General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsFuck. This. Shit.
I am about to become very unpopular but I don't give a fuck, so here goes.
I dont believe the photo of Al Franken and Leanne Tweedon is an example of sexual harassment, misogyny, or any of the other things it has been described as. As the photo makes abundantly clear, Franken was not touching Ms. Tweedons breasts he was clearly hamming it up for the camera, and NOT engaging in sexual misconduct by any stretch of the imagination.
Many have said that even joking about such things is, in and of itself, demonstrative of some underlying disrespect towards women. I call bullshit on that, and strenuously so.
To say that what is inappropriate now was always inappropriate is to ignore the fact that attitudes change, and what was accepted as humour back in the day, or in a certain context, may not be acceptable when judged by current-day standards. Thankfully, such standards change as we evolve as a nation and as a people and what was laugh-inducing once upon a time is no longer a laughing matter when viewed through a 2017 lens.
How many of us laughed and still laugh at shows like I Love Lucy and The Honeymooners, which depicted women as easily-befuddled females whose only true passion was buying a new hat? We accept that punchlines that were funny in the fifties are not relevant in 2017, and surely we have the intellect to realize that that was then, and this is now. We understand that context matters, and that Lucy Ricardo and Alice Cramden, while representative of the stereotypes of their era, are not representative of women in todays world.
In judging what was acceptable in the past and what is acceptable now, it is disingenuous to apply the same litmus test across the board as though times never change, as though the times in which we once lived have not been relegated to the dustbin of history, as though we have not outgrown depicting women as scatter-brained, hat-buying females who do housework while wearing pristine shirt-waist dresses accessorized with a string of pearls.
The fact that Ms. Tweedon suddenly remembered how horrifying an experience working with Al Franken was the fact that the already-disgraced Roger Stone tweeted that it was Frankens turn in the barrel BEFORE Ms. Tweedon came forward with her accusations, the fact that whataboutism is the ONLY defence Republicans can come up with to dispute Roy Moores pedophilia is as obvious as it is despicable.
Ive read here on DU and elsewhere, time and again, that we should judge people by their actions. Senator Frankens actions in terms of womens rights speak for themselves.
I am appalled by how easily some people have been led to believe that Senator Franken is a sexual predator based on the word of a Trump-supporting Republican who has conveniently accused him of sexual misconduct at exactly the same time a GOP pedophile has been accused of molesting teen-aged girls. I am especially appalled by those who are equating an obviously for yuks in front of the camera photo as evidence of both sides do it, so lets just call it a wash.
EVERY Democrat who is buying into that false equivalence is being played by the Republicans and they really should know better.
In the meantime, the Republicans are laughing their asses off at Democrats who think (wrongfully so) that if we sacrifice one of our own on the altar of tit-for-tat, we come across as fair and balanced.
I stand with Senator Franken on the basis of what he has done, and continues to do, to further the rights of American women, and his willingness to stand with us when it counts.
I am not interested in what Al Franken said or did as a comedian I am interested in what he says and does as a SENATOR. It is unfortunate that some people cant distinguish one role from the other. It is equally unfortunate that some people are so anxious to believe that if we just throw one of our own on the funeral pyre, we have somehow appeased the what-about-him media gods who have decided that a human sacrifice on our part somehow evens the score as though evening the score is what is important here.
If youre buying into the current both sides do it bullshit being proffered by the right-wing, you are being manipulated by the very people who know how easily-manipulated you are.
rzemanfl
(29,585 posts)Lochloosa
(16,084 posts)yardwork
(61,795 posts)Sugar Smack
(18,748 posts)Madam45for2923
(7,178 posts)lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)onit2day
(1,201 posts)yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)You don't see that everyday.
SCantiGOP
(13,878 posts)Don't want to join the "it's the woman's fault" default brigade.
Didn't it make you stop and think when he immediately apologized for it with no reservation?
rzemanfl
(29,585 posts)It is not the "woman's fault brigade." Consider the source, timing and foreknowledge of the Repuke ratfuckers army.
You are saying "She has ovaries, he doesn't, so anything she says is true, guilty, next case."
fts
SCantiGOP
(13,878 posts)He has a D after his name, not guilty, next case.
(And he did apologize, as he should have.)
rzemanfl
(29,585 posts)InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,128 posts)rzemanfl
(29,585 posts)InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,128 posts)I do like the double whopper with cheese!!
uponit7771
(90,371 posts)dalton99a
(81,708 posts)woolldog
(8,791 posts)Bravo.
spanone
(135,950 posts)Blue Owl
(50,596 posts)n/t
a kennedy
(29,779 posts)Pepsidog
(6,254 posts)imax2268
(6,004 posts)Nt...
ChubbyStar
(3,191 posts)Many thanks!
joshcryer
(62,287 posts)But your post sums up my feelings really well.
Wellstone ruled
(34,661 posts)There is more that we will find out as the days come. Something smells to high hell.
brush
(53,978 posts)Maggiemayhem
(811 posts)What is also worrisome is how quickly everyone jumped to condemn Franken without even doing any reasearch. Where was the word alleged? If this is and other accusations of sexual impropriety are proven false, it will be back to the you cant beleive a woman rhetoric. About a year ago, there was a poll on a facebook page I check occasionally asking if women should be IMPRISONED for making false accusations for sexual assault and rape and the overwhelming response was yes. So tread carefully and dont jump to conclusions. IMO, this is a right wing coordinated attack to keep power in the Senate. There is no equivalency between Moore and Franken. A joke versus multiple underaged females being assaulted . The right is desperately trying to discredit the Moore accusations, including photoshopping the ink in the yearbook to half blue and half black and sending Breitbart reporters to Alabama and totally making up bullshit to discredit and harass these women. While everyone was distracted with these accusations against Franken, the House passed the tax bill which if this becomes a law will hurt many people.
Horse with no Name
(33,959 posts)RhodeIslandOne
(5,042 posts)It was a candid photo taken amongst people who were goofing around on a "road trip" if you will. Until we know the exact context, there are probably a zillion photos floating around in the ether of all of us, men and women, where people just taking one look at them would go "What the hell is going on here?" and if you had to explain, it might seem fishy to someone who wasn't there and doesn't like you anyway.
maddiemom
(5,106 posts)MFM008
(19,837 posts)I just heard Jake Tapper ask Frankens accuser what she thinks about people who make accusations like this for POLITICAL GAIN. Maybe like many of us Jake smells a right wing RAT
fallout87
(819 posts)the position we take, then you better be prepared to accept the consequences of we lose midterm seats when this whole thing is thrown in our faces again and again. Sexual Assault should be punished regardless of party affiliation. If Franken doesn't resign, this will have far reaching consequences that we do not need.
Corgigal
(9,291 posts)for sexual assault for whatever country this uso tour was occurring? Cause I doubt it's 20 plus years.
