voting for the Democratic Candidate, you are violating the TOS of Democratic Underground.

So if that is what you are looking for, then yeah, you don't freaking belong here.

I am pointing out what a poor strategy it is to treat people in this way who have a slightly different view of what the Democratic Party should be.

I think our party already has been hijacked... by "centrists" who have marginalized true progressives who are merely lookin to take BACK their party, not "hijack" it.

the money!

Whenever things don't make political sense or otherwise seem a bit fishy, simply follow the money trail... and voilà!!!

Blatant "We deserve more" wearing the flag and still declaring victory over the native americans with the cross,
obstructive for 8 years solidly without putting forth a single viable alternative, now ahem "trusted" to do so,
veritibly wanting to bring back coal smoke belching trains
Or
Distributive, innovative, green and more true to that than the Greens under Stein (WTF, Jill?)
Demonstrated 8 years of most altruistic attempts to reach across the isle against obstruction,
and at least tacit awareness, growing, of responsibility to the planet.
Hmm, Let me watch 4,267 hours of Fox Noise and then:
Nope, I'll still vote Democratic.
But let me watch that amount of Fox Noise at 76 years old developing Alzheimer's.
(The latter being very statistically likely for me, the former... I'd puke daily)
But for argument's sake, isolated without a younger mind there to point out, eh, that's a little skewed, Grandpa...
And I might have been convinced to go out and vote for Frump. I'm scaring myself.
Because I watched that exact thing happen to my father, who died one bitter old pill.
Hope I have the faculties to say, Oh. Okay, nurse.

Americans of both Party's are tired of the Donor class calling the shots. OWS woke up a significant number of Americans who are pissed that Wall Street was bailed out instead of thrown in jail.

That same populist sentiment is still there and if we do not embrace a great deal of it we will squander the opportunity we have coming up. We will make great gains in 2018 no matter what, and probably 2020, but to a lesser extent than we could if we don't push things like single payer.

Americans want to see politics where the Donor Class become irrelevant, not that this will happen, but some policies benefitting regular Americans better be forthcoming. It will not be enough long term to be opposed to Republicans with no ideas of our own, we shouldn't make the same mistake the Republicans have. They have nothing in terms of policy except to tear down everything Obama did and give money to rich people.

and most State Governments. If they upset the balance of the Supreme Court, we're seriously fucked. The question is: what the fuck are we gonna do about it? Obviously, we need a serious course correction... NOT not more of the same old, same old. The next question is: who should lead our party out of this political wasteland and back into power?

talking about how "progressive" they are and no one else is, and want together back to some halcyon post World War II past as pictured in those ideal family tv shows.

Where's the "Revolution" in "Our Revolution?"

Can you give us a vision of the economic and social system you want to establish.

I keep hearing how bad the Democratic Party and how bad Democratic candidates are.

I think we need to meet the future and shape the way we meet it.

In the 1960s people who thought they were the "progressives" of that time dreamed up and promoted something called "lifeboat economics" (population growth and limited resources supposedly meant that we were on a lifeboat and would have to kick some people off to drown-this wasn't a Republican concept-it was thinking from the so-called left of the spectrum).

Maybe if you articulates a vision of the future, and paths to get there, you could start a meaningful and useful discussion, and those whom you thought "hijacked" the party would listen.

That doesn't make me a so-called "Sanders progressive," as you suggest, but rather, a TRUE progressive. Bernie just has our back... and he's not a "finger in the wind" Johnny- or Janey-come-lately to the political revolution we all want to see take place.

Last edited Tue Jul 4, 2017, 02:06 PM - Edit history (1)

Wow, for someone who basically just walked in the door, you sure seem to feel comfortable deciding who gets tossed out of the house. Just stroll in, grab something from the fridge, put your feet on the furniture, and switch the channel why dont ya ?

Its odd, how comfortable that is for you... most people who have the chutzpah to say who they think does and doesn't belong have spent a little time here...

I read and agreed to the Terms of Service. It states pretty clearly that the site is for promoting Democrats and not advocating for the Green party.

Last edited Tue Jul 4, 2017, 02:05 PM - Edit history (1)

And have seen this site go through all of its many changes, accept many people, lose many others, voice many ideas, and most importantly be an incubator for change within and without the Democratic Party over the course of the last four presidential elections. We've seen a lot of fights, and a lot of agitators. We've watched posters come, posters go, and posters come back again (and again and again.)

