Right wing talk about "competition" and "free market" are lies.
.Kill and destroy competition if you can, is the truth


For those who do not know about the Tucker 48 here is the story

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tucker_48

"competition and free market"...all bullshit.

way back in the very early 20th century.

http://www.whokilledtheelectriccar.com/

Last edited Thu Apr 30, 2015, 09:34 PM - Edit history (2)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy

Some of the problems with Snell are:

1. 90% of all trips were NOT by rail, 90% of travel between cities were by rail, in cities the main means of transportation was by foot. People walked to their jobs, their schools, their churches and to the shops that they purchased things during and before WWII. The Majority of Adult Americans only had an automobile from 1954 onward.

2. Rural Streetcar lines peaked in 1918 and were going into a decline in the early 1920s BEFORE GM started any moves against Streetcars. Urban Streetcars actually expanded in the 1920s and 1930s (for example, Los Angles peak year for streetcar ridership was 1944).

3. The railroads NEVER had control over the Streetcar systems, they saw each others as rivals. Electricity producers were the companies that controlled the Streetcar systems NOT the steam locomotive railroads. This ended with the New Deal era laws breaking up the huge Electric monopolies and separating the Streetcar Systems from their previous owners.

4. National City was NOT purchased by GM till 1938, it was clearly purchased to convert smaller cities streetcars systems to buses, but had no effect on larger cities. GM Seems to have wanted to cash in on the move to buses as oppose to end streetcar systems. With the collapse of the inner urbans streetcars in the 1920s and 1930s, these smaller cities had become isolated and in need to expand services, and it was much cheaper to run buses on the then new paved highways, then to operate in private right of ways.

5. The Inner Urbans had run into the same problems in the 1920s, it was cheaper to run a bus line on roads maintained by the state, then a streetcar line that had to maintain its own right of way (and pay TAXES on that right of way).

6. Most riders of Streetcars in 1900-1930 time period were upper middle class Americans, working class and poor continued to walk. This was also the first group of Americans to embrace the Automobile, thus the Inner Urbans and Smaller Cities streetcar system were hit hard as more upper middle class Amerians embraced the Automobiles,

7. On the other hand, in larger cities, Streetcars provided cheaper transportation, for they were bigger then the buses of the time period, more reliable and faster. Thus larger Cities retain Streetcars till after WWII.

8. Randolph Hurst HATED Streetcars and attacked them everytime he could.

9. Upper Middle Class Americans in urban areas complained by the Traffic Jams, and blamed the Streetcars stopping every block for the slow flow of traffic. These complaints became worse in the 1930s and 1940s. New York City, do to pressure from Hurst and the Upper Middle Class started to replace streetcars with buses in 1936. NYC did this for the simple reason if the rails and wires were removed, they was nothing to remind drivers that transit vehicles operated on that same route. Auto Drivers then slowly realized the reason for the traffic jams was NOT the Streetcats but themselves.

Side note: Since the 1980s, every time a new streetcar system has been installed, ridership exceed expectation, but new exclusive bus systems have not. The reason for this is the concept of "Advertisement". Ad executive Advertising is more then buying air time of radio and television, it is more then billboards, it includes the box on the shelf. The same with rail. When people see rail and wire, they are reminded that Streetcars are on option for their use. They do NOT need to see a Streetcar to be reminded rail is an option, the overhead wire and rails are enough by themselves. With Buses you have the bus and what looks like another highway, nothing to remind someone that bus is an option unless you see the actual bus. Thus they is more "Advertising" for rail in the form of overhead wire and rails, then for buses. In the 1940s and 1950s this worked against streetcars, for traffic jams were blamed on those streetcars and the overhead wires and rails reminded drivers that streetcars used that road.

10. In the post WWII era, the US was going into a credit crunch. Truman wanted to reduce the size of the Military, switch back to a peace time economy AND no send the country back into a depression (Truman had lost his business in the 1921 Depression that followed WWI, thus he was going do everything he could to prevent another depression, including doing unpopular things, like keeping Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines in their service till the civilian market could absorb them, no massive release of military personnel as what happened in 1919 that lead to massive unemployment and the depression of 1921. Truman was also going to restrict access to credit to prevent inflation, thus in the late 1940s you could only get an 18 month car payment plan, anything longer was illegal. This shortage of Credit gave GM massive power, they had massive money from making 2 1/2 ton trucks during WWII (the most made vehicle during WWII, outproducing even the Jeep). GM also made planes and weapons. GM thus had massive funding, funding it was forbidden to use to sell cars, but could use to sell Busses. Thus a lot of conversion in the late 1940s, not because buses were seen as better, but GM could loan money out to buy the busses, but would not do so for Streetcars, and the Streetcar companies did not have the financing to do the same for their streetcars.