It's done, let his voters and senate peers decide.
rzemanfl
(29,585 posts)It's in the commandments, "Thou shalt not do a bad sight gag."
rzemanfl
(29,585 posts)Grassy Knoll
(10,118 posts)rzemanfl
(29,585 posts)Docreed2003
(16,905 posts)Post count or not....Im inclined to be suspicious of someone who recently joined and seems to show up and post only in threads that are stirring disunity. Its just a little too convenient for my tastes.
rzemanfl
(29,585 posts)Last edited Sat Nov 18, 2017, 06:38 PM - Edit history (1)
Damn, I called someone a troll here, by their user name, over 36 hours ago and nothing happened. Hmmmm.
ChubbyStar
(3,191 posts)You seem to be struggling. Sorry this is so hard on you.
Gidney N Cloyd
(19,847 posts)liberal_patriot_md
(194 posts)So if we dont immediately banish Franken for a single persons allegation (without any investigation or corroboration) we lose moral high ground against the GOP? Absurd.
That would suggest that it is a subject voters care enough about to vote against a candidate/party. Sorry, but that is not the case. Trump is in the WH.
Bayard
(22,242 posts)I have problems with several aspects of this woman's story, and her retelling of it.
Along with that, this didn't happen in a dark Sears parking lot. Its supposed to have happened during a very public USO comedy tour. She's an actress/entertainer. I'm assuming that's why the photo shows her in full battle gear, with what looks like body armor.
I see this as a Rethug ploy to divert from Roy Moore's pedophilia---"See! They have scandals too!"
I absolutely stand with Al Franken, and the good he has done as a senator. That's why Rethugs hate him. To suggest he should resign is beyond the pale.
Larrybanal
(227 posts)Last edited Fri Nov 17, 2017, 02:21 PM - Edit history (1)
plus I saw post from photographer of that photo who said it was a set up gag...the post was pulled by author but I think there is more to this and that is why frankel wants an investigation and accuser does not
Response to fallout87 (Reply #17)
Post removed
Skittles
(153,311 posts)drama much?
VOX
(22,976 posts)I love Michelle Obamas dearly, but when they go low, we have to tunnel underneath them. They only play down, dirty and for keeps, and Im fucking sick of all the pussyfooting that Democrats have done since Bill Clintons tenure.
FIGHT BACK. YOUR COUNTRY IS AT STAKE.
Glimmer of Hope
(5,823 posts)BlueMTexpat
(15,374 posts)His actions clearly constitute sexual harassment.
Trump also admitted that he does it because he can. He has NEVER once apologized. EVER.
As for Franken's actions constituting sexual harassment, today yes. Then - the whole situation was more nuanced.
And Franken STILL apologized. Period.
GaryCnf
(1,399 posts)Since you can actually see air between Franken's left hand and the vest and it is impossible to tell whether the right hand is making physical contact (and given the context of the picture consistent placement would be expected), it appears that either you define sexual assault more broadly than the vast majority of the population OR you are of the school who believes that every allegation of sexual assault should be accepted as true unless disproven and therefore accept her word when she says that Franken kissed her against her will and she found it offensive.
If it is the former, I will rest easy because so few people agree with you that this picture won't affect Franken one way or the other. If it is the latter, let me say:
WTF
Accusations of sexual misconduct must be taken seriously because of the nature of the harm inflicted if they are true. "Taken seriously" does not mean such accusations should be presumed to be true. Every accusation, whether of sexual misconduct or shoplifting, should be examined to determine whether it is credible. Here, I challenge anyone to provide a rational explanation of the reasons Franken's accuser should be believed past the point where she says that it is her in the photo.
Anyone claiming that such a photo, standing alone, disqualifies a person from public office or even is relevant to whether a person should hold public office has an agenda.
Pacifist Patriot
(24,654 posts)Resign over this? Oh for heaven's sake!
PJMcK
(22,074 posts)The differences in the stories about Roy Moore and Donald Trump compared to Senator Franken are continental in size, context and scope.
As usual, Nance nailed it. Try rereading her post.
treestar
(82,383 posts)in the WH?
paleotn
(18,015 posts)clutch your fucking pearls somewhere else, Ivan.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)because it sounds like you are.
grossproffit
(5,591 posts)Lil Missy
(17,865 posts)Snackshack
(2,541 posts)Corgigal
(9,291 posts)point in her career then. It seems like NOW, she was abused by men but this time for a check. She's on a crappy low rated radio show, she shopped the photo to the highest bidder. It's just business and if her career was in a different pay scale it wouldn't have happened.
Franken was a dummy at the time, but it was at his comedy time in his life. However, let the senate investigate it and then his voters, and I feel the same with Moore. Let the voters decide.
Turbineguy
(37,420 posts)Years ago there was a series of Wendy's commercials that showed women wearing burlap bags, with cutouts for the head and arms, which were the suggested fashion. Evening wear was a burlap bag also, but came with a flashlight. A Soviet Lady Major would say, "Verrrry Nice!" every time a model would appear on the catwalk.
This seems connected now.
Ilsa
(61,720 posts)Very well explained.
The forced kiss is a gross story, though.
Rachel is bringing up interesting points about when these things occur.
Franken has apologized and called for an investigation. He's done much for women as a senator, and I think he should remain in office.
Nevernose
(13,081 posts)And since the accusation is being made by a right wing radio host, and coordinated by Roger Stone and Sean Hannity, there are definitely some serious issues with her consensual forced kiss.
Ilsa
(61,720 posts)Backed away from some of these stories this week because I feel saturated, overwhelmed, and a little triggered.
LittleGirl
(8,292 posts)and can't look away either. It sucks.
Nevernose
(13,081 posts)It was infuriating.
Franken wrote a scene in which they kissed. She didnt want to, but they tried the scene once in a rehearsal. She didnt like it, so they didnt do it again.
They claimed that Franken couldnt recall the rehearsal. What Franken actually said was, Although my memory of that rehearsal is very different from hers... It was a polite denial without shaming the victim.
Cable news is twisting all of their words into something that doesnt even resemble the truth.
(I ran errands this afternoon. CNN on the radio and internet waiting in lines. I should probably do something more productive, like learn French, but Im apparently a political junkie)
Skittles
(153,311 posts)Bayard
(22,242 posts)I'm thinking other people there should be able to verify or dissent this kiss.
Senator Franken is not a Roy Moore!!
VOX
(22,976 posts)She must also be sickened by Bill OReilly and Roger Ailes and the whole Fox News shady history where women are concerned.
No? Not a peep.
Oh, but liberal Hollywood elite Harvey Weinstein, she does mention him. And he is a scumbag who deserves to be put away.
But Al Franken? It stinks of Stone. It stinks of Bannon. This is how dirty they play. Democrats and progressives have one hell of a messy fight ahead, and this just a small part of that.
Big kick and rec, NanceGreggs!
misanthrope
(7,436 posts)My skepticism has been on edge all day from all of this.
L. Coyote
(51,129 posts)NOT. And don't hold your breath either.
VOX
(22,976 posts)Thanks, I was getting lightheaded. (*huff huff pant*)
Bettie
(16,151 posts)You said the things I've been thinking.
3catwoman3
(24,133 posts)Not unpopular with me.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)Some serious bullshit going on here.
orangecrush
(19,666 posts)SCantiGOP
(13,878 posts)Assume this story had come out about someone else.
