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muriel_volestrangler

(101,426 posts)
Mon Jun 22, 2015, 12:20 PM Jun 2015

Greece spells out terms for debt crisis 'breakthrough'

Source: BBC

Greece's economy minister has spelled out the terms of new proposals to end deadlock on its debt crisis, amid hopes a deal can now be struck this week.

It includes new taxes on businesses and the wealthy, Giorgios Stathakis told the BBC in an exclusive interview.
...
But eurozone finance ministers said they were not given enough time to study them for a proper assessment, amid confusion over different versions of the Greek proposals submitted.

Speaking after the meeting, Mr Dijsselbloem described the proposals as "broad and comprehensive", but said work was needed to check they added up "in fiscal terms".


Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33228119



He detailed Greece's new money-raising proposals. These include:
1) A new tax on businesses
2) A new tax on the wealthy
3) Some increases in the VAT rate on selected items.

But he said that his Syriza government, led by Alexis Tsipras, had avoided crossing its red lines.

So, he said, there would be no further reductions in pensions or public-sector wages. And there would be no increase in VAT on electricity.

He also said that the government had agreed with the IMF and eurozone governments that the targeted budget surplus would be 1% of GDP or national income this year, 2% next year and 3% the year after.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33223879
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Greece spells out terms for debt crisis 'breakthrough' (Original Post) muriel_volestrangler Jun 2015 OP
IT is easy. Just tax the Banksters till you have all the money they want. Vincardog Jun 2015 #1
Then banks either pass it on to consumers or go under cosmicone Jun 2015 #4
The Banksters have preverted the system and already burned it all down. They should go broke and be Vincardog Jun 2015 #6
What institutions will replace the banks? You can't burn everything all down and start over cosmicone Jun 2015 #9
Every state should have its' own bank. Go to the credit union to cash your paycheck and run your Vincardog Jun 2015 #10
How much profit is "legal" in your opinion? cosmicone Jun 2015 #11
In unregulated crony capitalism, a chosen few become winners and everyone else is guaranteed of Vincardog Jun 2015 #17
"Targeted budget surplus would be 1% of GDP this year, 2% next year, and 3% the next." forest444 Jun 2015 #2
Define trillions... whatthehey Jun 2015 #5
That figure excludes stocks, corporate paper, and many other dollar-denominated securities. forest444 Jun 2015 #7
Your second paragraph MFrohike Jun 2015 #19
EU's Tusk says Greece has made 'first real proposals in weeks' Bosonic Jun 2015 #3
Greece has to cut exorbitant wages, benefits and pensions cosmicone Jun 2015 #8
yes we wouldnt want anyone to have a living wage would we? nt msongs Jun 2015 #12
This is not about a living wage. cosmicone Jun 2015 #13
You're demanding more cuts to their pensions? muriel_volestrangler Jun 2015 #14
What a great republican idea! eom sadoldgirl Jun 2015 #15
Greece needs to get out of the Eurozone... roamer65 Jun 2015 #16
Um, what? MFrohike Jun 2015 #20
I think this sounds like they have a deal. DCBob Jun 2015 #18
 

cosmicone

(11,014 posts)
4. Then banks either pass it on to consumers or go under
Mon Jun 22, 2015, 01:04 PM
Jun 2015

Either way, the consumers are screwed. Nice plan.

Banks are a necessary evil but their investors are entitled to some profit. If you stripped all the incentives, there would be no banks and we'll be back to bartering.

Vincardog

(20,234 posts)
6. The Banksters have preverted the system and already burned it all down. They should go broke and be
Mon Jun 22, 2015, 01:10 PM
Jun 2015

Replaced by institutions that provide some value to society.

 

cosmicone

(11,014 posts)
9. What institutions will replace the banks? You can't burn everything all down and start over
Mon Jun 22, 2015, 01:35 PM
Jun 2015

Such views give progressives a bad name.

As much as banks have the power and gouge consumers, all one can do is strictly control the gouging. If the banks disappeared, how will you get a paycheck? How will you pay your bills? How will you purchase anything? Banks are an essential part of modern life.

