General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsPic of the "Kiss" in action.
This is the kiss that they were rehearsing.
https://www.mediaite.com/online/here-is-an-image-of-al-franken-kissing-leeann-tweeden-during-a-uso-show/
doc03
(35,454 posts)BannonsLiver
(16,548 posts)doc03
(35,454 posts)ProudMNDemocrat
(16,899 posts)Where is the assault? Ms. Tweeden does not appear to be a reluctant actor in this skit.
FBaggins
(26,793 posts)It's the one that he wanted to "rehearse" with her that was the complaint.
The photo appears to support her story - which was that on stage she turned away so that he could only kiss her cheek.
lindysalsagal
(20,795 posts)he's tilting her pelvis into him, not away.....and it's on stage in front of everyone....
If it were really unwanted, wouldn't there be more pics of her stomping off in tears or holding her stomach or pushing him away???
I know that if I had been surprised by a man, I would not have all that body contact and I'd have turned my head away and put an arm up in between us.....
Plus, the soldier behind is smiling, not laughing or shocked....
There is nothing in that photo that looks like he attacked her.
tblue37
(65,552 posts)get gross with her, and that she only agreed to the rehearsal because he kept pestering her that they needed to rehearse the kiss, so what happened on stage is irrelevant. She says the assault she claims occurred happened when no one else was around.
Now, I don't know whether to believe the gross forced tongue down the throat kiss story. If it happened as she describes, then bad on him. BUT he does not (as some in high dudgeon claim) admit to the gross kiss assault. In fact, he explicitly says he doesn't remember it that way, but that if she does, and if she felt that way during the rehearsal, then he accepts that she felt that way at the time and he is sorry to have done something that distressed her so.
It is the stupid, inappropriate frat-boyesque pretend groping photo that he has said he is disgusted with himself over and now realizes he should not have done. He's right--he shouldn't have pretended to grope her or had someone photograph it. If in fact it wasn't staged with her awake and willingly participating, then it is obnoxious and insulting, and he would have deserved a loud admonishment in front of everyone (i.e., brief in-the-moment public shaming) for it, but not forced resignation from the Senate years after the fact.
If he kissed her aggressively against her will, then he deserved a misdemeanor assault charge at the time, if she thought it worth pursuing, and a fine. If she was upset enough to push for it, he could have been arrested and made to spend a few hours or even, if late enough, the night in jail.
But even an unwanted kiss is not in the same ballpark as having one's genitals or breasts actually grabbed. It would count more as a clumsy, unwelcome pass, of the sort grown women know how to slap down. From what she says, she did just that--shoving him forcefully away from her and leaving him in her dust as she hurried away from him. He didn't pursue her after she pushed him away.
The ass-grabbing accusations against Daddy Bush raise similar issues. A pat on the butt, even if uninvited and unwelcome, is not in the same ballpark as a rough, aggressive butt cheek grab and squeeze, or an actual goosing. (Apparently he was grabbing and squeezing hard, not just patting.)
I have been subjected to all three types of unwanted butt touching in my life. The brief butt pat is obnoxious and annoying, in a "Back off, jackass!" sort of way, but I always felt in control of the situation, not threatened by it.
However, the rough grab and squeeze feels more like a real assault, like being abused the way being slapped hard in the face would feel like being abused. It is a violent assault. And the fact that it has a sexualized component makes it feel deliberately degrading as well, using one's gender as part of the insult, the same way calling a grown black man "Boy" is particularly insulting and would aggravate any other ugliness toward him.
Being roughly goosed is even worse the the aggressive grab and squeeze, because a hard goose is damned close to actual penetration, and it feels both violent and genuinely threatening, because its violation of personal boundaries goes even further than a rough grab and squeeze.
My point is that no one wants his or her personal boundaries violated, whether there is a sexual element or not, and such violations range from annoying and obnoxious, to gross, to somewhat aggressively abusive, to frightenly, threateningly abusive. It is unhelpful to conflate an obnoxious but relatively mild offense with a rough and threatening assault.