Go through the original post and every time it says Franken, change it to Ted Cruz.
Would anyone in this site ageee with this?
Rank hypocrisy. OK to blame the woman if the accused is a well-respected liberal.
Why the hell did Sen Franken immediately apologize? He, unlike many (most) on this site realize that wrong is wrong.
USALiberal
(10,877 posts)nolabear
(42,006 posts)Pope George Ringo II
(1,896 posts)That actually gets pretty close to describing Ted Cruz, if we're honest.
nolabear
(42,006 posts)😝
grantcart
(53,061 posts)This is from a birther who makes money by supporting Hannity but whose career has fallen to the b and c list as other prettier talking skirts have been rotated onto Hannity.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029851956
TexasBushwhacker
(20,256 posts)windbag like Cruz. So it is a bit different.
Atticus
(15,124 posts)misanthrope
(7,436 posts)This Tweeden lady is an aspiring celebrity and media figure who has long since proven her eagerness to hitch her star to right-wing media notoriety. For celebrities, little publicity is bad publicity.
Maybe it's wrong of me, maybe it's unfair but it's just the way it is.
Control-Z
(15,682 posts)I react the same. I haven't said what my reaction is but it is different than of someone as mean spirited, greedy, and heartless as Cruz or the trump-maggot or Moore.
RVN VET71
(2,700 posts)I've been skeptical -- not close minded, but skeptical -- about the accusations against Moore, until the accusations piled up into what seems like he groped an endless line of teen-agers. If the same evidence had been levied against Cruz as against Franken I'd have called foul, and waited for the scam to blow up. Look, Franken essentially denies the kissing incident -- and even as Tweeden described it, it's more a stupid than a depraved move. And as far as the photo "evidence" of groping: give me a freakin' break. He's not touching her, she's wearing a kevlar vest -- and probably felt a little pissed off about the photo, but not enough to make an issue of it.
I will await additional complaints against Franken before suggesting any harsh moves against Franken. If there are none, I think the whole issue should be dropped as just another right-wing effort to distract from its own crimes and depravity.
Stone announced the "scandal" before Tweeden put it out there -- which says, obviously, that she worked with Stone on the story. If the DNC establishment wants to pull the rug out from under Franken over this -- barring additional accusations, a la Moore -- the DNC can go to hell. They screwed Bernie out of a very likely nomination, and it angers me that they did so, but I sucked it up and voted for Hillary. But if they move precipitously against Franken, they will have lost me forever.
Pacifist Patriot
(24,654 posts)Whenever a scandal breaks, I go through a series of mental examination regardless of whether it's a Democrat or a Republican involved.
1. Do I have enough information to even pass judgment at this point?
2. What does either side have to lose or gain from making accusations?
3. What would be my emotional response if (pick a person from the other party) was the accused instead?
4. What is the broader context that may be influencing timing of accusations?
and so on and so on.
This story has a lot of troubling issues with it.
I used Marco Rubio in my mental exercise yesterday because a) he's my Senator, b) I loathe him, and c) he has shown weird moments of odd humor.
I came to the following conclusions.
1. Need way more context on the photo to know what was actually going on, but at first glance it looks like a dumb gag and I can't bring myself to be appalled by it yet.
2. Wondered if there was a history/pattern of disrespect to women that was going to be revealed over the coming days, because without one it doesn't seem all that alarming.
3. Does not remotely compare to the charges against the powerful men who have been exposed for their records of abuse recently, so the false equivalencies are ridiculous.
On the other hand, when the Moore story broke I thought about my reaction had it been a Democratic candidate for Senator. I have no doubt I would have been as appalled and definitely would have wanted the candidate to withdraw. A long history of predatory behavior against minors when the accusers are not from across the aisle is damning.
As a victim of sexual assault and harassment myself, I don't take this lightly and do think women should be believed. But I'm also an academic who can't help but examine sources. One of the criteria you look at when weighing historical evidence from a contemporary source is the biases of the writer. If an enemy says something flattering, it's more likely to be true than if they say something critical. And vice versa. I can't help it, but if Franken's accuser had been a liberal I'd give her more credence. Stone's involvement just cements that for me.
PJMcK
(22,074 posts)You've articulated an excellent list of questions to ask that should be applied to nearly every political story. Of course, the tribalism of our polarized political environment prevent most people from using the logical process of analysis that you've outlined.
Great post. Enjoy your weekend.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)JI7
(89,289 posts)Bettie
(16,151 posts)the zodiac killer.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)Especially victims of sexual and domestic violence.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Nor can any Republican. The fact of being a Republican means one does not have the talent to be a comedian.
Nor would Ted Cruz or any Republican volunteer to do something like entertain troops.
Further, they voted for the Pussy Grabber to be President. They listen to the many times married Rush L. They vote for people like Newt Gringich. They do not get to complain about these incidents.
They nominate a guy who thought teen girls were the ones to date when he was 30. They criticize us as feminazis when we complain about this stuff. It's just locker room talk and boys will be boys. Joseph and Mary were married when she was 14 - implies 14-year-old girls are adults.
No, we can complain. They cannot.
moda253
(615 posts)ailsagirl
(22,911 posts)Not unpopular with me, either
USALiberal
(10,877 posts)OhioBlue
(5,126 posts)and photo appeared where he held his hands over top of a woman's flack jacket without actually touching her,it wouldn't even be news.
USALiberal
(10,877 posts)notdarkyet
(2,226 posts)A picture of a fake groping that never was. I thought it was fishy from the beginning. Wake up people. They are relentless and nonstop in trying to drag us around, every day, with bots and propaganda. Be aware. Be suspicious. Look what they did in the election and continue to do. Be warriors.
USALiberal
(10,877 posts)Skittles
(153,311 posts)USALiberal
(10,877 posts)Skittles
(153,311 posts)we have critical thinking skills that allow us to tell the difference between something that may be inappropriate and something that is CRIMINAL
well, at least MOST OF US do
CatMor
(6,212 posts)Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)I tend to agree with your post.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)60th rec that is.
melman
(7,681 posts)ChubbyStar
(3,191 posts)xxqqqzme
(14,887 posts)If you are 20, 'back in the day' you were only 9 and couldn't vote yet.
VOX
(22,976 posts)(And I had speeds up in quotes, but when posting from a phone, the subject line doesnt hold all punctuation.)
A year to a four-year-old is 1/4 of his/her life; a year to an 85-year-old is 1/85, a much smaller fraction. Which is why theres a relativity factor in the concept of time.
Youll have to forgive me. I just had a hit (*cough*), so Im riffing.
Pacifist Patriot
(24,654 posts)Detecting normative shifts from 11 years ago is not as obvious as those that have happened over fifty years, so it may seem like an odd statement to make.
Society has changed enough in just the last decade to render some jokes, attitudes, behaviors, etc. that would have been unremarkable in 2006 unacceptable today.
