General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIF ONLY there were some organization that specialized in construction and building, and were
so exceptionally trained that they had amazing success in getting ports, bridges, roads and powergrids OPERATIONAL (either constructed or repaired) in short order, in less than ideal circumstances.
And even better if that group, or crew or BATTALION had some experience in traveling on big ships, perhaps like Naval ships.
And if only this group, this battalion were available as civil servants to help in humanitarian crises and could have their vast experience and knowledge made useful in Puerto Rico at a day's notice, with like "orders" or something.
If only
P.S. My dad was an underwater welder in the Seabees for 4 years during the Vietnam war.
babylonsister
(171,111 posts)props to your dad. That sounds like it was really tough but important work.
OregonBlue
(7,756 posts)communications within a day or two. It can be done. They just aren't doing it.
Jake Stern
(3,145 posts)My son loves to wear his pop-pop's Seabee ball cap.
Turn CO Blue
(4,221 posts)GP6971
(31,275 posts)clear the roads to allow the loggies (logistics types) to do their job
Turn CO Blue
(4,221 posts)IF ONLY the Army had something like that.
GP6971
(31,275 posts)this dysfunctional "administration" would release them to do their job.
So they appointed a 3 star Army general to lead the recovery...the Commander of the Military District of DC. He'llbe powerless unless they give him assets to do the job.
But I guess golf is more important.
TomSlick
(11,150 posts)a group of folks who could drive trucks and operate ports, like a Transportation Corps.
Turn CO Blue
(4,221 posts)Well, if ONLY we had something like that...
GP6971
(31,275 posts)I'm a former Army transporter. For this mission it would be the 7th Group out of Ft Eustis. Or at least it was 30 years ago.
tblue37
(65,552 posts)but Trump has not been mobilizing them or allowing them to be mobilized.
weissmam
(905 posts)Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)But they cannot just "spend" money. It must be appropriated by Congress.
They have also suffered five years of hiring freezes under Obama and another under Trump. They are not what they were even ten years ago.
This is what happens when you demonize civil servants. It's an aging workforce and attrition has taken its toll.
world wide wally
(21,762 posts)Turn CO Blue
(4,221 posts)LittleGirl
(8,292 posts)weissmam
(905 posts)Turn CO Blue
(4,221 posts)annabanana
(52,791 posts)There are people up to the task. It is unconscionable that they aren't already down there.
Turn CO Blue
(4,221 posts)they will be fully deployed. I think FEMA under Trump is exactly what we think it would be - - no matter what experts we may have they can't be effective at emergency management or humanitarian aid WITHOUT THE WILL FROM LEADERSHIP.
Roy Rolling
(6,943 posts)Mountains and deserts only. Islands cost extra.
tiptonic
(765 posts)The Seabees can handle things, along with the Army engineers, Corp of Engineers. That's what they do. Bet trump and his cronies, don't even know they exist. Him with his 5 deferments during Vietnam.
B2G
(9,766 posts)They are in charge of restoring power.
I really wish people would bother to find out what's actually going on.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)I was in the area for a week for training. The museum proper was closed but the park was open. Had some cool stuff there, including several generations quanset huts and the original Seabee statue.
Leith
(7,817 posts)You'd think that they would have the will to use them in the service of actual Americans.
Fuck this hair furor regime all to hell.
I'm a little upset after watching Rachel. Can you tell?
Turn CO Blue
(4,221 posts)I've been so numb this last year, and this crisis is the final straw for me.
Leith
(7,817 posts)"Obama responded to emergencies better #PuertoRico."
It's only 50 characters....
rickford66
(5,534 posts)That isn't our slogan for nothing. CE3 1969-1971. Created for amphibious landings on Pacific Islands and building landing strips and more from scratch. I am angry at the waste of these resources.
Turn CO Blue
(4,221 posts)going to fully deploy. And as another reply upthread wrote, let's get some Army transportation corps there too to get over those big crevasses in the roads.
rickford66
(5,534 posts)We were cross-trained to be able to step into another job as needed. For example, I was an electrician and was trained as a heavy equipment operator just in case. They can handle anything. I'll be looking for news about Seabees. Thanks for the heads up.
PS. Remember they could to do this while under fire and often did.
sarge43
(28,946 posts)Solly Mack
(90,803 posts)Ptah
(33,057 posts)Turn CO Blue
(4,221 posts)First Speaker
(4,858 posts)...and of course, I was impressed as hell by John Wayne--hey, I was eight... But I also have a strong memory of feeling something like, wow--we're so lucky to be Americans, because we have big, strong, courageous guys like this, who know how to do stuff and are good at it. I had that feeling inside of me for years, that we Americans could do anything...and that film was part of why I felt so, in the way that early experiences do. Since JFK was president then, that feeling was more-or-less justified. Now of course... *Sigh*. I wish kids today could still feel like that...
all american girl
(1,788 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Much of the infrastructure in Afghanistan was contracted out.
