In Saudi Arabia, there would have been rows of machine gunners to greet them. Egypt, too. ISIS controlled areas would have made people with sword-sharpening shops, if there is such a thing, into millionaires.

Tel Aviv is the only place in that region where anyone with a survival instinct would dare even planning a Gay Pride Parade, let alone staging one!

It's the only country in the entire region that this could happen.

Israel has a lot of faults, but it is the most progressive country in that region of the world, bar none.

And if you point out the LGBT friendliness of Israel you're quickly called a "pinkwasher." (Which utilizes a form of logical contortion I can't even explain it.)

Don't tell me that dates from the pink triangles............? That would be some kind of ugly.

Basically they say that because liberals support Israel's gay rights record, that means that they also support and use that as a justification for Israel's excessive use of force in Gaza, etc.

This is a non-starter, though. Pinkwashing Israel is a false dilemma.

The only reason ANYONE brings up Israel's policies towards gays is to argue that the Occupation, the settlements, Gaza and the rest are "no biggie". Nobody references that for any progressive or pro-peace reasons. And really, it doesn't matter.
It's nice that Israel doesn't oppress gays(at the moment, although we all know that will change once the extreme right-wing has run the country for a few years longer and those governments inevitably decide that looking gay-friendly no longer serves their long-term policy interests.)

I don't think anybody, even single-state supporters, are actually arguing that there's nothing positive at all about Israel as a country. What is being pointed out, justly and correctly, that if this country is going to argue that it needs to exist in its current form in the name of protecting one group from persecution and oppression, than the country takes on a particular obligation NEVER to persecute or oppress anybody else.

I say that about Israel just as I've always said it about the United States-and it's equally legitimate to call upon both countries to be exemplary on the question of oppression.

And I predicted that there would be accusations of pinkwashing.

Which you are literally doing to me.

Thanks for the clarification.

...liberals can be against Israel's excessive use of force in Gaza / West Bank and for LGBT rights in Israel.

Google hits for "pinkwashing israel" are of course at your own discretion, lots of people making really contorted arguments to dismiss LGBT.

That's not the point.

And nobody is dismissing LGBTQ rights-just pointing out that making a big deal of it re:Israel isn't totally about helping gays-often it's about making an argument(the opposite of the one you outlined in that post)that Israel's relatively gay-friendly culture somehow means the Occupation doesn't matter.

It's mainly people who want to dismiss the importance of self-determination for Palestinians that make a big deal about bragging about how wonderful Israel supposedly is towards gays-and it's also about trying to get the LGBTQ community in the states to take Israel's "side" in the I/P dispute.

LGBTQ rights are crucial overall...but so is ending the Occupation.

He has thrown people out of his townhalls for that nonsense.

Netanyahu calls it an occupation, for God's sakes.

You can't seriously argue that the perpetual troop presence and the collective punishment of all Palestinians for the crimes of a violent few could ever be justified? Or that the settlements are in any way defensible? David Ben-Gurion always spoke out against the idea of settling the West Bank-that doing that would make peace impossible. Can you really dispute the fact that he's been proven right?

But there's no way he can truly think the IDF presence in the West Bank is legitimate and defensible.

(btw, a few more right-wing governments and all the gay-friendly aspects of that country will be gone, since all right-wingers are anti-gay) is that that is used to imply that it doesn't matter that the Palestinians are oppressed by the West Bank Occupation and the Siege of Gaza.

The only reason any "pro-Israel" people bring up the LGBTQ issue is to argue that the Occupation doesn't matter.

Liberalism towards one group doesn't excuse the persecution of another group.

And I seriously doubt that Bernie favors giving Israel a total pass on the Occupation and the question of the illegal West Bank settlements...especially since Israel is only going to have extreme right-wing governments from here on in now(as the last election proves).

I favor a two-state solution, but the Israeli government doesn't. That SHOULD bother you.

I can support Israel's gay policies, and I can be critical of Israel's over use of force in defending itself.

A position I don't think is controversial that Sanders holds.

That is not the "only" reason that "pro-Israel" people "bring up the LGBTQ issue." That's the pinkwashing argument, which is on its face absolutely absurd.

Sanders opposed the 1967 borders and I can't say that they are realistic in any way, shape, or form, with how Israel has chopped up the west bank. Right or wrong the boundaries are really messed up now and it is quite complicated to fix it.

In actuality, it is a way for people to dismiss LGBT people and something positive about Israel. Whereas those making accusations of "pinkwashing", are actually projecting their own issues, which is that nothing Israel does is positive nor worth acknowledging or celebrating. For them, it is simply a way to dismiss GLBT people and rework the conversation to the evils of Israel, usually the occupation.

It's just that a lot of us recognize that the main issue those policies are brought up by groups like AIPAC and by the Netanyahu regime itself is as a distraction from other things.