I've been watching "The Good Wife" over the last several months, a show that aired 2009-2016. It's made me realize how much has changed in recent years. Just look at the dramatic shift in attitudes towards LGBT. No, we're not perfect there yet, but we are way ahead of where we were just a few years ago, let alone a decade.
moda253
(615 posts)Now we all know nickleback is inexcusable.
Pacifist Patriot
(24,654 posts)uponit7771
(90,371 posts)Chasstev365
(5,191 posts)CincyDem
(6,419 posts)Gidney N Cloyd
(19,847 posts)videohead5
(2,190 posts)It was staged...
Photographer: [S]he was playing dead and SHE wanted him to revive her. I took the picture it was a funny moment everyone was smiling having a good time.
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)though no photog was named OR has come forward.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,128 posts)would feel a lot better about the situation.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)Thank you.
burrowowl
(17,656 posts)revmclaren
(2,579 posts)bdamomma
(63,974 posts)geez, this is totally getting out of hand, Senator Franken wasn't even a Senator and not a pedo.
BannonsLiver
(16,548 posts)VOX
(22,976 posts)elmac
(4,642 posts)its not anything a respectable adult would do. Maybe something a punk would do. Its disgusting. I believe he has grown as a human being since then and feels bad about it, tRump is incapable of growing or feeling bad.
Grassy Knoll
(10,118 posts)flamingdem
(39,341 posts)but still needs to be said as you did so well.
I think we're dealing with some fakeness in the reaction as well as people who didn't read but assumed he was another grabber like potus. Not even close.
madville
(7,413 posts)emboldens any other women to come forward with their stories. That seems to be the norm lately, once the first story breaks it gives others courage to come forward as well. I'm not saying I expect anyone else to come forward but before I make any judgement I want to see it completely play out.
Duppers
(28,134 posts)SweetieD
(1,660 posts)The whole thing makes a mockery of true sexual assault and harassment.
SunSeeker
(51,811 posts)nini
(16,672 posts)and that would help all true sexual assault claims.
obamanut2012
(26,188 posts)paleotn
(18,015 posts)It's a fantastic move on his part. All involved will have to state what they know on the record....under oath and in full view of the national media.
uponit7771
(90,371 posts)doc03
(35,454 posts)calimary
(81,608 posts)I've said it before, here. It looks like a staged photo to me, too. Like they were yucking it up backstage or something.
I've got so many mixed feelings about this. Hell, I edited another post elsewhere three times, kicking this one around from different directions! Our son stopped by and did a "did you hear about Al Franken!" with me. And he paired it with "Don't you DARE do a double standard and say you don't believe the woman in his case!"
AY-Yi-Yi!
You make a toweringly good point here:
"I am not interested in what Al Franken said or did as a comedian I am interested in what he says and does as a SENATOR. It is unfortunate that some people cant distinguish one role from the other. It is equally unfortunate that some people are so anxious to believe that if we just throw one of our own on the funeral pyre, we have somehow appeased the what-about-him media gods who have decided that a human sacrifice on our part somehow evens the score as though evening the score is what is important here."
DAYUM you're good.
musette_sf
(10,209 posts)SunSeeker
(51,811 posts)ancianita
(36,238 posts)grantcart
(53,061 posts)The picture was goofy and wouldn't be taken today but it gives no credence to the rest of her story.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029851956
To believe her is not to under cut the other victims but simply to say that in considering serious issues we don't have to check our brains at the door.
If other victims come forward on Franken that would be another story.
BigmanPigman
(51,673 posts)especially on SNL in the 70s, they will get a lot more juicy shit to take out of context, twist and turn and spit out to suit any agenda to further the GOP goal...DISTRACTION. Stay focused on the real story and the real news.
LittleGirl
(8,292 posts)thank you.
Ms. Toad
(34,130 posts)blacks, gays, etc.
That is not different in nature than saying this: To say that slavery, which is inappropriate now, was always inappropriate is to ignore the fact that attitudes change, and what was accepted as the proper relationship betwen the races back in the day, or in a certain context, may not be acceptable when judged by current-day standards. Thankfully, such standards change as we evolve as a nation and as a people, and what was the appropriate relationship between the races once upon a time is no longer the appropriate relationship when viewed through a 2017 lens.
More to the point - Moore's behavior was "back in the day." The fact that it was relatively commonplace doesn't make it appropriate. Any more than slavery, or antisemitism, or any number of other attitudes carried into practice that treat classes of people as less than cis-straight-white-men.
As to this particular kinds of humor - crude sexual humor that exploited men's power over women, or boys-will-be-boys attitudes was NEVER appropriate. It was commonplace - and women were ridiculed for challenging it - even back in the day. Being commonplace, however, doesn't make it appropriate, even back in the day.
I've been an activist, working on raising awareness about this type of crude sexual humor (among other things) since the mid-70s.
Hurtful behavior is hurtful behavior. The fact that we didn't care to notice the impact on certain classes of victims until recently does not make the hurtful behavior appropriate.
In the midst of the #MeToo movement when many women are finally finding the courage to share the stories that are seared in their memories, it is offensive to deride as "suddenly remembered," the story of one woman - whose #MeToo moment happens to be with a man we like.
Far too many men (and - it appears-women) accepted misogynistic humor as perfectly fine and participated in it. That said, people change. Nothing I have heard suggests that this was a pervasive problem with Senator Franken, that he was intentionally engaging in offensive behavior, or that his offensive behavior continued after it was brought to his attention.
I'm not specifically interested in how he behaved as a comedian - but I AM interested in how he responds when confronted about engaging in bad behavior, even if it was similar to the bad behavior others routinely engaged in at the time. So far, his response is appropriate.
Both sides DO do it. Franken and Clinton are two examples on our side. What matters, from my perspective is how they respond when called on it.
ariadne0614
(1,747 posts)Rustynaerduwell
(665 posts)Thank you
C_U_L8R
(45,040 posts)Fuck. This. Shit. Indeed.
SJMULE
(193 posts)I was called out here on my description of Tweeden as a fox news insider with a curious sense of timing
FuzzyRabbit
(1,970 posts)But you forgot to mention a couple of things.
Senator Franken is one of the best known and most popular Democrats. And that there is an election in 2020. If Franken runs for reelection he will most likely win.
But he is extremely popular with Democrats in every state, and if he decided to run for president in 2020, he might very well be nominated (and win).
So the Republicans are using this incident from the USO tour to derail Franken and divide Democrats. And they are getting help from trolls, including our very own Russian trolls here on DU.
Of course, not every poster on DU who is upset with Franken is a troll. Most, I know, are feeling legitimately upset. Women are treated as prey all of their lives and this incident along with the publicity about Trump, Moore, and Weinstein's predatory histories is bringing back horrific memories.
But some are obviously trolls stirring the pot. Anything to disrupt the Democrats.
MadDAsHell
(2,067 posts)Otherwise youre forced to eat your own, and no party wants to do that, especially only a year out from the next election.
Id much rather be a hypocrite then a cannibal.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)Try watching it now.
Times change and comedians job is often to push boundaries.
Al is a lion in the Senate fighting harder than most for all the things we supposedly believe in.