(Unless you want to move to Alaska with a hunting knife, kill a reindeer and cook it on open fire while living in a cave. Then you absolutely don't need a bank.)

Vincardog

(20,234 posts)
10. Every state should have its' own bank. Go to the credit union to cash your paycheck and run your
Mon Jun 22, 2015, 01:44 PM
Jun 2015

Checking account. The too big to fail parasites need to be broken up and their illegal "profits" clawed back.

 

cosmicone

(11,014 posts)
11. How much profit is "legal" in your opinion?
Mon Jun 22, 2015, 02:21 PM
Jun 2015

Will the state have enough money to buy the infrastructure of networks, branches, ATMs etc. from the banks? I think you'd prefer just confiscating it since the bankers are all evil and the investors can afford to lose the money. The problem is that a lot of pension funds of ordinary people are invested into bank stock.

There is no abject socialism where everyone wins. There will always be winners and losers. At least, under capitalism, the winners and losers are transparent and everyone has a chance at becoming a winner. In socialism, a chosen few become winners and everyone else has a chance at becoming a loser with no transparency at all.

Vincardog

(20,234 posts)
17. In unregulated crony capitalism, a chosen few become winners and everyone else is guaranteed of
Mon Jun 22, 2015, 07:49 PM
Jun 2015

being a loser with no transparency at all.
I don't want to limit "Profits" I want to end Gambling with account holders money.
I want to end institutions too big to regulate.
I want to end the Banksters propensity to write the regulations they want and elect the politicians to enact them.
If you want to dispute any of my wants go ahead but don't use straw man arguments or put words in my mouth.

forest444

(5,902 posts)
2. "Targeted budget surplus would be 1% of GDP this year, 2% next year, and 3% the next."
Mon Jun 22, 2015, 12:51 PM
Jun 2015

In other words: do exactly the opposite of what FDR did to pull his country out of the Great Depression. And remember that Greece has nearly 30% unemployment, with its GDP having collapsed over 30% in the last 5 years - conditions almost exactly like those FDR faced in 1933.

Imagine if China decided to recall its trillions in U.S. paper, displaced the dollar as the world's reserve currency (who would accept them after news like that), and demanded as a condition for a bailout that we run 3%-of-GDP ($500 billion) surpluses from now on. What do you suppose would happen to the economy after an imposition like that?

forest444

(5,902 posts)
7. That figure excludes stocks, corporate paper, and many other dollar-denominated securities.
Mon Jun 22, 2015, 01:13 PM
Jun 2015

And God only knows how much that is by now. Enough to cause a Mad Max-like existence for most people if they (God forbid) ever decided to recall them.

MFrohike

(1,980 posts)
19. Your second paragraph
Mon Jun 22, 2015, 08:51 PM
Jun 2015

If China decided to "recall" its trillions in "U.S. paper" in any manner not recognized by contract or law, they'd be told to go pound sand. The China debt boogeyman is tiring because it's completely ridiculous. The Congress could appropriate the necessary money to pay off their U.S. debt holdings with a simple majority if they chose. That's not conjecture, that's fact. There is no external constraint on the power of the US Government to create dollars. Given that, the China debt myth is ridiculous.

If China was stupid enough to try for reserve currency status, I say let them. It's nothing but a goddamn drain on our actual productive capacity. All reserve currency means is that you keep the world flowing with dollars so they can send them back here and make Wall Street rich. It used to be tied to the dollar recycling mechanism that underlaid the rebuilding of the world economy after WW2, but now it's just a farce. Besides, the Chinese simply won't do it. Why? The renimibi would have to appreciate a hell of a lot as a result. It's bad policy to mix an appreciating currency with a mercantilist trade strategy.

Greece is capitulating because the people don't want to leave the Euro, despite the cost, and because Syriza are a bunch of rank amateurs when it comes to negotiating and governing. They've sat on their hands at home for almost 6 months while Tsipras and Varoufakis have consistently run their heads in the brick wall of pure power politics. They chose to forego their most likely sources of leverage, credibly threatening a Grexit and/or undermining EU sanctions against Russia. I'm not commenting on whether those things are right or wrong. I'm stating that by giving them up unilaterally, their only hope was to beg the Troika for help. Given the track record of thuggery by the Troika and its associated powers over the last few years, this was lunacy.

