generally well regarded, clearing house for pluralist, liberal ideas. What better place to screw with the conversations?

They're getting a head start on sowing descension among progressive in the run up the 2018 & 2020 elections!

I honestly don't know any physical, breathing Democrats who give a fuck. Not a single one.

This election has made me question everything that "people" are talking about on social media. Everything.

Not to mention Bernie-or-Busters in 2016.

But we know, for a fact, that the GOP and the FSB have been trying to "play" Democrats on the Internet since at LEAST Dubya's second term. They're on record.

There are genuine hurt feelings from 2016. Literally ALL the liberals lost, whether they were for Clinton (like 90% of Bernie's fans; the other 10% are either selfish assholes or were never going to vote leftish anyway, or maybe crazy) or originally for Bernie. Of COURSE people have hurt feelings. If you're feelings weren't hurt, you probably didn't care to begin with.

Trump is president. The only way we can mitigate that is with election 2018. The GOP and Putin don't want that and are willing to pay any price -- money, human souls, whatever -- to make that happen.

especially since Trump looks like a disaster for the GOP.

We know the GOP has been using astroturfing online for decades -- paying people to write letters to the editor for McCain, for example.

And cannot be discussed here...

Hillary can't be discussed here at all, but we have places to go to discuss her accomplishments as well as what she and Obama are doing now.

I assume that all the re-fighters of the 2016 primaries (on either side) are Russian bots and ignore them accordingly.

Why can't a book based on the GE loss be discussed? Her book isn't about her primary clobbering of bernie.

the media and the GOP. Stop using the terms "in-fighting" "fighting" "attacks" etc. And stop trying to cut off good, honest, debate and discussion no matter how much you disagree with it.

have the most to be sorry about

Some.people can't focus on going forward and need to sow discord.and discontent.

Yet I look around and I see a Sanders group "Our Revolution" primarying sitting Democrats and offering to support Republicans...also Move on is primarying Tim Ryan...there are others. These are the same folks that gave us Trump in the general...and they are at it again. I don't want to lose in 18 and 20. And if this continues we will...should we not talk about it...just let these folks denigrate the Democratic Party and discourage Democratic voters because that is what will happen. We will lose Democratic seats and that simply can't happen in the age of Trump without more suffering to innocent people.

We don't want discord and discontent and we try our best to counter the negativity.

Our good faith is twisted and used against us.

Democrats and primarying them? How do you move forward when Sen. Sanders disparages the Democratic Party as recently as August? We are moving forward with the usual suspects gearing up to cause us to lose 18 which would be catastrophic for our Party and our country...we have a chance here. I consider I am moving forward and those who engage in primarying or criticizing Democrats are the ones stuck in the 16 mentality. The house is on fire and this sort argues about where the couch should go.

I don't know. Those are great questions.

The best I can gather is this: we out number them. Most people aren't radicals, yet. There is something in the nature of radicals that makes them want to pick fights with us. So are we better off taking their bait and countering them? Or is there a better way, such as ignoring them?

I don't have the answer Demsrule86. Engaging them doesn't seem to be all that effective or satisfying. Does it?

But if you demand that others do the same, they are free to ignore you. It also seems to me that you aren't doing a very good job of ignoring discord and moving forward if you're choosing to throw yourself into the ring. Why not just walk the talk? Set a good example for everyone else? Telling others to shut up and calling them names is not very diplomatic.

Notice how you deflect and change the subject to me, personally?

Why do you do this? What's the point, other than to bait me and get attention?

Pfeh.

We need to unite to fight the GOP in 2018, 2020.

More seriously, because he is still on the national political scene, having opninons and stuff, while a great Democratic presidential candidate wound up sidelined. It'is as though he's getting the last word in or something, and that will not be allowed to stand.

He tried to take something that wasn't his!!!

upsetting.

So did the NYT. So did Comey. So did Judicial Watch.

When a candidate loses an incredibly close race, dozens of reasons all helped contribute to the loss.

Naming Bernie as one of many contributors is fine.

And it shouldn't distract us from discussing today's real news - that Facebook helped Trump and Russia defeat Hillary by sowing targeted hate ads.

After all Hillary won by 3 million votes. If the shoe were on the other foot we would hear endless complaints from the other side. Rigged election indeed.

The number 1 topic needs to be stopping Trumpy's administration continuing assaults on democracy, decency, and America.

PS. number#1 = number number one

We can't hit the brakes if we're not in a driver's seat.

I never thought of that.

Hrc primary supporters tend to blame Bernie and or Stein
Bernie primary supporters tend to blame Hrc
Generally both sides worked together in the general..a point forgotten

There are political reasons why folks preferred Hrc or Bernie in the primaries.
Here on du we wear our politics on our sleeve
It why we are here

Attack my scapegoat Bernie or scapegoat Hrc u attack me.

