was smiling broadly as her picture was taken with Al. Now, I don't know about you, but I might not be wearing a big smile if someone was grabbing my butt. In fact, if I were a woman, I'd probably have a different look on my face. But, she was smiling. That kinda makes me wonder, you know.

Just because the fondler is someone famous/generally admirable doesn't make the emotional impact any less significant when it is done without consent.

Your comment is a milder version of the romance novel/soap opera rape fantasy: the rape that isn't really rape becuase the woman secretly desired it.

Maybe we think a smart, funny man is attractive. Just because someone feels this way about it does not mean it's a rape fantasy.

If we don't insist on some evidence, how do we protect innocent men?

for pictures, perhaps a hand sliding down across a hip as someone turns away, with traumatic events. That insultingly diminishes what happens to those who are genuinely abused.

I'm sure I had a smile on my face when my butt was grabbed by someone I considered a friend, in public, among mutual friends.

I can guarantee my response would have been similar had my senator, someone I admire, engaged in the same completely unexpected behavior.

Internally, I was wrestling with how to respond - is this really happening? do I make a scene? Do I tell others? I did not visibly react, nor did I tell anyone else for a few days.

Especially when it is someone you respect, or have a relationship with, your first reaction is not the same as it is with a stranger - with whom you don't have the added "I don't want it to be true/I can't believe this trusted person is doing this" reaction.

And that’s not even up for questioning, because he even admits to doing it for years.

I’m on the record here with many defenses of Franken, and can probably come up with a few more.

But bullshit like “she was smiling in the photo” or “she was a Playboy model” is almost always just that: bullshit.

I'm sick to death of victim blaming, in all of its forms.

We can disagree about whether Franken engaged in the behavior or, if he did engage in the behavior what the consequences should be, but denying it happened based on victim behavior (she was smiling, she didn't report for years, she reported anonymously), character assassination (she's a playboy model; she consented with others, she had sex with so many people), and trivializing the nature of the conduct (I'd have smiled and not complained later; what's a little butt patt) have no place in progressive discussions.

but a claim. How dare people call for the resignation of a senator elected by millions based on nothing more than that? That's extremely immoral and callous to the point of viciousness.

Those people all deserve have happen to them what they wish on others, to lose their own jobs after a coworker made a simple unsubstantiated claim. But first they should be shamed in public, of course, with people who know nothing and have nothing personal at stake but their honor badmouthing them as freely as their natures enjoyed.

Second - the shaming you are suggesting is heaped on victims who dare to come forward, and has been for the 4 decades I've been engaged in anti-rape work. It is just in the last month that the #MeToo movement has awakened the general population to the reality of how pervasive sexual abuse actually is - and people are finally starting to listen when women speak out

Because Franken has acknowledged he crossed the line and has apologized for it, it is offensive to continue to impugn the character or credibility of the women who have alleged he touched them without consent.

And finally, calling for the resignation of senators, or others, based on nothing more than claims is what we do all the time when the accusations are made against Republicans - and we ridicule them when they protest that the claims are just anonymous women engaging in political hit jobs.

out a degree of vicious extremism among a few very passionate people that degrades this forum.

Our rights stop where another's nose begins. Very simple. As simple a basic liberal moral code as can be expressed. It should go beyond saying that no gender gets free punches, no matter how much resentment is involved. One standard for all.

Of course, liberals are only the dominant orientation in the very diverse Democratic Party. But in any case, getting someone else to care, especially those prone to extremism, when punching feels so good is beyond each of us. We have to police our own behaviors.

here is his apology...

'I’ve met tens of thousands of people and taken thousands of photographs, often in crowded and chaotic situations. I’m a warm person; I hug people. I’ve learned from recent stories that in some of those encounters, I crossed a line for some women — and I know that any number is too many. Some women have found my greetings or embraces for a hug or photo inappropriate, and I respect their feelings about that. I’ve thought a lot in recent days about how that could happen, and recognize that I need to be much more careful and sensitive in these situations. I feel terribly that I’ve made some women feel badly and for that I am so sorry, and I want to make sure that never happens again

///////

crossed the line for SOME women

that statement does not admit fault, in fact it declares most women would find his actions acceptable (in a really nice way)

it simply acknowledges every woman has the right to her personal feelings

"I've learned from recent stories that in some of those encounters, I crossed the line for some women -- and I know that any number is too many."

I know from the conversation I had with the person with whom I had a nearly identical experience that he truly believed that fondling my butt was welcome.

When he offered a similar apology, he was not only acknowledging that I had a right to my personal feelings that the touching was unwelcome, but that he crossed the line in fondling my butt as part of an embrace. That line was crossed for me regardless of how I felt about it - irrespective of the fact that others might have welcomed it - it was an inappropriate gesture without first obtaining consent.

