the entire party should go down with Mike Pence in a blaze of glory.

and thus he neither has the right to nor the ability to change their laws standing over hundreds of years.

On the other hand, he is a citizen of the US and has an absolute right to criticize what is happening in his own country.

Specious argument by loser Carly Fiorina.

Unless we are citizens? I guess that will cut down on the discussion on DU....

can cause change to happen within. Unless the ruling family in Saudi Arabia has a reason to change, they won't. The occasional beheaded gay person in their country isn't causing them any harm. But a world wide electronics manufacturer refusing to do business with them? That might make them think.

Now we are told "change must come from within". How times change....

That's awesome. And in 500 years, maybe China and the Saudis will start actually start treating gay people as if they were human. So we have that to look forward to, which is nice.

For any reason. Got it.

...fallacy. Someone (Tim Cook) points out that this or that place is discriminating. And people say, "Why aren't you pointing out that these other places are also discriminating!?" Well, then are we saying that Tim Cook *cannot* criticize the Indiana policy unless he also criticizes EVERY country that has these discrimination polices where Apple does business? The implication is that the argument is made to shut the man up, to make him silent about protesting anything unless he protests everything. That doesn't seem right.

Yes. Apple has industry based in China, and China has polices against gays that should be protested. But Tim Cook wasn't in charge at the time the business opened factories in China and so he can't be blamed for it being in China currently. Nor is he a "King" who can just say "pull out we're moving until they change their policies!" He is CEO of the business, he is not the sole owner of it (i.e he could be thrown out of his job. Apple fired Steve Jobs, remember?).

And exactly what is the best way to change China's policies? Is it writing such letters in their newspapers? Maybe. Maybe not. Would they publish such a letter? China does have censorship. What we do know is that Tim Cook is openly gay, he's vocal about it, and he talks to Chinese leaders. He might be having a lot of influence. But he doesn't have that kind of influence in Indiana. So he's doing what any other American citizen has the right to do, protest with a letter in the newspaper.

This is an attempt to shut him up, not a real argument as to why he shouldn't have protested the Indiana law.

Apple gets blasted regularly on DU for their business practices in China. "slave factories", etc. But now Apple should not be critical of these countries. "change must come from within." Talk about a 180 degree turn....

IS within Apple's control.

Changing China's perception of gays is not. As simple as that.

So, no, changing working conditions is NOT under its control. China is not a free market in any respect. And I was talking about all rights in China, not just gays.

and provide benefits including workers' comp in its chinese factories by just paying extra to its supplier.

Changing the society and politics? Not so much

I didn't say that Apple should not be critical of China or any other country. I said that the assertion that Tim Cook should NOT criticize the Indiana law because it's hypocritical wasn't a valid argument.

Now, do you think it is? Do you think Tim Cook should never open his mouth about any anti-gay policies anywhere until and unless he does so in exactly the same way in China? If so, you're arguing that someone with some influence is going to remain silent about such laws in the U.S.

That sounds counter-productive to what we here on DU want, doesn't it? Which is influential people criticizing the law. We were pleased to see NASCAR and all those other conservative groups/companies criticize it, weren't we? Even if we'll continue to criticize them for not doing all we think they should.

I'm fine being critical of Apple about what Apple does wrong and demanding that Cook and the company work to change those things—in whatever country they do business. Also that Cook and the company make whatever efforts they can to improve human rights in those countries. But I'm totally against anyone trying to keep someone influential from NOT criticizing a bad law in the U.S. by using a logical fallacy. I would hope you feel the same.

Do you really agree that Tim Cook should not have criticized the Indiana law?

I get a little disgusted when corporations and the like start picking topics that are safe here but they don't mention anyplace else.

Sounds almost worth it.

I can't stand Fiorina, but people you personally dislike may still make valid points. It is somewhat hypocritical to roundly criticize laws which officially sanction discrimination in one country, but say nothing about much worse ones in another, especially if your business is critically involved in that country's economy.

What would happen if the most highly capitalized private corporation in the world threatened to pull out of China over its human rights abuses? The fact that such a move would likely destroy the company isn't a mitigating factor concerning the value of such a threat - it's an aggravating one. Apple could probably survive (with difficulty) the loss of the American market in its goods, but not the loss of its entire production structure, which relies on cheap labor in countries with severely restrictive official policies concerning human rights, including gays.

Never mind what the argument should, perhaps, mean for the customers of such a company.

one followed here in the US, homosexuality stopped being a crime in 1997, was removed from the list of mental illnesses in 2002 and they do include same sex information in AIDS educational materials now. No protection from discrimination under the law, but neither does the US, 29 States have no such protections, including Indiana which was attempting to expand discrimination in an American State.
Indiana was suggesting a regression in civil rights, China, such as they are, is seeing progress, such as it is.
It was the US as a nation that chose to open business with China, and it was not Tim Cook that put Apple there. I think he has a right to speak against atavistic legislation in his own damn country, even while being gay and doing business like every last business in this disloyal business nation.
I look forward to watching Carly spend a ton of her own cash to not be President like she's not a US Senator.

has been a key measure in a number of places.

a problem elsewhere when some here are trying to make the same problem worse?

Get your own house in order before you condemn the neighbors house. But you wouldn't understand that would you Carly? You have destroyed everything you touched haven't you?

We can play the same stupid misinformation/deflection game too Carly. Just stop it. You are a joke candidate.

follow her own advice? The subtext, of course, is that gay rights isn't important to her.

What color is she calling the kettle?