The "gay-friendly" policies get brought up by many "pro-Israel" people(and if this isn't why you bring them up, then assume I'm not talking about you) is to make the argument that Israeli liberalism on LGBTQ issues means that what is done to Palestinians doesn't matter. The implicit argument that draws objections from many progressives and many anti-imperialist people is that because Israel is gay-friendly(at the moment, and don't assume this won't change if the country keeps electing extreme right-wingn governments as it's almost certainly going to continue to do for the next few decades) that it should be given a pass on the Occupation, the settlements and the misery inflicted on the people of Gaza. If you yourself don't believe that Netanyahu and his band of thugs should get such a pass, more power to you and you have my deepest respect) but please don't be naive about the motivations of most of those who do keep referencing this.

And truly, I'm glad they have those policies...but let's face it, those policies aren't brought up by people who actually cares about gays. Do you really think AIPAC gives a crap about you? Or that anybody on the Israeli right-wing has ever truly been on your side?

The other thing that bothers a lot of people of good will is the idea Israel is somehow in competition with the surrounding Arab countries(countries whose regimes most of us have little or no fondness for, btw-it's just that there' s nothing we can do about them, just as there was nothing Americans could do, during the 1949-1989 era, to make anything better for anybody in the supposedly "Communist" countries-those regimes were actually right-wing nationalist states, in practice, and the Left bares no responsibility for them)and that people need to "choose sides" between Israel and those other states. But there's never actually been a need for that at all. Those states are mostly horror shows-but "supporting Israel" has never done anything whatsoever to encourage any pro-democracy, pro-human rights or pro-LGBTQ movements within them. And in terms of the position somebody takes on the West Bank Occupation, it doesn't matter whether Israel is more democratic or more liberal than any of the surrounding Arab states, because we have seen, for nearly forty-seven years now, that the Occupation has never assisted, and never can assist, the cause of democracy among Palestinians, and that Palestinians are not less-oppressed because the military that swaggers through the streets of the West Bank happens not to be Arab.


Israel has some good things about it-few people actually argue that the country has no redeeming values(those who do should be condemned and I do condemn them). But none of those good things depend on keeping the IDF in the West Bank, OR on perpetual settlement expansion, or on perpetual collective punishment of all Palestinians for the acts of a violent few. And neither does the currently gay-friendly character of Israeli society.

The best way to make sure that Israel remains gay-friendly is to make the country less militarized and less "security"-obsessed. The best way to do that is to actually make a serious effort to end the conflict with the Palestinians, to reduce the tensions between Israel and rank-and-file Palestinians by ceasing to punish them for the acts of their so-called leaders, and to ease the repression Palestinians have to live under while that conflict continues. So in that sense ,the issues are related, because you have to be against oppressing anybody to truly be against the oppression your own community faces. We all have to. No one can climb to freedom by pushing somebody else down.

Here's to a LGBTQ-friendly and totally oppression-free world. Here's to a truly secure Israel, which can only be made possible by ending the status quo in the West Bank.

This thread is about a gay pride rally and yet it has been turned into "Israel is all about the occupation." I won't be told how I should feel or what I know in regards to LGBT issue. I refused to be patronized.

It's not important. They have rallies like that all over the world.

It means nothing more that such a rally happens in Tel Aviv than it does when they have one in San Francisco, Montreal, Paris, or London.

At this point, they don't have them in Arab countries(and we all need to stand in solidarity with LGBTQ people in Arab/Muslim countries and Putin's Russia and anywhere else LGBTQ people face persecution), but that's besides the point. Chanting "Israel is better! Israel is better!" is a waste of time and doesn't help LGBTQ people in the Arab/Muslim world or anywhere else.

And I've never ever told you how to feel-nobody would be crazy enough to do that and I have far too much respect for you to try such a stupid thing. We're just two people exchanging posts on the Internet-I couldn't impose anything on you if I wanted to.

It's just that you and I disagree on a few issues(mostly, I'm more progressive than you on those issues, but whatever). Nothing I post here can do you any harm or in any way oppress or disrespect you.

Yes, they have rallies like this all over the world...and several have been posted here. Are they also "unworthy" of news?

" Chanting "Israel is better! Israel is better!" is a waste of time and doesn't help LGBTQ people in the Arab/Muslim world or anywhere else."

And who is doing this? By even mentioning the pride rally, it magically morphs into what you claimed?!

"And I've never ever told you how to feel-nobody would be crazy enough to do that and I have far too much respect for you to try such a stupid thing. We're just two people exchanging posts on the Internet-I couldn't impose anything on you if I wanted to."

Yes, you have! I have explained this to you, and by your claiming this, you are now telling me again as well as attempting to insult me.

"Nothing I post here can do you any harm or in any way oppress or disrespect you."

The first two, no, but the last one, you already have.