And I would respond
A wounded animal is dangerous and we r still wounded

and even Move on...primarying sitting Democrats and many including me believe this will cause us to lose any chance of taking the house in 18 or 20 and of course we won't get the Senate either which will allow the GOP to pack the courts with righties. It seems those who many believe cost us the 16 general are still busy attacking Democrats even in the age of Trump which is mind boggling. There has to be an enormous sense of entitlement to do this considering the costs to the poor, DACA kids, people who need health care,LGBTQ,people of color and women who will lose their rights over their own bodies maybe even birth control so we don't want to hear how the Democratic Party is just well you know not good enough.

Moveon does tons of good work and helped defeat Medicaid cuts.

Don't defame moveon. We should all be rallying to their side.

seat...I have stopped giving them one dime...they should be working against Trump not causing us to lose a house seat in Ohio.

just directly to the candidates. I've explained to those organizations that call that I have a gubernatorial/ Attorney General race to contribute to this year, and a Senate and House race next year. My money goes directly to those candidates (Northam/Herring/Kaine/Whomever).

elect Democratic candidates in other states as well...this withholding of money from the Democratic Party is foolish and self defeating in my view. On one hand many cry 'don't take corporate money' but on the other hand they refuse to fund the party...not logical and such a strategy will not lead to a congressional majority.

MoveOn did a lot to save Medicare and obamacare. Do you care about that?

Who's the Ohio candidate that moveon is supporting ? I couldn't find anything on a quick Google.

Ryan needs to be left alone...he is in a tough spot. I don't think I trust Move On to work for electoral victories...and I do not believe ideology ever trumps winning.

And why is the incumbent not getting support?

primaryed him. Well Trumbull County went for Trump so he is in a tough spot-so he has to appear willing to work with Trump. Thus far he has voted in lockstep with Democrats. He irritated me with the Nancy Pelosi thing...but for God's sake, he is a good guy and you don't do better in Ohio at the moment....and for move on to do this...totally pisses me off. I stopped funding them. I have given then a monthly donation for years...no more.

Oh fuck no

and there is no sitting Democrat in the House or Senate that is similar to Clarke nice what aboutism try...but there is real danger that Tim Ryan will lose h is seat to a Republican because of Move On's stupid primary.

her state? Better to have a Democrat than a Republican in terms of accomplishing anything...we need every sitting Democrat Senator to remain or it will be a blood bath literally. She voted to stop the ACA repeal...so consider that. Yes, you should ignore the ride on Air Force one.

Is that too much to ask for???

repeal of the ACA. When the alternative is a Republican, there really is no choice. And we will need moderate or conservative leaning Dems in order to take back Congress that is a fact. We have never held Congress without a big tent approach...never. There are not enough liberals like us to win Congress in every state. I was thrilled that she won ND and surprised.

much to lose and desperation... I understand

Take a look at 'Verrit' for instance.

It's becoming more and more clear by the day that Sanders isn't done. He plans on running again. Few want that, even out of his own supporters. It's just simple to see that he spends most of his time outside of the state he is senator of. He keeps throwing red meat to his base of support which most here aren't big fans of. Much of that aspect is petty garbage aimed at attacking Democrats. It's a clear political strategy ahead of going into an election. He talks to those who never voted for him for a political office more than those he was elected to represent. That is the pathway to a primary. I think we are seeing push back from what I believe is obvious.

Still, I like the threads about the up tick in re-fighting the primary that are about DU members habits over that of fighting the primary itself. Well done, I think we just went deeper into the abyss with this one.

I don't think he will run again; he will be too old. But I think his agenda is to keep alive the issues that he cares about and to motivate more people on the left to run for office. What tends to happen after an election is that the issues that the losing candidate addressed simply disappear. That happened with Gore and Social Security, and that problem still is not solved.

I don't see that as a reason at all. If it were valid there is no way he would have got into the last primary. Now its time for him to draw a line in the sand on age?

"and that problem still is not solved."

It never will be solved. Gore has no connection to its failure, success, or stagnation in any way.

For now, he would be facing two terms at a more advanced age. I don't see any signs that he wants to do that. As for Social Security, you seem to have missed the point of my post, which is that if a candidate loses, even popular proposals that he/she made disappear not only from public discourse, but from the legislative agenda. Gore was right about Social Security; the taxes that support it should not be used for other purposes, especially to mask the federal debt. Yet as he pointed out at the time, both political parties have done just that.

