Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

herding cats

(19,569 posts)
Wed Jan 17, 2018, 06:37 PM Jan 2018

Pentagon Suggests Countering Devastating Cyberattacks With Nuclear Arms

Source: New York Times

WASHINGTON — A newly drafted United States nuclear strategy that has been sent to President Trump for approval would permit the use of nuclear weapons to respond to a wide range of devastating but non-nuclear attacks on American infrastructure, including what current and former government officials described as the most crippling kind of cyberattacks.

For decades, American presidents have threatened “first use” of nuclear weapons against enemies in only very narrow and limited circumstances, such as in response to the use of biological weapons against the United States. But the new document is the first to expand that to include attempts to destroy wide-reaching infrastructure, like a country’s power grid or communications, that would be most vulnerable to cyberweapons.

The draft document, called the Nuclear Posture Review, was written at the Pentagon and is being reviewed by the White House. Its final release is expected in the coming weeks and represents a new look at the United States’ nuclear strategy. The draft was first published last week by HuffPost.

It called the strategic picture facing the United States quite bleak, citing not only Russian and Chinese nuclear advances but advances made by North Korea and, potentially, Iran.


Read more: https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/01/16/us/politics/pentagon-nuclear-review-cyberattack-trump.html

21 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Pentagon Suggests Countering Devastating Cyberattacks With Nuclear Arms (Original Post) herding cats Jan 2018 OP
Targeting keyboards with nukes? underpants Jan 2018 #1
Yep, theyre proposing mass killings for potential acts of a skilled hacker. herding cats Jan 2018 #2
I heard it was just some 400 pound guy in his parents basement underpants Jan 2018 #3
Ha! herding cats Jan 2018 #6
Or the 400 lb hacker sitting on a bed! BumRushDaShow Jan 2018 #4
Indeed! herding cats Jan 2018 #7
I'm horrified -- BUT RandomAccess Jan 2018 #20
Oh, the threat is definitely real. No arguments there. herding cats Jan 2018 #21
Does this policy also include hacking public early warning systems? EarthFirst Jan 2018 #5
Theyre gonna nuke cyberspace? C_U_L8R Jan 2018 #8
This is insane Matthew28 Jan 2018 #9
Good grief! PatSeg Jan 2018 #10
How uhh... balanced! How umm... measured! truthisfreedom Jan 2018 #11
Oafkeepers have been salting themselves in the Military since Rumsfeld. haele Jan 2018 #12
Why a nuke when there are EMP-generating non-nuclear bombs? moriah Jan 2018 #13
Because those aren't as much fun, of course. AtheistCrusader Jan 2018 #15
This is terrifying. n/t TygrBright Jan 2018 #14
Oh, that's wonderful.... paleotn Jan 2018 #16
Please read The Doomsday Machine by Daniel Ellsberg shadowmayor Jan 2018 #17
Mueller, we need you to ... GeorgeGist Jan 2018 #18
Cyber warfare does present an interesting question, though: What is an act of war? Oneironaut Jan 2018 #19

herding cats

(19,569 posts)
2. Yep, theyre proposing mass killings for potential acts of a skilled hacker.
Wed Jan 17, 2018, 06:45 PM
Jan 2018

Just imagine if the hacker is skilled enough to make it appear the intrusion came from one of their own enemies?

 

RandomAccess

(5,210 posts)
20. I'm horrified -- BUT
Wed Jan 17, 2018, 10:56 PM
Jan 2018

I'm pretty sure we're not talking about a lone "skilled hacker," or even if we are, a sustained and lethal attack on our infrastructure.

Imagine the entire grid going down. For weeks.

Imagine our nuclear facilities sent offline. All of them. At once.

Imagine JUST the internet down, almost permanently.

Imagine -- far less damaging, frankly -- false Hawaii-style alerts everywhere, all at once.

Imagine our water systems taken down -- all of them.

We've already caught Russia noodling around some of these things.

Russia-linked hackers are infiltrating the US power grid: report
Their unprecedented penetration could spell chaos.