ETA: Unlike you, I am actually gay, have you ever considered listening to me, instead of telling me what is and isn't important in regards to LGBT issues?!

And it always sounds(if I've heard you wrong, sorry)as if you think that antisemitism and homophobia are the only forms of oppression that matter-or, at the least, that all other forms of persecution are of far lesser importance. The concept of universalism and solidarity with all who are oppressed don't appear(unless I've got you wrong)to be of any real importance to you.


Antisemitism and homophobia are vile and all decent people struggle against those crimes-but so is the oppression of indigenous peoples, of Africans and African-Americans, of Roma-and of Palestinians. To be truly anti-oppression, a person has to oppose ALL oppressions, and not place them into a hierarchy of importance. People who argue that some oppressions matter but others don't don't really care about ending oppression at all.

And yes, it does occasionally get mentioned that other cities and other countries have such rallies...but those who mention the rallies in other places don't usually do so in order to take people's minds off of other issues-nor is there anyone using that to argue that those rallies vindicate everything the governments of the countries where those rallies take place. You might mention the Tel Aviv event just because you think it's a cool thing-but we both know that's not why AIPAC mentions them and why Netanyahu and his mob mention them. Don't be naive.

And I do listen to you-it's just that usually, you don't say much other than to say that other people have guessed wrong about you. If you'd actually engage me or other people in this thread and if you'd actually, as a general rule, make a real argument for whatever views you do hold, it would be far less likely that people would say the kinds of things that you dismiss as "not listening". Just treat the rest of us with respect, ok?

"And it always sounds(if I've heard you wrong, sorry)as if you think that antisemitism and homophobia are the only forms of oppression that matters-that all other forms of persecution are of far lesser importance."

You should be sorry, but I expect such insults.

"Antisemitism and homophobia are vile and all decent people struggle against those crimes-but so is the oppression of indigenous peoples, of Africans and African-Americans, of Roma-and of Palestinians. To be truly anti-oppression, a person has to oppose ALL oppressions, and not place them into a hierarchy of importance. People who argue that some oppressions matter but others don't don't really care about ending oppression at all."

I have addressed all of these issues on a number of occasions, so your continued insult that I only care about Jews and gays is noted.

"And yes, it does occasionally get mentioned that other cities and other countries have such rallies...but those who mention the rallies in other places don't usually do so in order to take people's minds off of other issues-nor is there anyone using that to argue that those rallies vindicate everything the governments of the countries where those rallies take place. You might mention the Tel Aviv event just because you think it's a cool thing-but we both know that's not why AIPAC mentions them and why Netanyahu and his mob mention them."

There you go again, dismissing LGBT rights! The article doesn't "take the mind's off anything" it is to place the "mind's of others" on something...GAY PEOPLE! The article isn't by AIPAC or Netanyahu, is it?! No, it is by the Associated Press. The article is true! It is the largest gathering in a region that is homophobic. That is important; it is NEWSWORTHY. It would be as newsworthy if Pyongyang, North Korea had any march. Should it be ignored because of their atrocities or policies?

"Don't be naïve"

Once again, you are telling me, a gay person, what I should or shouldn't know in regards to LGBT issues. If, as you claim, you are "concerned" about LGBT rights, then you shouldn't use the announcement of a Gay Pride Parade in Israel as a launching ground for "discussing" the occupation; it is the inverse of the very thing you and those like you accuse "pinkwashers" of doing.

Although, to listen to you, the struggle has basically been won in Israel, so nobody takes any real risks by attending a LGBTQ rally in Tel Aviv and having such a rally is no more important than having one in Portland or the Castro.

The fact that you assert something like the slur you just made against me does not mean no one has the right to question the assertion. A person doesn't have to accept the argument that homophobia and antisemitism are worse forms of oppression than all others just to prove that they believe in fighting passionately against those forms of oppression. The vast majority of us on DU whatever our views on the I/P issue, are just as committed to fighting homophobia and antisemitism as you are.

And I've never insulted you. You reject the idea that other groups have comparable(even if not equivalent)levels of suffering.
You've dismissed the histories of oppression other groups have suffered as not as bad as the oppression you've suffered. Maybe you give lip service to it, but you always act as if other groups have never had it as bad as the groups you've identified with(and yes, the groups you are in have been treated horribly-but you'd have to acknowledge parity of suffering among the indigenous and among people of African ancestry). It would not harm the causes you stand for in the slightest to acknowledge that others can be oppressed just as deeply.

(to be very clear...no, I don't personally claim to have equality of oppression in my heritage, or anything close to it, so please don't make the assumption that that's where I was going with that).

And you took part in the accusations that Bernie Sanders doesn't care about fighting bigotry-accusations you KNEW were lies from the start.