I stand with Al
superpatriotman
(6,255 posts)Kick
secondwind
(16,903 posts)OceanChick
(83 posts)I've been gutted all day about Franken. I love him and was hoping he would run for president one day.
He was a fucking COMEDIAN on SNL!!! I bet there are hundreds of photos that could make every cast member look bad. It's show biz, people.
Moore was a DISTRICT ATTORNEY and JUDGE when we was molesting young girls and everyone in town knew he was a pedophile.
Cannot compare.
Please, Al, don't resign!
Bayard
(22,242 posts)tRump says he is scandalized by the photo of Al Franken on the USO tour. Still no mention of Roy Moore whatsoever.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)Maybe I'm wrong, but I seriously don't see Al being a horrible creep. People are a sum of their parts. Franken has been an incredible ally to women. Especially victims of sexual and domestic violence.
In 2009, Franken introduced a provision to the next years defense appropriations bill that banned federal funding for defense contractors who forced employees to mandatory binding arbitration in the case of rape, assault, wrongful imprisonment, harassment, and discrimination."
In 2011, he joined other Dem senators to introduce the Arbitration Fairness Act (he reintroduced the bill in 2015) to eliminate forced arbitration clauses in employment, consumer, and civil rights cases. Such clauses often apply to employees alleging workplace harassment.
In 2012, he supported the Violence Against Women Act, saying "The VAWA reauthorization bill is another step toward a more just society as Sheila [Wellstone] described it, Franken said. And I look forward to it becoming law.
October 2017 Franken pushed a bill to establish federal funding to train first responders and members of law enforcement in interviewing possible survivors of sexual assault.Franken sponsored the legislation after a former intern raped a 19-year-old university student, Abby Honold, who reached out to Frankens office to discuss the subject.
Jim Beard
(2,535 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)...I've been struggling with this all day. I loved Al Franken the comedian, and truly love Al Franken the Senator.
I was hesitant to make a similar (but much less eloquent) post this morning, and what little I did say was not well received.
At first I was upset with him, then as I thought about it I couldn't believe it was true. The photograph appeared, and to me it instantly looked like a prank. But then he issued the statement and apology, and thought maybe he did do this?
As I thought about it more, and looked closer at that photograph, I realized that what Franken was apologizing for was a stupid prank, nothing malicious. Who would be stupid enough grope a sleeping woman and have someone take a photograph of it with others around?
What really bothered me later in the day was the reaction of people, the instant condemnation, the "see Democrats do it too!", and the willingness of many to start vocalizing that all men are scumbags. That I truly resent and find offensive - I know many men who would not do anything like that and certainly anything like what Moore did. We are NOT all the same, not scumbags, not abusers or molesters.
The really bad thing now is that the republicans are jumping on this to get the attention away from Moore and trump. Even trump himself is now tweeting about it, like he's an angel.
Those are all the mixed emotions I've had all day, certainly not eloquent at all.
Thanks again for your post and putting the events of the day in proper perspective.
rainin
(3,011 posts)technotwit
(71 posts)Congrats to Ms Tweedon on her audition for a gig anchoring on Fox News!
dhill926
(16,391 posts)by FAR. Thank you for so eloquently and effectively stating this position...been a frustrating day around here....
vkkv
(3,384 posts)to the victim I'd say.
forgotmylogin
(7,540 posts)Put him on trial!
Response to forgotmylogin (Reply #209)
Post removed
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)vkkv
(3,384 posts)You don't see any difference, do you.. that's telling.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)the pussy grabbing president? difference between what?
vkkv
(3,384 posts)Thinking is hard..
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)Here, enjoy the USO show!
vkkv
(3,384 posts)Don't you think? I mean, really... ya think?
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)We're just doing what we came to do
Cause we're all weird people and we love it
Don't let them other suckers hate on you
Cause we're all weird people and we're shaking
From the basement to the roof
You know the people on the bus and the people on the street
People like you and the people like me
Weird people!
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)vkkv
(3,384 posts)actually perform in the nude, you know, like in the magazine! Oooo..
Cuz, that's what you just said that you expect from a former bunny.
forgotmylogin
(7,540 posts)I really dont appreciate your hostility. Youre attacking me and not what I said.
vkkv
(3,384 posts)Come on, just admit it.
And only a Fool would respond without giving their comment much thought - as you did =
forgotmylogin
(7,540 posts)That didn't take much thought either.
c-rational
(2,602 posts)elmac
(4,642 posts)tRump can take his little handed twitter posts and stick them up his ass.
Polly Hennessey
(6,817 posts)Exactly what I have been trying to say all day. You said it much more elegantly than my poor words ever could. We are such a pearl-clutching, eye-rolling culture. Conclusions do we jump too much - - yes, we do.
madamesilverspurs
(15,821 posts)My two cents: When he asked for the ethics investigation there was a slight whiff of "please proceed, governor" in the air.
This is going to be interesting to watch as it unfolds.
.
rock
(13,218 posts)Some people cannot discuss some subjects because they cannot make a reasoned response. They go off the deep end instead. Everything is black or white, they cannot see the gradient.
Glorfindel
(9,747 posts)Thank you, NanceGreggs, for saying exactly what I have been feeling but couldn't express with one-tenth your eloquence.
ornotna
(10,810 posts)K&R
idahoblue
(378 posts)triron
(22,031 posts)LenaBaby61
(6,979 posts)EVERY Democrat who is buying into that false equivalence is being played by the Republicans and they really should know better.
In the meantime, the Republicans are laughing their asses off at Democrats who think (wrongfully so) that if we sacrifice one of our own on the altar of tit-for-tat, we come across as fair and balanced.
njhoneybadger
(3,910 posts)NBachers
(17,191 posts)If trump resigns, then Al runs again in 2018 and is swept back into office.
fierywoman
(7,707 posts)pansypoo53219
(21,010 posts)THIS IS NOT BEING MALL BANNING! trying to point at a democrat.
jeez. is this 1st degree cosby?
betsuni
(25,815 posts)Silver Gaia
(4,552 posts)I've been saying these same things to my husband all day, and I have been a "card-carrying," bra-burning, outspoken feminist since I was around 14 years old (and that was a long-ass time ago!). I used to get suspended from school for being a GIRL who dared to speak out. So, THANK YOU for calling this steaming pile the shit it is.
Lifelong Protester
(8,421 posts)kimbutgar
(21,285 posts)And I am angry that Democratic Female Senators are jumping on the bandwagon to attack him.
The picture looks harmless and I think it was staged and she was pretending to be asleep.
marble falls
(57,540 posts)L. Coyote
(51,129 posts)and their new Nucking Futz in Alabama.
Doremus
(7,261 posts)I think the whole rotten thing is a setup by the repukes and this woman is a faithful foot soldier.
If anyone here is offended by my opinion, so be it. I'm a 62yo woman who's BTDT and I call bullshit when I see it.
Initech
(100,149 posts)And you can bet that this is going to be the dialogue for the next month or so. Both sides do it. Bullshit.
unhip white guy
(78 posts)This issue needs tissue. Toilet, that is. Slushy methane. Republican speech.