11, GM was also sneaky, known to provide free cars to county officials that then voted to replace streetcars with buses. Technically not a bribe, the car was a "gift" but the receiver of the Gift knew what was expected of him. From what can be determined GM did NOT like doing this, but was willing to do so if that was the price GM had to pay.

More on the GM Conspiracy and Snell's errors (this is an author who BELIEVES in the conspiracy, but rejects Snell's paper on it, in fact he makes the suggestion that Snell's paper can be viewed as a GM plot to destroy research in the conspiracy, but making the conspiracy bigger then it was, and then showing how the bigger conspiracy is not true. This destroys not only the larger false conspiracy but the smaller but true conspiracy that actually worked:

http://www.baycrossings.com/Archives/2003/03_April/paving_the_way_for_buses_the_great_gm_streetcar_conspiracy.htm

http://www.baycrossings.com/Archives/2003/04_May/paving_the_way_for_buses_the_great_gm_streetcar_conspiracy.htm

Just a comment that Snell did hit on a conspiracy, but then fell into the trap of making it larger then it was, and by doing so made the larger conspiracy so easy to be destroyed that it takes the real, but smaller conspiracy with it,

Another paper on GM and its plot against Streetcars:

http://www.intransitionmag.org/archive_stories/streetcar_scandal.aspx

http://www.rutgerslawreview.com/wp-content/uploads/archive/commentaries/2013/Biglin_StreetcarDilemma.pdf

From the Wikipedia site referenced--



I remember my parents and I took one of the last rides on the Red Line that ran from Long Beach to Los Angeles. When we learned the route was to be discontinued, we saw a bit of LA history fading.

I remember we boarded the trolley in downtown Long Beach and arrived near Union Station where we spent the day walking around that part of LA and sightseeing. We even spent some time on Olvera Street, checking out the offerings of the vendors.

Years later, the line was reincarnated as the "Blue Line" but I had long moved away from that part of Southern California and never had the opportunity to ride it.

But cruising from LB to LA on the Red Line was a great way to avoid traffic while taking in the sights of metro LA.

Last edited Fri May 1, 2015, 02:40 PM - Edit history (1)

The reason it survived was it traveled on its own right of way EXCEPT in downtown Pittsburgh and in my home neighborhood of Beechview (And the suburb of Mt Lebanon). Buses took two to three times longer then the Streetcars, because the Streetcar avoided the main roads and had its own tunnel into downtown Pittsburgh.

I ended up going to high school, college and law school via the streetcars (Technically I road PCC cars to High School and College and LRVs to Law School). These came often (every few minutes) and stated to run at 5:00 AM and ran to Midnight. These cars were always packed. 9% of the people who work in Downtown Pittsburgh, go to work on these Streetcar lines. Proposals as early as 1945 was convert these lines to Buses, but given that they ran almost exclusively on their own right of way, no one could figure out how to do that WITHOUT DOUBLING TRAVEL TIME. Thus they survived till being converted to LRVs in the early 1980s.

Pittsburgh present LRV line consists of three interconnected lines. The oldest of the three started out as an narrow gauge railway in 1869 between the Mt Washington Neighborhood of Pittsburgh and then coal patch of Castle Shannon. It hauled coal between the two areas, then push the coal through a tunnel that was a converted coal mine to a Incline plane. The incline plane consisted of two cars that were connected by a wire rope. The plane was run by gravity, for the coal was dumped into the plane, then allowed to go downhill to waiting rail cars, while the other car was brought up to be dump with then next load of coal.