Yes, the region is homophobic(as was Israel itself until about twenty years or so ago, in case you've forgotten). But a rally in Tel Aviv can't do anything whatsoever to help LGBTQ people in any of those other countries. No Arab or Muslim country is ever going to change for the better because of anything Israel does. If anything, emphasizing the Israeli position on the issue actually sabotages LGBTQ activists(and there are a lot of the, working under impossible conditions)in the Arab/Muslim world. The last thing they need is for the rulers of their countries to be able to falsely tie the LGBTQ cause to Israel and Zionism. They need to be able to make the case that establishing LGBTQ rights would not be a victory for either Zionism or "western imperialism". They need to be able to make the case that those rights are being demanded from below, by the people who actually live in the society-that is the only chance of defeating homophobia in the Arab/Muslim world.

And in the context of the I/P issue, it doesn't matter whether or not the Arab/Muslim countries are worse than Israel on this issue, because the argument is not being made that those countries should "win" and Israel should "lose"-and because nobody here is an apologist for what those surrounding countries do to their own people(almost all of us supported the Arab Spring, which was the closest the Arab/Muslim world has come to having a democracy movement-and which offer hope for the future that the Arab and Muslim peoples, on their own, from below, will create a democratic and progressive future for themselves, without U.S. military intervention, and that the whole stereotype of the Arab/Muslim world as an unchangeable hellhole is simply bullshit). It also doesn't matter because Israel isn't occupying the West Bank and expanding the settlements in the name of social liberalism or any form of human liberation whatsoever-it's occupying those lands

Let's work for liberation for all, from all form of oppression, because all forms of oppression are equally wrong and equally important to fight. OK? Is that too much to ask?

It hasn't been won. Didn't read the article, did you? The article wasn't just about the march being important in the region, but also the strides yet unmade.



Slur?! What slur? I have never made any assertion that homophobia or anti-Semitism are worse forms of oppression, you simply keep accusing me of it, without a lick of proof. You are just as committed as me and other gay people in fighting homophobia?! Really?! How presumptuous.



You just did it again! You keep telling what my believes and feelings are.

You continue to insult me with your false accusations:



Do you even have a lick of proof of the accusations you are making? No, you simply have a "wall of words" making one false accusation after another; one insult after another, and pretend you are speaking the truth.



No, what you were doing is making accusations against me despite not being gay!



Really? I would love to see links to that accusation!



There you go again! Telling what I do and don't know about LGBT issues! You don't ask, you TELL me, what I know or what I have "forgotten." The fact you make such a stupid comment as "If anything, emphasizing the Israeli position on the issue actually sabotages LGBTQ activists(and there are a lot of the, working under impossible conditions)in the Arab/Muslim world." demonstrates the privilege dripping in your posts. What are we supposed to pretend LGBT rights aren't important because of how bigots may react? This isn't about how Arab/Muslim GLBT go about achieving equality in their countries; that is their responsibility and they know what they are doing!



More "whataboutery". The topic is LGBT rights. The topic is a pride parade in a region where they are uncommon, even illegal. The topic is not about the occupation.



I have no problem with fighting for liberation, I have a problem when MY equality is DISMISSED as NOT NEWSWORTHY! Are you familiar with "white privilege?" If so, then perhaps you should familiarize yourself with "heterosexual privilege!"

Last edited Sat Jun 13, 2015, 06:20 AM - Edit history (1)

And it doesn't do anything to help LGBTQ people "in the region".

I support LGBTQ rights just as much as you do.

Again, any proof it doesn't help LGBT people in the region? ANY PROOF?!

BTW...link to my supporting accusations against Sanders?

Ken Burch: And you took part in the accusations that Bernie Sanders doesn't care about fighting bigotry-accusations you KNEW were lies from the start.

How would you know?

It would be stupid for me to imply that the issue affects both of us in the same way. Obviously and naturally, it's far more personal and direct for you.

It was a reference to commitment.

I was speaking out in support of gay rights in high school in the late Seventies(made it an issue as a candidate in a mock election), when saying anything against homophobia meant having people assume you were gay(I didn't care that they did, but that had an effect on a lot of people).

Wasn't as much of a risk to me as to you, but still, I was in whatever way I could be before it was cool.

