N/t

N/T

(No Trump)

they should not have allowed commercial flights to take off from that airport because of an anticipated strike from the US.

The Mango Menace is a POS and should be in prison, but this is on Iran for allowing that plane to take off during heightened tensions.

His actions led to the events that caused this accident, but it is the fault of the Iran military. Even there, I attribute little blame. These things happen, as Iran knows only too well, since the American military shot down their civilian aircraft in 1988.

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-01-10/crash-may-be-grim-echo-of-us-downing-of-iran-flight-in-1988

had Trump not decided he needed a distraction from his upcoming impeachment trial.

they shouldn't have allowed commercial flights to take off from IKA, this is on the Iranians and the commander of the AA defense unit for giving the order to launch.

alert without Trump's provocation; therefore, this tragedy would never have happened.

The bottom line is that Iran should have shut down commercial air traffic, if they had done so, then this tragedy would not have happened.

Iran had the moral upper hand in this confrontation, but they threw it away with this unintentional shoot down, and then lying about it for a couple of days despite the overwhelmingly evidence that it was one of their missile batteries that launched.

I sure wouldn't want to be the commander or personnel of that missile battery.

It's definitely Trump's fault. I appreciate them taking responsibility. That's leadership. I feel so sorry for all the families.

I still have this feeling that there's more to this story. Iran is taking responsibility for accidentally shooting down the plane. But reports also mentioned the plane veered off course. Why. I want to know more. I hope the media will keep digging.

Is to blame. Trump has done a lot of awful stuff. But he didn’t make Iran shoot down a plane. They did it themselves.

It's at least partially his fault, if not completely.

There's plenty to blame Trump for without making a laughingstock out of oneself by blaming him for this. Just plays in to the right wing's belief "Those liberals blame everything on Trump".

If this escalation had taken place under a Democratic administration, and an airliner had been shot down under the exact same circumstances, no one here would be blaming a Democratic President. Meanwhile, the right-wingers would be loudly and vociferously blaming that hypothetical Democratic President.

trump broke the peace

Yes, Iran accidentally shot it down which means that they finally DID tell the truth, unlike our "dear leader" and his 15,000+ lies. It also shows that the Iranians don't have as much control of their military (people and weapons) as we had thought they did.

Long line of cause and effect. People stop when it's convenient or when it's advantageous.

If somebody had said, "You know, we have our anti-aircraft folk on high alert near an international airport, dja think maybe there might be aircraft in the area" there'd have been a different set of instructions given to somebody--the AA sites or the airport.

If Iran hadn't chosen that time for their missile strike, there would have been no heightened, um, paranoia, then and there.

If no embassy attack, if there hadn't been increased attacks on US/NATO bases over the last 2-3 months, if an American hadn't been murdered by an Iranian proxy, if the Saudis' civilian infrastructure hadn't been targeted by Iran and Iranian military proxies, if Iran hadn't taken to messing with ships in the Gulf, I don't see why Soleimani would have been targeted.

Ultimately, the people that did it were the people that did it. We can find excuses for all sorts of things, but excuses are a weak way to shift responsibility for what somebody actually did.

We still have the "it's intentional but it's unintentional" tension that we resolve in the same way. The upper levels were almost certainly uninvolved in the decision (although that might still be plausible deniability at work). The lower levels of the same organization certainly intended for that particular plane to be shot down. The lower levels didn't intend for a passenger plane to be hit. Sometimes the higher ups are absolutely responsible for making sure their subordinates don't do something wrong and bear guilt for the bad things done down in the ranks; at other times, the buck stops anywhere else.

Haven't seen the ayatollah's wording for admission that he was incorrect. Did he take the hit for speaking too soon and being wrong in his unconditional, absolutely true announcement? Maybe learn a bit of humility as befits, oh, I don't know, a low-level rank-and-file believer, even if you'd expect the standards for an ayat to perhaps be a bit higher?

....and I'll point out the USS Vincennes shooting down Iran Air Flt-655 in 1988 gets blamed 100% on the US even though the ship was there due to Iranian attacks on commercial tankers in the Gulf.

I don't blame Iran for the shootdown then and I don't blame the US for the current one. In the end countries are 100% responsible for the actions of their militaries irregardless of what is going on.

