is a horrible mess the way we currently treat it -- as some kind of unholy amalgam between religious traditions and legal rights.
My support for gay marriage ultimately comes from the fact "marriage" in the legal sense is such a complicated tangle of rights, benefits and responsibilities, that there's no way to guarantee equal rights if everyone can't participate.
But I'd much rather see government get out of the business of giving and withholding rights on the basis of a murky, quasi-contractual bonding ceremony. If there was no legal component, I'd be fine with leaving it to religion to call whatever it wants "marriage," provided other people can also use the word to mean whatever they want it to.
Rather than just offering gay people "civil unions," we should apply that notion to the whole scheme, and stop entangling people in an opaque legal mishmash altogether. Two people should be able to declare each other dependents or co-owners of property or guardians of children or whatever other legal relationship they want in any way they choose.
Green_Lantern
(2,423 posts)Legal marriage and raising kids has to be promoted by society as more than just a simple property contract.
Just like economic activity has to consider the common good too.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)I don't see either of those as important societal goals. We have enough people, and couples are capable of deciding what kind of commitments they want to enter into without the input of religion or traditional notions of what a family should look like.
I think that's exactly the kind of logic we've had to overcome to make social progress.
Green_Lantern
(2,423 posts)I'm not saying to restrict marriage for same sex couples.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)DirkGently
(12,151 posts)http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/05/timeline-of-obamas-evolving-on-same-sex-marriage/
quinnox
(20,600 posts)for years after becoming president, and his administration got the response to the BP oil spill perfectly, never low-balling the real damage being done to the environment, and he vigorously campaigned for the public option in the health care reform, and never backed down to calls by the GOP to drop it, etc.
I understand the desire to myth make for people you admire, but it does seem a bit silly.
patrice
(47,992 posts)What has changed is his perception of what constituency there is out here to accomplish the protection of LGBT Civil Rights. He has moved from lower expectations about what was possible to higher expectations about what IS possible.
And because this is about government, I don't want him or anyone else with civil power to be addressing this as anything other than a LEGAL matter, i.e. Civil Rights for ALL Americans.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)to favoring marriage equality, has most certainly "flipped".
The good thing is, he flipped in the right direction. Rather than being snarky, I'm happy to welcome him aboard on this issue.