Bosonic

(3,746 posts)
3. EU's Tusk says Greece has made 'first real proposals in weeks'
Mon Jun 22, 2015, 12:52 PM
Jun 2015
EU's Tusk says Greece has made 'first real proposals in weeks'

Brussels (AFP) - EU President Donald Tusk said new reform offers made by the leftist Greek government ahead of a crunch summit aimed at sealing a debt deal are the first genuine step forward by Athens for weeks.

"The latest Greek proposals are the first real proposals in many weeks although they still need, it's obvious for me, the assessment of the (creditor) institutions and further work, of course," Tusk told reporters.

"But the most important thing is that the leaders take full responsibility for the political process to avoid the worst case scenario, which means uncontrollable, chaotic 'Grexident'," he said, using a term for an accidental Greek exit from the single euro currency.

Former Polish premier Tusk called the emergency summit of the 19 eurozone leaders last Friday after talks between finance ministers from the currency union broke down without a deal on Greece's bailout.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/eus-tusk-says-greece-made-first-real-proposals-164051792.html;_ylt=A0LEVkB9O4hVjXIA5MtjmolQ
 

cosmicone

(11,014 posts)
8. Greece has to cut exorbitant wages, benefits and pensions
Mon Jun 22, 2015, 01:30 PM
Jun 2015

or privatize state owned assets.

They can't have it both ways. Their economy cannot sustain both even taxing the wealthy at 100% doesn't provide enough cash.



 

cosmicone

(11,014 posts)
13. This is not about a living wage.
Mon Jun 22, 2015, 02:24 PM
Jun 2015

This is about some having it wonderful whilst rest of them starve. There just isn't enough money for everyone in their economy to have high salaries, gracious vacations and ability to retire with full pension at 50.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,426 posts)
14. You're demanding more cuts to their pensions?
Mon Jun 22, 2015, 02:32 PM
Jun 2015
If we look at at the absolute generosity of Greek pensions, Eurostat data tells us that in 2012 the total pensions expenditure per beneficiary for old-age persons was €16,036 in UK and €10,785 in Greece.
...
On average pensions have been cut by 27% in the four years to 2014 and for the highest earners they've halved.

In 2013 the Greek Finance Minister at the time, Yannis Stournaras, agreed to raise the retirement age by two years to 67.

Despite this, however, Greek men still retire at 63 and women at 59, according to Greek government data.

By comparison, in Germany, the average retirement age for those receiving an old age pension in 2014 was 64 years according to Reuters.

http://news.sky.com/story/1504923/greek-pensions-q-and-a-too-generous

They really have made savage cuts; and that has slashed their GDP. Their spending is not 'exorbitant'.

roamer65

(36,748 posts)
16. Greece needs to get out of the Eurozone...
Mon Jun 22, 2015, 06:04 PM
Jun 2015

...and tell Merkel to shove it up her a$$. The British had better be watching this escapade and vowing never to adopt the Euro. They should also vote to leave the EU. This is what happens when you cede your monetary policy to the Bundesbank (aka ECB).

MFrohike

(1,980 posts)
20. Um, what?
Mon Jun 22, 2015, 08:59 PM
Jun 2015

Greek wages have been depressed through the Troika's preferred policy of internal devaluation. It's amazing what 25% unemployment will do to the wage scale.

As for pensions, you're simply wrong. The Greek pension system is not a pension system like you think of it. I know this because you speak of benefits as being separate. Their pension system is used as a substitute for what we'd call social insurance, especially unemployment insurance. The real issue with their pension system is the propensity of people to retire early. Granted, it's understandable when dealing with 20+% unemployment, but Merkel and co. have successfully made an issue of it while failing to mention their own complicity in the entire affair.

It's not that Greece is innocent in this entire affair, it's that the Troika's policy is catastrophically bad. They are repeating the same mistakes of their past. It will not end well at all.

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