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Omaha Steve

(99,893 posts)
Tue Jul 21, 2015, 12:59 PM Jul 2015

18-year-old's video of gun-firing drone spurs investigation

Source: AP

CLINTON, Conn. (AP) — An 18-year-old Connecticut man may be in trouble with federal aviation officials after posting a video online that shows shots being fired from a drone that had been jury-rigged with a handgun.

The FAA said Tuesday it is investigating whether Austin Haghwout of Clinton violated its regulations, which prohibit the careless or reckless operation of a model aircraft.

Haughwout's father told WFSB-TV last week that his son created the drone with the help of a Central Connecticut State University professor. The 14-second video shows a four-propeller drone with a semiautomatic handgun strapped on top hovering as it fires four shots in a wooded area.

FULL short story at link.

Read more: http://bigstory.ap.org/article/47e01f7b976b4011800a9eeac4c19e5a/18-year-olds-video-gun-firing-drone-spurs-investigation

24 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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18-year-old's video of gun-firing drone spurs investigation (Original Post) Omaha Steve Jul 2015 OP
You knew that it was just a matter of time. Shadowflash Jul 2015 #1
Exhibit A Bosonic Jul 2015 #2
What the hell inspired that? Wilms Jul 2015 #3
Maybe, Charlene....?? xocet Jul 2015 #12
OK. That was pretty heavy. Wilms Jul 2015 #15
:) The Shit BadGimp Jul 2015 #19
Operation Aphrodite I would guess. LanternWaste Jul 2015 #13
It was only a matter of time. Hassin Bin Sober Jul 2015 #22
And just wait until the SCOTUS Helen Borg Jul 2015 #4
Hunting will never be the same again! Sancho Jul 2015 #5
The penalty for owning/constructing a weapon firing drone must be extremely severe not unlike the Purveyor Jul 2015 #6
More like a sem-automatic with a long range high-power scope - with night vision. Elmer S. E. Dump Jul 2015 #7
I want a law that charges one with stalking if they fly or video private property w/o notice. jtuck004 Jul 2015 #8
we have trespassing laws, 'open field' laws, airspace laws, stalking laws, peeper laws... Sunlei Jul 2015 #16
people don't own the sky lol, in fact, if the creek behind your house is "navigable" snooper2 Jul 2015 #20
That has been the law since the middle ages.... happyslug Jul 2015 #24
The use of things like this is limited to our Federal Government. mahannah Jul 2015 #9
probably should be a major crime to tie a gun on a drone..so we don't have crazy drone hunters Sunlei Jul 2015 #17
reply to my post. Already a few states have banned the use of canned hunts 'online' because Sunlei Jul 2015 #18
He shouldn't get in trouble Renew Deal Jul 2015 #10
When a block of C4 the size of a stick of butter Submariner Jul 2015 #11
oh crap, I haven't even saved enough yet for the camera drone I want and this moron will get drones Sunlei Jul 2015 #14
Not his first time in the news... Lancero Jul 2015 #21
I hate being right. onehandle Jul 2015 #23
 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
13. Operation Aphrodite I would guess.
Tue Jul 21, 2015, 03:08 PM
Jul 2015

Operation Aphrodite I would guess. I'd also guess that doesn't fit into the trendy pop-narrative, either.

Hassin Bin Sober

(26,370 posts)
22. It was only a matter of time.
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 08:59 AM
Jul 2015

Like George Carlin said about the invention of the flame thrower.


A guy says: 'Gee I sure would like to light those people over there on fire' ... Then he mentioned it to somebody handy with tools.

Helen Borg

(3,963 posts)
4. And just wait until the SCOTUS
Tue Jul 21, 2015, 01:10 PM
Jul 2015

Declares that drones are people! Then you won't be able to take away guns from them.

 

Purveyor

(29,876 posts)
6. The penalty for owning/constructing a weapon firing drone must be extremely severe not unlike the
Tue Jul 21, 2015, 01:34 PM
Jul 2015

penalty for owning a fully automatic machine gun without special permits.

The potential havoc these could cause is limitless, indeed.

 

Elmer S. E. Dump

(5,751 posts)
7. More like a sem-automatic with a long range high-power scope - with night vision.
Tue Jul 21, 2015, 02:01 PM
Jul 2015

If these thing start to proliferate, I'm moving to the Sun.

 

jtuck004

(15,882 posts)
8. I want a law that charges one with stalking if they fly or video private property w/o notice.
Tue Jul 21, 2015, 02:16 PM
Jul 2015

A neighbor is gathering data for your next burglary, btw. Or maybe just to see when your kids are home alone.