Like all trains in Pennsylvania of that time period (late 1800s), they had to provide passenger service. At first the passengers also travel through that tunnel, but it was a clear health hazard given the nature of the coal burning engines being used AND no fans to clear out the tunnel. In 1890, the Railway built two new Steam powered (later electric driven) "Inclines". The first was parallel to the gravity feed one, but it went pass the tunnel to the top of Mt Washington. This one lasted till 1964. This Incline could take vehicles, mostly horse drawn wagons but also cars and trucks:







http://www.brooklineconnection.com/history/Facts/Inclines.html#castleshannon

On the top of the Incline, you crossed the street and took what in Pittsburgh was called an Incline, was a cable car, this was a passenger only cable car. This was built in 1892, but closed down in 1914 do to lack of business, for the Streetcar tunnel had been finished in 1905 provided a faster and more efficient link to downtown Pittsburgh.



http://brooklineconnection.com/history/Facts/Inclines.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Shannon_South_Incline

The right of ways of both inclines survives to this day for the community of Mt Washington had been built around them.

In 1905, the political boss of Pittsburgh had purchased most of what is know the Pittsburgh Community of Beechview, he then built a tunnel under MT Washington that could take Streetcars, and three bridges to get that line to Beechview. He also purchased the old narrow gauge railway and converted it to Pennsylvania 5 foot gauge and ran his streetcars on it (He also closed down the old tunnel/Converted coal mine and within ten years the Castle Shannon South AND the Gravity inclines) . He ran the Castle Shannon streetcars through his new streetcar tunnel (The difference is about 500 feet, but the Streetcar tunnel opened up at street level, the older converted coal mine tunnel had opened up well above that level).

The reason the Owner of the Streetcar line took over old Narrow gauge railway is unclear, but it is the time period of the expansion of the Wabash system, which was trying to enter the Pittsburgh market, that in 1900 was controlled by the PEnnsylvania Railway and its then owned subsidy the B&O railway. Reading about that boss, he figure out to way to make money off both sides for the Narrow Gauge Railway went up the same narrow valley the Wabash railway was going to use (did ended up did use). The lines divert right after Castle Shannon.

On the Monongahela River, the communities wanted an alternative to the rail lines running along the Monongahela river to downtown Pittsburgh. Thus they extended they streetcar line in the direction of Castle Shannon. This was through a different valley then what the Wabash was using (these groups seems to have favored the Wabash for they had become Anti-Pennsylvania Railroad by that date). At first, when this line from the Monongahela river first reached Castle Shannon, it divided to Mt Lebanon and the then new Beechview line,. By 1910 it has shifted to what was known as the "Valley Line" the old narrow gauge railway, for it was more direct, did not go on any road, and designed for faster movement (Through one track till converted to LRV in the 1990s).

Thus you had exclusive right of way on these two lines. A third line was later added to the Valley line reaching Washington PA, the County seat of the Washington County Pa, the County SOUTH of Allegheny County which is the county the City of Pittsburgh is in,

In the early 1950s, Pennsylvania decided to built a new highway between Washington PA and Pittsburgh, In Allegheny County it was decided to stay within the area of the existing two lane highway, but in Washington County they decided to built on a new right of way, the problem was it was the rights of way used by the Washington Streetcar line. Pittsburgh Railway, the private company that ran the Pittsburgh Streetcar line in the 1950s, agree to sell to Pennsylvania the Right of way, provided it could abandon not only the Streetcar to Washington PA but to the Monongahela River Communities. This was agreed to and the two streetcar lines from that date forward stopped at the Allegheny County Border (and this is also where the modern LRV line ends).

The Beechview line had stopped going to Castle Shannon in the 1910s, but a connecting line between it and the other two lines remain and remain to this day. It was rarely used prior to the conversion to an LRV system in the early 1980s, but it existed. When the LRV system was adopted it was decided it would cost to much to update the Valley Line so it was decided to leave it as it was and run old PCC cars on it, while the new LRV would via Beechview. This lasted just a few years, for the bridges on the Valley line where showing their age. These were old timber bridges, any bad timbers had been replaced since built in 1869, but the structure had remained one of rough cut timber. From what I have gathered these old bridges were NOT a problem, but in 1939 PEnnsylvania had built a four lane highway in the same valley and had built a bridge over that highway for the Streetcars, but that bridge was NOT up to the standards of the old timber bridges and by the late 1980s could no longer handle even the then aging PCC cars. Thus the valley line was closed down.