Someone should ring up Dick Cheney and get the ball rolling, once we've secured it by buying up Puerto Rico's debt at junk bond rates so we can fuck them over even more once they are barely back on their feet.
sarge43
(28,946 posts)Ready, willing and able to stand with their Navy and Army brothers and sisters
HAB911
(8,957 posts)telephone man in New Guinea during WWII, and my brother was SEABEE reserve electronics instructor in the 50's
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)All the things people are listing here exist.
None of it exists outside the logistical demands that come with moving them and the equipment and everything needed to sustain them.
Most people here have no clue of the logistics involved with actually deploying and sustaining units like that. It does not happen instantly, nothing happens in a vacuum, and it's a hugely complicated system.
That we have 5000+ personnel there now with more streaming in is actually a huge accomplishment of logistics in a very short period, one that no other country or organization on earth could pull off.
If you went to a Seabee unit on active duty right now and told them to deploy- they will need 24 hours just to get everyone back from leave and schools and allow the Sailors to get their affairs in order for everything from child care to bills being paid to pets cared for, the do all the paperwork needed to deploy for each person, and make all the planning and coordination needed for a last minute move, then another 24 to get their equipment ready to go and properly prepared for air transport (it all has to be perfectly clean and no leaks and prepared for air transport), then you need to move all their equipment to the airfield, then you need to draw and have all the stuff they don't keep on hand that they will need like enough MRE's and water to sustain them and get all that to the airfield.
Now you have to load it all on pallets and have them inspected by the Air Force and then you get all the aircraft in and loaded and then you fly over.
For most units pulling that off in a week would be a miracle. But here we are less than a week out declaring the military has failed because they haven't moved with virtually impossible speed.
People seem to thing every military unit is sitting there with bags packed, all family affairs in perfect order, all equipment loaded, all spare parts packed up and ready just twiddling their thumbs waiting for orders 24/7/365 and they can just be beamed anywhere instantly ready to roll.
The reality is far different....
Turn CO Blue
(4,221 posts)From WaPo article:
After an earthquake shattered Haitis capital on Jan. 12, 2010, the U.S. military mobilized as if it were going to war.
Before dawn the next morning, an Army unit was airborne, on its way to seize control of the main airport in Port-au-Prince. Within two days, the Pentagon had 8,000 American troops en route. Within two weeks, 33 U.S. military ships and 22,000 troops had arrived. More than 300 military helicopters buzzed overhead, delivering millions of pounds of food and water.
- snip- the mission to Haiti an island nation several hundred miles from the U.S. mainland stands as an example of how quickly relief efforts can be mobilized.
www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/us-responded-to-haiti-quake-more-forcefully-than-to-puerto-rico-disaster/2017/09/28/74fe9c02-a465-11e7-8cfe-d5b912fabc99_story.html?utm_term=.c139586e7690
__________________________________________
There is no urgency for Puerto Rico compared to Haiti and several people have made that observation.
We are coming up on the two week mark in a couple of days. Compare 22K troops to 5K troops. Compare 300 helicopters to 30.
We can and have mobilized in the past with four times the response and resources within fewer days.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)Troops are "enroute" as soon as the order has been given and they have started the process I outlined above to deploy.
And that total for Haiti is including those who were offshore on ships, including aircraft carriers, not actual boots on the ground doing work on the island. Your comparing two widely different numbers. We never had 22k or anything close to that on the ground there. We already have 10k on the ground in PR between the military and other Federal agencies.
Plus, you will note they "secured" the airport. We literally went in with infantry and special operations and seized control of the airport and put a full security permitter around it because it wasn't secure or safe- essentially an invasion. That accounted for a lot of the bodies on the ground in that number and that wasn't needed in this case.
When you actually compare true numbers the response here is actually moving faster than Haiti did.
TexasBushwhacker
(20,256 posts)2 weeks before, knocking out power for 1 Million residents. Were any engineers/troops already there? Had any aid (food, water, fuel) already been sent? We knew that PR would be hit around Wednesday the 20th as early as Saturday the 16th. Was ANYTHING done in advance? I'm sure Trump was playing golf.
TomSlick
(11,150 posts)"The difficult we do right away, the impossible takes a little longer."