They don't need a gun. Better without it - then most people won't see it for the weapon it really is.



Sunlei

(22,651 posts)
16. we have trespassing laws, 'open field' laws, airspace laws, stalking laws, peeper laws...
Tue Jul 21, 2015, 03:23 PM
Jul 2015

those laws all apply.

 

snooper2

(30,151 posts)
20. people don't own the sky lol, in fact, if the creek behind your house is "navigable"
Tue Jul 21, 2015, 05:16 PM
Jul 2015

people can float by and take pictures all day long- Even if you own the property on the other side-

FREEDOM! LOL

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
24. That has been the law since the middle ages....
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 09:31 AM
Jul 2015

Last edited Wed Jul 22, 2015, 11:08 AM - Edit history (2)

In my home state of Pennsylvania, any Stream of water that does NOT Start on your property is a public highway. This follows English Common law and that has been the law for CENTURIES in England. Now, the Pa Fish and Boat commission takes the position that the test in Pennsylvania is Navigable use in the 1700s, i.e. could it been used by canoe? or even by foot? Recreational use today does not count, only if it could have been used in the 1700s by canoe or foot (this would excludes stream running down mountain sides, but not steams one could wade or pull a canoe up on). In most cases the difference between these two positions is meaningless but I do mention the difference. Please remember in either case it is trespassing if you step outside the stream bed.

http://www.fishandboat.com/water/public/faq_public_waters.htm

http://fishandboat.com/anglerboater/2000/00julaug/lehicort.htm

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/pa-superior-court/1414406.html

http://www.flyfishohio.com/who_owns_the_river.htm

Texas has a similar rule, but it is technically restricted to "The waters of public navigable streams are held by the State in trust for the public, primarily for navigation purposes.” Carrithers v. Terramar Beach Com. Imp. Ass’n, 645 S.W.2d 772, 774 (Tex. 1983)

https://tpwd.texas.gov/publications/nonpwdpubs/water_issues/rivers/navigation/riddell/ownershipofbeds.phtml

Please note, In Pennsylvania, the stream is a public highway, the land UNDERNEATH the stream, is owned by the land owner UNLESS it is clear by the deeds the stream is NOT part of his property (i.e.the deed say the land extends to "the edge of the creek" that means his property ends at the creek bank and thus does NOT own the land underneath of the creek),

On the other hand, it appears Texas laws says such streams are always the property of the state for that was the law under Spanish Civil law. Texas has granted some exception to that rule, relating to oil rights, but that had to do with oil rights NOT use of the stream of water for any other purpose. Texas also uses the term "perennial streams" in its laws, which implies streams of water that almost never run dry. Most of the land involving grants of land prior to 1837 never included such streams for under Spanish Civil Law, even the river beds under such streams remained the property of the state (Under Spanish Civil Law, when one purchased land, it was only surface and water rights, mineral rights remained with the King, this rule does not seemed to have survived in Texas, except as to river beds, after 1837).

Texas further defined navigable waters as any stream that averages 30 feet from bank to bank, even if the actual water flow is much smaller (and short distances of less then 30 feet between areas where the distance is wider then 30 feet still makes the river "navigable" i.e. the stream must be permanently less then 30 feet from bank to bank not just a small distance.

https://tpwd.texas.gov/publications/nonpwdpubs/water_issues/rivers/navigation/riddell/navigability.phtml#infact

I bring up Pennsylvania and Texas to show that what is "Navigable" varies from state to state, but the concept that such waters are public highways is universal in the US and has been since before the Settlement of this country. thus you need to research your state's laws to be on firm ground unless it is clear the water way you are using is "Navigable".

In fact prior to the 1890s, it was NOT criminal to trespass on someone's fields (It was criminal to enter any dwelling or the "close" of that dwelling, generally what we today would call the yard, but it was NOT criminal to cross someone's field or woodlot).

Now prior to the 1890s, it was a Civil Trespass to cross someone's field or wood lot or other non dwelling land, but the trespasser could only be held liable for any damage he or she did well trespassing.

This changed starting in the 1890s as an effort to keep Mother Jones out of the coal mine areas. Pennsylvania and other states expanded Criminal Trespass to any privately owned land that the owner put up "No Trespassing" signs on (New York State went as far to extend such criminal trespass to any entrance onto private property, posted or not).

These laws were anti-labor in intent and purpose but adopted in terms to sound like that was NOT the intent of the people who wanted these laws passed. Mother Jones worked around these laws by walking up a West Virginia Stream that ran through a coal area so she could talk to the miners. It was early spring/late winter and the water was cold, but she could NOT step out of the water for she would have been arrested for trespassing (and at the time she was in her late 50s early 60s). She was NOT Trespassing as long as she stayed on the public road which was the cold stream.