About ten years later, funding was found to update the Valley line with new Concrete bridges and to double track that line. Thus today we are finally back to where we were in 1980 (AND 1910), three interconnected lines. These are all double track now but when they were single track, it was noted that it as faster to take the Streetcars on any of these lines AND still beat someone in a car to Downtown Pittsburgh. People complain about the "Average speed" being only 13 mph, but that is faster then the four lane highway these lines bypass (You can travel on those roads at 60 mph, but then you have to wait at red lights going Zero Miles per hour, average is thus much less then 60 mph).


Here is a short paper on the history of what is called the "Valley Line" Streetcar line:

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/master/pnp/habshaer/pa/pa3400/pa3483/data/pa3483data.pdf

Last edited Mon May 4, 2015, 12:45 PM - Edit history (5)

For example the following statistics:

In 1934 25% of the workers in Allegheny county outside of the City of Pittsburgh were driving to work, 20% were taking the streetcar or bus.

Great stat, but it is ignoring the following:

1. in 1934 2/3rd to 3/4ers of the people of Allegheny County lived in the City of Pittsburgh. Thus 25 % (people driving outside of Pittsburgh) of 25% (% of ALL people outside the city of Pittsburgh) were driving to work, i.e. only 6.5% of the population of Allegheny county were both living outside the City of Pittsburgh and driving to work. In the City of Pittsburgh itself, walking to work was being done by 60-75% of the population, most of the rest by streetcars (Buses were NOT that large in numbers in the 1930s in Pittsburgh), with a tiny percentage driving.

2. 55% of all workers outside the City of Pittsburgh were WALKING to work. This included most of the steel workers in the Monongahela Valley, other workers in the various mill towns along all three rivers AND Coal Miners in the Various Coal Mines in Allegheny County in 1934.

Just a comment about watching statistics. Remember the old saying: There are three types of lies, "Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics".

One day we will watch corporate facistic games instead the sports we now watch.

After that though, they will come for us.

tactics like we live with now. Genetic breeding of slaves will be the planet's future--should it survive the narcissistic PTBs.

Tesla cars ain't cheap.

and their new model is coming out.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/04/29/new-tesla-battery-could-end-electricity-bills

http://www.teslamotors.com/modelx

this is what scare them all.........

GM almost had me with the Cadillac ELR, but they priced that hybrid in the same stratosphere as the Tesla Model S. Real men of genius.

I also considered the new 2016 Volt because it looks great and is improved but this shady lobbying against Tesla goes beyond the pale.

but - over 100k's - dream on.

It requires an investment in time and energy to have to compete with something else. Tesla won't want it either if they're successful enough.

Competition is at the same time both productive, and destructive. It, as always, just depends on your particular perspective.

It's a poor man's Tesla, I've driven both.

I could afford the Volt and it's not dependent, totally, on electricity but most days it burns no gasoline whatsoever.




ZOOOOOOOOOM!!!!

Competition is the American way, motherfuckers.

...but not legislators. Guess I know where we rank in all this.

GM has been a destroyer of innovation for 90 years....

No apologies here. I'm a big fan of local car dealerships. They provide LOCAL jobs. Pay LOCAL taxes. What is Tesla going to do for my, and other local economies? And given the prices of a Tesla, they are just a rich person's toy. And no, I don't work for, nor have any loved one who works for a local dealer.

They're the most technologically advanced automobile on the market.

But I get where you're coming from. Hopefully GM's Bolt will be a decent product when it finally is released.

Upper middle class Americans were behind the embracing of electric Streetcars in the 1890s (and the the abandonment of that "toy" for the Automobile after 1918 which in turn lead to the decline in Public Transportation as a whole after 1918).

The Upper Middle Class then embraced the Automobile in the 1920s (as did farmers, who had extra cash do to the high prices for grain caused by WWI, and later when Europe refused to buy Wheat from Communist Russia, this ended when Stalin decided to dump wheat of the World's Market in 1927, lead to famine in Russia and a huge drop in income in Rural America starting in 1927, then the dust bowl hit).