For you to walk in and presume to tell us who's voice we should allow to be heard is distasteful and wrong. For you to wave around the TOS as if the rest of us were unaware they existed is BS. You stomped on in as the first reply to a thread that effectively says "We should listen to other lefties, even when we disagree" and replied with "you dont freaking belong here."

Play semantics if you want but your language and intent was clear, and familiar.

Last edited Tue Jul 4, 2017, 08:32 PM - Edit history (1)

they have been posting for one day or they have been here from day one.

This is DEMOCRATIC Underground, created to support DEMOCRATS.

what s/he is saying, and anyone, even someone who is "a day old" can read it.

The OP was clearly stated as well, and did not in any way advocate for voting Green or supporting their party. This familiar user was shit stirring.

us "more left".

The only left party, and I'm assuming by left you mean liberal, is the Democratic Party.

for starters.

they are trolling to help republicans. that's why they only get involved in close races and focus their attacks on democrats.

they want republicans to win.

but their platform is very liberal.

they will do it claiming to be from the left. but they really have no interest in any liberal policies getting done.

They just felt that the Democratic party wasn't liberal enough.

to pass liberal policies because they want republicans to win.

just look at the disgusting troll jill stein that was the green party presidential candidate

As Democrats we need to make a strong case for liberal policies, not cower in fear.

claim to want to move left.

i don't buy the bs from greens and others who continously attack democrats that they want more liberal policies. i find them mostly hostile to many liberal policies . i find them to be too similar to right wingers in who they hate also.

and talking about her incredible leadership skills. She ruled with an iron hand.

Then compare her to Ryan or Boehner.....they had no power whatsoever. They were "Listeners of the House", not Speakers.

We must have met different Greens.

policies.

Nancy Pelosi. He is described as a Bernie Sanders supporter.

Nancy is still light years ahead of Republicans in terms of leadership.

GOP, and this is why I will never support any of those groups, any member of those groups and any candidates they run. That is not Democracy. It is stupidity.

And actually Nancy Pelosi is more liberal than any of 'Our Revolution types and smarter too. I want nothing to do with groups or individuals who engage in blackmail of the Democratic Party or who criticize it publicly.

rather than showing leadership. They had better wake up soon.

Only folks who agree with you are strong leaders? I just don't think so. I think Democratic leaders have done very well dealing with Trump and fighting back. And the groups you describe are not Democrats and undermine our efforts to fight Trump as they undermine everything in the Democratic Party...it isn't about ideas but about a power play, and we just don't need that right now or maybe ever. And I find the groups like "our revolution" and the like to be spoilers not winners of anything.

The party has, for the past few decades, poll tested ideas instead of pushing the envelope.

Fighting Trump is not an idea.

wins? No thanks.

Stein preferred Trump to Clinton.

Any idiot who bought into the Green message, or Stein's message is not a liberal, nor a liberal ally. And they aided and abetted trump. Fuck them.

there are many other voters who don't vote or who have tougher time voting because of republicans who target them and make it more difficult to do so.

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Honestly all the Greens I know are never Hillary AND never Dems. They don't even like Warren or Franken- refuse to say they're good Dems out there.
They might someday fall in love with one particular candidate, but they're not worth catering to.

a progressive message.

get out of our party, we don't like your ideas......but you damn well better vote for our candidate, or you are the Devil.

And yes, if a person doesn't vote for the Democrat in a general election when the only other viable alternative is a Republican, than that person is a devil and a GOP enabler. I also maintain such people are not liberal or progressive. Voting Green is the same as voting Republican...a vote for any third party candidate is a vote for the Republican...how about join the party...make your opinions know...do some heavy lifting...change happens from the bottom up...you will be welcomed as members but not dictators.

They are fakes and exist only to spoil elections for the Democrats. They are our enemy as much or more than the GOP ...their so called platform is their camouflage. Screw them.

I think that this is something that some Democrats chant to themselves.

they do repugs.

And it seems only every four years.

What do they do all those other years when they're not trotting out Jill Stein types to say Dems and repugs are the same?

for destroying this country by asking for votes.

nationally?