People aren't perfect, and considering how we are generally socialized, it often takes a while even for a well-meaning person to understand that certain behaviors are inappropriate, even if meant jokingly. What teaches them is the experience of having other people respond to their behavior in a way that reveals its inappropriateness, or observing how people respond to others' similar behavior.
As a comedian in a society where demeaning sexualized humor directed at women was the norm, it is unsurprising that any comedian might have made such jokes without realizing how offensive some would find them. As awareness grows and standards of behavior are modified to reflect more ethically advanced values that acknowledge the rights of previously devalued people, people of good will learn which behaviors that were once considered unexceptionable are now recognized as wholly unacceptable.
Obviously Louis C.K.'s habit of exposing himself and masturbating in front of unwilling women was never within acceptable norms, not even in the past, and not even in comedy. But pretend groping certainly would have been within the range of acceptable joking behavior within the context of professional comedy until fairly recently, so I just can't get that outraged, since he has sincerely apologized and publicly castigated himself in harsh terms for ever having thought it was OK.
RandySF
(59,812 posts)Denzil_DC
(7,290 posts)so he couldnt kiss me on the lips."
Seems legit.
Kingofalldems
(38,514 posts)Proves nothing.
Denzil_DC
(7,290 posts)I was agreeing with RandySF that this is what this photo seems to show.
What's your problem with that?
Kingofalldems
(38,514 posts)but in fact this is done all the time as no kiss is even planned.
Denzil_DC
(7,290 posts)From Tweeden's account of the rehearsal (Franken says he recalls it differently, but hasn't disputed it in detail), it sounds like the intention was to go for a gag by having Franken give her a sloppier comedy kiss, which didn't work out well.
Whether you believe Tweeden's account or not, this on-stage pic doesn't prove anything one way or the other. That's why I said, "Seems legit."
B2G
(9,766 posts)The incident she refers to was backstage when they were alone.
Glimmer of Hope
(5,823 posts)rzemanfl
(29,585 posts)Right? Stone, Hannity, Infowars, right-wing talk radio....
panader0
(25,816 posts)Kirk Lover
(3,608 posts)babylonsister
(171,111 posts)she's an attention ... seeker.
Kirk Lover
(3,608 posts)babylonsister
(171,111 posts)USALiberal
(10,877 posts)BannonsLiver
(16,548 posts)USALiberal
(10,877 posts)FBaggins
(26,793 posts)She isn't kissing him in this photo.
Note that the reporting of her story includes:
She said she performed the skit as written but turned her head away so Franken could not kiss her lips
It's pretty clear that this photo backs up that claim.
But hey... maybe the metadata of the image will say that it was really taken during the Civil War.
Response to Cattledog (Original post)
Glimmer of Hope This message was self-deleted by its author.
Calista241
(5,586 posts)and determine if the action is consensual or not. Maybe she was shocked that it happened. Maybe she didn't have time to think about what to do given the situation she's in.
They're not married, and there's no indication of any pre-existing or post-trip relationship between the two. I have no problem believing that this action by Franken is unwanted by Tweeden, the victim.
Franken has done good work in the Senate, but sexual assault should not be tolerated under any circumstances.
Kirk Lover
(3,608 posts)She said Al pestered her in the rehearsal to practice the kiss and she said yes to 'shut him up'. So she did consent...she then said Al took liberties with that kiss by it being wet and he tried tongue. So she knew the kiss was coming on stage...did you hear or read her story because your fist paragraph makes it seem like you didn't.
rzemanfl
(29,585 posts)Kirk Lover
(3,608 posts)But since you care about my weather situation and I must say I'm pretty flattered but it's about 50 degrees right now...not too bad. The landlord is pumping the heat...I'm not complaining..it's like I'm in Florida. Supposed to be an iffy weekend...some rain and very windy on Sunday. CAN YOU GUESS WHERE I'M FROM.
rzemanfl
(29,585 posts)Kirk Lover
(3,608 posts)accent which I don't have since I grew up near the border. But it's pronounced L O N G I S L A N D.
rzemanfl
(29,585 posts)Queens now.