Side note: The Bicycle was another "Rich Man's Toy" of the 1880s and 1890s. Most people could NOT afford the bicycles of the time period, you had to be willing to spend something like what we spend on a automobile to day. Prices quickly fell, but they were still high when Streetcars and later Automobiles came into play. It is only after about 1920 that Bicycles came to be seen as Transportation for Children, as the price to make them dropped as the cost of High Tension Steel dropped after 1900. Thus roughly in a period of 40 years, bicycles went from "Rich Man's Toy" to "Children's toy" as the technology changed and the price to make one dropped.

Anyway, Upper Middle Class Urban dwellers where the main buyers of automobiles in the 1920s (competing with then rich Farmers for that title). Such cars were NOT needed, most lived within walking distance of their place of employment, thus was a 'toy" for it was luxury NOT a necessity.

It is only with the movement out to the suburbs (starting to a degree in the 1920s in regards to Auto Suburbs, but Streetcars Suburbs had existed since the 1890s) did a Automobile stop being a "toy" but became a necessity (And this took a while, most older Auto Suburbs were built off of even older Streetcar Suburbs so that if the car was in the shop, the auto driver could still get to work by taking the streetcar or bus in the 1940s and 1950s).

Thus Tesla meets the definition of a "Rich man's Toy" for like the Streetcar in the 1890s and the Automobiles in the 1920s, it is a Luxury that most people can NOT afford but Upper Middle Class Americans can to show they are sophisticated and up to date. You see this in regards to Radios in the 1920s and Televisions in the late 1940s. Just because working class people embraced them later does NOT meant they were NOT "Rich Man's Toys" when the first came out.

Please note, I mention the above "Rich Man's Toys" for we have them to this day and they used even by people on welfare. Other "Rich Man's Toys" have a tendency to die out and be forgotten (Flying cars, Amphibious Cars, are two such forgotten "Rich Man's Toys" that are so forgotten they come back ever 10 to 15 years, to be forgotten again).

Other "Rich Man's Toys" that later became lower cost every day items, include Microwaves Ovens, LED Watches, Home Computers, Lap Tops Computers and today''s "Smart Phones&quot . The rich tend to buy these things early when they are status symbols (Beepers were such a symbol in the 1970s till the 1990s when Cell Phone Replaced them).

Right now Tesla is a "Rich Man's Toy". Tesla MAY cease being one, but it may also be like the Beeper, a "Rich Man's Toy" that is sidelined by society going in a different direction. Time will tell. My problem with the Technology is that it is no way a "flexible" as the Gasoline engine in that a gasoline engine just has to be refilled, not recharged. Tesla is working on that problem, but can Tesla do so AND get the cost of the Tesla lower then it is at present? Notice Tesla has to do BOTH for Tesla to be anything but a "Rich Man's Toy" and it is being able to do BOTH is main problem Tesla being anything but a "Rich Man's Toy".

When you walk into a tesla dealership they do have employees, and I doubt many of them commute a few thousand milea from California to go to work everyday

GM also fought against seat belts, turn signals, and bumpers that could withstand low speed impact.

I am done with GM products.

Despite what Hollywood portrayed, GM did not kill Tucker, Preston Tucker just didn't have the necessary capital to start a viable car company. It takes an enormous amount to start up a auto company because the upfront coasts of engineering, design and manufacturing are so high before even one car is sold. Henry J Kaiser lasted a few years, but even someone like that couldn't pull it off. Neither could John DeLorean. One of Tucker's and DeLorean's major problems was that the break even cost of the car was well above the projected market pricing.

The real shame was that Tucker swindled thousands of people by taking deposits from potential customers and dealers while never delivering cars. If that wasn't enough, when he knew he was needing cash to keep it afloat, he then took deposits for floor mats, radios and other accessories from customers who were still waiting for their cars and never got them. Not quite as romantic as Jeff Bridges........

The group lobbying against Tesla having direct sales is the car dealer lobby, not GM

...of fighting progress. As has been mentioned, they fought 'tooth and nail' with Ralph Nader over something as simple as 'consumer safety'. Not to mention that battles Nader fought for worker safety.

And let's not forget the personal war waged against John DeLorean and the cost-saving and eco friendly innovations he introduced with the DeLorean automobile. You realize how sleazy they are with their attempt to frame JD for 'cocaine' trafficking.

He pissed them off initially with his book On A Clear Day You Can See General Motors. Still on my top ten list.


.