That is not a new party.

which is why Bernie ran as a Democrat.

party apparatus to fund-raise, volunteer, canvass for local candidates and expand it patiently over years to successfully run state-wide and national candidates?

The work has to be done to avoid the so-called crushing of 3rd party candidates.

I remember Ross Perot in the 90s. He did pretty well from out of nowhere.

The Greens have been around a long time. What's up?

are not reasons why the Greens only seem to appear every four years.

presidential cycles, which of course your answers carefully avoided.

the MSM supports the status quo.

Trump supported pipelines and is wrecking the environment...so yeah I can say...and those Democrats chanting Greens elected Republicans who hate the environment are correct. Greens are almost as evil as the GOP...they basically are paid off to help the GOP win. They need to call themselves the 'yellow' party as they are piss poor allies of any environmentalist or progressive.

We're going to get in trouble, though, for being critical of the establishment.

what is a minority group, and no it will never happen. Your demands of purity would cost us many elections...the GOP might even get a super majority.

so why would it magically start working now?

They have no message but fear of the other, and we know the other means POCs. They have no policies other than cutting programs that help people.

Dems are the progressive party with policies that help people.

We just have to strongly combat repug cheating and vote suppression, and nowadays their Russian help.

And we also have to stop falling for divisive dogma that we don't win because we are not far enough left.

That smacks of political naivete.

We don't win because of the very effective repug cheating apparatus.

That we have to expose and take apart. 2016 is the latest example of this. Who can deny that that was an election stolen by repug cheating?

Democrats have done nothing to combat it and they say very little about it.

from reading your posts we need to welcome into the fold(?) cost us 2000; we heard about it. Independent spoilers help the GOP steal elections...Fuck the Greens.

It's the VOTERS fault....they didn't vote for us.

We need to combat repug/Russian cheating. That's why we lost. We had/have more voters

Hillary was +3M voters.

We need a permanent, standing and well-funded committee of the DNC that employs the best private investigators, attorneys, fundraisers, publicists, media liaisons, social media experts and volunteers to combat Interstate Crosscheck and all the other repug vote suppression tactics that we know work hard to minimize our votes.

We need as concerted an effort to stop their cheating as we put into recruiting voters because the repugs work just as hard to stop our voters as we do to get our voters to the polls.

That seems to be left out of all the threads on what to do.

Hell, we never even hear this from Perez or Ellison who should be spearheading it.

Think about it, if we stop their vote-shaving by just 25%, we will win many more elections.

We know the repugs cheat yet we don't prioritize combating it and letting the public know about their cheating.

I also think that Democrats (or Superpacs) should run ads attacking Republicans for their vote suppression tactics.

And we barely lost...as for those who attack the Democratic Party, screw them. They have no interest in winning ...only purity. They are not Democrats either.

From my perspective, your steadfast admonitions as to who is and isnt allowed a voice in the party sure smells like a demand for "purity."

but can't dictate.

It takes hard work.

Koch Bros and their ilk poured billions of dollars in sewage on them. Crazed Republicans came out in droves during midterms while Democrats sat on their asses.

I am a left liberal/prog

The problem is not pushing the party left or bringing in more left voters. That's a great thing.

It is the >>false narratives<< that some loud self-described persist in pushing.

Best example: Trump won because of 'economic anxiety.'

The fact is Exit polls and further reasearch showed that people most concern about jobs and the economy voted Democratic.

Those most concerned about terrorism and immigration voted for Trump

revolution do nothing worthwhile. They help the GOP.

Planned Parenthood, for example?

And I have no interest in dictatorial groups like 'Our Revolution' whom I invited to go pound sand.

And of course no one has the right to hijack the Democratic party. Working within the party is fine. We have always been a big tent, with many disagreements and quarrels. We work them out.

Start their own organization? Are you talking about Our Revolution, or something else? And who are you saying does not welcome Democrats into their sessions, Our Revolution? Are they doing that? Is that what you are saying? If they are not inviting Democrats, how is Our Revolution not a separate party? Are they something other than Democrats? If they are Democrats, why are they excluding their fellow Democrats?

Can you say straight out what you are talking about? And what is all this about accepting centrist candidates? Who decides what defines a centrist candidate? We often compromise on who becomes a candidate. I have been disappointed more than a few times over who won a primary and became a candidate. I know it is better to have a candidate I do not fully agree with than to have a republican win the election. Look at the mess we have now.