Greybnk48
(10,182 posts)SammyWinstonJack
(44,130 posts)lordsummerisle
(4,651 posts)for articulating what a lot of us have been mulling over all day...
OhioBlue
(5,126 posts)Remember when Dem leadership capitulated and threw the organization that registered and protected voters from low income neighborhoods under the bus?
This feels like that. Unless something else comes out about Franken other than a photo where he doesn't even appear to be touching her flack jacket comes out, we will be seen as weak capitulaters to the bully GOP and their false equivalency bull shit if we don't stand behind him.
How many times have we said we need to stop letting them control the narrative?
clementine613
(561 posts)... but the Honeymooners never depicted Alice and Trixie as an "easily-befuddled females whose only true passion was buying a new hat." For all of Ralph's bluster, it was very clear from the show that Alice was truly in charge of the household. She was the sensible, level-headed one.
IADEMO2004
(5,580 posts)LAS14
(13,792 posts)eissa
(4,238 posts)Ive been so upset today seeing how quickly many on the left are to throw one of the smartest and most progressive voices in the Senate under the bus. And for what - a fucking STAGED picture? If NOT touching a womans breasts is now assault then the word has lost all meaning.
Blue Owl
(50,596 posts)n/t
The Wizard
(12,556 posts)doing Republican skullduggery since he worked for Nixon. That he announced it before the complainant did is telling.
Franken was horsing around. Roy Moore on the other hand was and is a sexual predator, preying on teenagers. One committed an indictable offense and the other engaged in a joke in bad taste. There is no equivalence.
How does Stone avoid scrutiny? Maybe he has the pictures of Trump in a hot tub with teenage beauty pageant contestants or in a compromising position with an underage prostitute or having gay sex with a young boy. Time to grill Stone and Franken's accuser.
Take off the gloves Democrats, and beat the fucking shit out of these criminals.
BainsBane
(53,137 posts)That people make excuses for behavior in their own party and seize upon sexual harassment and child molestation only when it suits their purposes politically. Pretending its just about the photo is the exact same minimization the right engages with. It ignores the womans account and pretends that one picture is all that matters. http://www.kabc.com/2017/11/16/leeann-tweeden-on-senator-al-franken/ She was asleep during that photo. You think its funny for men to touch women and pretend to grope them without their consent while the sleep. Your amusement does not take precedence over other womens rights to control over their own bodies. You dont have the right to consent for her. Only she does.
Franken is accepting responsibility for his actions, and many Democratic lawmakers, including Klobuchar and DFL Chair Ken Martin, are taking it seriously. This site, however, is another story.
I think you know there is nothing unpopular about your position. It is in fact the dominant view in a society that devalues women, that treats them as liarsunless it suits their political agenda to do otherwise. Ive seen it countless times here before. Many, perhaps most, DUers refused to as much as acknowledge the existence of a valid arrest warrant for rape against Julian Assange because they admired him. I saw dozens of people insist Woody Allens daughter Dylan was lying about his molestation of her at 6 years old, insisting she was manipulated by Mia Farrow, a position that hinges on the assumption of women as inherently dishonest. That was a case of child molestation rather than assault or harassment of an adult woman, but because it served no political purpose to believe Dylan Farrow, she was vilified, just as the woman speaking about Franken is, just as many Republicans have done to Moores and Trumps accusers.
When people decide sexual assault only matters when its someone they dislike and excuse it when it is someone they admire, they ensure that the behavior continues. It most certainly does undermine women, and male victims as well. Whether you think Frankens treatment toward that woman was funny is utterly irrelevant. What matters is consent, and she didnt give it.
Clearly child molestation is worse than assault on an adult, and Moores serial predation makes his situation far more serious. What is the same in these two situations is the reactions of some of their supporters. It is they who display the same hypocrisy, who reveal that the rights of victims are irrelevant compared to their political agendas.
Franken has admitted his actions were wrong. He refuses to engage in the minimization and attacks on the victim that go on here. Yet some Democratic supporters seem determined to display just how much they have in common with defenders of Republicans facing allegations of assault. I am relieved that many Democrats in public life are responding to this matter with far more integrity.
Franken is my Senator. I volunteered on both of his campaigns. I have considered him one of the very best in the Senate, but I sure as hell and not going to act like his behavior was okay because I happen to agree with him politically. I couldnt look myself in the mirror if I did.
Straw Man
(6,628 posts)Last edited Fri Nov 17, 2017, 09:41 AM - Edit history (1)
In the picture, whether or not he is actually touching her, he is sexually humiliating a woman who had rebuffed his advances. She is pretty clearly asleep in the picture, and unless she is blatantly lying, she was unaware that the picture had been taken. It would be an easy lie to disprove, since there were other people present who could testify as to what actually happened. Furthermore, Franken's apology makes it clear that this was not just some joke that she was in on.
Of course this is a lesser transgression than those that Roy Moore is accused of. That doesn't mean that it's acceptable.
Phentex
(16,334 posts)Oneironaut
(5,547 posts)There has been a flurry of sexual assault apologia, victim blaming, slut shaming, and conspiracy theories against the victim in the picture. I'm not going to speak of the kissing event, as that was not proven, but the complete disregard and hostility towards the victim is sad. I truly do not believe that Liberals are on Feminists' side either half of the time - they seem to be outraged when a Republican does it, but when a Democrat does it, they circle the wagons to the point of absurdity. That makes me believe that they'll only support womens' rights when it's politically convenient.
I am personally not really angry at Franken. I'm more disgusted by the partisan reaction that our side had. Even Al Franken admitted what he did was wrong. The victim has already forgiven him. However, what he did is not okay, and I'm glad that he acknowledged it.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)I didnt believe Tweeden or at least think it may have been a misunderstanding.
When you have three or four accusers, it becomes more and more difficult to believe anyone saying that the accusations are fake or politically motivated.
This is the same standard I apply to anyone in terms of the multiple accusers no matter what party. I also am wary of an individual accusation. People who do this never seem to do it just once. And here we are. Multiple accusers.
DoctorJoJo
(1,134 posts)You can tell Franken's hands were hovering over and not touching her, and he was ON CAMERA. HTF is THAT groping? I think this right-wing Trump fan was getting her 15 minutes of fame and hopes it advances her not exactly successful career. It is absolute bull shit, which is what most everything is that these cretins spout, while they line their pockets to the detriment of all society.
Thank you, Nance!
JoJo
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)hay rick
(7,669 posts)Heartstrings
(7,349 posts)Maeve
(42,312 posts)karin_sj
(817 posts)And it's ludicrous that the republicans are trying to make this equivalent to what Roy Moore has done. It would be terrible if Al was kicked out of the Senate for this when we have a president that has done much worse and has never paid the price for it.
gopiscrap
(23,768 posts)karin_sj
(817 posts)Thanks for the welcome, gopiscrap! I'm actually a member from a long time ago. I was pretty active in the GW Bush years but pretty much totally dropped out when Obama was elected. I was constantly outraged and upset during the Bush era and so relieved when Obama got elected. I felt like I could relax and not be so obsessed with politics. Little did I know that GWB would be a walk in the park compared to what was to come.