You've suffered much more oppression than I ever will, and I don't diminish any of that. All I've said in this thread is that referencing this issue in relation to Israel is not, in many cases, actually about the LGBTQ cause at all(that was the point the Canadian LGBTQ group Queers Against Israeli Apartheid were trying to make in their long-time struggle to keep marching in the Toronto Pride Parade). To you, it is, but you can't seriously tell me you're unaware of the use Netanyahu and AIPAC make of this issue. There's no reason supporters of any right-wing government anywhere would be natural allies of the LGBTQ cause-the right-wing in any culture is always the most religious-fundamentalist section of the society in which it works, and religious-fundamentalists everywhere, in ALL religions, are implacably anti-gay-and always will be. The only reason apologists for a government based in that part of the spectrum(as opposed to yourself)would ever use the fact that their country is gay-friendly(something no right-wing party anywhere can ever take credit for, obviously)is as a distraction from other issues. Do you really not see how this is used by Likud and AIPAC to try to make the case that the Occupation doesn't matter, that the settlements don't matter, that all of that is somehow justified by the country's progressiveness in this one area? That's why I said "don't be naive"-not as an insult, but simply to point out that you should be aware of this use of your cause by people who don't actually care about you. Co-optation is an old story in politics-and that's what's happened here.

My pointing that out doesn't disrespect you or your experience in the slightest. I think you do understand it at a basic level, but you think that admitting the way the issue is used in this context means "giving aid and comfort to the enemy".

The reason I don't think making a big deal about covering the Tel Aviv pride rally helps LGBTQ people in the rest of the region is that, quite frankly, the worst way to help people fighting for any progressive cause in those countries is to use Israel as an example. When that is done, it allows the regimes to imply that the LGBTQ cause is somehow linked to Israel and to Zionism-which is just what those regimes need to do to justify suppressing it. And from what I've seen, LGBTQ people in Israel, for the most part(other than some true heroes like Ezra Nawi) have not stood in solidarity with Palestinian LGBTQ people-possibly out of the belief that expressing any empathy with any Palestinians, even Palestinian gays somehow "endangers Israeli security". This needs to change. It is the best strategy in all situations for all oppressed groups to align with each other, to fight for each other's freedom-that's the only way change comes.

You obviously are unfamiliar with my posts. Of course, that is painfully clear.

And yet, you have.



No, you have said much more than that in this thread!



You got that one right!



And, once again, telling me what I know! Basic level?! Really?



So, cater to the bigots?

BTW...still waiting for proof of my attacks on Sanders.

Don't give the bigoted forces in the Arab/Muslim world things to work with, things that help them keep in power. No Arab or Muslim gay, nor any other Arab or Muslim, can ever be helped or liberated by anything the Israeli government does. The Occupation can never build the LGBTQ rights movement in the West Bank(no Palestinian LGBTQ people, and no Israeli Arab LGBTQ people, have EVER defended the Occupation or the illegal settlements).

Be in solidarity with Arab/Muslim gays on the terms they wish you to be...don't denounce the regimes from outside in a "we of the 'superior West' are entitled to look down on your whole region with disdain" tone of voice. That's all I'm saying on that.

I didn't tell you what you know. I offered my views on what I believe that you know. I'm not inside your head.

I've supported and spoken out for LGBTQ rights for almost forty years now(at far less risk than you, obviously, but in full support and full passion in whatever way I could).

And your responses to my posts in that thread were part of the right-wing, HRC-orchestrated smear on Bernie's anti-oppression record. Your attacks on me there(totally unprovoked, since I'd said nothing there that was in any sense an attack on you or the LGBTQ cause before you jumped in)were in support of the smears on Bernie as not being anti-oppression just because he didn't mention bigotry in one speech(never mind that he'd been working against all forms of bigotry on the grassroots level since at least 1962 or so by then). You KNEW full well, based on his record, that Bernie had proven himself on the causes of homophobia, sexism, and racism with his activism and then his perfect anti-oppression voting record in the House and Senate, but you never once called bullshit on the HRC cabal who were unjustly demonizing the man. And you picked away at me just because I didn't say everything exactly the way you wanted it said(even though I was always in full agreement with you on the need to fight bigotry and personal oppression).

I'm not going to link to that thread, because I find it psychologically traumatic to re-read any of it. But you remember the one I'm talking about.

That is catering to the bigots! What an ABSURB remark: No Arab or Muslim gay, nor any other Arab or Muslim, can ever be helped or liberated by anything the Israeli government does. The Occupation can never build the LGBTQ rights movement in the West Bank. Who has EVER claimed such a thing?



You did so....repeatedly.

"You might mention the Tel Aviv event just because you think it's a cool thing-" source

"You reject the idea that other groups have comparable(even if not equivalent)levels of suffering.
You've dismissed the histories of oppression other groups have suffered as not as bad as the oppression you've suffered." source

"I think you do understand it at a basic level, but you think that admitting the way the issue is used in this context means "giving aid and comfort to the enemy". " source



What thread?! This one? http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026673874 PROVE IT! There's the thread and my posts. Back up your claims!



Well, I did. Because, once again, NOTHING you have accused me of is remotely true!

why do you think gays in india , jamaica and many other places ask Obama to speak about the issue .

All I've said is that, in this one case, a relatively good situation for LGBTQ people is used by the government involved and its more rigid and inflexible apologists as a distraction from other issues and as an implicit argument that being gay-friendly vindicates what is done to Palestinians.