By Zeeshan Aleem@ZeeshanAleemzeeshan.aleem@vox.com Sep 6, 2017, 1:50pm EDT
https://www.vox.com/world/2017/9/6/16262198/hackers-us-power-grid-russia

“This is the first time we’ve seen this scale, this aggressiveness, and this level of penetration in the US, for sure,” Eric Chien, technical director of Symantec’s Security Technology & Response Division, told BuzzFeed News.


The threat is quite real, IMO.

herding cats

(19,569 posts)
21. Oh, the threat is definitely real. No arguments there.
Wed Jan 17, 2018, 11:10 PM
Jan 2018

It’s simply their proposed solution isn’t a viable solution. There are methods that may be viable, but nuking other countries isn’t one of them.

Also, what if they choose to belive a spoofed location to create a situation (which under this administration wouldn’t shock me.)?

This isn’t the solution to the problem. Working first to secure or infrastructure and using a tech based approach to this problem is the way to go.

Nuking China, Russia, Iran or South Korea would be suicide.

haele

(12,692 posts)
12. Oafkeepers have been salting themselves in the Military since Rumsfeld.
Wed Jan 17, 2018, 07:36 PM
Jan 2018

First, it was to supposedly protect Christianity and the Constitution from the threat of Muslim Jihad and the slippery slope of the 1st Amendment that could allow the Muslims and Liberals to take over and steal guns, bibles, Christian Manhood, and also impose Sharia Law. The Cheney administration encouraged these fools as willing weapons for the Oil-oligarchy's plan to expand U.S. corporate interests. Christianity was nothing but a tool for Cheney and his Cabal. Especially the Oafkeepers with their the "React-Kill" mentality.



The Oafkeepers really ramped it up when Obama became President to "save the military from the heathen ruining our country", actively recruiting aimless young white males as a bulwark against diplomacy and the perceived "liberalism" known as sane logic. The lessons of the 1960's and the 1980's have been lost on leadership; time to relearn it.

Haele

moriah

(8,311 posts)
13. Why a nuke when there are EMP-generating non-nuclear bombs?
Wed Jan 17, 2018, 07:39 PM
Jan 2018

I mean, I could see the point of feeling if the only way to stop something like that was to shut down the computers.

Which an airburst to create an EMP certainly would do.

But it's not necessary to use nukes to create that effect.

paleotn

(18,012 posts)
16. Oh, that's wonderful....
Wed Jan 17, 2018, 08:07 PM
Jan 2018

Of course they're not fully taking into account the fact that finding out exactly WHO did the hacking can take days, weeks or even months. And even then, many times we're no where near 100% sure who's responsible. So why not just go off half cocked and run the risk of nuking the wrong people. Kill thousands and thousands of innocents. Smart. Real smart. Anyone who could accomplish something of this nature already knows all this, so it's obvious to them that we're full of shit. Such stupid, empty threats may make it more probable that a hack of this nature IS carried out.

shadowmayor

(1,325 posts)
17. Please read The Doomsday Machine by Daniel Ellsberg
Wed Jan 17, 2018, 09:02 PM
Jan 2018

If you want a clear picture of the madness surrounding the use of these weapons - this book gives a great history of our "thinking" and reliance on first-strike intimidation tactics.

More proof we're all just monkeys on a mud ball and we'd better learn how to get along with each other or else.

Oneironaut

(5,541 posts)
19. Cyber warfare does present an interesting question, though: What is an act of war?
Wed Jan 17, 2018, 10:13 PM
Jan 2018

Using cyber attacks to crash the stock market?
Melting down a nuclear power plant (or several)?
Completely destroying a nation's infrastructure electronically, killing millions and crippling its economy?

While a nuclear attack does seem a bit much, putting a threat out like this does make some sense. A nation might believe, "I can attempt to wreak havoc on the US's infrastructure without any consequences, because it's not technically an attack!" Cyber warfare could potentially do as much damage as a nuclear bomb if properly executed, so it makes sense to treat it as another act of warfare.

Latest Discussions»Latest Breaking News»Pentagon Suggests Counter...