What we have heard on the topic for the most part is the dishonest argument that the program will go broke unless we keep raising the retirement age. There is far less discussion about lifting the cap on taxes for it so that it is not necessary to raise the retirement age to 70. The members of Congress that favor this are not the people who have paid into the system for their entire working lives. Just because life expectancy has increased means that workers remain healthy and vibrant enough to work to an advanced age. And why should they? Every other advanced country thinks that workers are entitled to a decent retirement, not to have to work until they drop, just as every other advanced country thinks that workers are entitled to certain guaranteed rights such as paid vacation leave, paid maternity/paternity leave, and guaranteed health care. We could have all of this too, if we had a more progressive tax system, and spent less money on so-called defense.

Weird, circular firing squad.

And it can't all be trolls or bots because there are some long-term posters involved.

But does anyone besides me see the downside in, not only refighting the primary, but also in casting our nominee and our party as victims?

No one is going to change their opinions - I know from experience in my own family. Even after all the discussions, my parents think Hillary was best and I think Bernie was best. So things certainly won't change on a message board. I have only posted once about it and the reply was from someone on my ignore list. I just am not interested in rehashing it.

And not see the name of Bernie Sanders mentioned for any reason except in connection with something that happened within the last month. Not last year, and sure as hell not three years from now. That's for the Independent Underground.

He's more popular than Taylor Swift and will have more energy at age 80 than Con Ed? Fine. Is he willing to harness all that to get us (as in the Democratic Party) a majority in Congress next year? If so, great, let's hear all about it. If not, 2016 is done, and 2020 is an opaque cloud through which none of us can see yet.

Whoever said to "let it go" was right, but unless Sanders rejoins the Democratic Party--and for good, not out of temporary convenience--I would have added: let HIM go as well. To those still obsessing about him, both pro and con, I have to say: I am SO not interested.

If it should turn out I am only speaking for myself, feel free to disregard this. MSNBC will disavow all knowledge of my actions. My post will self-destruct in five seconds. Good luck, Jim.

I am tired of seeing his name when I open DU too.

the same attacks on the party happen on this forum by stealth in terms crafted to avoid "hides," but transparently obvious to all.

I think it would be better to trash it out rather than experience a death of a thousand cuts myself.

There can't be reconciliation without truth. I think there are forces who prefer neither.

coming from the White House.

People are aghast that the divisiveness on our side aided the repugs' vote suppression and vote-hacking, the Russian bots, the Comey letter, et al in ushering in the orange debacle that we now have to live with.

The divisiveness cost us votes and people are angry that opportunity was lost and now realize that even with Mueller we can't get rid of the bloated election stealer as easily as we had hoped.

People want someone to blame for that.

The Democratic Party does not want to admit their part in their current situation. It's the Koch's, it was Bernie, it was the Russians, it was...on & on & on & never any self-reflection about how the party has changed over the past 37 years. I think the interview at this link deserves it's own thread, but I don't have a flame retardant suit, so I'll pass. This will probably generate enough heat, just posting it here. Fair warning - it's Ralph Nader. OMG! Run, as fast as you can!


https://theintercept.com/2017/06/25/ralph-nader-the-democrats-are-unable-to-defend-the-u-s-from-the-most-vicious-republican-party-in-history/


I think he makes some valid points.

People are using discusion of it to skirt the rules. Discussion of the book should be kept to a single thread, imo. It's one big problem of relying too much on jury moderation. Mods probably need to take a more hands on role in cases like this. We really don't need a new thread everytime someone wants to give their hot take about a book excerpt, or a reply to a criticm, or a counterattack to a counterattack, to a comment. It's a bit out of hand.

DU doesn't have moderators any longer. If people on DU want to discuss something, they will discuss it. You can vote to hide posts if you get called to a jury on that post, but there are no moderators here. We all get to decide what gets discussed. DU does have tools available to hide threads by keywords, though, if you feel the need to do that.

I haven't been here all that long, but the entire time there has been a steady stream of bullshit related to the 2016 primaries. It is idiotic.

Kamala Harris...and more.

We have young bright spots in our party.
Time to focus on our future.

I think we're so shocked and hurt and unable to yell at the people we'd really like to, we become surrogates for them and yell at one another. I don't care for it but it's something to do until we figure a way out of this I suppose.

And of course it might keep us from doing just that, but I remain hopeful.

So, people are talking about it. It's news, I think. I doubt they'll stop talking about her book and what it says for some time.

and there it is.

Although you'll probably be attacked for saying it,
and I'll be attacked for agreeing.

I've been trashing threads again.

Divide and conquer, also distract. As long as we're navel gazing and chucking stones at each other, we're neutralized.

That's most of it, and the rest is explained by a great prof of mine who once said, when the conversation becomes ego-involved, it's pretty much over. Some of us have just got to be right. I try to ignore all of it.

That's my read anyway.

I think Hillary Clinton has every right to say whatever the hell she wants, Bernie too.

started to panic.

Ignore them.

Tikki