That's far from saying that LGBTQ rights don't matter.

So to have a celebration of over 100,000 people there is way more impressive as it would be in most other countries.

about israel and how there are some double standards .

you pointed out below that turkey has gay pride parades which i'm happy to hear. i can criticize the country on many things but that doesn't mean i will dismiss the positive of them having gay pride events .

There's a considerable difference between the borders before and after that event.

If they can't give at least the vast majority of the West Bank back to the Palestinians(and give it to them in a contiguous bloc of land)than I'd support a Belgian-style solution-not a totally single-state, but a federation(NOT an Israel-Jordan federation, which would be rejected by almost all Palestinians and thus intrinsically illegitimate)but a dual Israeli-Palestinian entity with Israeli and Palestinian legislatures and at the same time some sort of elected joint administration that would deal with all the areas in which the infrastructure is essentially unified.

But the "just wait" option...leaving the status quo as it is, with more "settlement expansion", a perpetual IDF presence in the West Bank and perpetual collective punishment of all Palestinians for the actions of the small number of violent extremists among them-is not a realistic option, and nobody has any right to ask the Palestinian people to accept this. nor is it possible in any way at all for "waiting" to ever produce a more democratic, less-violent and more open-minded Palestinian leadership(it certainly hasn't created that kind of leadership on the Israeli side).

And the Israeli assumption that "we can be trusted with power over them-but THEY can't ever be trusted even with power over themselves" has to be challenged and has to change. Peace can never be built on a standing insult to one side in the conflict.

A single state is not possible. We've seen too often how single states lead to despotism.

They can rewrite some of the settlements but it's a lot more complicated than "give us back our land" which is the major Palestinian requirement for a two state solution.

But it's simply not possible to get the vast majority of Palestinians to ever be open to the idea of making peace with Israel if the land remaining to them gets any smaller and more non-contiquous than it currently is.

Any deal that any Palestinian leadership agrees to must be something that they can present as a "victory". If Palestinians see themselves as being humiliated by an agreement, they will reject any leadership that agrees to it.

A single-state would be difficult, if not impossible-which is why any U.S. president must be firm in pressing the Israeli government to, at a bare minimum, permanently freeze the settlements at their existing size and population, must press for the restoration of much of the land that was taken from Palestinians(or compensation WITH APOLOGIES AND ADMISSION THAT WRONG WAS DONE if actual return of the land is not possible), and must press for real recognition of the suffering that Palestinians have experienced at the hands of the Occupation-because the current policies of the Netanyahu regime are clearly designed to make the establishment of a Palestinian state of any sort impossible, and to make such a state unsustainable if it does somehow come into being. Netanyahu still hasn't given up on "Eretz Yisroel", and he doesn't want the war to ever end-he CAN'T actually want it to end, because if it does, the Likud Party would also cease to exist.

Israel has a right to exist...but it does not have the right to prevent a Palestinian state from ever being created, or to ever, under any circumstances, invade such a state once it has been created. If Israel wants its sovereignty to be respected, it needs to give equal and absolute respect to Palestinian sovereignty as well.

Both peoples have equal roots in the land, and both need to learn to accept that.

That's fine. It's just something I wanted to embrace because I do support his position on this. I hope he can convince you about his position because I am failing here.

OR that most of the settlements should stay(all are reactionary, purely destructive, and pointless).

And I seriously doubt that he actually thinks that Palestinians should defer to Israelis on territory.

I didn't claim he totally agreed with me, but if he thinks the post-1967 boundaries are wrong, he doesn't back Netanyahu and the status quo either. And it puts him to the left of both Obama and HRC(both of whom pretty much parrot the Likud line).

He clearly agrees with me that the previous Green Line is untenable. Therefore he believes some settlements should stay, as do I, because it's difficult to get rid of them, some have existed for decades.

Only a contiguous bloc of land can be a viable Palestinian state.

Besides, does anybody believe Netanyahu's "land swaps" would give the Palestinians any land that was worth anything at all? Every acre of land in Israel proper is basically totally occupied at this point-there's nothing that could be swapped.

BTW, if Netanyahu and Co. were really willing to do actual "swaps", they wouldn't keep destroying harmless, innocent Bedouin villages in the Negev-villages they have no justification for demolishing, since nobody else even wants to live there.

And there is no valid substitute for East Jerusalem as the Palestinian capital(no other Palestinian cities have any real prestige to them and it's an insult to expect them to settle for that useless dead zone known as Ramallah).

Also, there needs to be an admission that Palestinians were deeply wronged in this, and apologies for the wrong. Most of them weren't anti-Jewish berserkers, they just wanted to not be driven out of their homes.

That means giving up even more of the West Bank which is the only logical conclusion. That's where things get complicated.