I'm not only listening to this accusation from the position of someone who was inappropriately touched in a nearly identical way - I'm listenting to his apology in the context of the apology made to me. I'm not seeing a difference.

thought they wanted him to?

that his reference to SOME women implies all of that?

if he was admitting to "grabbing" wouldn't that offend MOST women?

he supposedly squeezed her bottom, and she thought “my god what’s happening”? But look at her face closely, especially around her eyes, not a glimmer of surprise, not a hint of a frown. It just seems odd.

noticed anything amiss when pretty much the same thing happened to me - and I was among friends who ought to be better able to pick up a mood change than a camera. No more than one of those present knows even today - more than 27 years later - and only becuase I shared it approximately 18 months after the fact when it became relevant to whether he was an appropriate person for a task that his behavior would have precluded.

and I am sure your work with rape survivors colors your view also...afterall if you hear those horrid stories on a regular basis ,it would

I personally know rape victims who can not abide the presence of any man, not alone their touch but I try to not let that change how I feel about any touch

this discussion has me thinking about something I did YESTERDAY

my grandson's team won their bb tourney, after the game, in the parking lot I hugged one of his teammates while telling him how proud I was of his hard work ,dedication and success

could someone interpret that as "something bad"?

I guess somewhere their is someone that could ,so are we at the point where no interaction is possible because someone somewhere could FEEL it was wrong?

I hope not

Too bad. He's a very friendly guy. My wife has hugged him a couple of times. Me? I just shake his hand. I'm shy about hugging guys, generally, although there are exceptions.

I think most women who hug him don't mind doing that at all. Oh, well.

Might also be wise to have security cameras filming the whole thing.

That's my opinion.

That seems to be the most popular opinion.

He gave a personal view of what he observed.

I’m inclined to believe MM.

These publicity seeking women? Not so much.

The accusation from the women is that he did grab their butts.

And MM said exactly what you quoted, which in no way called them liars.

I think they’re liars, and I’m happy to say so.

and they still vote for Trump. I don't believe the women. Randi Rhodes said Al is the least sexual guy she knows.

I was describing what I observed and only what I observed. Now, I suppose he might have done that while I was watching, but I saw no sign of it, so I said I though it was "highly unlikely" that he did so.

I watched for perhaps 10 minutes, at most. I can only speak about what I personally saw and didn't see.

I described what I observed. Exactly what I observed. I was there.

“Most women?”

Not this woman.

Sick of this victim mentality we are apparently supposed to embrace. Maybe when I was in my 20s, but no effing way now. Uh uh. Nope.

I'm acknowledging the reality that DU and feminist/liberal circles are not the norm. Socialization hasn't changed that much since I was in my 20s - and it still takes intentional effort to overcome it.

Picture your self at a photo op with Franken at a publicity event leading up to the 2012 election - suddenly realizing that he'd grabbed your butt. Knowing what was at stake in the election (Trump/control of the senate) - would you really instantaneously lose the photo-op smile and make a scene - as MineralMan is suggesting every woman would have?

Not to mention that I'm pretty sure the woman in the photo is in the age range at which you suggested you might have acted differently.

Another might consider a butt fondling.

My stepdaughter is hyper sensitive to every gesture or movement that could be mistaken fo a threat. And since she's an angry and defensive person to begin with, if she took a photo and the celebrity casually did the "hip rest" with the hand that went behind the back, she would consider it a sexual gesture.

So, if someone isn't intending offense and acting in an otherwise socially acceptable and respectful manner, but the other person considers it harrassment or an assault, what should the judgement be?

Do we create intricate and careful rules of social interaction to ensure no one can touch another without assuming the other as a fragile personality,. How should we as a society handle adult interactions where personal attitudes concerning respect or aggressiveness can be in conflict?

If everyone has equal responsibility and rights, whose takes prescedence?

Haele

"If everyone has equal responsibility and rights, whose takes precedence? "

I described some events I witnessed. I made some comments about them, based on my own personal sense of what happened. That is all. You apparently have a different interpretation of what I observed. But you were not there. I was.

It is true that I am not a woman. But I know many women. I asked my wife how she would react to a deliberate butt grab in that situation. She said that everyone in the vicinity would know exactly how she felt about being violated in that way. No smile. Not a chance.

I bid you a goood evening.

Are you sure you weren't at the zoo?

Democratic Party DFL booth and a Green Party booth. That's typical of such events.

Thanks for sharing that anecdote. I love these slice-of-life entries here on DU - and yours in particular, Mineral Man. Never a dull moment.

Happy Holidays to you and yours!

that the man is innocent. How would he prove something didn't happen in this climate?

And said that he crossed a line.

I have read his statements. He is being accused of all manner of offenses for which he did not apologize. For many, expressing regret for how a woman felt and expressed regret for offensive humor makes him part of the problem, he is now lumped in with all men who have committed sexual assault. I don't see any evidence he is guilty of sexually assaulting anyone. He is innocent, in my view.

He absolutely should not be lumped in with those other men who are accused of infinitely more serious offenses.