I am sick of purity tests. I am tired of the perfect being the enemy of the good. But, again, WTF are you saying?

Number one problem: some people are just politically naive.

Central committee meetings have become nearly unbearable. Some of the politically naive have tried to bring business to a standstill. They don't understand how things work, and they don't care to learn. There is nothing revolutionary about being an asshole.

I am not against grassroots organizations that work with the Democratic Party. Indivisible is a good example. In my state, many of the local Indivisible groups are working with established organizations, like Illinois Democratic Women, to have candidate training. They are co-sponsoring events like town halls in other places. They are raising money for billboards and signs to publicize how terrible the republican votes and policies have been. They are learning from the League of Women Voters, and sometimes joining them. They are having candidate forums.

People can work together. The politically naive can be educated, if they choose. I am sorry to see how many, IRL and here, do not choose that.

single payer in 2009...they punished President Obama for something that was not possible in 2010 by giving the house to the GOP which meant, we never got any progressive legislation during the eight years of Pres Obama and were forced to play defense, and I remember reading just horrible posts even here about President Obama who I believe was a great president. Naive indeed.

gerrymandering.

Naive is want to primary people like Joe Manchin or even Nancy Pelosi or following idiots like Nina Turner.

They abandoned Pres. Obama because he could not get single payer in 10 and allowed the GOP to take multiple states which allowed a gerrymander...and cost us the House over and over. We take more votes in house elections almost all the time, but the gerrymander holds. We made gains in the Senate....oh and what happened to the perfect candidate in Wisconsin...Sen. Feingold whom I like very much. Why didn't he win.

he supported Sen. Sanders in the primary, he supported Sec. Clinton in the election...they refused him because he voted for the Democratic nominee... this makes them something alright, but not a Democratic organization. I am now sending money to candidates they don't endorse. No Democrat should send them or their candidates a dime. They are dead to me and can fuck themselves in company of course with the most famous spoiler party of them all...the Greens.

They would drive people from the party, and we would be fortunate to win dog catcher elections should we listen to them. Our Revolution gave it all way by refusing a person who voted for Sen. Clinton in the election...voting for the Democratic nominee was wrong in their eyes...yet they demand their own way in all things; they primary sitting Democrats as well. Sorry, I want nothing to do with them. I am sorry I ever voted for Nina Turner.

Consider the primarying of Joe Manchin in WVA...does anyone with a strong grasp of reality believe we can elect a liberal Democrat in WVA? And if Manchin loses because of this primary, the GOP has another seat. In order to save this country, we need the Senate. In order to get the Senate, we need a big tent party...everyone gets something...no one gets it all. And primarying a sitting Democratic senator in a red state is just plain stupid...beyond even naivete.

I am saying that progressives who disagree with the current direction of the Democratic Party are condemned no matter what they do.

They are condemned if they want to create change withing the Party, and they are condemned if they work outside the Party.

You are tired of the perfect being the enemy of the good?
I'm tired of the imperfect being the enemy of winning elections.

I'm tired watching Democrats lose, who then tell me..."Yeah, but we would lose even more if we did it your way".

to threaten and blackmail the Democratic Party. If those who disagree with the party would work to incorporate their ideas...and they won't get everything...it is a big tent, but they will get some things...They would be welcomed with open arms and hearts.

every person that supported Bernie was condemned and Bernie supporters were accused of being white supremacists.

The Party limited the number of debates, and worked behind the scenes to defeat Bernie. The DNC head who took over after DWS denied supplying debate questions to Hillary in October 2016, admitted doing it in April 2017.

This isn't big tent behavior, this is top-down control of the party.

demanding they get their way, or they take their ball and go home...blackmail. Many did take their ball and go home ...thus helping to elect Trump...none tried to work within the system. Now I say 'help' because we also had Comey, the Russians and the decades long demonetization of Hillary Clinton from the right... a perfect storm which is unlikely to be repeated. So while Jill Stein can congratulate herself on her 'effectiveness', and she certainly helped elect Trump, I doubt it will happen again. Many folks are seeing the results of what happened by abandoning the only party who can stop the GOP and won't be willing patsy's next time.

the Democratic Party needs to stop imagining that they are the victim party.

because of health care, the environment and all the other shitty Trump policies they helped enact by contributing to a Trump victory.