Israel has no legitimate actual claims to any part of the West Bank.

And it's not going to be possible for a Palestinian state to survive it it isn't contiguous.

You would agree that a Palestinian state needs to be contiguous and not broken up by large blocs of Israeli settlements, wouldn't you?

Take that as you will. Sanders does not support going back to the Green Line. I agree with him. That line is gone. Period.

The new line would likely look like a line that is separated by the largest contiguous but separated settlement line. ie, the largest blue area in this map: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement

With some concessions here or there to maintain a contiguous line (the bits of settlements in the far east probably conceded to the Palestinians in exchange).

Gaza should ideally be given in exchange, since it's an open air prison and should not in any way be a reasonable territory. That, or a tunnel could be built, but the PLA would probably be against it, since it'd open up a wave of migrants.

I stand here saying how I think territory should be rewritten, but that is really up to the Israeli's and Palestinian. Once they can recognize each other. The situation is far too complicated for a single person on a forum to write out. I am just giving a generalized view.

And I think Sanders would agree, since he does not support a reversion to the Green Line.

They have been fighting against it since 1948.

And it should be enough that they recognized the state-it's petulant and pointless for Netanyahu to demand that the recognize it "as a Jewish state", which was never something that Egypt or Jordan was asked to do when those countries signed peace agreements.

Nor has it ever been legitimate for the Israeli side in this dispute to try to dictate who the "Palestinian leadership" should be-they did that all through the Seventies and Eighties(when they were arrogantly obsessed with delegitimizing the PLO as the leadership)and all they ever achieved by doing that was to cause the rise of Hamas. Nothing at all could have been worse if the Israelis had recognized the PLO as the Palestinian leadership at the of Camp David and treated them from that time as an equal partner in the peace process.

There was never any possible alternative Palestinian leadership that would ever have accepted NOT getting a state-and certainly none that ever had any widespread grassroots support.

So forty years of stonewalling achieved nothing but creating the situation that currently obtains. And forty years of trying to cherrypick the Palestinian leadership has done nothing but to create the worst Palestinian leadership possible.

They control Gaza where 95% of the trouble is. We can debate all day about the mistakes BOTH sides have made over the last 65 years and who did what. But this is now 2015 and we have to deal with the situation as it is now.

as the Palestinian leadership. The Likud governments of the Eighties and early Nineties encouraged Hamas' growth as a way to weaken the PLO.

Would you agree that this strategy was inexcusably stupid? That no good came or could possibly have come of discrediting the PLO and attempting to replace it with something else?

There is no way to effectively "deal with the situation as it is now" by preserving the status quo in the West Bank and in continuing to immiserate Gaza.

Hamas is horrible, but it's impossible to militarily crush it...and no good would come of trying to(as last summer's war against Gaza proved).

Peace involves negotiating with the people you're actually at war with...not trying to choose who you'll negotiate with in the hopes of getting somebody who is malleable and therefore powerless to hold up their side of a deal.

That's the whole point here.

good guys and bad guys but they are surrounded by countries that are very slow to progress otherr than technologically .

I kinda don't like the APs stereotyping ignorance pandering headline .

that I'd love to snuggle up to a good looking long hair guy and call him "Lord"?

Neither are as large as the one in Israel, but they do occur.

And that's something we all want.

I was pretty much totally unaware of anything that goes on in Cyprus. You don't hear much about that place, ever(a bit of problem for any country in the region that doesn't act like it's somewhat insane on a regular basis). Turkey was also a surprise...it proves Muslims can be better than the West expects on this, and can do so on their own. Victories for hope in both places.

That's a great thing.

I am aware of our rights in many places and countries. It is important to me as someone who is gay!

It's possible to credit your experience and still respectfully disagree with you on some things(I don't disagree with you whatsoever on LGBTQ issues).

All things you said to me!

Those were just arguments, made from one equal human being to another, on an issue of the day.

I am.

ETA: I am not implying I am more equal to you, but that I am NOT an equal in regards to the US.

That doesn't mean they all have it as easy. It just means all are of equal value and worthy of equal respect and dignity.

While we are all of equal value, we aren't treated as such; like myself and my husband!

That's not something I've ever disputed. I'm on your side on everything on LGBTQ issues and in the fight against antisemitism. Always have been, always will be.

All I said was that we are of equal value as human beings-as is everyone else. There's a big difference between saying that and pretending that Utopia has been established.


My theory is that you don't want to accept that I'm a person of good will because I'm not as deferential to you as you might like. I respect you...I know you've gone through many levels of pain in life and continue to go through many such levels...I just don't believe that a discussion should end simply because you proclaim what you believe to be the last word on the matter. But then, I don't take that attitude towards anybody else, so it's nothing personal.


And the struggle against all forms of oppression needs to go on until full equality for all in all ways is achieved.

we should just wait for them to do it on their own ? but when it comes to other issues like israel settlements you think people should say something ?