Nance's post made me want to hit the Like button and make a comment, so I managed to find my old email address, get a new password and log in. Apparently, I'm starting at Post #1 again since it's been such a long time!
Anyway, it's good to be back and be an official part of DU again instead of just someone who checks the DU home page on a regular basis but doesn't get involved.
k8conant
(3,030 posts)NastyRiffraff
(12,448 posts)Thanks for articulating what I was thinking.
Fuck. This. Shit. Indeed.
Cary
(11,746 posts)I'm not going to jump to Al Franken's defense. He will survive this.
R B Garr
(17,019 posts)Excellent, Nance!
garybeck
(9,942 posts)Would you have written all that exactly the same way, casting doubt on the accuser and defending franken
If he were a Republican?
busterbrown
(8,515 posts)Most of us around here adhere to the truth!
treestar
(82,383 posts)In fact it is they who are hypocrites as they only make something of it when it's a Democrat. Once they voted for Donald of Orange, they forfeit all rights to criticize. It does not really matter to them. When they go on about Bill Clinton but say nothing about Newt Gringich. When they go on about marriage but vote for a thrice married adulterer, they are hypocrites.
We have a right to be bothered by this allegation. They don't.
TheFrenchRazor
(2,116 posts)BannonsLiver
(16,548 posts)And hours later its still pissing off gullible people! Its okay gullible people, weve all been there before.
Grown2Hate
(2,013 posts)the same thing as molesting a 14 year old girl in your mid thirties! (I HATE that this is necessary, but... )
moriah
(8,311 posts)Mr. Franken himself has taken the highest road possible, and I did notice she's saying she's satisfied and isn't wanting to testify -- despite him still disputing the rehearsal accusations.
Which tells me either she's extremely forgiving considering how outraged she seemed, or that she wasn't that outraged and knows she was exaggerating by calling it actual groping.
I'm still going to firmly disagree that the type of juvenile stunt this was is befitting of anyone older than junior high, comedian or not. Sleepover pranks got old by 8th grade. And they're lucky she hasn't my PTSD -- I wouldn't have been able to sleep in that situation at all, but it wouldn't matter if I had a full Kevlar bodysuit. If I was asleep soundly enough for someone to get that close to my tits, and I woke up to it, someone would be injured before I realized I wasn't being raped again.
procon
(15,805 posts)for the USO to entertain the troops. Franken was a comedian and a ham, and he wrote the skit they were doing. Leanne Tweedon was a sexy model for Hooters and Frederick's of Hollywood, and she did a nude spread in Playboy, and the was the eyecandy. She probably was rehearsing with Franken for their USO show, and it sounds like their act included the usual sexual innuendo and at least a mock kiss, and probably a whole lot of raunchy jokes and exaggerated slapstick routines that would appeal to the lusty humor of lonely young men in a war zone.
Jim Beard
(2,535 posts)dalton99a
(81,708 posts)democratisphere
(17,235 posts)Thank you for this!
BlueMTexpat
(15,374 posts)From your post ....
"I'v read here on DU and elsewhere, time and again, that we should judge people by their actions. Senator Frankens actions in terms of womens rights speak for themselves."
I stand with Al. There is NO comparability between this incident and ANYTHING Roy Moore has done!
LiberalLovinLug
(14,180 posts)I only wish the Democrats in Washington would have "the balls" (sorry) to respond the same way. This should be the exact prepared statement a Democratic spokesperson comes out with. They simply refuse to believe that they can stand up to these kinds of political attacks. Which is was for the most part(not completely, which is how they operate, find a sliver of something and blow it up) They come on air, on Fox News, and scream about such lewd behaviour, (like they have a leg to stand on) and demand Democrats respond by cowering and even resigning at times. Like Charlie Brown, they fall for it every time. And then the Republicans laugh their asses off because we have one less weapon, and they know that they'd never fall for the same thing. (ie Trump is President for fucks sake!).
lillypaddle
(9,581 posts)smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)This whole thing is bullshit! I stand with Al.
Cattledog
(5,923 posts)octoberlib
(14,971 posts)around on this story. Talk to some of the people on the USO tour. Her story stinks. Theres a reason she doesnt want it investigated.
bearssoapbox
(1,408 posts)The whole story stank of reTHUGliCON rot from the beginning.
I hope Franken gets the ethics inquiry so he can bring in witnesses to testify.
Hopefully under oath.
As if that would make a difference to the more rabid, right wing reTHUGliCONS.
ggmac0427
(38 posts)Thank You for this.
Nuffer
(40 posts)Totally agree !!!!!
kydo
(2,679 posts)Can't say the same for the rethugs and the doubling down on the support of their sexual predators.
There are many issues at play in all this.
The first is the victim. We must always believe the victim. Now after the victim tells their story and more information is known. If the story starts to unravel then we change our mind on believing. But we do have to is give the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. Forever the victim was generally discounted. Which makes it hard to come fourth when you don't think it will matter in the first place.
Then there is the accused. That's trickier. There are many different types of sexual assault and harassment. There is no one size fits all. Franken is not pedophile. Moore probably is.
Then there is how the accused responds. Franken, admitted, apologized and wants to be investigated. Moore flatly denies, and shames, and lashes out.
Because these two are in politics we will get all the dirty nonsense that comes with politics.
I am proud of Franken on how he has handled this. Taking the high road. He never said harsh and demeaning things about the victim or called this a witch hunt. The same can not be said of Moore.
Then there is that orange creature with tiny appendages. That thing is a sexual predator among many other vile things. But thinks he can call out Franken yet is silent on Moore. The hypocrisy is sickening!!
Raster
(20,998 posts)...from other matters at hand.
This HIT JOB is FALSE EQUIVALENCY out the ying-yang, and I am a bit amazed at all the "Franken resign" sleepers and sleazebots out-and-about in DU.
Demsrule86
(68,825 posts)It is a different thing to be goofing around on a plane...silly maybe but not in the category of Moore or the Hollywood guy. And today they are trashing Bill Clinton. We should not attack our own period. But some live for the ability to attack Democrats because they truly don't like Democrats when all is said and I done
gademocrat7
(10,688 posts)I applaud your commentary, Nance.
IUPACify
(19 posts)And a huge 'Hell yes!'
orangecrush
(19,666 posts)Bless you NanceGreggs
Gothmog
(145,965 posts)maddiemom
(5,106 posts)aka-chmeee
(1,132 posts)This false equivalency crap is causing fatigue.