USS Stark was hit by the Iraqi air force, lots of confusion at that time. Its not like the United States was bored and blew a commercial airliner out of the sky.


In 1984, the war between Iraq and Iran had expanded to include air attacks against oil tankers and merchant shipping of neighboring countries, some of whom were providing aid to Iraq by shipping Iraqi oil. The Flight 655 incident occurred a year after the Iraqi Air Force attack on the U.S. Navy guided-missile frigate USS Stark on 17 May 1987, which killed 37 American sailors. U.S. naval forces had also exchanged gunfire with Iranian gunboats in late 1987, and the U.S. Navy guided-missile frigate USS Samuel B. Roberts had struck an Iranian sea mine in April 1988. Two months before the incident, the U.S. had engaged in Operation Praying Mantis, resulting in the sinking of the Iranian frigate Sahand. Tensions were therefore high in the Strait of Hormuz at the time of the incident with Flight 655.

But for Trump's pigheaded aggression, this would not have happened

I am for not demonizing Iran. Stirring up hate and having to have an “enemy” is so 19th Century.
I wonder why China, Russia and Iran and Syria are labeled as “enemies”. I question the whole concept. They are simply actors in international trade, folks. I question the idea of having enemies and wars.

I feel that way about groups of people. I dislike demonizing all Trump followers, for example, and am uncomfortable with the label of 'deplorables'. I draw the line though, at neonazis, child molesters and serial killers; they are all demons.

99% of us are a mix of good and bad with lots of in between, and how we act is often dependant on what point we are at in our lives and the influences around us.

It would have been nice if he'd been honest from the start, but that is not how that particular regime runs its show.

it's hard to deny video proof

And with knowledge of Iranians weapons systems, many had surmised that these would probably have been Tor missiles that are part of a fully automated system, so prosecuting 'those responsible' may be a little bit of scapegoating.

It should also be considered that the closing of airports is unusual unless that airport suspects an attack. It is normal for airports to stay available and for airlines to decide - under advisement with their countries governments and agencies - whether it is safe to travel into or through the airspace of a particular country or region.

While it's possible the airline could be accused of taking a gamble, it should also be noted that it was a particularly short chain of events that led to Iran arming its missile defences, especially since Trumps first strike was made without warning any allied or NATO countries that the USA was about to ignite a pretty heated firestorm

Clearly it was a mistake. It might make families (and other nations) feel better to think someone will have to pay for what happened.

This flight was the 10th to take off from that airport that morning, as it turns out.

...seems like a bad idea.

Last edited Sat Jan 11, 2020, 02:52 PM - Edit history (1)

Trump bad- Iran good, everything is his fault. No other narrative need apply no matter how stupid that makes the person so speaking look. Get with the program.

....shooting down Iran Air Flt-655 in 1988 was 100% the US's fault, regardless of what Iran was up to at the time.
Apparently that only works one way...

Whatever Iran and Iraq wish to do within their own borders, or to/with each other is none of our business

Many of those borders were drawn by the British well over a century ago specifically to increase regional strife so as to make maintaining empire easier. Same thing they did in Africa, draw two nations, with parts of two different tribes in each, with lines ignoring traditional demarcations, to make sure that the natives are at each other's throats.

...and China will step in and smack Iran if they try and stop Gulf traffic since a large portion of their oil comes thru the straights.

From serving as Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff under Presidents Ronald Reagan and George H. W. Bush, to being the ambassador to the United Kingdom under President Bill Clinton. It wasn't because he saw them the same. He hated having to be the front guy for that BS story that Carlucci had him sell.

but, in true Russian style, set to fire as a default

First they have hundreds of casualties from the Soleimani funeral trampling and then they show the world that they mean business by blowing up some outhouses in Iraq and top it off with shooting down a plane full of people completely uninvolved in the hostilities on a flight that originated in Iran. What a bunch of fucking morons.

After all that shit Rouhani was talking about IR655 they go and pull this dumbassery...

Whatever good will and moral upper hand they had, they literally blew it out of the sky and then lied about it for 3 days, despite the overwhelming evidence against them.

I wonder where the commander of that missile battery is now?
It might behoove him to think about a very rapid exit, stage left, from the country if he isn't already in custody or dead.