What I'm saying is that what Israel does isn't going to lead to them getting treated better in the Arab/Muslim world, and that it damages the LGBTQ cause in the Arab/Muslim world to tie it to people's feelings about Israel or about taking sides in the Israel/Palestine dispute.

You would agree, I hope, that keeping the IDF in the West Bank and building more illegal settlements there is never going to help Palestinian gays.

and that doesn't mean i'm dismissing their horrible treatment of gays. the same is true with credit to israel for gay rights doesn't mean i support everything.

My point has simply been that most of those who reference Israel's position on LGBTQ issues(unlike yourself)don't do so with purely benign intent.

The Israeli government has consciously used the tactic of pointing up gains by the LGBTQ community there(most won over the implacable opposition of the Likud and most of the rest of the Israeli right)as a form of "points-scoring" in the debate on the I/P question. This is tremendously unfair to the LGBTQ community in Israel...and it's inappropriate when used at all in the I/P debate-because nothing the Israeli government and the IDF do to Palestinians has ever been about protecting LGBTQ people from oppression or about helping Palestinian gays free themselves from oppression.

If there were more voices like those of Ezra Nawi, this would be a much more reasonable debate.

On 15 July 1974, the Greek military junta and its Greek Cypriot collaborators carried out a coup against the democratically elected president of Cyprus. Using this criminal act as a pretext, Turkey invaded Cyprus five days later. In a two-phase invasion in July and August, and despite calls by the UN Security Council [Resolution 353 (1974)] and the quick restoration of constitutional order on the island, Turkey occupied 36,2 percent of the sovereign territory of the Republic and forcibly expelled about 180.000 Greek Cypriots from their homes. Another 20.000 Greek Cypriots, who remained in the occupied areas, were also forced to eventually abandon their homes and seek refuge in the safety of the government controlled areas. Today, fewer than 500 enclaved Greek Cypriots remain in the occupied areas.

Turkey still deprives the displaced Greek Cypriots of their right to return to their homes and properties. This has given rise to appeals to the European Court of Human Rights, which has issued major decisions on Turkey’s violations of the European Convention.

In addition to the economic devastation caused by the invasion and the forcible population movement, over 3.000 persons were killed, while some 1.400 Greek Cypriots remain missing.

Turkey’s occupation brought economic ruin to the part of the island which prior to 1974 was the richest and most developed. Poor economic conditions resulting from Turkey’s mismanagement and Turkey’s systematic colonization of the occupied areas by illegal settlers forced Turkish Cypriots to emigrate to Europe and elsewhere. The settlers currently outnumber the indigenous Turkish Cypriots by about two to one. Independent observers have documented this issue for the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe in 1992 and again in 2003. Finally, there are still over 43.000 heavily armed troops from Turkey in the occupied areas. It should be noted that beginning with Security Council Resolution 353 of 20 July 1974, the UN has called for “an immediate end to foreign military intervention in the Republic of Cyprus,” and for “the withdrawal without delay from the Republic of Cyprus of foreign military personnel present otherwise than under the authority of international agreements.”

In violation of international law and UN resolutions, Turkey and the Turkish Cypriot regime have systematically attempted to eradicate the Greek cultural heritage in the occupied areas. Towns and villages have been given Turkish names, while archaeological sites, churches and cemeteries have been plundered, damaged or converted to other uses. In November 1983, Turkey instigated and endorsed a “unilateral declaration of independence” in the occupied area by the Turkish Cypriot leadership. The so-called “Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus” (“TRNC”) has not been recognized by anyone other than Turkey, which exercises virtual control over it. UN Security Council resolutions 541 (1983) and 550 (1984) categorically condemned this unilateral action, declared it invalid, called for its withdrawal, and called on all UN member-states not to recognize this illegal entity. The EU and other international and regional organizations have adopted similar positions. For all legal and political purposes, the international community recognizes only the Republic of Cyprus created in 1960 and its government, even though the government cannot currently exercise its authority in areas under military occupation by Turkey.

Legal decisions by regional and national courts in Western Europe, in the United States, and in the United Kingdom provide an important independent record of the consequences of Turkey’s 1974 invasion and its continuing occupation of Cyprus. They also affirm the legitimacy of the Republic of Cyprus and of its government. These decisions constitute an important foundation for any future comprehensive settlement of the Cyprus problem.

http://www.moi.gov.cy/moi/pio/pio.nsf/All/6F5DD418DD053ED1C2256D6D001E7571?OpenDocument

You should take all that up with Henry Kissinger, who did all he could to keep the Turks in Cyprus and prevent the conflict from coming to a formal end there, just because Turkey is a NATO member and Greece isn't.

What I meant was that Cyprus has largely been out of the world news since 1979 or so.