MFM008
(19,837 posts)spot on.
aka-chmeee
(1,132 posts)lark
(23,199 posts)I'm with you 100% on this and I was previously a rape counselor and am one of the millions of women who say #METOO. That the charges against Franken are pure political in nature are obvious and that the rw did this to throw the media off the scent of Moore and drumpf is also obvious. Stone telegraphed this coming 24 hours in advance, so this wasn't just some decision to come forward but sa coordinated ploy to change the topic and make it "all sides do it". Other people that were there said the photo was staged and that he didn't actually grope her.
forgotmylogin
(7,540 posts)The fact that there is a photo proves hes not in any way deriving sexual gratification from it.
bagimin
(1,335 posts)well said.
marieo1
(1,402 posts)Oh, you are so right. It is refreshing to see someone talking good ole common sense!!! Thank You!!
paleotn
(18,015 posts)Wounded Bear
(58,793 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)snowybirdie
(5,252 posts)Ralph raising his fist to Alice and threatening to send her to the moon! Always good for a laugh
moda253
(615 posts)This was so spot fucking on that there really isn't anything more to be said.
Paladin
(28,287 posts)We're in a war against the imposition of a fascist takeover in this country---I see no point in sacrificing one of our very best foot soldiers. A censure from the Senate is more-than-adequate punishment for Franken---a lot more punishment than trump will ever receive for a lot worse sexual travesties.
louis c
(8,652 posts)Orsino
(37,428 posts)It's a snapshot, with neither situation nor outcome made crystalline.
While I can agree that the source and provenance of the story are a little suspicous, the kind of activity claimed really was infringing, and an apology would certainly be due not only the target, but also to onlookers whom Franke as a star influenced by whatever his actions were.
Both sides really do do it. That is about the only thing that's abundantly clear, whether or not a full report manages to exonerate Franken, and whether or not his resignation is called for. I'm on the fence on that last point, because we know so little about the situation and understand less...and yes, because as you say, Franken has been a force for good.
Because I still want so badly to believe in his good judgment, I'm really curius about what he does next.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)on the same public stage.
By the way, I though it was mentioned the woman wasn't asleep when the photo was taken- they were pretending to sleep as part of a skit for photos.
I found most annoying the major media used the 'asleep' words the RW 'propaganda medias used when they 'crafted" this smear around a USO tour 'photo'. Crafted attack it was by the same RW medias known for years for their business of smears for republican party only.
Nitram
(22,971 posts)bluestarone
(17,128 posts)AGREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Useless in FL
(329 posts)Your argument was very well developed and presented! I totally agree with you. Don't let the R's get away with presenting this false equivalency!
femmocrat
(28,394 posts)You wrote that so much better than I could. I agree with you.
The_Casual_Observer
(27,742 posts)Some fox news twit that made a living as a cock tease for years goes all anguished about some bullshit. Franken should have just blown that shitbird off.
Chakaconcarne
(2,482 posts)still_one
(92,528 posts)harassment, but because allegedly he was making fun of someone at the expense of a laugh. That's what a lot of comedians and entertainers do. While the alleged unwanted kiss could be construed as a form of harassment, I think more facts are needed before we can come to that conclusion, and at the minimum, we need to hear Al Franken's side.
The attempt by the right wing media and others to equate this with the activities of Moore, Weinstein, etc. is ridiculous.
Does that mean that someone who makes a distasteful joke or quip which involves a sexual connotation involving women, is an harasser?
I know for a fact some people consider the use of profanity a form of harassment.
Al Franken has apologized. I suspect there are quite a few people who have done a lot of stupid, immature things in their lives, that they would apologize for, but do NOT mean they are sexual harassers.
Just at movies like "Animal House", "Risky Business", "American Pie", "Hangover", etc. How should we characterize those who found parts of those movies humorous? Are they "potential sexual harassers"?
It would be interesting if people reflected on their behavior during the high school or college years what their take would be now?
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)Rainngirl
(243 posts)You've said it much better than I could. I'm sick of the false equivalence crap. Both sides will NEVER be equal in the bad behavior category.
niyad
(113,966 posts)lamp_shade
(14,853 posts)librechik
(30,678 posts)Thank you!
Meowmee
(5,164 posts)I think this is highly suspect. I dont find her to be credible either.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)Warning: coarse language. (This is not the "Retreat" video.) Robin Williams performs for the troops on December 15, 2003, at Camp Arifjan in Ahmadi, Kuwait. I videotaped this MWR event while off duty during my Army deployment as a cargo transfer truck driver in Iraq and Kuwait from June 2003 to September 2004. Robin's stand-up comedy routine was part of the USO's "Hope and Freedom Tour" which also featured pro-wrestler Kurt Angle and racecar driver Mike Wallace on that evening and, a few days later, actress Karri Turner from the TV show JAG, comedian (now senator) Al Franken role-playing as Saddam Hussein who was captured just a few days earlier, country-western singer Darryl Worley, and some of the Washington Redskins cheerleaders. Thanks for making us laugh, Robin. The stage at Camp Arifjan was located at 28°52'12.25"N 48°9'35.75"E just west of the water tower
Roben Williams
Al Franken and by the way there is a "kiss scene & more"
panader0
(25,816 posts)I'm pretty sure she didn't decide to do this all by herself.
Instead of furthering the agenda of women who were actually abused,
she is setting it back with these ridiculous claims.
Even Lindsey Graham agrees that no one would have a photo taken if real abuse was
occurring.
Pope George Ringo II
(1,896 posts)But I don't think it rises to the level of sexual harassment, in context. He's handling the fallout now like an adult and that's about all we can say until somebody provides more information. Like with Takei, I tend to take a lot more notice of somebody who can establish a pattern of abuse, and we haven't seen that yet.
Different Drummer
(7,681 posts)Jane Austin
(9,199 posts)He was clowning around.
Doesn't pass the good-taste test these days, but that all.
Jim Beard
(2,535 posts)As a man dressed as Robin Hood one Halloween said, "Bartender, wine and fresh P____ for me and my men".
PatrickforO
(14,605 posts)Lots of people are thinking the same way about this.
cliffordu
(30,994 posts)zentrum
(9,866 posts)(202) 224-5641
Misskittycat
(1,916 posts)They know that Dems will bend over backward to believe women who allege harassment. We were played, conned, scammed. There are so many facts and circumstances in this case that make it suspect, not the least of which is her making the rounds of news and talks shows dressed up in that phone "librarian" disguise - as well as her connections with right-wing media.
LisaL
(44,985 posts)So you could see it coming from mile away.
Brother Buzz
(36,507 posts)XRubicon
(2,213 posts)Eyeball_Kid
(7,440 posts)and deftly danced all the way through, in one piece.
Well done traversing the difficult cultural and "evangelical" (not necessarily religious) semantic traps ready to explode at any second.
You're right about the suspiciousness of Stone's prediction, and of Tweedon's misuse of a gag photo. But I suspect that Franken will get the last laugh here. He knew exactly what he was doing by requesting an ethics investigation. This will be interesting. Watch what he does.
NanceGreggs
(27,821 posts)... that Franken will get the last laugh.
"He knew exactly what he was doing by requesting an ethics investigation."
Yes, he certainly did.
aikoaiko
(34,186 posts)I'm not saying he needs to leave the Senator, but the claims are true that he was mockingly staging a groping picture while she was sleeping, that is not trivial.
NanceGreggs
(27,821 posts)... "it was sexual harassment" has become a common accusation to levy against those who tell jokes.