As to air rights over your land, that was decided in 1946 by the US Supreme Court to be federal property. See United States v. Causby, 328 U.S. 256 (1946)

If we look to North Carolina law, we reach the same result. Sovereignty in the airspace rests in the State "except where granted to and assumed by the United States".

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/328/256/case.html


The airplane is part of the modern environment of life, and the inconveniences which it causes are normally not compensable under the Fifth Amendment. The airspace, apart from the immediate reaches above the land, is part of the public domain. We need not determine at this time what those precise limits are. Flights over private land are not a taking, unless they are so low and so frequent as to be a direct and immediate interference with the enjoyment and use of the land. We need not speculate on that phase of the present case. For the findings of the Court.


No one has defined what those "immediate reaches above the land" remains the property of the landowner, but the above case indicates that even tree top level, as long as it does NOT cause actual "damage" to the land or buildings on that land, is NOT trespassing for that part of the airspace is public domain.

The FAA regulations states 500 feet is minimum safe flying height, but the law is to protect aircraft NOT to defined property rights, see 14 CFR §§91.126:

§91.119 Minimum safe altitudes: General.
Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes

(a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.

(b) Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft.

(c) Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.

(d) Helicopters, powered parachutes, and weight-shift-control aircraft. If the operation is conducted without hazard to persons or property on the surface—

(1) A helicopter may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed in paragraph (b) or (c) of this section, provided each person operating the helicopter complies with any routes or altitudes specifically prescribed for helicopters by the FAA; and

(2) A powered parachute or weight-shift-control aircraft may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed in paragraph (c) of this section.

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=bfdd417c8b61b54fed464cffef71eaaa&node=se14.2.91_1119&rgn=div8


Some other websites:

List of Oregon "Navigable" waterways:

http://www.oregon.gov/dsl/NAV/Pages/navigwaterways.aspx

New York Department of Environmental conservation and its position that it is criminal trespass to enter property even in absence of a "No Trespassing" sign:

http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/8371.html

Now, some rivers in Virginia were sold, when Virginia was a colony, to private land owners, and even through they are navigable, these are private:

http://midcurrent.com/conservation/virginia-anglers-sued-in-jackson-river-access-suit/

The "Floating log" test of Navigable waters in Michigan (and in many other states):

A navigable inland stream is (1) any stream declared navigable by the Michigan Supreme Court; (2) any stream included within the navigable waters of the United States by the U.S. Army Engineers for administration of the laws enacted by Congress for the protection and preservation of the navigable waters of the United States; (3) any stream which floated logs during the lumbering days, or a stream of sufficient capacity for the floating of logs in the condition which it generally appears by nature, notwithstanding there may be times when it becomes too dry or shallow for that purpose; (4) any stream having an average flow of approximately 41 cubic feet per second, an average width of some 30 feet, an average depth of about one foot, capacity of floatage during spring seasonal periods of high water limited to loose logs, ties and similar products, used for fishing by the public for an extended period of time, and stocked with fish by the state; (5) any stream which has been or is susceptible to navigation by boats for purposes of commerce or travel; (6) all streams meandered by the General Land Office Survey in the mid 1800's

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/Water97e_142928_7.pdf

Sunlei

(22,651 posts)
17. probably should be a major crime to tie a gun on a drone..so we don't have crazy drone hunters
Tue Jul 21, 2015, 03:25 PM
Jul 2015

to deal with.

Sunlei

(22,651 posts)
18. reply to my post. Already a few states have banned the use of canned hunts 'online' because
Tue Jul 21, 2015, 03:28 PM
Jul 2015

Already some 'mighty hunters' pay the big bucks to 'hunt online' and control the killing gun from the comfort of their computer chair.

Submariner

(12,516 posts)
11. When a block of C4 the size of a stick of butter
Tue Jul 21, 2015, 02:28 PM
Jul 2015

is flown into the White House foyer and exploded, then the laws will be changed.

Sunlei

(22,651 posts)
14. oh crap, I haven't even saved enough yet for the camera drone I want and this moron will get drones
Tue Jul 21, 2015, 03:12 PM
Jul 2015

banned for all of us

onehandle

(51,122 posts)
23. I hate being right.
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 09:12 AM
Jul 2015

A while back I made an argument that there was an intersection between gun culture and drones that would eventually bring regulations to both.

I was laughed at by gun trolls.

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