This problem didn't arise yesterday. There were strong forecasts days before the storm hit. Warning orders could have gone out a couple of days before the storm hit. Execute order could have been issued the day after.
Another simple rule I was taught. "PPPPP - Prior Planning Prevents Piss-Poor Performance."
This isn't on the military. Execute orders come from the WH.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)So my opinions are formed on actually having down this kind of planning and execution instead of some cute slogans somebody taught me.
TomSlick
(11,150 posts)I was, however, a stuff puke in a Theater Sustainment Command whose motto was "Can Do, Anytime, Anywhere." From my observation, they can. On order and with resources, logisticians are amazing people. Logisticians win wars.
If the US military was incapable of having a world class logistics operation up and going 1200 miles from CONUS at D+9 (with at least two days of warning), it would be a paper tiger. Fortunately, it is not. It's a matter of will and somebody giving the order.
I remember the aphorisms I was taught in the Army because they're pretty good rules to live by. One of them is "People who can't never will."
questionseverything
(9,666 posts)that is the question that needs answering
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)They do have a helluva setup going.
Right now there are 5000+ military and another 5000 federal civilian responders on the island. 10,000 personnel moved there with all the life support needed to sustain them from feeding to shelter to sanitation all moved and set up in under 10 days, and in under 7 since the first runway was reopened.
Many more thousands offshore on ships providing support.
And not just the quickest and easiest people to move, who would have been the Ready Brigade of the 82nd who moved first in Haiti, because a few thousand light infantry would be mostly useless there, but of all the right people. They could have just sent the 82nd like in Haiti and the numbers would be bigger but they wouldn't be very productive, just warm bodies on the ground. They have moved the engineers and medical personnel and others who are the ones suited for this.
Those 10,000 are all at work and are also being fed and supplied water and everything else while also pushing that out into a landscape that's been devastated and has virtually no functioning infrastructure left. They were not just moved but every bit of life support for them was moved in too.
People are acting like that's somehow insignificant or minuscule or not a Herculean effort- but in fact it's a huge, huge, huge accomplishment.
There are lots of mistakes made. The Comfort should have been ready to sail sooner, they should have started putting the crew together sooner instead of waiting to see if there was a need. There should have been a whole lot better preparation on the island before, especially in the form of redundant communication systems and methods, but that's mostly an issue outside the role of the Federal government. I'm sure they ended up heavy on some assets and light on others, it looks like they underestimated the need for truck drivers for example, but no operation like this ever gets it 100% right from the onset you are adapting to the situation as you go.
But the reality is, to anywho who understands and has done logistics, what has happened thus far is actually an amazing effort.
Quite honestly I don't think there would have been any difference had this happened last year versus this year. Save for a few faces at the top the same professionals are working it now that would have been then doing the exact same things. Maybe the Comfort would have sailed a bit sooner. For sure we wouldn't have a moron bashing local government officials in the midst of their disaster response. But the Soldiers and Sailors and Marines and Airmen and Coast Gaurdsmen are all execting the mission every bit as vigorously and professionally as they would have last year- in all reality who sits in the Oval Office has virtually no impact on what any of them are doing in the short term on matters like this.
Now when it moves from the immediate action response to more of a recovery role, we will see who holds the office have a much bigger role.
TomSlick
(11,150 posts)There was surely a contingency plan on the shelf that could have been pulled out and dusted off days before Maria hit - when the forecasting started pointing at Puerto Rico. Warning orders could have been issued two or three days before Maria hit - when the forecasts solidified.
The Comfort could have been underway at D+1. Needed re-open personnel could have been at the retired Navy base on D+1 and the base sufficiently open to accept cargo by D+2 or 3. Navy CB and Army engineers (starting with AC and moving to RC) could have immediately moved in the hardware needed to open the roads. Get the roads open and let the loggies do their thing.
We're at D+9 and people - American citizens - are still dying in the hospitals for lack of fuel.
Again, this isn't the military's fault. There was no will at the national command authority level to do something for brown Spanish speakers who cannot vote in National elections until the media finally realized what was not happening.
questionseverything
(9,666 posts)12 days since forecast was known
what this response looks like is a deliberate culling
TexasBushwhacker
(20,256 posts)2 weeks before. So had SOME help already been sent?
questionseverything
(9,666 posts)there are only 3.5million people in PR so nearly 33%of island already w/o power should of been addressed
we have invaded countries in less time so I really am not buying what lee is shoveling
TexasBushwhacker
(20,256 posts)5 days before.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Hekate
(91,041 posts)snowybirdie
(5,252 posts)helped reconstruction on Saipan in WWII
CanonRay
(14,146 posts)as in short for Construction Battalion