We support Democrats.

I don't think that Bernie supporters are white supremacists, and I don't believe I've ever seen them be accused of such.

What I did see was criticism of their dismissal of civil right issues.

As for the rest, we had a primary election. People voted.

Also, Bernie's top aides, Tad Devine and Symone Sanders dismissed that criticism of Donna Brazile.

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/303868-sanders-aide-defends-donna-brazile-after-leaked-emails

They can and I hope they do share ideas. However, we all have input. We need a big tent to get elected. And I would just like to say that those who would consider voting Green (fuck the greens) or starting their own party...which would enable the GOP are not Democrats but spoilers. When an organization like 'our revolution' refuses a person because they voted for the Democratic nominee, they are dead to me. I want nothing to do with them and will never support them or any of their candidates. I will purposefully vote against any candidate that they endorse. I am tired of the blackmail coming from these faux progressive groups...do what we say or we spike the elections, It is called blackmail and I find it distasteful to say the least. I would rather lose than cave to such groups who are not and should never consider themselves the base of this party because they are no such thing.We would lose anyway and I don't like blackmail. If we adopted everything they insist we must in order to gain their 'support'...chances are we would lose another bigger constituency and so it goes. Be part of the party,share your ideas, but don't ever think you can dictate or blackmail us into doing as you demand. we would lose anyway. Oh and this is obligatory. Fuck the Greens.

need a better term ...doesn't get their way, they will take their ball and go home, thus we either give them what they want or they throw the election...blackmail. Now, I don't think in a normal election ...it would work (16 wasn't normal). But if we want to take the House and Senate, we need to work together...and I won't even acknowledge those who engage in blackmail.

The center-right Democratic establishment wants it their way or so he highway. However, quite frankly, fuck that shit. Ignore the noise. Organize. At the local level every party organization is run by the people who show up.

so It would seem to me they are engaged in 'my way or the highway' behavior...or perhaps a better term is blackmail. Oh and fuck the Greens. (it is obligatory).

Those numbers could grow though if a purge mentality keeps gathering steam. The more that some push to define as disloyal troublemakers those who feel that the Democratic Party had been too silent for decades in the face of trends like media deregulation, banking deregulation, welfare deregulation, outsourcing, corporate written international trade deals, school privatization, prison privatization, infrastructure privatization, massive top friendly tax cuts, and a rampant culture of greed that saw average CEO pay grow by many multiples while typical worker take home pay actually shrunk, the less room there is inside the Democratic party tent for unity and common ground. I'm not leaving, but most people have a tendency to look for places where their views are more than barely tolerated in good times, and literally scapegoated in bad times.

They are not Democrats and I for one will never give into what I view as their blackmail demands (we would lose anyway as they have no concept of reality)...and if they had a progressive bone in their sorry bodies, they would not help Republicans or threaten to do so.

Were winning victory after victory at the state and federal level you might have a point about which faction has a better grasp of political reality. Instead they have run the party into the ground. We've lost control of all three branches of the federal government and enough states that a state initiated constitutional convention run by the Republican Party is a real possibility. It's been an unmitigated disaster. Time for new blood and fresh ideas.

I'll match Democratic credentials with you any time you want if that would be in any way helpful. It is best, I feel, to leave discussions of straw men behind.

"I want nothing to do with them and will never support them or any of their candidates."

"I will purposefully vote against any candidate that they endorse."

"I would rather lose than cave to such groups...."

"We would lose anyway and I don't like blackmail."

These are all things said a lot around here about a year ago.

You realize you sound JUST like the people you rail against, right ? You make the exact same arguments as those who "took their ball and went home" in the last election. You rail against "purity" but speak only in absolutes. If you feel that way now, and they felt that way then, what type of "unity" do you think is going to come about to bring us a win in '18?

I hear myself. They criticize the Democrats constantly. Nina Turner is the head and she has said she will support non-Democrats and
says terrible things about Democrats so screw them...so yeah. I want nothing to do with this organization...I stopped my donations...they don't need money from a Democrat who gasp voted for Hillary proudly. This is not a Democratic organization. They primary sitting Democrats in the age of Trump...and they will get nothing from me...no votes and no money.