Kirk Lover
(3,608 posts)Look your little Magnum PI moment is OVA. I see what you're getting at and quite frankly I don't give a fuck what you think I am or I'm not.
Actually it's pretty funny because you are reading and taking my original post wrong. So you just all sorts of WRONG on this one.
rzemanfl
(29,585 posts)St. Petersburg weather question. The rest have responded with crickets. The Lawn Giland thing did not help.
I will read your post again and BRB.
Kirk Lover
(3,608 posts)rzemanfl
(29,585 posts)Kirk Lover
(3,608 posts)because maybe you are right a little because OK I'm a troll on twitter and I troll tRump followers and it's like shooting fish in a barrel.
I can't help it as it's in my blood...my name is Pat Trolston.
rzemanfl
(29,585 posts)with itself, with considerable help from outside the country. DU is really a good place most of the time. It kept me sane after the 2004 election. Keep trolling the Trump tweeters.
Kirk Lover
(3,608 posts)I have been lurking here for quite awhile and I'm very glad to have found this place. The amount of information that is posted is invaluable.
I'll take DU any old day warts and all.
rzemanfl
(29,585 posts)Within minutes someone responded "Grayson Hugh?"
babylonsister
(171,111 posts)FBaggins
(26,793 posts)Commonly held by abusers everywhere. "She likes me!!!"
she said when it came time for the on stage kiss that she turned her head.
Which is just what you see in the photo above... unless you interpret it the way you interpret "consent".
Kirk Lover
(3,608 posts)FBaggins
(26,793 posts)There's no way the script called for forcing his tongue in her mouth "aggressively"
Her claimed response after the kiss makes more than clear that she didn't consider it anything close to what she "consented" to.
Here's a hint for future relationships. The woman gets to decided what she consented to. You can believe that she's lying, but you can't believe that the story that she tells, if true, constituted consent.
Kirk Lover
(3,608 posts)the kiss happened on stage she made sure to turn her head. Not really sure what you are 'arguing' with me about.
I'm not defending his use of tongue...if he did use it. I have no reason to doubt her except that I don't believe the picture story. She is calling it groping and was alerted to it by seeing the photo. That picture shows he's not groping...so if she's going by the picture because she was so sound asleep she didn't feel anything then the picture would exonerate him from him actually touching her.
The kiss I'm more apt to believe...could totally see that happening. But I also don't like that she's a birther. That also negates some of her credibility for me. Then throw in the Hannity and Fox connection and I just don't like it. I wish they weren't so dirty over there that I wouldn't have to think like this but this last election cycle has shown me just how far down they will go so no I wouldn't put something like this past them.
And oh yeah Roger Stone tipped off twitter about this dropping.
FBaggins
(26,793 posts)but you simply can't use the word "consent" when a woman claims sexual assault. It rings of "she wanted it" or "she asked for it". That it's in some way her fault.
A woman in that position (assuming the story is true otherwise) absolutely could say "ok" to get it over with and get away from a badgering assailant. That type of "ok" is really not consent. A woman being raped can say "oh baby - give it to me" to get it over with a quickly as possible. That doesn't make it in any way a consensual act (no... I'm not conflating Franken's alleged actions with rape). (Again... if her story is otherwise true), she clearly didn't want him to kiss her. Whatever level of "consent" she gave was forced on her.
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)This is from the show. She stated that, during the skit, she would turn her head for the kiss.
That's what this picture shows.
Next time, I suggest this:
Kirk Lover
(3,608 posts)incident.
rzemanfl
(29,585 posts)R B Garr
(17,019 posts)Do you think he actually ripped them off of someone? Or was it staged?
edit: the whole USO tour is a long-standing event in which women are offered up for "morale".
rzemanfl
(29,585 posts)pnwmom
(109,025 posts)Kingofalldems
(38,514 posts)which is on the cheek but made to look like a kiss on the lips.
Nevernose
(13,081 posts)Sometimes people just go for it.
Sometimes people play pranks.
Sometimes people tell the truth.
Sometimes people make shit up.
Kingofalldems
(38,514 posts)Kingofalldems
(38,514 posts)This is evidence of innocence IMO.