HP used to be a great company, until Carly arrived fresh from IBM, to destroy a culture of excellence, and lay off thousands of employees. She's an entitled elitist, who doesn't give a rat's ass about working families. All she cares about is money money money.

the difference is that the business she did was illegal, due to our sanctions against Iran.

.... a P.R. person or company working for her. Stupid comments like hers have no
up side but lots and lots of down side. WTF was she thinking?

Dear Carly,

Please run for POTUS!

love,
DU

from the link

I’ll be honest. I never saw much to like in Carly Fiorina. Her tenure at Hewlett Packard
was a disaster. By the time she was ousted in 2005 the company had lost half its value
— earning her a spot on CNBC’s list of the worst American CEOs of all time.

Saudi Arabia and China are both huge human rights abusers, far worse than Indiana. It is hypocritical to do business with Saudi Arabia and China. However, that doesn't make what is happening in Indiana right. That's like a thief pointing at a murderer and saying "What I'm doing isn't bad, because he's worse." In reality, there is plenty of wrong and hypocrisy to go around.

That's wealth redistribution I can get behind.

Is he running for office somewhere?

She is an idiot.

What a self-hating moron.

Fact: HP stock lost half its value during Fiorina’s tenure.

Fact: She's named among the top 20 Worst American CEO's of All Time

19. Carly Fiorina
A consummate self-promoter, Fiorina was busy pontificating on the lecture circuit and posing for magazine covers while her company floundered. She paid herself handsome bonuses and perks while laying off thousands of employees to cut costs. The merger Fiorina orchestrated with Compaq in 2002 was widely seen as a failure. She was ousted in 2005.

THE STAT: HP stock lost half its value during Fiorina’s tenure.

from your link.

BB

Carly made millions after gutting HP of half of it's value. This is after taking millions from Lucent where her complicity in fraudulent accounting and sales practices contributed to the loss of 97% if it's market value. Thousands lost their jobs and pensions, shareholders were ruined, and one of the premier research facilities in the world (Bell Laboratories) was gutted and sold to the French company, Alcatel.

That Carly Fiorina uses here purported success as a business executive in laughable. It is one thing to take business risk and get it wrong. That is excusable. It is quite another to commit fraud, destroy the company you lead, then walk away with millions in ill-gotten performance bonuses based on phony results.

new highs and robust growth

Guess which one?

Is your point that the most successful CEOs should brook no criticism? Yikes.

I have nothing much good to say about Fiorina, but the substance of her remarks is not proportional to her skills as a CEO.

I find the point valid. Powerful people have influence. It's a responsibility of power to use it in service of good.

including the recent discrimination laws against gays in various states, which is what in Fiorina's warped mind represents bigotry. A few days ago Cook announced that he plans to donate his wealth to charity.

"Cook said he plans to give away his fortune after paying for his 10-year-old nephew's college, according to Fortune magazine.

"You want to be the pebble in the pond that creates the ripple for change," Cook told the publication."

http://www.cnet.com/news/apples-tim-cook-plans-to-donate-his-wealth-to-charity/

A lot of HP folks become unemployed because of her decisions, while she made millions for selling out the company with the compaq deal. Thousands were laid off because of her actions.

Thankfully, I don't think she stands a chance

and to your point that powerful people can do good, I believe Tim Cook does try to do good. So does Bill Gates and Warren Buffet, and most likely Fiorina is involved in some charity that probably does good also, but her actions as CEO at the corporate level, plus her comments on what she would do if given political power, are not particularly charitable, thus I am not sure who is a hypocrite

...cast the first stone.

[The linked page didn't load, but that's OK: I don't need to see her face]

for any American corporation to do business with one communist country (China) but not another (Cuba). Which of course makes Fiorina just as much a hypocrite as Cook.

solve everything at once, 100%, or do nothing at all. No compromise.

Unless Cook said he is pulling out of Indiana and not selling any products in the State, there is no reason for him to pull out any other place. No hypocrisy at all.

Also Cook has every right to criticize laws that will hurt his business. This is part of his job. And I'm sure he considers risk/reward in all of this.

Carly is not making any sense whatsoever rather trying tp provide cover for Pence and her party's policies of hate and division.

A.k.a. concern trolling.

power? What's a failed CEO to do?

I don't hear her blathering about HP in Saudi Arabia.

Many businesses took far stronger action against Indiana than just writing an editorial and yet she calls out Cook because he is gay. What sort of politician runs around calling out private citizens individually for actions entire States and cities and Corporations have taken in regard to Indiana?
I find this to be a vicious sort of rhetoric on her part, even aside from the issues and particular persons. Political candidates should not be singling out individual citizens for speaking their minds on any issue. How is he her business? She's no CEO and has not been one for some time. It's really bullying behavior that is typical of her sort of snotbox snob.

May run for "president," after apparently running Hewlett-Packard into the ground, and losing the CA governorship to Brown.
As ever with the GOP, any old bollocks will do.

care of business here at home.

I bought an HP Pro laptop in 2011 and one week after the warranty ran out, the hard drive died. Then when I tried to contact the company about it, I got the runaround. I will never buy another HP again.

Don't like Carly or her politics, but she does have a point. Selective outrage for anything is bogus.

agreed framework for a possible nuclear deterrence deal with Iran? I mean since she apparently had no problem doing business with them...... I kid I kid I don't give 2 fucks about the thoughts of this has-been huckster clown in regards to anything.

Is a time honoured way of ensuring that there is no progress at all.

it should be free to discriminate against women in the United States?

The only possible good about that crazy way of thinking is that it might have prevented Carly from getting a job.